A question for Anglicans

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:05 pm

Hi all, I'm not very religious as I'm sure a lot of you know, but I am a Catholic nonetheless. I have been watching the events in the Anglican church (or better known as the Church of England, and its associated churches worldwide) lately, and it seems to me that the church is splitting evenly along the lines drawn over the very controversial issue of gay clergy and to a lesser degree female clergy, predictably between conservatives who utterly disagree with these ideas, and liberals who embrace this move. Both of course are well able to quote their religious tracts to justify their positions.

So my questions are, what do any Anglicans think about this, or do you care? Also, what do you think the future is for the Anglican Church in general.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:33 pm

Galbally;924286 wrote: Hi all, I'm not very religious as I'm sure a lot of you know, but I am a Catholic nonetheless. I have been watching the events in the Anglican church (or better known as the Church of England, and its associated churches worldwide) lately, and it seems to me that the church is splitting evenly along the lines drawn over the very controversial issue of gay clergy and to a lesser degree female clergy, predictably between conservatives who utterly disagree with these ideas, and liberals who embrace this move. Both of course are well able to quote their religious tracts to justify their positions.

So my questions are, what do any Anglicans think about this, or do you care? Also, what do you think the future is for the Anglican Church in general.

The church to which I've been affiliated is merging back in with the Anglicans in around four years so I'm a sort-of Anglican.

The worldwide Anglican communion might well disintegrate into two confessions, London-centred liberal and African-centred Conservative. Each would promote roving Bishops with factional authority in the other's territory to provide pastoral oversight of parishes which break away from the preponderant local party. That's happening already, it's the reason I think the split's inevitable.

So, nationally the preponderant faction - in the UK that's the liberal wing - keeps all but a few parishes, a few break away to a new confession and retain Christ's commission by the laying on of hands of the roving Bishops. The idea of roving Bishops within the same confession is twenty years old and has no remaining mileage to it at all.

It'll probably involve a few evictions, a few parish councils going to the House of Lords about who can worship in the old parish church building. Small earthquake, not many dead.

I can pinpoint the one moment which existed in the 20th century for Anglicanism to re-enter communion with Rome and end up with no Women Priests much less Women Bishops, it's a turning point in world history and it happened fifty years ago five hundred yards from where I live. Would you like to hear me make it up as I go, bearing in mind that it's all true?

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:57 pm

The Australian Anglican scene is peculiar. The Diocese of Sydney - and the head of the Anglican church in Australia - is quite different from the Anglican church in pretty much all the rest of the country. It's Evangelical with a capital E, narrow, conservative and tends towards Methodism. It is totally anti women, gays etc. The Canberra (capital of Australia) is much more liberal, has women priests, will predicably have a female bishop soon (there is one in Perth, Western Australia) and is much closer to Catholicism. Bells and smells, Mass, dressing up, priests, confession etc. In Sydney it's parsons, long sermons, and dark suits with dog collars. I don't think we have openly gay clergy anywhere. BUT a bit of the most Catholic wing has joined with the most Evangelical wing in solidarity over the abomination of women who want to do more than teach Sunday school.

As an ordinary bad Anglican Catholic - I really don't care about all these politicians posturing and legislating. It is my opinion that the Church government long ago became an end in itself. Structure is necessary, but it isn't what Christianity is about. My Parish in Canberra has a senior female priest in charge, a doctor of theology and a canon. She is an inspiration. But I've had great male priests too. I really don't care. Wouldn't mind a gay one either, per se.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:27 pm

spot;924346 wrote: The church to which I've been affiliated is merging back in with the Anglicans in around four years so I'm a sort-of Anglican.

The worldwide Anglican communion might well disintegrate into two confessions, London-centred liberal and African-centred Conservative. Each would promote roving Bishops with factional authority in the other's territory to provide pastoral oversight of parishes which break away from the preponderant local party. That's happening already, it's the reason I think the split's inevitable.

So, nationally the preponderant faction - in the UK that's the liberal wing - keeps all but a few parishes, a few break away to a new confession and retain Christ's commission by the laying on of hands of the roving Bishops. The idea of roving Bishops within the same confession is twenty years old and has no remaining mileage to it at all.

It'll probably involve a few evictions, a few parish councils going to the House of Lords about who can worship in the old parish church building. Small earthquake, not many dead.

I can pinpoint the one moment which existed in the 20th century for Anglicanism to re-enter communion with Rome and end up with no Women Priests much less Women Bishops, it's a turning point in world history and it happened fifty years ago five hundred yards from where I live. Would you like to hear me make it up as I go, bearing in mind that it's all true?

Yes absolutely, fire away, this is fascinating, roving bishops indeed!

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:31 pm

AussiePam;924503 wrote: The Australian Anglican scene is peculiar. The Diocese of Sydney - and the head of the Anglican church in Australia - is quite different from the Anglican church in pretty much all the rest of the country. It's Evangelical with a capital E, narrow, conservative and tends towards Methodism. It is totally anti women, gays etc. The Canberra (capital of Australia) is much more liberal, has women priests, will predicably have a female bishop soon (there is one in Perth, Western Australia) and is much closer to Catholicism. Bells and smells, Mass, dressing up, priests, confession etc. In Sydney it's parsons, long sermons, and dark suits with dog collars. I don't think we have openly gay clergy anywhere. BUT a bit of the most Catholic wing has joined with the most Evangelical wing in solidarity over the abomination of women who want to do more than teach Sunday school.

As an ordinary bad Anglican Catholic - I really don't care about all these politicians posturing and legislating. It is my opinion that the Church government long ago became an end in itself. Structure is necessary, but it isn't what Christianity is about. My Parish in Canberra has a senior female priest in charge, a doctor of theology and a canon. She is an inspiration. But I've had great male priests too. I really don't care. Wouldn't mind a gay one either, per se.

This does sound peculiar, I suppose I am a typical Catholic in that I don't really get the doctrinaire stuff with liberal Protestantism (though of course issues such as gay rights and womens' rights are perfectly understandable in a secular social context) and the controversy it generates, as in Catholicism (which is not very liberal) it just is the way it is, and if you are a practicing Catholic you accept it, though change certainly happens, but its very much from the top down, and most Catholics wouldn't get into the rules bit about the religion, just when abuses start to be made public I suppose there is a general feeling that things should change.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:14 pm

Here in Canada we have a few roving bishops, who should be sent home where they belong. They are not Anglican tradition nor are the allowed for in the canons.

The majority of Canadian Anglicans are ok with women priests and bishops (not new here) as well as having no problem with same sex issues whether it be as priests or congregants. All are welcome at the Lord's table.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Kindle · Post by **Kindle** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:56 am

The Episcopal Church in the United States has female and gay priests and, consequently, female priests and gay bishops. This is an outgrowth of the belief that they should be inclusive rather than exclusive.

The hot issue here right now are churches (5) which want to leave over the gay issue and become separated from the Episcopal Church. Separating is not a problem, but the assets of land, church, etc. is now in court to be settled as the churches are not owned by the parish, but by the Episcopal Church.

Post by **spot** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:17 pm

Galbally;924557 wrote: Yes absolutely, fire awayMy dear boy, I completely missed seeing that invitation last time around. You actually want me to tell the tale? I'll try to write it this evening.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:43 pm

This is the best place for this at the moment.

My computer is beginning to fail. It is very old and a tune up won't likely cut it. My email is somewhat screwed up but still working, sort of. My sound card is dead and I've only about 20% free space left out of 40GB. Damned thing freezes up when I try to work in photoshop.

If I disappear for a short bit I will be back.

I looked at a new HP yesterday and will likely pick it up in a week or so.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Post by **spot** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:50 pm

I'm sure you'll enjoy a new machine Ted. If you have a few days between machines, you live in the most beautiful place on earth - take in the views and the fresh air. We'll enjoy having you back when you get online again.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:03 pm

Spot:-6

Thanks. I'll be here as long as I can make this machine creep along. Talk about slow! Sometimes I wonder if it is going to work at all.

I may be away for a week. If I am I will get a new machine when I get back, If I stay home I may go and get it tomorrow.

Yes, the mountains across the straight are absolutely beautiful. It is even nice to see the snow OVER THERE.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:33 pm

spot;1057997 wrote: My dear boy, I completely missed seeing that invitation last time around. You actually want me to tell the tale? I'll try to write it this evening.

Did you ever get the chance to write this?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:04 pm

Bryn Mawr;1063426 wrote: Did you ever get the chance to write this?

Yes Spot, come along... I'm waiting as well with interest.

Post by **spot** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:11 am

Golly.

I wish I knew whether it was true, that's all.

I'll type it today. I've no idea who to ask to find out if it happened.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:17 pm

Wow:-6

500gigs and a 4 core processor. I don't think this fast.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:17 am

Well, I'll give it a go but I've failed to find anyone so far who can tell me what really happened.

Around the corner from me is All Saints With Saint John's Clifton, Bristol's High Anglican smells-and-bells community. All Saints was built in mid-Victorian days for exactly that purpose - burning incense, wearing the right regalia and moving slowly in procession. It was bombed out in 1943 and rebuilt in 1967. During the interim the congregation moved in with Saint John's on Blackboy Hill, after they moved back they took the Saint John's congregation with them and Saint John's building was sold to a fine-art auctioneer.

Mervyn Stockwood, who became a famous left-leaning public-speaking High Church Bishop of Southwark, holidayed regularly near All Saints, joined its congregation before the war and was moulded by its atmosphere, eventually being ordained in Bristol and getting a ministry in Bristol's East End tenements. After his various moves he retired to Bristol and finally ran All Saints for half a year around 1978.

In the early 1960s it became clear that the Roman Catholic Cathedral of the See of Clifton was an unsafe structure. Eventually, in 1965, a new 900-seat cathedral was built 400 yards from the brand-new All Saints.

In the late 1980s I attended at the New Rooms a public lecture on Ecumenism which Mervyn Stockwood addressed. In passing he mentioned that All Saints had made an offer to the Roman Catholic bishop which hadn't been taken up.

I suspect that what he said was that All Saints had offered the use of their new and unoccupied church, which seats 800, for the Cathedral's congregation to hold services in while they were homeless.

It's possible, though unlikely, that he said the Bristol diocese had offered the new church to be the new Roman Catholic Cathedral as an act of ecumenical solidarity. That seems unlikely but it was what I had in my mind for a while as the trigger for my alternate-world moment. What I wrote above was that "I can pinpoint the one moment which existed in the 20th century for Anglicanism to re-enter communion with Rome and end up with no Women Priests much less Women Bishops, it's a turning point in world history and it happened fifty years ago five hundred yards from where I live".

Anyway, my theoretical alternate-world act of reconciliation of the Church of England with Roman Catholicism, right at the high tide of Vatican Two, would have been offering Saint Augustine's, the Anglican Cathedral on College Green, which had seen worship for centuries before Henry's break with Rome, as the replacement Roman Catholic cathedral. No Roman Catholic community in Britain has, as far as I know, a building which pre-dates the split. It would have been an act that echoed round the world, handing the cathedral over. If it had brought the two churches into communion there would have been no possible way for Synod to introduce women priests twenty years later (which finally gets me back to the thread's topic!). It is, admittedly, an idle thought and I'm quite sure it was entirely impossible given the state of the Church of England at the time. I'd still like to know what the actual offer from All Saints was. I've searched the Reference Library to no avail. I'll ask a priest eventually if I can find one who was around back then.

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:22 am

Ted;1069093 wrote: Wow:-6

500gigs and a 4 core processor. I don't think this fast.

Shalom

Ted:-6

You made the leap and bought your new machine?

If you type twenty books a year for the next ten thousand years you'll use 10% of that disk.

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:27 am

I have encountered several lady vicars and have found them to be wonderful people and they bring a certain 'modernatity' to the church which I like.

I have no problem with gay vicars either.......I know several gay people both male and female and they are all wonderful, caring people.

I only have problems with those who step outside the bounds of human decency and are abusers, bullies, liars, thieves, murderers etc.

Post by **spot** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:46 am

Bez;1070046 wrote: I only have problems with those who step outside the bounds of human decency and are abusers, bullies, liars, thieves, murderers etc.

Ah - the remainder of the clergy who are neither gay nor female!