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I think we're heading into an age of pure uncertainty...

Our kids and their kids are probably going to have to work their entire lives with no luxury of retirement...

Something needs to be done and it needs to be done now...

Bush isn't helping one damn bit that's for sure...

Scrat;873866 wrote: I don't think you can lay all of the blame at his feet. He's just part of an aristocracy that is very well entrenched and all but in total control of this country. He is dumb as a sack of hammers though.

We need to change and we need to change quickly, we need a new means of getting around other than fossil fuels. We have to go to electric cars, nuclear power, solar and wind. Anyone who tries to step in the way, enviornmentalists, big oil, anyone - needs to disappear.

We have all of the technology we need available to us. We have the resources, we simply don't have the will to do it now and I doubt we have the means to do it quickly, this means we are going to be suffering for awhile. It may get bad and if we do nothing you may be right. I always knew we were living at the expense of our children.


Well the economy has been about as low as any with the exception of the doings of his fathers administration and the two aren't coincidence...

Thanks Scrat - interesting piece

Do I think we're starting late - Yes

we will need everyone at 100 % effort for change in the life we have now.

We are headed towards very tough times and if you haven't experienced real tough times well, you'll have to go thru it without you Escalade.

We will get back to basics, and everyone's at fault - from trashing the world with litter thru the '70's to the high tech growth we demand to getting Bush for president.

if Ford can invent the Model T in the '20's - I'm hoping one invents/comes up with a major breakthrough so we never have to rely on oil.

I've been poor - I don't want to go thru a tough time - depression

the situation we're is very scary to me -

I had a major shock at the Grocery Store yesterday - prices - a jar of our dill pickles Scrat $4.00 are you kidding me, for a off label store brand. I'm frugal and good at it , everything has jumped high in price - some doubled and $$.

Future is scary right now

Patsy

Well if illegal immigration was taken care of everyone would get tax breaks...Which would ultimately help in stimulating the economy...

There's more here than meets the eye...

When you go back to your old neighborhood and all you see are people of Latino decent and you live 1500 miles from the country in which they came...You have a problem...

Scrat

I have question - is this a possibility:

Could the US have tons of oil stashed and chose not to get into to it?

Reason for the question

We have this tunnel built back in the / started '60's - the "Alaskian Pipeline"

Here's the oil ? not a drop running thru this million dollar Tunnel - it's empty ??

The Government is big on TESTS is this a test - is this going to work off some of Bush's deficate ?

I think too much - menapuse:wah:

Patsy

I think that our modern Western civilization is undoubtedly facing its greatest crisis, with the rapid and calamitous destabilization of the global climate, the end of the 60 year economic boom in lifestyles based on burning vast quantities of unreplaceable oil, the increasing global population (which can only be fed using intensive modern agriculture based on (you guessed it) oil), and the extremely conflictual geopolitical situation in general that is starting to emerge, it really is wake up and look around time.

This is particularly true in America, as Western economic-, resource-, and now military-superiority is ending, and thats something that American's have taken for granted since WW II, but we are going to have to thing a lot harder about how we organize ourselves and make some serious changes to our societies or they will simply collapse, or be overcome by fitter, stronger ones over the coming decades; the nightmare is that nations turn on each other using nuclear weapons as they fight for these dwindling resources that they are using up in a completely unsustainable way. That of course would be the end of us all, and its probably going to become a more likely scenario than at any time since 1963. That's my tuppence.

Scrat;873869 wrote: I think the economy is suffering because of globalization, what do we do here? What do we make? Our heavy industry is all but non existant. We will almost have to start from scratch or be at the mercy from non domestic sources. This has been US policy for a long time, the policy of more than one president. It's ongoing. The tax cuts for the rich need to be stopped, the military needs to be cut, put the money into making our country self reliant again.


Sounds much like the UK Scrat. Much of our manufacturing has gone to China.



We are too used to cheap consumer goods now......wonder how we'd feel if we had to pay more ...... we're such a wasteful and throwaway bunch of people now. We all like a bargain, but as a society we're failing to look 'long term'.



Know a lot of it is political and caused by corruption, but look at the situation in Italy....run out of land fill sites....nowhere for the rubbish.

Patsy Warnick;873870 wrote: Thanks Scrat - interesting piece



Do I think we're starting late - Yes

we will need everyone at 100 % effort for change in the life we have now.

We are headed towards very tough times and if you haven't experienced real tough times well, you'll have to go thru it without you Escalade.



We will get back to basics, and everyone's at fault - from trashing the world with litter thru the '70's to the high tech growth we demand to getting Bush for president.



if Ford can invent the Model T in the '20's - I'm hoping one invents/comes up with a major breakthrough so we never have to rely on oil.



I've been poor - I don't want to go thru a tough time - depression

the situation we're is very scary to me -



I had a major shock at the Grocery Store yesterday - prices - a jar of our dill pickles Scrat $4.00 are you kidding me, for a off label store brand. I'm frugal and good at it , everything has jumped high in price - some doubled and $$.



Future is scary right now



Patsy


You're right Patsy...same 'over here' . Everything is costing more and taxes are going up.....while mine are anyway.....hate paying taxes on my pension which i saved up for for 30 years.....I have to work part time just to cover this..... .



One thing that I must praise over here in the UK is our Health Service which is virtually free. I have recently had some cardiac problems which would have cost a fortune without the NHS.

Bez;873910 wrote: You're right Patsy...same 'over here' . Everything is costing more and taxes are going up.....while mine are anyway.....hate paying taxes on my pension which i saved up for for 30 years.....I have to work part time just to cover this..... .



One thing that I must praise over here in the UK is our Health Service which is virtually free. I have recently had some cardiac problems which would have cost a fortune without the NHS.


Your Health Service is virtually free? I hear Americans say the same thing in support of a federal government run program.

I don't think you mean free, I think you mean you don't know what it really costs because you have little or no out of pocket cost and the true cost is burried within the taxes you pay which I suspect may go beyond simply a tax on your income.

Galbally;873908 wrote: I think that our modern Western civilization is undoubtedly facing its greatest crisis, with the rapid and calamitous destabilization of the global climate, the end of the 60 year economic boom in lifestyles based on burning vast quantities of unreplaceable oil, the increasing global population (which can only be fed using intensive modern agriculture based on (you guessed it) oil), and the extremely conflictual geopolitical situation in general that is starting to emerge, it really is wake up and look around time.

This is particularly true in America, as Western economic-, resource-, and now military-superiority is ending, and thats something that American's have taken for granted since WW II, but we are going to have to thing a lot harder about how we organize ourselves and make some serious changes to our societies or they will simply collapse, or be overcome by fitter, stronger ones over the coming decades; the nightmare is that nations turn on each other using nuclear weapons as they fight for these dwindling resources that they are using up in a completely unsustainable way. That of course would be the end of us all, and its probably going to become a more likely scenario than at any time since 1963. That's my tuppence.


Right you are my friend, I tried to convey that in another post and was accused of bashing America. We indeed have to change our mindset and think globally. It can be done and successfully for all, but only time will tell if the West and America in particular have the ability to do so. We are in the minority and still act like we hold all the cards. I truly worry about the world my grandchildren and their children will face.

PS Have a pint for me, wish I were there.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;874140 wrote: Your Health Service is virtually free? I hear Americans say the same thing in support of a federal government run program.

I don't think you mean free, I think you mean you don't know what it really costs because you have little or no out of pocket cost and the true cost is burried within the taxes you pay which I suspect may go beyond simply a tax on your income.


I think I read that the British NHS is run at a fraction of the cost of the American system, and is able to provide universal healthcare for 58 million people. Its certainly not fallable, but my experience of it was it was excellent. In Ireland we have a kinda mixed mandatory health insurance + free medical care for the poor, unfortunatly the system has become completely overloaded and is rubbish compared even to the NHS. From Europeans I know who have lived in America, their take on it is that the Health system is run like a very profitable corporation over there, and its very lucrative if you happen to run the thing. Also it provides very good care if you can pay very good money, but if you can't then basically you are screwed.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;874141 wrote: Right you are my friend, I tried to convey that in another post and was accused of bashing America. We indeed have to change our mindset and think globally. It can be done and successfully for all, but only time will tell if the West and America in particular have the ability to do so. We are in the minority and still act like we hold all the cards. I truly worry about the world my grandchildren and their children will face.

PS Have a pint for me, wish I were there.


Sure, but its not just the US, we have all become utterly dependent on fossil fuels for basic survival almost, and we are in a terribly difficult situation once they become scarce.

Its going to take a huge, an absolutely huge, change in how we run our societies if we are to get through the coming problems, but then we have the climate destabilizing at the same time, at this stage I am not sure anyone will be able to cope with all of these things at once, though I sense that the penny is starting to drop about the true implications of these problems.

In fact if anything, places like China and India have even worse problems, as their main problem in the coming decades is going to be simply finding enough food for their massive and continually increasing populations, which is going to become increasingly difficult as the environment and climate on that side of the world also deteriorates.

Galbally;874148 wrote: Sure, but its not just the US, we have all become utterly dependent on fossil fuels for basic survival almost, and we are in a terribly difficult situation once they become scarce. Its going to take a huge, an absolutely huge change in how we run our societies if we are to get through the coming problems, but then we have the climate destabilizing at the same time, as well as other issues, at this stage I am not sure it will be possible to cope with all of these things at once, though I sense that the penny is starting to drop about the implications of these problems. In fact if anything, places like China and India have even worse problems, as their main problem in the coming decades is going to be simply finding enough food for their massive and continually increasing populations, which is going to become increasingly difficult as the environment and climate on that side of the world also deteriorates.


I believe you are right, but that does not bode well for any of us, wars have been fought over a lot less. In the years ahead we will all be competing for ever limited resources.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;874218 wrote: I believe you are right, but that does not bode well for any of us, wars have been fought over a lot less. In the years ahead we will all be competing for ever limited resources.


Yes certainly, unless there is a sea-change in attitude in regard to living with the means that the planet provides for us, which means an acceptance that population control is essential. We have to decouple ourselves from our addiction to fossil fuels, and generally adopt economic practices that are not based on the utterly profligate use of energy, food, water, and land resources in the interest of the annual earnings of companies with no loyalty or interest in the wellbeing of the citizens of any country (including the US).

Therefore, what we need to do is to dramatically change the lassre faire attitude to society we have adopted in the English-Speaking world, which is actually tearing our societies apart, based on this belief that the markets will solve all the problems we have (they won't, and society is not a marketplace, the market is a function of a society, not the other way around, all the unfettered, blind market will ultimately do is create a jungle where the strong and the fast survive, great for strictly business matters, but disasterously bad for the wider and deeper issues within human societies). We need to regain the sense that we are citizens, not consumers, and we need to take responsibility collectively for what is happening, through poltical channels, before this debate becomes academic.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;874140 wrote: Your Health Service is virtually free? I hear Americans say the same thing in support of a federal government run program.



I don't think you mean free, I think you mean you don't know what it really costs because you have little or no out of pocket cost and the true cost is burried within the taxes you pay which I suspect may go beyond simply a tax on your income.


Correct.....it's paid for via National Insurance contributions which also pay towards our State Pension.... my point is that people with serious health issues can have very expensive treatment without having to fork out serious money. Many people over here do have private health insurance and I have private insurance for Dental care....mainly because the treatment is of a better quality and It is very hard to get a NHS dentist over here.

K.Snyder;873871 wrote: Well if illegal immigration was taken care of everyone would get tax breaks...Which would ultimately help in stimulating the economy...

There's more here than meets the eye...

When you go back to your old neighborhood and all you see are people of Latino decent and you live 1500 miles from the country in which they came...You have a problem...


I don't think I can agree with you here.

The US economy has been operating at close to capacity for some time now. Any increase in demand would have been translated directly into inflation because if existing plant doesn't have the capacity to product more then supply and demand dictates that prices will go up (or demand will be satisfied by importing more which is even worse).

If you take the current situation and remove the black market labour from the immigrant pool and the economy takes the step over the line into operating beyond its capacity and is in serious difficulty.

The other side of the equation is the level of consumer activity - something like 70% of the US economy is consumer led and, up until now, it has been holding up surprisingly well given the collapse of the housing market. Remove the spend from the immigrant community and you'll see a drop in retail sales that would do further damage.

You say that "if illegal immigration was taken care of everyone would get tax breaks", but the budget (for what it's worth given it's so far out of balance) is built on the expectation of a given level of tax income. Remove the sales tax from the immigrant spend and the corporation tax from the work done by the immigrants and the tax requirement from those of you that are left would increase, not decrease.

The problems you are seeing now are due to the credit crisis following the sub-prime mortgage debacle, the inflationary pressures resulting from the oil and commodity price rises and the economy haemorrhaging money due to the war.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;874140 wrote: Your Health Service is virtually free? I hear Americans say the same thing in support of a federal government run program.

I don't think you mean free, I think you mean you don't know what it really costs because you have little or no out of pocket cost and the true cost is burried within the taxes you pay which I suspect may go beyond simply a tax on your income.


The phrase Bez intended to use was "free at point of provision". Of course we pay for it - it is a cost to society and ultimately comes out of the national budget which we all pay in to. It is also a benefit to society in a healthier workforce that we, as a society, chose to pay.

Bryn Mawr;876759 wrote: I don't think I can agree with you here.

The US economy has been operating at close to capacity for some time now. Any increase in demand would have been translated directly into inflation because if existing plant doesn't have the capacity to product more then supply and demand dictates that prices will go up (or demand will be satisfied by importing more which is even worse).

If you take the current situation and remove the black market labour from the immigrant pool and the economy takes the step over the line into operating beyond its capacity and is in serious difficulty.

The other side of the equation is the level of consumer activity - something like 70% of the US economy is consumer led and, up until now, it has been holding up surprisingly well given the collapse of the housing market. Remove the spend from the immigrant community and you'll see a drop in retail sales that would do further damage.

You say that "if illegal immigration was taken care of everyone would get tax breaks", but the budget (for what it's worth given it's so far out of balance) is built on the expectation of a given level of tax income. Remove the sales tax from the immigrant spend and the corporation tax from the work done by the immigrants and the tax requirement from those of you that are left would increase, not decrease.

The problems you are seeing now are due to the credit crisis following the sub-prime mortgage debacle, the inflationary pressures resulting from the oil and commodity price rises and the economy haemorrhaging money due to the war.


I'll agree the war is not helping things...

But what you have to realize is that the illegal immigrant population is way more than anyone suspects, and these people do not return that money back into the system...They send it home back to their family's who haven't gained access into this country illegally...

K.Snyder;877648 wrote: I'll agree the war is not helping things...

But what you have to realize is that the illegal immigrant population is way more than anyone suspects, and these people do not return that money back into the system...They send it home back to their family's who haven't gained access into this country illegally...


The money being drained from the system be being sent out of the country is one issue but a relatively minor one - multi-nationals do it far more efficiently that any group of immigrants could ever do. BTW, it's not just limited to illegals as plenty of legal immigrants send money home too.

The more important factor is that they work and they spend. The work that they do increases the capacity of the system to generate money and thus keeps inflation down and the spend generates taxes (70% of the US economy is consumer spending so this is a more important factor than it may at first appear).

Scrat;877652 wrote: There's a lot of money that goes back to Mexico. There are a lot of illegals that take our services for nothing and give nothing in return. Snyder is right in that respect and there is solid evidence to back it up.

I do see your side Bryn but would not the economy adjust itself? I don't know what it is like in Britain, how bad is immigration there? I hear it is bad.


They cannot give nothing in return - they have to live (unless you are saying that none of the illegal immigrants are working and they all live off state benefits).

Immigration is fairly high here (as is emigration). As to illegal immigration, figures vary (they are illegal after all and therefore not registered) with many counting totally legal immigrants to add to the effect.

Scrat;879568 wrote: Bryn. I never really looked at the stats but it is a well known fact that the state of California is billions of dollars it is a largely Hispanic population, they do not pay for their medical care and they do not like to pay taxes either. I'm not saying that Hispanics are bad people, they are like anyone else and in some ways better than some Europeans I know, they just have a more socialist mindset.

This war in Iraq is dragging us down too. All of the money we are borrowing from the Chinese could be used to get our infrastructure in order and do a whole lot of R&D.


I don't quite see the English of the highlighted section but "well known facts" often turn out to be urban legends - I would suggest that you do really look at the stats, you might well be surprised.

Bryn Mawr;879452 wrote: The money being drained from the system be being sent out of the country is one issue but a relatively minor one - multi-nationals do it far more efficiently that any group of immigrants could ever do. BTW, it's not just limited to illegals as plenty of legal immigrants send money home too.

The more important factor is that they work and they spend. The work that they do increases the capacity of the system to generate money and thus keeps inflation down and the spend generates taxes (70% of the US economy is consumer spending so this is a more important factor than it may at first appear).


Oh I know that it's relatively a small concern in the face of the overall economy but my concerns lay in the government continuing to ignore it as a threat...The legal immigrants are citizens and they pay taxes on all of their income which the illegal immigrants don't...Which I'm sure you know but this has developed into a form of dream fulfillment for practically every Mexican born in Mexico...I have no problem with people trying to make a better living for themselves...I like people...But when they do it at the expense of others it upsets me...I would absolutely have no problem in lowering my standard to allow more people to create better lives for themselves so my lack of approval isn't a matter of losing my ability to sustain an income that I wouldn't otherwise be in fear of...

They don't spend money when it comes to most labor jobs that purely receives a profit without the need for more equipment and this is the types of jobs they thrive for...Roofing is a primary example...Practically every roofing job demands material but almost every roofing company expects that the person vying for a new roof buy the material before work can begin ultimately leaving the entire operation from the business owners perspective void of taxes...I agree that most illegal immigrants cannot live their lives without at least giving some of that money back into the system by taxes but for the most part most of everything they make goes back to Mexico...Like their own retirement plan for going back to Mexico where $5 US money can buy them two meals when you practically can't get one for $5 here...