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Is it the greedy investment bankers, the creators of highly leveraged and esoteric investments that nobody understood, speculators, disreputable mortgage companies, just who do we blame?

To be sure there is enough blame to go around and those fellows driving off from a failed company in a limo are easy targets and many certainly deserve what they get (or don’t get as the case may be), but if you want to see the real culprit

Americans should collectively look in the mirror. :yh_cry

Let’s go back to the late1960s and early 70’s when things started to change. We began to think we deserved it all and could have it all, we were told women were unfulfilled and should seek careers and many did. For those who were married it meant more money for the family to spend, bigger houses with all the accoutrements. Because this created more demand, the working wife went from an individual choice to a necessity for many families and they too demanded more and bigger of everything, they drove the economy for years and years, the snowball was rolling.

To keep the momentum going, to keep up with the Joneses if you will, families began to buy houses that stretched their budgets (I remember going to a friend’s large luxurious house¦with no furniture, a dining table would come next year we were told. A house was no longer a home and some people thought it a necessity to buy a bigger one every few years, after all the value kept rising.

Because we needed ever more stuff to put in the larger home and to play with, we began to tap our home equity and instead of paying down a mortgage, we added to it. Our house was no longer a home but an ATM.

When that didn’t work sufficiently we used credit cards to maintain our standard of living, the snowball kept rolling. Our idea of living within our means meant meeting the monthly minimum payment on our Visa card. :rolleyes: Today the average American debt is $120,000 and the average savings rate is zero. Household wealth and net worth are dropping.

With the ever growing value of homes generated by ever growing demand, there appeared no reason to not buy a house whether one could afford it or not, a worse case scenario would mean we still make a few bucks if we had to sell, right?

Certainly all this buying and accumulation of stuff with someone elses money kept the economy humming, creating jobs and more demand, but it was a house of cards that has now come tumbling down. In other words, we were living beyond our means, not an especially complicated concept. :-2

Have we learned our lesson, probably not, but that may not matter because the price of getting us out of the mess we are in will require massive higher taxes of all kinds for years to come and that will hit the middle class regardless of what a politician tells you.

It’s time to stop crying about the people who took advantage of us and start owning up the fact that we created this mess with our own brand of personal greed. X-boxes, 200 CDs, cable TV and a cell phone are not necessities and neither is granite counter tops and leased cars you could not afford to buy. :-5

Hey Quinn

Is that as high as you plan to go with that poll? I had more then that on credit cards when my daughter got married a few years ago.. I've told them they aren't allowed to have their first fight until after I'm debt free....

No credit cards. Cash on the barrel is my motto.

JAB;990139 wrote: I pay my traditional credit cards off every month. I have a credit card that I use to access my home equity LOC that I use strictly for home repairs like a new roof, new water main etc.


I need to hook you up with some contractors I know JAB:wah:

JAB;990143 wrote: Are they good looking? :-3

They'll have to wait until next year - 3 major repairs in one year is enough. :rolleyes:


Hey babes, hubs off that line:wah: But you can have one of his single guys. And he's a looker and funny:wah:

You guys should try the thrift stores. I get all my kids clothes from there. They have stores for kids, teens and adults. Different stores of course. But, it's a bargain in these times.

Everything was just fine until a Monk broke his vow of poverty. It was the straw that broke the camel's back.

gducks

I love thrift stores

I have time to flip thru racks & buy major expensive brand names from 2 -$ 6.00.

I don't need anything - but as I flip thru - OMG this is a must have for $4.00.

I'm completely done with my Christmas shopping..

the only thing financed is my house & 1 card that gets paid off immediately.

I don't try to compete with the Jones next door.

so I guess there's 2 middle class's

1 that lives within their means

1 that keeps up with the Jones - only the best will do & have to have attitude...

Example: we went out to dinner tonight

I was just amazed how many kids kids kids out to dinner with mom & dad.

How in the world can a family of 4 go out to eat at a steak house and afford that dinner - plus school clothes, school supplies and christmas is around the corner.???

you know damm sure as I'm writing this it's all on plastic.

there inlies the problem America - plastic - credit from where - oh boy..

Patsy

Yes I tend to sympathize with what you are saying Quinn, and its not just an American phenomenon, its a Western one. Its the ultimate consequence of the uncontrolled ethos of the "consumer society" where we have essentially made everything a function of shopping and celebrity.

Certainly that has been a cultural trend, and also its the result of essentially turning over our nations interests to commercial companies, the rational being that it has been easy to keep the populations happy by allowing them to gorge themselves on sex, shopping, and celebrity; and people sated on trivialities tend not to ask too many hard questions about the important things in life, (i.e. who is paying and who is gaining).

I'm not saying its a conspiracy, just the end product of general trend in evidence since probably the early 70s as you say, but definetly the early 80s. Hence the commercialization, sexualization, and trivializing of almost all aspects of commerce, culture, and our personal lives. Unfortunately for the spoiled decadent people of the Western democracies life is about to get very real, very fast, whether we have the character collectively as societies to deal with this remains to be seen.

Its my view that the lifestyle we have adopted has been unsustainable for a long time, and its only been through the money being lent to us by Asia (produced on the back of the labour of chinese peasants, and arabian oil) that we have been able to maintain it. That has ended now, and the consequences are going to be stark indeed for the west. These decades of profilgacy are now going to haunt us for many years to come, it will probably take a generation (at least) to overcome.

This rescue package does seem to have temporarily stabilized a collapsing financial system, but the money has still been wasted and the debts accrued have simply been passed from the financial system into public ownership in the States at least (it is likely that Britain is also going to have to contemplate something similar, the Continental European Nations are not in quite as bad a financial position). The consequences of this are going to be a severely weakened currencies, impoverished public finances, and serious disruption to the political system. I really think this marks a turning point in history, probably the point at which the West finally lost its unquestioned dominant position in the world, and we have done it to ourselves.

You appear to be unfamiliar with the word "regulator", Quinn. That's the oversight mechanism on what legislators deem permissible within markets. Legislators caused the economic crisis when they failed to regulate adequately. Legislators are now in the process of causing the next and larger economic crisis by back-remitting the market consequences of the lack of adequate regulation.

I think Quinn that you have to admit that the unholy alliance that has been going on between politics and corporate interests in the States has brought much of this about. This semi-religious belief in the unquestionable ability of the unfettered almost unregulated market to deal with all life's problems has struck a pretty significant rock. The body politic now needs to re-establish the rule of the law over business and end this self-regulation nonsense (which of course means no regulation).

Also, if anyone thinks that this situation is one without very very serious consequences for the US as a whole, as well as the other Western nations, unfortunately they are mistaken. These follies and the measures that are going to be needed to overcome them are going to put our political systems under the most severe tests of confidence they have had since the period of the second world war. It is that serious, I don't mean to sound melodramatic, but it is the truth I assure you. It takes a while to digest the full scale of what has happened.

flopstock;990092 wrote: Hey Quinn

Is that as high as you plan to go with that poll? I had more then that on credit cards when my daughter got married a few years ago.. I've told them they aren't allowed to have their first fight until after I'm debt free....


I had an acquaintence who spent nearly a $100,000 on a wedding and the couple were divorced within a year, so you may be ahead of the game.

Scrat;990106 wrote: I just went on a shopping spree myself to buy some new stuff I need to replace for winter, a coat, underwear some jeans ect and a few tools. I put it on the credit card and including lunch the total came to $312. The balance will be back to zero monday at midnight.

Who should be punished? I don't know either, if you think about it we should all be more careful though and I do not believe we have learned anything. As soon as it gets better we will return to our old ways. If it gets better.


Oh, it will get better, but the key is whether or not people are positioned to weather the storm. Those hardest hit by their own foolishness and those unfortuante to get caught up by losing their jobs may not recover for a very long time. And, those who are a few years from or just entering retirement are going to have a very tough time for many years.

JAB;990139 wrote: I pay my traditional credit cards off every month. I have a credit card that I use to access my home equity LOC that I use strictly for home repairs like a new roof, new water main etc.


I sure hope the interest rate is fixed on that and that you never put your home at risk regardless of the use of the card.

Clint;990179 wrote: Everything was just fine until a Monk broke his vow of poverty. It was the straw that broke the camel's back.


Yes, but then they learned to make jelly, gather honey, make wine and beer and sell all that stuff to tourists who are on a trip that they put on their credit card...or home equity line of credit. :driving:

Galbally;990202 wrote: Yes I tend to sympathize with what you are saying Quinn, and its not just an American phenomenon, its a Western one. Its the ultimate consequence of the uncontrolled ethos of the "consumer society" where we have essentially made everything a function of shopping and celebrity.

Certainly that has been a cultural trend, and also its the result of essentially turning over our nations interests to commercial companies, the rational being that it has been easy to keep the populations happy by allowing them to gorge themselves on sex, shopping, and celebrity; and people sated on trivialities tend not to ask too many hard questions about the important things in life, (i.e. who is paying and who is gaining).

I'm not saying its a conspiracy, just the end product of general trend in evidence since probably the early 70s as you say, but definetly the early 80s. Hence the commercialization, sexualization, and trivializing of almost all aspects of commerce, culture, and our personal lives. Unfortunately for the spoiled decadent people of the Western democracies life is about to get very real, very fast, whether we have the character collectively as societies to deal with this remains to be seen.

Its my view that the lifestyle we have adopted has been unsustainable for a long time, and its only been through the money being lent to us by Asia (produced on the back of the labour of chinese peasants, and arabian oil) that we have been able to maintain it. That has ended now, and the consequences are going to be stark indeed for the west. These decades of profilgacy are now going to haunt us for many years to come, it will probably take a generation (at least) to overcome.

This rescue package does seem to have temporarily stabilized a collapsing financial system, but the money has still been wasted and the debts accrued have simply been passed from the financial system into public ownership in the States at least (it is likely that Britain is also going to have to contemplate something similar, the Continental European Nations are not in quite as bad a financial position). The consequences of this are going to be a severely weakened currencies, impoverished public finances, and serious disruption to the political system. I really think this marks a turning point in history, probably the point at which the West finally lost its unquestioned dominant position in the world, and we have done it to ourselves.


Exactly right on all counts. I remember talking to my wife many times over the last several years about friends and neighbors who were buying new houses, buying this or that, remodeling and we weren't. I kept telling her that given our income it was unlikely these people could afford something we could not and that it was all going to come falling down sooner or later. I didn't realize the extent to which I was more right than wrong.

And talk about national debt, we have no idea how exposed the US is. China alone holds one trillion dollars in US bonds and if we think that kind of obligation is not going to influence US foreign policy we are really kidding ourself, especially given we are going to need China, Japan and the Mid-East to buy ever more our our debt. The US has sold its soul and I for one am scared of the future. The rest of my fellow citizens should be too.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;990388 wrote: Exactly right on all counts. I remember talking to my wife many times over the last several years about friends and neighbors who were buying new houses, buying this or that, remodeling and we weren't. I kept telling her that given our income it was unlikely these people could afford something we could not and that it was all going to come falling down sooner or later. I didn't realize the extent to which I was more right than wrong.

And talk about national debt, we have no idea how exposed the US is. China alone holds one trillion dollars in US bonds and if we think that kind of obligation is not going to influence US foreign policy we are really kidding ourself, especially given we are going to need China, Japan and the Mid-East to buy ever more our our debt. The US has sold its soul and I for one am scared of the future. The rest of my fellow citizens should be too.


I give up! If it comes crashing down no one will ride the storm out untouched. The thing that hurts our economy the most is fear. Yes, things are a mess and yes, maybe the market should be allowed to sink or swim on its own but the fact is the market is now a world market and the U.S. is part of it. It is also a fact that he U.S. economy no longer operates seperate from government. Government is a part of the economy and until (if) the economy cannot be repaired with tax dollars that's the way it will be.

There isn't any backing away from the fact that government and the economy are locked together. We may as well hope for the best and if that means we use tax dollars to buy bad debt to be sold when the market conditions are better then we may as well accept it and hope for the best. Rubbing our hands together will only make us look nervous. :guitari

Galbally;990218 wrote: I think Quinn that you have to admit that the unholy alliance that has been going on between politics and corporate interests in the States has brought much of this about. This semi-religious belief in the unquestionable ability of the unfettered almost unregulated market to deal with all life's problems has struck a pretty significant rock. The body politic now needs to re-establish the rule of the law over business and end this self-regulation nonsense (which of course means no regulation).

Also, if anyone thinks that this situation is one without very very serious consequences for the US as a whole, as well as the other Western nations, unfortunately they are mistaken. These follies and the measures that are going to be needed to overcome them are going to put our political systems under the most severe tests of confidence they have had since the period of the second world war. It is that serious, I don't mean to sound melodramatic, but it is the truth I assure you. It takes a while to digest the full scale of what has happened.


Next thing is you'll be hearing a conspiracy theory about how it was all a jewish banker /communist conspiracy to bring down western civilisation-hang on we've already had that one haven't we? must be muslim banker/communist conspiracy.

Scrat;991245 wrote: The que is forming up. Fick this, we DON'T bail out foreign banks this is beginning to make no sense. I suspect they know how our political system works and their lobbyists will have their wants and needs put into the bill and it will get signed off because we have no choice.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/busin ... ceIIQ9Dx8A


Actually they are incorporated in the united states so they were American while paying company taxes but now they're not when it suits? As you know doubt are well aware they have to comply with all the US regulations. The US has always been a bit ambivalent about things anyway, wanting to control things at home but complaining when their companies can't do what they like abroad. You can't have it both ways you either trade in a free market and accept rthe consequences or you don't.

But if you feel that way about go ahead, personally I think the european banks should walk away if you take that attitude and start looking elsewhere. Leave american subsidiaries to go out of business and cut their losses. At least it might help prevent UK banks and the like being dragged down as well. Course it might mean all your foreign creditors start to worry about the long term effect on your economy and call in all the outstanding debt. Then if opec decides to stop trading oil in dollars you will really be stuffed. The american economy is very important but people can adapt surprisingly quickly when they have to.

posted by quinns commentary

And talk about national debt, we have no idea how exposed the US is. China alone holds one trillion dollars in US bonds and if we think that kind of obligation is not going to influence US foreign policy we are really kidding ourself, especially given we are going to need China, Japan and the Mid-East to buy ever more our our debt. The US has sold its soul and I for one am scared of the future.




Should be easy enough to find out surely? After all it's not some big secret is it?

It's a british bank taking over lehmann's so maybe they should think again?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 37560.html

In the UK it's quite clearly the widely held view that the government and the banks that have caused all this. Once the effect sinks in and people realise how it is affecting them the government will pay the price at election time.

Oh yes and these guys think we're all stupid. When it comes right down to it Governments and the voters control banks and call them to account not the other way round. Maybe they hope we've forgotten where the real power lies i'e with the voters.

http://www.moneymarketing.co.uk/cgi-bin ... dte=220908

qsducks;990094 wrote: No credit cards. Cash on the barrel is my motto.


Us also. Oscars Bank :guitarist:guitarist:guitarist

[QUOTE=Galbally;990202] the rational being that it has been easy to keep the populations happy by allowing them to gorge themselves on sex

QUOTE]

When and where galbally? I missed out there. Was it just Ireland?

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;990049 wrote: Is it the greedy investment bankers, the creators of highly leveraged and esoteric investments that nobody understood, speculators, disreputable mortgage companies, just who do we blame?

To be sure there is enough blame to go around and those fellows driving off from a failed company in a limo are easy targets and many certainly deserve what they get (or don’t get as the case may be), but if you want to see the real culprit

Americans should collectively look in the mirror. :yh_cry

Let’s go back to the late1960s and early 70’s when things started to change. We began to think we deserved it all and could have it all, we were told women were unfulfilled and should seek careers and many did. For those who were married it meant more money for the family to spend, bigger houses with all the accoutrements. Because this created more demand, the working wife went from an individual choice to a necessity for many families and they too demanded more and bigger of everything, they drove the economy for years and years, the snowball was rolling.

To keep the momentum going, to keep up with the Joneses if you will, families began to buy houses that stretched their budgets (I remember going to a friend’s large luxurious house…with no furniture, a dining table would come next year we were told. A house was no longer a home and some people thought it a necessity to buy a bigger one every few years, after all the value kept rising.

Because we needed ever more stuff to put in the larger home and to play with, we began to tap our home equity and instead of paying down a mortgage, we added to it. Our house was no longer a home but an ATM.

When that didn’t work sufficiently we used credit cards to maintain our standard of living, the snowball kept rolling. Our idea of living within our means meant meeting the monthly minimum payment on our Visa card. :rolleyes: Today the average American debt is $120,000 and the average savings rate is zero. Household wealth and net worth are dropping.

With the ever growing value of homes generated by ever growing demand, there appeared no reason to not buy a house whether one could afford it or not, a worse case scenario would mean we still make a few bucks if we had to sell, right?

Certainly all this buying and accumulation of stuff with someone elses money kept the economy humming, creating jobs and more demand, but it was a house of cards that has now come tumbling down. In other words, we were living beyond our means, not an especially complicated concept. :-2

Have we learned our lesson, probably not, but that may not matter because the price of getting us out of the mess we are in will require massive higher taxes of all kinds for years to come and that will hit the middle class regardless of what a politician tells you.

It’s time to stop crying about the people who took advantage of us and start owning up the fact that we created this mess with our own brand of personal greed. X-boxes, 200 CDs, cable TV and a cell phone are not necessities and neither is granite counter tops and leased cars you could not afford to buy. :-5


Speak for yourself Quinn. You may have done this but the average American did not. Many foreclosures are due to job losses or unexpected life changes. And now the homeowner can't sell the house and also can't afford the payments DUE TO JOB LOSS OR LIFE CHANGES. I am sure that SOME people acted irresponsibly, but most did not. This is propaganda from the banksters who would like to shift blame away from their corrupt activities.

And um not too many people have 200 CD's....maybe you do. I notice you have a comcast email....bet you have cable and dsl. Kind of wasteful. But just because you do it does not mean everyone does.

we gave up credit cards for good over 4 years ago. Don't own any and never will again.

Hoss;1021127 wrote: I'm 18, in college, and live with my parents and I get 5 offers for credit cards in the mail every week. :-3


another reason I think all credit card companies are evil! :wah: They want to get people stuck into debt from a young age.