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There is an old saying, “As goes GM, so goes America. Today that appears to be truer than ever. The “economy of GM is in shambles and it appears that we have talked and worked our way into an equal mess for the US economy.

Look around any parking lot and it becomes apparent why GM is in trouble. Most of the cars are not American made and many of the American brands are SUVs, now passé.

Within the last few days GM announced that it was canceling the health insurance coverage for retired non-union workers age 65 and over (a couple of years ago GM froze its contribution toward the under 65 retirees health benefits so that in a few years the premium will equal nearly one-third of the average retirees pension). That is reprehensible, pure and simple.

The fault for GMs current state lies with the company and the UAW who, for years, failed to adapt to the changing auto market but rather clung to benefits and work practices that were not competitive or sustainable.

Now, innocent retires who were promised these benefits, and who theoretically paid for them as part of their total compensation during all the years they worked are on the short end of the stick. Sure, GM is upping their pension by $300 a month, about what it costs for one person to buy Medicare supplemental coverage, but that will not help much as the health insurance premiums rise and the $300 does not.

America is paying dearly for its shortsightedness. In fact, I believe we are seeing a general adjustment and lowering of the standard of living for all Americans. We are beginning to pay the price for our collective excesses and ignoring the potential impact of the rest of the world on the US. :yh_worry

GM makes up for a very large portion of jobs in Dayton, Ohio and we're seeing the effects associated with GMs' short sidedness...

The problem lies in the laws that don't prevent this from happening...The problem lies in corporations lining politicians with their pockets...

But GM's going no where...They still have the American name...They've just waited for the last possible moment to shift their automobile marketing practices...



General Motors, committed to developing the industry's widest range of gas-friendly to gas-free vehicles, will showcase several gas-saving commercial vehicles at the 2008 Chicago Auto Show Feb. 6 thru Feb. 17.

GM's Fleet and Commercial Operations (FCO) will display vehicles featuring outstanding fuel economy, E85 ethanol and biodiesel capability, and gas-electric hybrid vehicles designed to help GM customers go green without going broke.

"More and more of our business and commercial customers are concerned about the environmental impact of their vehicle fleets and how that influences the reputation of their company," said John Gaydash, GM FCO marketing director. "They want to increase fuel efficiency, lower their dependence on petroleum and help reduce vehicle emissions. Our broad lineup of cars and trucks provides customers with the right vehicles to meet their environmental needs while still making sure the job gets done. "

Here are some of the gas-friendly vehicles designed for commercial and business use that will be at the Chicago Auto Show:

Chevrolet HHR Panel

The Chevy HHR Panel gets 30 highway miles per gallon, and features windowless side panels that are perfect for advertising a business. It also features a flat load floor with underfloor storage. It is a popular vehicle with florists, pizza parlors and businesses that deliver smaller items.

Chevrolet Express 3500 Cargo Van

GM's clean-burning, dependable and powerful 6.6 L Duramax engine can use B5 biodiesel and comes in rear-wheel or all-wheel drive. The Express also has left-hand side load doors and remote release side panels for easy loading and access.

Chevrolet Silverado

The half-ton Silverado gives customers the choice of powering their truck with E85 ethanol, gasoline or a combination of both fuels. In addition, this 2008 Fleet Truck of the Year continues to delight fleet owners with its comfort, capability and best-in-class fuel economy.

Chevrolet Silverado HD 3500

Available with a gas or diesel engine, the Silverado HD 3500 offers payload capacity and towing for any job site requirement. A new six-speed automatic transmission - including two overdrive gears - helps deliver an excellent balance of performance and fuel economy.

The available Duramax 6.6L turbo-diesel engine leads the segment in power and torque, with ratings of 365 horsepower 660 lb.-ft. of torque. The engine includes a diesel particulate filter system that helps provide a 90-percent reduction in particulate matter and a 50-percent reduction in NOx.

Chevrolet Impala Police Pursuit Vehicle

The 2008 Chevrolet Impala Police Car can operate on cleaner-burning, renewable E85 ethanol, an energy source that can help reduce our dependence on petroleum. E85 has been a very popular choice among fleet customers - including law enforcement agencies - because its availability is growing, and because E85 vehicles are an affordable fleet option.

The Impala PPV delivers improved fuel economy thanks to Active Fuel Management. The technology shuts off half the engine's cylinders when full power is not needed, improving fuel economy by up to 8 percent in certain driving situations.

Chevrolet Tahoe Police Pursuit Vehicle

The Tahoe PPV is the only SUV rated as a police pursuit vehicle. The 2008 Tahoe PPV is powered by the Vortec 5.3L V-8 engine delivering 320 horsepower (238 kW)* and 340 lb.-ft. of torque (470 Nm)*. The Vortec 5.3L features Active Fuel Management™ technology, resulting in improved fuel economy, and can operate on E85 ethanol.

Silverado Hybrid

The 2009 Chevrolet Silverado Hybrid is a full-size pickup that achieves 40-percent greater city fuel economy and a 25-percent improvement in overall fuel economy. It is expected to deliver fuel economy comparable to many small and midsize trucks that are equipped with four- or six-cylinder engines, and be the most fuel-efficient full-size pickup on the market, besting the current V-8 leader - the non-hybrid Silverado.

The hybrid system provides all-electric driving at low speeds, allowing fuel savings to be realized even when the truck is fully loaded or towing a trailer. Silverado Hybrid can tow up to 6,100 pounds (2,767 kg).

The Silverado Hybrid goes on sale in late 2008 and is based on the award-winning Silverado platform that was named 2008 Fleet Truck of the Year by commercial fleet managers.




http://www.autonews24h.com/Auto-Industr ... /2460.html

Is 30 miles per gallon thought of as being good milage??? Someone where I work just bought a 1.2 litre VW Polo diesel car. It gets 73 miles per gallon. Most small family cars over here would get around the 45 miles per gallon (petrol) to 55-60 miles per gallon (diesel), and thats still not really enough. Though I suspect your list of cars there was mostly trucks and SUVs by the sound of it.

Galbally;919335 wrote: Is 30 miles per gallon thought of as being good milage??? Someone where I work just bought a 1.2 litre VW Polo diesel car. It gets 73 miles per gallon. Most small family cars over here would get around the 45 miles per gallon (petrol) to 55-60 miles per gallon (diesel), and thats still not really enough. Though I suspect your list of cars there was mostly trucks and SUVs by the sound of it.


Yes...My intent really was to show GMs' intent to comply with societies demands...America still very much depends on family oriented vehicles, and SUV's and Vans are still going to be a way of life in America(What's the statistic, 3 kids to every family in America?)...

GM will most assuredly comply with the modern sedan fuel efficient cars in the same way they will with their larger cars...In most cases projects are well under full swing here...

Most of GMs' layoffs are people to whom work within the production facilities that produce the larger vehicles like the SUVs, vans, and trucks...

But assuredly GM and other American entrenched automobile corporations will definitely remain in business...They're just not helping things with allowing foreign based automobile corporations to present more fuel efficient vehicles before GM and other American automobile corporations have...

For an example...Harley Davidson motorcycles are highly coveted motorcycles here in America and one can sell a used Harley Davidson for 3/4 of it's original worth after 5-8 years(Depending on the owner keeping it conditioned) whereas one with a motorcycle that doesn't bare the name "Harley Davidson" will be lucky to sell his motorcycle for 1/3 of it's original price after 5-8 years...All in the name...

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;919237 wrote: There is an old saying, “As goes GM, so goes America.” Today that appears to be truer than ever. The “economy” of GM is in shambles and it appears that we have talked and worked our way into an equal mess for the US economy.

Look around any parking lot and it becomes apparent why GM is in trouble. Most of the cars are not American made and many of the American brands are SUVs, now passé.

Within the last few days GM announced that it was canceling the health insurance coverage for retired non-union workers age 65 and over (a couple of years ago GM froze its contribution toward the under 65 retirees health benefits so that in a few years the premium will equal nearly one-third of the average retirees pension). That is reprehensible, pure and simple.

The fault for GMs current state lies with the company and the UAW who, for years, failed to adapt to the changing auto market but rather clung to benefits and work practices that were not competitive or sustainable.

Now, innocent retires who were promised these benefits, and who theoretically paid for them as part of their total compensation during all the years they worked are on the short end of the stick. Sure, GM is upping their pension by $300 a month, about what it costs for one person to buy Medicare supplemental coverage, but that will not help much as the health insurance premiums rise and the $300 does not.

America is paying dearly for its shortsightedness. In fact, I believe we are seeing a general adjustment and lowering of the standard of living for all Americans. We are beginning to pay the price for our collective excesses and ignoring the potential impact of the rest of the world on the US. :yh_worry


I am forced to agree with you Quinn, I have been looking at the data coming out of the US over the past few weeks, and it is seriously (and I mean seriously) alarming. I had an inkling earlier this year that the US was in very serious trouble and I posted about it, but its still shocking when the reality starts to unfold. My main thoughts would be what in the name of god have people been doing on Wall Street and in American business? Also, from a citizen's point of view, why has the financial industry been allowed to develop these insane business practices, and the corporates as well? Its like American capitalism has been committing collective suicide through financial and economic practices over the past 2 decades that were essentially nuts, and could only ever lead to one outcome, which is the one we are at now.

I also think that the next few weeks are going to tell whether its just a serious global recession that we witnessing, or something much more significant and like the economic and financial disasters of the late 1920s. The fact that the US government are now talking about using enormous amounts of tax payers money to bail out these clowns would be particularly galling if I was an American, seeing as its unacceptble to "socialize" medical care, but perfectly acceptable to "socialize" the bad debts of financial institutions, and property speculation.

For us in Europe, the UK and Ireland are in significant trouble because we have essentially adopted the American model in recent decades, and we have also basically based our economies on massively inflated land values and very cheap credit, and that bubble is well and truly burst now, and we are up sh*t creek as it were. In Ireland we have had our own housing market bubble (worse even than the states, though without that crazy crazy sub-prime stuff), now that has crashed at exactly the same moment as the oil shock and the credit crunch globally (ouch).

The rest of Europe is better placed (as the Mortgage market is totally different, for instance the German mortage debt to GDP ratio is 4% while in the US its 44%), however the collapse of the Dollar against the Euro is making it much harder for Europeans to export their goods, and easier for us to import cheap Asian goods (though at least the strong Euro is helping us to offset imported commodity inflation somewhat).

I would agree with you that essentially what is going to happen is that there is going to be a very significant drop in American living standards now, as the payment for the years of corporate and financial excess starts being extracted from the real economy, this is going to put American faith in unfettered capitalism under serious pressure as ordinary people see their assets, pensions, jobs, and futures being wiped out because of the greed and incompetance of the wealthy and powerful interests of society.

European counties are also going to feel the pain, though probably not to the same extend as the States, (though Britain is probably going to be very seriously affected of the major EU countries because of its total reliance on consumer spending, the vunerability of sterling, and the over-reliance on the financial industry for the health of its economy.

What the outcome of all of this is? Its difficult to tell, massive amounts of wealth are being transferred now to the Opec countries, and the far East, we are watching a very rapid transfer of real economic power away from the West, with serious geopolitical outcomes, but they are too large and complicated to make any serious assessment of. What is safe to say is that everything is changing, and the world is going to look quite different in a couple of years time. Whether for the better or worse is hard to say.

K.Snyder;919360 wrote: Yes...My intent really was to show GMs' intent to comply with societies demands...America still very much depends on family oriented vehicles and SUV's and Vans are still going to be a way of life in America(What's the statistic, 3 kids to every family in America?)...

GM will most assuredly comply with the modern sedan fuel efficient cars in the same way they will with their larger cars...In most cases projects are well under full swing here...

Most of GMs' layoffs are people to whom work within the production facilities that produce the larger vehicles like the SUVs, vans, and trucks...

But assuredly GM and other American entrenched automobile corporations will definitely remain in business...They're just not helping things with allowing foreign based automobile corporations to present more fuel efficient vehicles before GM and other American automobile corporations have...

For an example...Harley Davidson motorcycles are highly coveted motorcycles here in America and one can seel a used Harley Davidson for 3/4 of it's original worth after 5-8 years(Depending on the owner keeping it conditioned) whereas one with a motorcycle that doesn't bare the name "Harley Davidson" will be lucky to sell his motorcycle fr 1/3 of it's original price after 5-8 years...All in the name...


Well, I can tell you that Ford and GM have huge European divisions that already produce very good fuel-efficient vehicles (for the last 30 years), that compete very well in the competative European market, and would be ready for the American market in the morning, though whether Americans would want to drive European style cars is another matter (as you say).

I think what you are going to have to start contemplating is a serious life-style change away from the profilgate use of what used to be cheap oil and gas, thats the fundamental truth of the matter. How that is achieved is the interesting bit. In Europe we face similar problems, but we are a little bit further down the line in terms of energy efficiency and our acceptance that the oil age is essentially coming to an end, and we need an alternative economic model based on a more sustainable energy economy and general lifestyle. The challenge for the next American president is going to be in making this reality plain to ordinary US citizens.

The thing with free markets is you either have them or you don't, if you punish foreign manufacturers for producing better vehicles and bringing them to market more quickly, then essentially you are rewarding the American companies for being inefficient, shortsighted and greedy. The sentimental response is of course to do this for the sake of the nation and jobs etc etc, but in the long run you end up with a broken economy (which is what you have now), and consumers end up with inferior products. Also of course, foreign car makers have to make significant numbers of cars in the US, so there are American jobs on the line whether Honda or Ford go under, so its not a simple patriotic equation.

Galbally;919375 wrote: Well, I can tell you that Ford and GM have huge European divisions that already produce very good fuel-efficient vehicles (for the last 30 years), that compete very well in the competative European market, and would be ready for the American market in the morning, though whether Americans would want to drive European style cars is another matter (as you say).

I think what you are going to have to start contemplating is a serious life-style change away from the profilgate use of what used to be cheap oil and gas, thats the fundamental truth of the matter. How that is achieved is the interesting bit. In Europe we face similar problems, but we are a little bit further down the line in terms of energy efficiency and our acceptance that the oil age is essentially coming to an end, and we need an alternative economic model based on a more sustainable energy economy and general lifestyle. The challenge for the next American president is going to be in making this reality plain to ordinary US citizens.

The thing with free markets is you either have them or you don't, if you punish foreign manufacturers for producing better vehicles and bringing them to market more quickly, then essentially you are rewarding the American companies for being inefficient, shortsighted and greedy. The sentimental response is of course to do this for the sake of the nation and jobs etc etc, but in the long run you end up with a broken economy (which is what you have now), and consumers end up with inferior products. Also of course, foreign car makers have to make significant numbers of cars in the US, so there are American jobs on the line whether Honda or Ford go under, so its not a simple patriotic equation.


Absolutely...I never bought in to the whole Harley Davidson thing anyway...:wah:

rjwould;919369 wrote: Hey, its the market working. Why are you complaining?

Let the market work!

Let the market work!

Let the market work!


The market hasn't been allowed to work-that's part the problem. Rather than bleating about foreign competition and trying to restrict it they should have faced up to it. GM europe-as galbally says produce reasonably good cars. My wife has a chevrolet-made in Korea and formerly called a daewoo. Good cars quite cheap second hand cos the brand is viewed as being really naff-the Chevrolet name even more so. The kind of car that owning one makes a statement you don't care what people think.

gmc;919518 wrote: ...one makes a statement you don't care what people think.


Reminds me of an old saying that has stuck with me since the 6th grade(11-12 year olds)

"What's popular isn't always right, what's right isn't always popular"...

The first time I've heard it it just stuck with me...

rjwould;919369 wrote:

Let the market work!

Let the market work!

Let the market work!
I agree. Let the market work. Parasitic organizations such as the UAW in their greed are killing their hosts. If they would watch the market and adjust they would be far more successful for their members. Unions are like guns, or hammers, or prescription back-pain medicine. When they are necessary they are wonderful and effective. They need to be around for when they are needed, but abusing them and over-relying on them only leads to destruction.



People need to realize that nobody cares about their well-being as much as they themselves to, and need to prepare for any emergency should their "safety net" prove unreliable - like you, Jester, and I have.

gmc;919518 wrote: The market hasn't been allowed to work-that's part the problem. Rather than bleating about foreign competition and trying to restrict it they should have faced up to it. GM europe-as galbally says produce reasonably good cars. My wife has a chevrolet-made in Korea and formerly called a daewoo. Good cars quite cheap second hand cos the brand is viewed as being really naff-the Chevrolet name even more so. The kind of car that owning one makes a statement you don't care what people think.


A friend of mine has one of the newer Ford Focus models, a diesel, its a very good car, drives great and very economical. I haven't driven one of those Daewoo/Chevrolet jobs but I am sure its a perfectly adequate car, while never one thats going to set the world on fire. Anyway, back to the coalface.

K.Snyder;919254 wrote: GM makes up for a very large portion of jobs in Dayton, Ohio and we're seeing the effects associated with GMs' short sidedness...

The problem lies in the laws that don't prevent this from happening...The problem lies in corporations lining politicians with their pockets...


But GM's going no where...They still have the American name...They've just waited for the last possible moment to shift their automobile marketing practices...



http://www.autonews24h.com/Auto-Industr ... /2460.html


So you are saying their should be laws against corporate stupidty and union greed?

In fact, many laws generated by Congress promote anti competitiveness and inhibit the ability for companies to adapt...with more to come.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;920455 wrote: So you are saying their should be laws against corporate stupidty and union greed?



In fact, many laws generated by Congress promote anti competitiveness and inhibit the ability for companies to adapt...with more to come.
And then people look at the problems caused by those laws and call for ... are ya ready? ... more gov't intervention to solve those problems. :yh_doh

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;920455 wrote: So you are saying their should be laws against corporate stupidty and union greed?

In fact, many laws generated by Congress promote anti competitiveness and inhibit the ability for companies to adapt...with more to come.


You're suggesting that the corporations associated with the laying off of many workers as well as stealing peoples' retirement funds in every instance related to the one in question is the result of stupidity and not greed?...

No there should be more union laws that prevent corporations from sacking people to whom has spent practically their entire lives working for a company only to either 1) Have their retirement funds stolen or 2) be laid off only to lose their job to a new and illegal face...

Those companies should be forced to pay those retirement funds...And no exceptions...

K.Snyder;920565 wrote: You're suggesting that the corporations associated with the laying off of many workers as well as stealing peoples' retirement funds in every instance related to the one in question is the result of stupidity and not greed?...

No there should be more union laws that prevent corporations from sacking people to whom has spent practically their entire lives working for a company only to either 1) Have their retirement funds stolen or 2) be laid off only to lose their job to a new and illegal face...

Those companies should be forced to pay those retirement funds...And no exceptions...


Who said anythng about stealing retirememnt funds? We were talking about stopping medical benefits, retirement funds are in secure trusts, not accessible to corporations.

The stupidty is that the company did not foresee the changes and make the necessary adjustments over time, but instead had to deal with one crisis after another. In other words they did not understand the changing world market. The greed is the powerful UAW virtually forcing GM and other auto makers to agree to benefit programs far above other large employers, far more costly and helping to place GM in a non competitive postion in the world. Not to mention programs that keep people who have no job on the payroll for years do nothing productive.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;921313 wrote: Who said anythng about stealing retirememnt funds? We were talking about stopping medical benefits, retirement funds are in secure trusts, not accessible to corporations.

The stupidty is that the company did not foresee the changes and make the necessary adjustments over time, but instead had to deal with one crisis after another. In other words they did not understand the changing world market. The greed is the powerful UAW virtually forcing GM and other auto makers to agree to benefit programs far above other large employers, far more costly and helping to place GM in a non competitive postion in the world. Not to mention programs that keep people who have no job on the payroll for years do nothing productive.


Yeah but GM had already complied with the demands of fuel efficiency in Europe...Why?...Because it sold...How is it that they've produced fuel efficient vehicles by the thousands in Europe yet haven't in America?...

Stupidity has nothing to do with it...

K.Snyder;923807 wrote: Yeah but GM had already complied with the demands of fuel efficiency in Europe...Why?...Because it sold...How is it that they've produced fuel efficient vehicles by the thousands in Europe yet haven't in America?...

Stupidity has nothing to do with it...


Well, I am waiting for the answer, if GM knows how to do things right and it's not the greedy union why is GM in such deep trouble? They must have missed something along the way.

Their costs are too high and their products are not what people want to buy these days, so what went wrong?

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;923844 wrote: Well, I am waiting for the answer, if GM knows how to do things right and it's not the greedy union why is GM in such deep trouble? They must have missed something along the way.

Their costs are too high and their products are not what people want to buy these days, so what went wrong?


Their lazy workers...

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;923844 wrote: ...and it's not the greedy union why is GM in such deep trouble?


It was the greedy union...They've got too much union...Too much union allowing for lazy workers to take advantage of it hence why you see foreign based opposition stealing all of the market whilst their dollar is gaining more prevalence by the Big Mack bite...

K.Snyder;924771 wrote: It was the greedy union...They've got too much union...Too much union allowing for lazy workers to take advantage of it hence why you see foreign based opposition stealing all of the market whilst their dollar is gaining more prevalence by the Big Mack bite...


How are foreign based competition stealing all the market? Are people forced to buy foreign cars or something? Is it still a foreign car if manufactured in the US?

Maybe the real culprit is all your patriotic countrymen that won't buy American cars because they're rubbish compared to the foreign makes they have as an alternative. How about you-the clothes you are wearing where were they made? how many textile workers have you helped put out of a job buying those cheap imports.

GM the american British Leyland how can you not love it?

gmc;925248 wrote: How are foreign based competition stealing all the market? Are people forced to buy foreign cars or something? Don't take me literally...They're "stealing" the market in a sense that it's much easier for foreign based car manufacturers to sustain profits because of their non unions...foreign car manufacturers' primary virtue is to base their plants in areas where employment is in high demand ultimately decreasing their susceptibility to workers unionizing...It's the unions that's hurting GM...Too many people want an extra 2 weeks vacation because their damn toe hurts...

gmc;925248 wrote: Is it still a foreign car if manufactured in the US? Yes...The day they keep all of their profits in the US economy is the day I look at them as being a US manufacturer...And I do realize there are US manufacturing facilities abroad...Just like the GM cars produced in European countries are foreign to them...

gmc;925248 wrote: Maybe the real culprit is all your patriotic countrymen that won't buy American cars because they're rubbish compared to the foreign makes they have as an alternative. Not entirely...The primary causes that GM waited too long to produce fuel efficient vehicles...The "Maybe the real culprit is all your patriotic countrymen that won't buy American cars because they're rubbish compared to the foreign makes they have as an alternative." is just the effect instigated by the cause...The cause being GMs' greed and their over anxious union...

gmc;925248 wrote:

How about you-the clothes you are wearing where were they made? how many textile workers have you helped put out of a job buying those cheap imports.

I didn't...I helped secure the jobs of those in other countries that made the clothes that I'm wearing...

K.Snyder;926158 wrote: Don't take me literally...They're "stealing" the market in a sense that it's much easier for foreign based car manufacturers to sustain profits because of their non unions...foreign car manufacturers' primary virtue is to base their plants in areas where employment is in high demand ultimately decreasing their susceptibility to workers unionizing...It's the unions that's hurting GM...Too many people want an extra 2 weeks vacation because their damn toe hurts...

Yes...The day they keep all of their profits in the US economy is the day I look at them as being a US manufacturer...And I do realize there are US manufacturing facilities abroad...Just like the GM cars produced in European countries are foreign to them...

Not entirely...The primary causes that GM waited too long to produce fuel efficient vehicles...The "Maybe the real culprit is all your patriotic countrymen that won't buy American cars because they're rubbish compared to the foreign makes they have as an alternative." is just the effect instigated by the cause...The cause being GMs' greed and their over anxious union...

I didn't...I helped secure the jobs of those in other countries that made the clothes that I'm wearing...


I don't see why you are worried. GM makes fuel efficient cars in europe because they have to I assume they didn't in the US because they saw no need. GM will survive in one form or another but maybe the problem with GM USA is they have never had to face up to competition on their own ground before with a buying public that has learned to expect improvements all the time and just assumed people would buy their cars just because they were american. relaxing pollution and economy (correct me if I'm wrong) regulation for SUV's and the like didn't help.

If you have to face competition hiding from it just puts off the inevitable so does kidding yourselves that there isn't going to be a shortage of oil in the not too distant future or that the world owes you a living. The european car industry got blootered by the japanese now it more than holds it's own and the japanese are worried about the koreans and chinese. I can buy a korean car made in bratislavia or a suzuki made in India or a german ford with a british engine.

I find myself contemplating buying a chevrolet. As an american I'm sure you can't appreciate how really really naff a brand that is here. It's made in Korea but having owned renaults and citroens I want one that doesn't fall to bits.

Blaming the unions is a cop out-a way of dodging the responsibility of management failing to mange properly.

They're "stealing" the market in a sense that it's much easier for foreign based car manufacturers to sustain profits because of their non unions...foreign car manufacturers' primary virtue is to base their plants in areas where employment is in high demand ultimately decreasing their susceptibility to workers unionizing


So the workers on foreign plant are somehow going to accept poor conditions? Once the plant is built and the investment made they have the same hold as a worker in a GM plant- the ultimate right to go on strike and cost the employer profits. Employers tend to get the sort of union they dserve.

gmc;927930 wrote: I don't see why you are worried. GM makes fuel efficient cars in europe because they have to I assume they didn't in the US because they saw no need. GM will survive in one form or another but maybe the problem with GM USA is they have never had to face up to competition on their own ground before with a buying public that has learned to expect improvements all the time and just assumed people would buy their cars just because they were american. relaxing pollution and economy (correct me if I'm wrong) regulation for SUV's and the like didn't help. I'm not worried in the way you might think I am...K.Snyder;919254 wrote: GM makes up for a very large portion of jobs in Dayton, Ohio and we're seeing the effects associated with GMs' short sidedness...

Is my main concern...Dayton is already riddled with crime...I'm nothing but sincere when I tell you if I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time in Dayton I will get my head blown off...Myself living two miles from Dayton I do not need more people unemployed within this region...

I know GM is bigger than many may realize...

K.Snyder;919254 wrote: [...]

But GM's going no where...They still have the American name...They've just waited for the last possible moment to shift their automobile marketing practices...




gmc;927930 wrote:

If you have to face competition hiding from it just puts off the inevitable so does kidding yourselves that there isn't going to be a shortage of oil in the not too distant future or that the world owes you a living. The european car industry got blootered by the japanese now it more than holds it's own and the japanese are worried about the koreans and chinese. I can buy a korean car made in bratislavia or a suzuki made in India or a german ford with a british engine. Hopefully we come up with an alternative fuel source that is much healthier not only for the planet but for us...

gmc;927930 wrote:

I find myself contemplating buying a chevrolet. As an american I'm sure you can't appreciate how really really naff a brand that is here. It's made in Korea but having owned renaults and citroens I want one that doesn't fall to bits. I build and maintain my own vehicles from parts that I know are sufficient...I can build any vehicle and have it run better than anyone else for $10,000 cheaper...Well not myself personally but my family and friends...We know our cars...

Cars breaking down to increase more profits by manufacturing "repairs" is another topic...

gmc;927930 wrote:

Blaming the unions is a cop out-a way of dodging the responsibility of management failing to mange properly. Only a cop-out if I were only blaming the unions...Not the case...



gmc;927930 wrote:

So the workers on foreign plant are somehow going to accept poor conditions? Once the plant is built and the investment made they have the same hold as a worker in a GM plant- the ultimate right to go on strike and cost the employer profits. Employers tend to get the sort of union they dserve. Nah...Foriegn plants (Plants within the USA derived from other countries in this case) don't take any sh!t...John doe wants two weeks vacation for a hurt toe - John doe gets booted...