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The commissioner for Racial Equality, Trevor Phillips has said that Black males should be educated separately in some cases. This is because in his opinion the high rate of absentee fathers in Black families leads to particular problems for this group, Phillips who is black has been already berated by "Liberals" of all colours.



I heard a (white, female) human rights lawyer on BBC radio 4 berating Phillips for "Overt racism". what bollocks, the guy idehtifies a problem that the education establishment has known for years but were afraid in these PC days to voice. Then the CHAIRMAN FOR RACIAL EQUALITY voices it and they are all over him like a rash.



OK let's abandon these black youths and wait a couple more years for the same people to berate the the education system for not helping their education

Bothwell, I see your point, however, what education are we talking about? Their ENTIRE education? Or educating them about parenting, or college or what? I don't know about England, but segregation in America is synonymous with racism. Do you have more details, please? Thanks.

Generally what we call secondary education 11 to 16 years old and it is their whole education bust especially Math and English

It wouldn't be segregation per se if the families involved have a choice as to where their children go to school. Addressing their needs is a great idea. Unfortunately, in our PC world, we're all supposed to be identical, like little robots coming off an assembly line. Even doctors seem afraid to discuss openly how certain diseases afflict specific races more than others.

Do you have a link? I'd send an email of support for this guy. Thanks!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/race/story/0, ... 51,00.html

Incidentally this is a black man saying this.

We have a comprehensive education system that was supposed to prevent discrimination on economic grounds and allow education for all. Most councils are cutting funding for special needs education and pretending that having people who are incapable of reading and writing or who need one on one care in the same class as other kids is a good thing-social integration they call it. This is a ludicrous idea it would be racist in its effect.

well.. does anyone recall when Bill Cosby said something similar here in the states.. he was berated for it in the media and by the liberals for days.. in some instances called a traitor to his race.. it was amazing. He identifies a problem and is criticized for it..

Grey, I just read an article in Newsweek about Cosby. He is honest about the problems surrounding his race, especially in the inner city, he talks openly about it, and yes, his own race is jumping all over him. I remember one part specifically: Cosby said "It's NOT ok for your 14 year old daughter to get pregnant, it's NOT ok for your 15 year old son to drop out of high school, it's NOT ok for your 13 year old to run with a gang..." All of which are very common problems, and true, and he gets crucified. I'll try to find that article.

So, what is the plan...to address the problem in SOME way, but make sure we sugar-coat it and make it sound "not quite as bad as it really is"? Very frustrating. :-5

gmc wrote:

Incidentally this is a black man saying this.
I don't care if he's a purple man. If he speaks the truth, I'm interested.



I'm not trying to bash you or anyone. But...if we really aren't racists, then it doesn't matter what race a person is when they speak. I know that some will point out that he's black as a potential antidote to the racism label, but it doesn't seem to work. Instead we get lost in defending his "right" to say what he thinks about a problem because of his kinship with one group or another. Don't even waste the time fighting it...just shrug, and agree that he's black, and get back to the point of his message.



That's my theory, anyway.

A Karenina wrote: I don't care if he's a purple man. If he speaks the truth, I'm interested.



I'm not trying to bash you or anyone. But...if we really aren't racists, then it doesn't matter what race a person is when they speak. I know that some will point out that he's black as a potential antidote to the racism label, but it doesn't seem to work. Instead we get lost in defending his "right" to say what he thinks about a problem because of his kinship with one group or another. Don't even waste the time fighting it...just shrug, and agree that he's black, and get back to the point of his message.



That's my theory, anyway.


Well said!!!

Bothwell wrote: The commissioner for Racial Equality, Trevor Phillips has said that Black males should be educated separately in some cases. This is because in his opinion the high rate of absentee fathers in Black families leads to particular problems for this group, Phillips who is black has been already berated by "Liberals" of all colours.



I heard a (white, female) human rights lawyer on BBC radio 4 berating Phillips for "Overt racism". what bollocks, the guy idehtifies a problem that the education establishment has known for years but were afraid in these PC days to voice. Then the CHAIRMAN FOR RACIAL EQUALITY voices it and they are all over him like a rash.



OK let's abandon these black youths and wait a couple more years for the same people to berate the the education system for not helping their education
From their cells and locked up lifestyles. It wasn't society's fault! Honest. The pc-ism is what I like to refer to as the non-racist racists. Seen any?

Riiiight.... so the white kid with no dad gets excluded from the program. This idea sounds so horribly racist on so many levels. Anyone have an article link?

Beth wrote: Riiiight.... so the white kid with no dad gets excluded from the program. This idea sounds so horribly racist on so many levels. Anyone have an article link?
GMC put a link up, back in post 5

abbey wrote: GMC put a link up, back in post 5
Thank you, for some reason I missed it.

Ok, this does smack so horribly of racism and bigotry.

He also called for tougher action against black fathers, questioning

whether they should be denied access to their sons if they refuse to

attend school parents' evenings.This appears to me that Phillips is possibly contemplating allowing the state to interfere with parental relationships with children. IMO, it is better that a son get some sort of time with his father, as long as the father is not abusive. What about the fathers that have to work two and three jobs to support their family? How can they possibly be expected to attend parent nights. Education is good, but many a father's preoccupation is putting food on the table, clothes on kid's backs, and a roof over children's heads. Well, the fathers that are around, there are many fathers that could care less, they are not around anyway. Why propose penalising fathers who are there and playing role as provider?

"If the only way to break through the wall of attitude that surrounds

black boys is to teach them separately for some subjects, then we

should be ready for that," he said. "A tough new strategy would compel

black fathers to be responsible fathers.

Riiight. There are poor little white boys, poor little Pakistani boys, and so on, who are in a rut as well. First of all, I wonder if income desparities play a role into the culture of poor school scores. I wonder if whites are predominately a wealthier race over there. what about the poor kids who are not black, poor kids that also need special care and role models? Why do the black kids get preferential treatment- funded by public monies? Include all children of all races who fall below a certain income level, then perhaps.



This Phillips guy sounds like a bigot: a black bigot. I also get really bad vibes about this and I don't think this could ever fly in America because watchdogs would be all over this. We are talking about removing a certain group of people, teaching them seperately, possibly wielding the threat of not being able to see the kids over the parents to force them to be involved in their children's education. :-2

posted by A Karenina

I don't care if he's a purple man. If he speaks the truth, I'm interested.

I'm not trying to bash you or anyone. But...if we really aren't racists, then it doesn't matter what race a person is when they speak. I know that some will point out that he's black as a potential antidote to the racism label, but it doesn't seem to work. Instead we get lost in defending his "right" to say what he thinks about a problem because of his kinship with one group or another. Don't even waste the time fighting it...just shrug, and agree that he's black, and get back to the point of his message.


I don't care what colour he is either, but if he was white it would come out as out and out racism.

He may have a valid point about the inderperformance of black youths but the colour is incidental sperate race schools is not the way to tackle it. We have enough problems without adding this kind of dimension.

You could say the same about any section of teenage youths from deprived areas of our big cities from Easterhouse to Birmingham race is not the issue unless you are going to start arguing that being black makes them less capable which arg=uement stacks up not at all.

Beth wrote: Riiiight.... so the white kid with no dad gets excluded from the program. This idea sounds so horribly racist on so many levels. Anyone have an article link?
In Canada if one group gets it then all groups get it. I haven't read the article and judging(OK shoot me) from the cant of beth's view it is racist in intent if not purpose.

Bothwell's sentiment of 'there is a problem then let's fix it and worry about it later' is what I see as not being racist. If this is going on in all of the cultures that are there then it is a common problem that has a common solution. White or black no parent in the home makes for a problem if there is any kind of financial need to support education, living standards and self-esteem.

A read of the article in question, which is a description by the socialist, left-wing newspaper, tells me that the problem is there and needs to be taken care of immediately. Getting people together to try and find the solutions for them while doing something about increasing the understanding and needs of the individuals now seems to be the intent of the issue.

I tend to think that Mr. Philips is throwing out ideas on the fly. The point is to get on with it and take care of the problem.

The generational ideals of raising children is not in the black culture as of yet and this lack is causing for there to be unrealistic ideals that are only for other people, especially white Englishmen. The grandparents and further generations back do a lot to be the invisible role models that are to be followed. The black culture is only beginning and it has growing pains. In the land of "Who were your forefathers" not having any can do a lot to lessen your aspirations and self-esteem.

"Why bother" is a sentiment that is easy to fall into while living under these conditions.

Kensloft, you raise some very valid points. Excellent post.

I don't know what the statistics are in the UK, but in the US well over 60% of black fathers are not around for the child. Divorce, prison, abandonment, etc - the absence of black fathers is very high in relation to other races. Looking at it from this point of view, I see nothing wrong with him targeting what could well be the largest group of children being hit with this particular problem.

Separating students along racial lines is wrong and dangerous. In my city there is already a legal form of segregation; Kids in the wealthy suburbs get a great education. Kids in the largely minority inner city score at the very bottom of the scale. Cause? I say poverty, uneducated uninterested parents and crime. Public schools with "African Centered" curricula are doing their students no favors. When poverty is erased so will the woes of education.

David813 wrote: Separating students along racial lines is wrong and dangerous. In my city there is already a legal form of segregation; Kids in the wealthy suburbs get a great education. Kids in the largely minority inner city score at the very bottom of the scale. Cause? I say poverty, uneducated uninterested parents and crime. Public schools with "African Centered" curricula are doing their students no favors. When poverty is erased so will the woes of education.
Poverty will never be erased as long as the educational system is favoured towards the rich. It is education that wil help to close the poverty gap. A more equitable distribution of Educational funds would be a far better way to look at solving the problem than blaming it on crime and the already ill educated parents.

posted by kensloft

A read of the article in question, which is a description by the socialist, left-wing newspaper, tells me that the problem is there and needs to be taken care of immediately.


Socialist left -wing newspaper? It was the guardian for goodness sake. wishy washy liberals.

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/

http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools ... 28,00.html

posted by kensloft

Poverty will never be erased as long as the educational system is favoured towards the rich. It is education that wil help to close the poverty gap. A more equitable distribution of Educational funds would be a far better way to look at solving the problem than blaming it on crime and the already ill educated parents.




So you do believe in some socialist policies, now I'm confused.

Joking aside don't compare this too much with the situation in the US and Canada.

We already have a cpmprehensive state funded education system intended to provide equal opportunity for all. O.K. we have a labour party run by a former public (UK context read private) school pupil who seems to think that should not be the case but that's a different issue.

It's also grossly untrue, many afro carribbean parents are incredibly strict with their kids and want them to do well. My wife was a teacher in an inner London school where white folk were in a definite minority, discipline was a problem but for most of the kids all it took was the threat to bring in the parents.

If you look at schools in socially deprived areas you will come up with similar statistics. Places like easterhouse in Glasgow where you can't blame the problem on colou. Yes there is a an element of counter culture but racial segragation is not the way to go.

The next stage perhaps should be seperate schools for males and females as females are now outsripping the boys in academic performance

I have been pondering this a bit, and maybe Phillips is (as another poster has stated) just trying to get this out in the open.

GMC you are absolutely right in any given UK city (let's leave bloody London out for a change) Glasgow, manchester Brum etc you will see inner city schools failing. I have friend who was teacher who for her own reasons picked the toughest school in my area. She really loved it but was gardually worn down by not so much the kids as the parent's attitude. To most of these people getting the kid to sit down and do homework was akin to returning their satellite dish, ie never going to happen. She constantly saw good bright kids just stifled by parents who had no ambition or future so the kids could have none either.

So that leads me to this: It's hard enough to encourage kids when there are two parents at home, if there is only one and that one has to deal with poverty as well it is near impossible.

gmc wrote: He may have a valid point about the inderperformance of black youths but the colour is incidental sperate race schools is not the way to tackle it. We have enough problems without adding this kind of dimension.
Unfortunately, whenever one group wants to try something new to solve a problem, another dimension rears its ugly head. If this didn't target black children, then it would be poor children and people would scream about targeting the poor.



If change were cheap and easy, then I'd be more understanding of why people are pointing fingers. But change requires a lot in terms of funding, time, commitment, laws, regulations, etc. A new program has to start smaller, work out its own kinks, and then expand wherever else it's needed.



To me then, these are the options. Target one specific group (probably the group most affected) and work your way from there. Or listen to the naysayers who think all progress should be perfect, smooth, and seamless - and in the end do nothing because there is no such thing as perfect, seamless change.



It's not like the guy was saying they needed special schools for these boys. He wanted to provide special separate classes for these boys that are able to target their specific needs. The fact that they are black children is meaningless. Start there, and if it works, expand it.



gmc wrote: You could say the same about any section of teenage youths from deprived areas of our big cities from Easterhouse to Birmingham race is not the issue unless you are going to start arguing that being black makes them less capable which arg=uement stacks up not at all.
Totally agree with you there! Being less capable is not based on race. But it can be based on background and environment.

Bothwell wrote:

So that leads me to this: It's hard enough to encourage kids when there are two parents at home, if there is only one and that one has to deal with poverty as well it is near impossible.
True, but the answer is not to threaten the removal of children from said homes. Here, we have a mentoring program. Children who have parents that cannot be involved can be introduced to a mentor who will inspire preformance. I was supposed to get into the program, but my daughter's health at the beginning of the school year was poor. From what I saw of the program, however, it was a very good thing. It helped the parents out that simply did not have the time or energy left to help inspire and drive a kid into achieving.

Bothwell wrote: I have been pondering this a bit, and maybe Phillips is (as another poster has stated) just trying to get this out in the open.

GMC you are absolutely right in any given UK city (let's leave bloody London out for a change) Glasgow, manchester Brum etc you will see inner city schools failing. I have friend who was teacher who for her own reasons picked the toughest school in my area. She really loved it but was gardually worn down by not so much the kids as the parent's attitude. To most of these people getting the kid to sit down and do homework was akin to returning their satellite dish, ie never going to happen. She constantly saw good bright kids just stifled by parents who had no ambition or future so the kids could have none either.

So that leads me to this: It's hard enough to encourage kids when there are two parents at home, if there is only one and that one has to deal with poverty as well it is near impossible.
Awesome. The other shoe drops.(american colloquialism)

"The other shoe drops"

I am not familiar with the expression but my guess would be that the nearest UK saying would be "The penny drops" which would imply that I had suddenly had some epiphany regarding, poverty, race, education etc thereby implying that I had no idea this all went on, ie I am stupid (UK colloq).

This was put out as a discussion subject, i do not have the answers to Education, Poverty racism etc, nor as far as I know does anyone else !

Bothwell wrote: "The other shoe drops"

I am not familiar with the expression but my guess would be that the nearest UK saying would be "The penny drops" which would imply that I had suddenly had some epiphany regarding, poverty, race, education etc thereby implying that I had no idea this all went on, ie I am stupid (UK colloq).

This was put out as a discussion subject, i do not have the answers to Education, Poverty racism etc, nor as far as I know does anyone else !


It's the suspense between when the first shoe dropping off the foot hits the floor and when the second shoe drops. When it hits the floor... that's all she wrote. The epiphany would be knowing that there aren't many three footed people around.