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Two Cultures

Two generations ago CP Snow authored the book “The Two Cultures, which identified the two cultures to be ‘literary intellectuals’ (humanities) and natural scientists. He constructed the problem in this way:

"I have been present at gatherings of people who, by the standards of the traditional culture, are thought highly educated and who have with considerable gusto been expressing their incredulity at the illiteracy of scientists. Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is about the scientific equivalent of: Have you read a work of Shakespeare's?"

This is considered to be the equivalent of asking: “can you read? My point is that the gap between the two cultures today is as wide as it was when Snow drew attention to it two generations ago. At one time in the past this divide might have been considered to be bridgeable by the two cultures; I suspect that is not a possibility. I think it is not a possibility because both cultures have been co-opted by industry.

Our intellectual cities are filled with skyscrapers of narrowly specialized knowledge; all owned by corporations. We have only highly specialized intellectuals focusing ever more narrowly on a specialty that will gain high pay with bonus or life-long tenure with high paying grants.

Corporations will never allow this specialization to cease and so we must find another way if we hope to retake our lives from the grasp of corporations.

A Ritual To Read To Each Other

If you don't know the kind of person I am

and I don't know the kind of person you are

a pattern that others made may prevail in the world

and following the wrong god home we may miss our star.

For there is many a small betrayal in the mind,

a shrug that lets the fragile sequence break

sending with shouts the horrible errors of childhood

storming out to play through the broken dyke.

And as elephants parade holding each elephant's tail,

but if one wanders the circus won't find the park,

I call it cruel and maybe the root of all cruelty

to know what occurs but not recognize the fact.

And so I appeal to a voice, to something shadowy,

a remote important region in all who talk:

though we could fool each other, we should consider

lest the parade of our mutual life get lost in the dark.

For it is important that awake people be awake,

or a breaking line may discourage them back to sleep;

the signals we give, yes or no, or maybe

should be clear: the darkness around us is deep.

-William Stafford

Good post!

Our (USA) educational system prepares us to get a good job, which means specialization. If we wish to become part of both cultures, which is a very good idea, then we must become self-actualizing self-learners when our school daze are over.

Did you know that you've used that 'school daze' statement in 12 seperate threads on this very forum? I'm impressed.

Yes- but it's a lot to catch up on - I'll tell you.

But the more complicated question for those kids is 'where to start?'

I'm guessing that your 'school daze' ended with a shock Coberst? :-3

Little U.S Dreamer;991713 wrote: Yes- but it's a lot to catch up on - I'll tell you.

But the more complicated question for those kids is 'where to start?'

I'm guessing that your 'school daze' ended with a shock Coberst? :-3


Actually my school daze slowly evolved. I continued going to classes at night and slowly evolved from being teacher driven to being self-actualizing self-learner. It was only after this evolution was complete did I begin to really understand what my schooling taught me.

The place that I started was one afternoon in 1981 while reading a book on the Vietnam war I asked my self a question that started the whole process. This question led me into a study of our Civil War which led me into a question about the "mind of the South" which led me to a question of why we humans do as we do and can we do better? That led me to the question... We start the process by asking a significant question about something that holds meaning for us.

This question led me into a study of our Civil War which led me into a question about the "mind of the South" which led me to a question of why we humans do as we do and can we do better?


This from a guy who had the entire basis of his rather lengthy post on the civil war called thoroughly into question and then failed utterly to address a single issue or objection that other posters had.

I think your 'school daze' needed to last a few more years, you don't seem to actually know what 'discussion' and 'debate' mean.

But that is a poster's choice whether they chose to inspire, debate, or just chat about a topic. I tend to not waste my time communicating with those I see as 'non-communicative' or 'ignorant'

I just pretend their posts do not exist. Unless you get one of those random crazy people who are just bored and refuse to put thought into anything.

So far this site doesn't seem to have any big problems with this... it's the hacking posters that cause serious problems really. (Had a site have this problem for 6 months. NOT FUN.):mad:

JAB;992933 wrote: My guess would be that coberst is looking more to inspire then to discuss and/or debate.


You are one of the few who has recognized this possibility. I think that much is required from the this new generation and inspiration is called for.

You need to try it in the form of a music video if you want to break though. *lol* maybe that shouldn't be funny but... Reality rarely is without some dark and morbid humour bases in a human... I claim diverse styles of humour.

coberst;993162 wrote: You are one of the few who has recognized this possibility. I think that much is required from the this new generation and inspiration is called for.


I think you need to actually be inspiring to inspire.

I also think that you need to maybe have a blog linked in your sig or something if all you want to do is inspire.

Discussion and debate forums are for *gasp* discussion and debate. If you aren't looking to discuss or debate you are simply in the incorrect place.

Devonin;993409 wrote: I think you need to actually be inspiring to inspire.



I also think that you need to maybe have a blog linked in your sig or something if all you want to do is inspire.



Discussion and debate forums are for *gasp* discussion and debate. If you aren't looking to discuss or debate you are simply in the incorrect place.
LOL. Do you get nosebleeds with it stuck in the air so far? Here's a suggestion: rather than pointing out a perceived problem without suggesting a solution, howsabout - oh I don't know - discussing the topic.



Maybe something like - now bear with me because I'm not so clever as you - Hey Coberst, what do you mean by 'mind of the South'? Do you think the old culture still hangs on today?

Accountable;993419 wrote: LOL. Do you get nosebleeds with it stuck in the air so far? Here's a suggestion: rather than pointing out a perceived problem without suggesting a solution, howsabout - oh I don't know - discussing the topic.



Maybe something like - now bear with me because I'm not so clever as you - Hey Coberst, what do you mean by 'mind of the South'? Do you think the old culture still hangs on today?


He's steadfastly ignored every single attempt I've ever made across more than one forum to actually engage him in discussion and debate. He basically already admitted that he's only here "to inspire" us instead of actually discuss things. SOunds like if anybody has anything stuck in the air, it isn't me. I'm actually interested in what people that aren't me have to say about something.

Accountable;993419 wrote: LOL. Do you get nosebleeds with it stuck in the air so far? Here's a suggestion: rather than pointing out a perceived problem without suggesting a solution, howsabout - oh I don't know - discussing the topic.



Maybe something like - now bear with me because I'm not so clever as you - Hey Coberst, what do you mean by 'mind of the South'? Do you think the old culture still hangs on today?


I think that the pre Civil War frame of mind still haunts the South.

I have been a self-actualizing self-learner for more than 25 years. It began to develop into a hobby in 1980 while reading a book on the Vietnam Civil War when I decided that to understand this civil war in Vietnam I must understand our own Civil War in the United States.

I have since that time read many books about this important part of our history. The most enlightening book that best answered my questions was the book “The Mind of the South by W.J. Cash. Cash says-- “With an intense individualism, which the frontier atmosphere put into the man of the South also comes violence and an idealistic, hedonistic romanticism. This romanticism is also fueled by the South conflict with the Yankee. Violence manifests itself in mob action, such as lynching, and private dealings.

One question that developed early in my reading was why the ordinary white citizen of the South was such a good soldier, superior to the Union soldier. Why did the ordinary southern man fight so valiantly to preserve slavery when he was not a slaveholder himself? This valiant southerner fought with very little comfort and support from the Confederacy because the Confederacy was a financially poor institution. The rebel soldier often did not even have shoes. The rebel soldier often had to find food on his own. Very little in the form of supplies were provided to the rebel army.

I have over the years discovered answers to my questions. One particular aspect of this situation, which I had not considered, was how the fact of slave labor in a culture affects the culture totally. In the South there was no free labor. Slaves did virtually all labor. The effect of this reality determined to a great extent the nature of the society.

The white man would not work for anyone because he considered laboring for hire made him no better than the black slave and his superiority to the black man was essential to his self-esteem. There was no labor class in the antebellum south. The slaves did the labor but the slave was a capital investment just like a horse or oxen. Here was a total society without a laboring class.

What were some of the effects of no free labor in the South? The most important factor I suspect was that the ordinary white man felt any labor was beneath his dignity. This lack of ‘free labor’ led to many of the characteristics of the Southern man and woman that probably is a factor today in the character of the Southerner.

I think that the wheel might be a useful analogy for understanding the mind of the South. The spokes of the wheel represent the essential components of all societies--economy, law and culture. The hub to which all spokes focus is slavery. The antebellum South revolved around slavery.

This area of the United States developed as any frontier area in the US during the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century. The climate and the circumstance of the cotton gin invention led to the evolution of a society that never lost its frontier characteristic while becoming an agricultural economy dependent almost totally upon cotton.

The economy was cotton and the power controlling the society was the cotton plantation. Early in the nineteenth century South Carolina plantation owners gained complete political control of the entire state and these plantation owners became the core that moved the eleven Southern states to emulate the South Carolina system. By the 1820s the South Carolina plantation politicians determined their goal to be separation from the Union if the Union failed to allow the expansion of slavery into the developing land as the nation moved West and new states began to join the Union.

There were three basic economic classes—plantation owners, yeomen farmers and poor whites. I do not include slaves as an economic class—they were basically capital (objects) just as horses and oxen are capital. The plantation owners controlled the wealth and power in their particular areas and banded together to control the wealth and political power in a region of state.

The yeomen and poor white were primarily subsistence farmers. Some of the yeomen had a few slaves but by and large the vast majority of slaves worked the large plantations. The plantations owned the good land leaving the less desirable land for the yeomen and poor white. Basically population ringed the best lands of the plantation with each succeeding lower rung in the economic ladder existing on less and less productive land.

There was somewhat of a heterogeneous mixture of relatives occupying each economic sector. The plantation owner was related by blood to many of the citizens in the area. There was not a great sense of hierarchy in class sensitivities because of the interrelated blood relationships. This fact also made it easier for the plantation owners to exercise their power over the community.

All classes recognized the importance of slavery to the whole society. While the yeoman and poor white did not, in most cases, own slaves they were as dependent on slavery as was the owner of slaves. For the yeoman and the poor white their self-esteem depended upon their sense of superiority to the slave. For these reasons the laws and the culture took the same attitude toward the importance of slavery, as did the plantation owners.

Devonin;993498 wrote: He's steadfastly ignored every single attempt I've ever made across more than one forum to actually engage him in discussion and debate. He basically already admitted that he's only here "to inspire" us instead of actually discuss things. SOunds like if anybody has anything stuck in the air, it isn't me. I'm actually interested in what people that aren't me have to say about something.
Yeh, I've noticed that your prolific list of posts (all 70 of 'em!) were all in Coberst's threads and none (that I read) emitting any sincere desire for real dialog (dialogue? conversation.) Get out and look around. The Garden has lots to see and hundreds of people to talk to. *You're starting to look like a stalker.*

coberst;993559 wrote: I think that the wheel might be a useful analogy for understanding the mind of the South. The spokes of the wheel represent the essential components of all societies--economy, law and culture. The hub to which all spokes focus is slavery. The antebellum South revolved around slavery.
I like the analogy, except I see slavery not as the hub but rather as the iron ring binding the wheel together. It takes all the punishment, is the only part that contacts the road, rocks, etc. It holds all the other peices together. without that ring, the rest are just pieces of wood, recognizeable but useless as a unit. Without slavery, the antebellum South fell apart, useless as a unit, though it was able to struggle along.



I'll have to address the rest at another time because I've run out for now.

Accountable;993661 wrote: I like the analogy, except I see slavery not as the hub but rather as the iron ring binding the wheel together. It takes all the punishment, is the only part that contacts the road, rocks, etc. It holds all the other peices together. without that ring, the rest are just pieces of wood, recognizeable but useless as a unit. Without slavery, the antebellum South fell apart, useless as a unit, though it was able to struggle along.



I'll have to address the rest at another time because I've run out for now.


The South has maintained to today a unity grounded on 'Us versus Them'. It is this cohesive attitude that has kept the South as politically ‘The Solid South’. You can see that today and you can see that in the 60s when the ‘Solid South’ turned from ‘Solid Democrats’ to ‘Solid Republicans’ after the Civil Rights legislation was driven to completion by LBJ. You can hear the unity when discussing the Civil War with a Southerner, their response is a constant and serious "the Civil War was not about slavery".

Accountable;993653 wrote: Yeh, I've noticed that your prolific list of posts (all 70 of 'em!) were all in Coberst's threads and none (that I read) emitting any sincere desire for real dialog (dialogue? conversation.) Get out and look around. The Garden has lots to see and hundreds of people to talk to. *You're starting to look like a stalker.*


Actually I look like someone who has collected a list of bookmarks of philosophy, religion and general discussion sections of forums because that's my area of primary interest, training and qualification. I can give you the list of links. Finding Coberst multi-posting the exact same things at all of them was coincidental. I just happen to have found it sufficiently appalling to bring up.



As for none of them emitting a sincere desire for dialogue, I'm pretty sure a number of my posts have been questions about his posts, comments on his posts that wanted a response from him, and in fact have evinced a very sincere desire to get some sort of response from him that has been entirely non-forthcoming. Try looking for actual responses from him for several weeks, fail to get a single solitary one, and then see how eager you are to continue bashing your head against the wall of his superiority and arrogance. (I'm even willing to grant that it isn't superiority and arrogance, and that he's just ignoring me out of spite at this point, but frankly, when other users don't even just call into question his general conclusions from information, but actually call into question the factual accuracy of his claims, and he ignores them entirely too, I tend to stop thinking that it's me, and start thinking that it's 'people who don't agree with him')

For example, Accountable. You asked him a perfectly reasonable question about a term he used in his post. Rather than actually respond clearly and directly to your question, Coberst copy/pasted, in its entirety, word-for-word the text of his thread also on this forum "Labour as a Commodity" Ironically the very thread I mentioned above where another user called into question the entire basis of the post and was just ignored, and the thread sat unresponded to this entire time.

This is the kind of lack of respect I'm referring to, where he can't even be bothered to address the questions that are asked of him, and instead just continues to copy/paste from somewhere else.

Devonin;993994 wrote: [...] Try looking for actual responses from him for several weeks, fail to get a single solitary one, and then see how eager you are to continue bashing your head against the wall of his superiority and arrogance.
I tend not to bash my head, though I've caught myself from time to time. Something I've never done is chase the wall across the internet for the chance to bash and bash again.

Google "Coberst" and you'll find tons and tons of forums he's joined, posted the same threads, and not responded to anyone who asks him a direct question. Sadly, it's a dead end....

Accountable;994753 wrote: I tend not to bash my head, though I've caught myself from time to time. Something I've never done is chase the wall across the internet for the chance to bash and bash again.


And if that's at all what I'd done, you might have a point. See the thing you seem to be missing is that my primary goal in looking for philsophy forumsis to find people to debate and discuss with, to enhance my knowledge of the world around me. As I said, finding him doing this at several of them was coincidental, but still causes me to point out how absurd I think it is.

Devonin;994760 wrote: And if that's at all what I'd done, you might have a point. See the thing you seem to be missing is that my primary goal in looking for philsophy forumsis to find people to debate and discuss with, to enhance my knowledge of the world around me. As I said, finding him doing this at several of them was coincidental, but still causes me to point out how absurd I think it is.
We're different. I'd ignore him & start a thread myself if he wasn't behaving as I'd want to.



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