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“Repay to the living that it is they find themselves owing the dead

This phrase is part of an article “Coming to Terms with Vietnam documented in Harpers by Peter Marin, Dec. 1980. http://www.harpers.org/archive/1980/12/0024455

"All men, like all nations, are tested twice in the moral realm: first by what they do, then by what they make of what they do. The condition of guilt, a sense of one's own guilt, denotes a kind of second chance. Men are, as if by a kind of grace, given a chance to repay to the living that it is they find themselves owing the dead.""

This quotation rang my bell on the first time that I read it and has continued to resonate for me each time that it comes to mind.

Morality is, I am convinced, one of the most important concepts in human existence. It is vitally important and, I suspect, almost completely mystifying to the average Joe and Jane. It certainly is mystifying to me.

Understanding the meaning of this concept is vital for our welfare as a species and I am convinced that we must do a better job of comprehending its meaning.

I think it would be worth while to analyze the above quotation in an effort to develop a meaningful comprehension of aspects that make up morality. But there are many important moral aspects within this quotation and I think we must focus upon only one at a time. I would like to examine, in particular, the phrase “repay to the living that it is they find themselves owing the dead

Cognitive science, often in the form of cognitive semantics, provides us with a means for comprehending the nature of morality.

Cognitive science has discovered that “the source domains of our [linguistic] metaphors for morality are typically based on what people over history and across cultures have seen as contributing to their well being.

Morality is primarily seen as a concept that focuses upon enhancing the well-being of others. Cognitive analysis revels that we comprehend morality “based on this simple list of elementary aspects of human well-being—health, wealth, strength, balance, protection, nurturance, and so on.

“Well-Being is Wealth is not our only metaphorical conception of well-being, but it is a component of one of the most important moral concepts we have. It is the basis for a massive metaphor system by which we understand our moral interactions, obligations, and responsibilities. That system, which we call the Moral Accounting metaphor, combines Well-Being is Wealth with other metaphors and with various accounting schemas.

Our moral understanding is often manifested in commonly used metaphors. To do bad to someone is like taking something of value from that person. To do good to someone is like giving something of value to that person. “Increasing others’ well-being gives you a moral credit; doing them harm creates a moral debt to them; that is, you owe them an increase in their well-being-as-wealth.

We are dealing with moral considerations much as we do with financial matters. We maintain a mental balance sheet upon which we record debits and credits of moral dimensions.

Morality is about many things and one thing morality is about is reciprocation, which means paying back to others what we owe to them because of something good they did for us. On the flip-side of that is something we call revenge. Revenge is about our feelings that if Mary Ann does something mean to me then I owe her something mean back.

Morality is partly about our moral accounting system. We seem to have a moral balance sheet in our head and we are often careful to pay back ‘good with good’ and ‘bad with bad’.

Ideas and quotes from “Philosophy in the Flesh—Lakoff and Johnson

Do you think that it is possible to make a moral payback to John, who died in the war, by doing a moral good such as helping the nation to become a better democracy?

Do you think that it is possible to make a moral payback to John, who died in the war, by doing a moral good such as helping the nation to become a better democracy?

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Its better for self, family and society when we can if not undo wrong but alter behavior for future happenings.

Feeling guilt or sorrow for past transgressions is void of meaning if its not a lesson learned for future moral decisions.

Hideous behavior may or may not be forgiven by the victim but certainly everyone else benefits if the offender has rearranged his/her outlook towards what is not acceptable for society.

On a personal level I believe most of us are capable of true immoral retribution but by the same token we posess a moral soul that provides change otherwise wed be a a sociopathic society.

Many of societies problems stem from immoral govt transgressions that seem to be void of being capable of a lesson learned. History repeating itself.

Nomad;751741 wrote: Do you think that it is possible to make a moral payback to John, who died in the war, by doing a moral good such as helping the nation to become a better democracy?

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Many of societies problems stem from immoral govt transgressions that seem to be void of being capable of a lesson learned. History repeating itself.


In a society such as the United States do you think that the citizens are responsible for the actions of the nation? In a democracy can their be an imoral society without also having an imoral citizenry?

coberst;751883 wrote: In a society such as the United States do you think that the citizens are responsible for the actions of the nation? In a democracy can their be an imoral society without also having an imoral citizenry?




In theory yes but its too big, too overwhelming and too complicated and deceptive and illusory to grasp and comprehend.

We vote in earnest but our vote is negated by politicking and powerful lobbying.

Hope is naive and replaced with contempt when we find out whats good for the community was traded for a vote for someones agenda whatever that might be.

As a nation I believe we are moral. Thats apparent in the homes that dot the streets that make up the cities spread throughout our country.

We work hard and try to do right but we live in this machine that seems to be out of grasp.

It has no ears.

Nomad;752128 wrote: In theory yes but its too big, too overwhelming and too complicated and deceptive and illusory to grasp and comprehend.

We vote in earnest but our vote is negated by politicking and powerful lobbying.

Hope is naive and replaced with contempt when we find out whats good for the community was traded for a vote for someones agenda whatever that might be.

As a nation I believe we are moral. Thats apparent in the homes that dot the streets that make up the cities spread throughout our country.

We work hard and try to do right but we live in this machine that seems to be out of grasp.

It has no ears.


I think that you are confusing our acts of heroism with our acts of morality. Acts of heroism are done to enhance self-esteem; acts of morality are done for another’s well-being.

Morality as it relates to our behavior is important on three levels.

1. To ensure fair play and harmony between individuals.

2. To help make us good people in order to have good society.

3. To keep us in a good relationship with the power that created us.

Based on this, it's clear that our beliefs are critical to our moral behavior.

Morality describes the principles that govern our behavior without these principles in place,societies cannot survive for long. It's today's world, morality is frequently thought of as belonging to a particular religious point of view, but by defention, we see thaat this is not the case. Everyone adheres to a moral doctrine of some kind. What is yours??

Tater Tazz;752245 wrote: Morality as it relates to our behavior is important on three levels.

1. To ensure fair play and harmony between individuals.

2. To help make us good people in order to have good society.

3. To keep us in a good relationship with the power that created us.

Based on this, it's clear that our beliefs are critical to our moral behavior.

Morality describes the principles that govern our behavior without these principles in place,societies cannot survive for long. It's today's world, morality is frequently thought of as belonging to a particular religious point of view, but by defention, we see thaat this is not the case. Everyone adheres to a moral doctrine of some kind. What is yours??


I do not adhere to any doctrine. At least consciously I do not. I was raised as a Catholic and I suspect there are still some nuns running around in my head telling me to be a good boy and stop talking in school.

coberst;752228 wrote: I think that you are confusing our acts of heroism with our acts of morality. Acts of heroism are done to enhance self-esteem; acts of morality are done for another’s well-being.


True acts of heroism are selfless.

Acts of morality define whats in ones heart and the path ones mind takes.

Its neither selfish nor selfless.

I copied this from the Internet

12/1980. Dealing with guilt.

"Coming to Terms with Vietnam," by Peter Marin, Harpers, December 1980, 41-56. "The real issue, to put it bluntly, is guilt: how, as a nation and as individuals, we perceive our culpability and determine what it requires of us. We must concern ourselves with the discovery of fact, the location of responsibility, the discussion of causes, the acknowledgment of moral debt and how it might be repaid -- not in terms of who supposedly led us astray, but in terms of how each one of us may have contributed to the war or to its underlying causes. The 'horror' of war is really very easy to confront; it demands nothing of us save the capacity not to flinch. But guilt and responsibility, if one takes them seriously, are something else altogether. For they imply a debt, something to be done, changed lives -- and that is much harder on both individuals and a nation, for it implies a moral labor as strenuous and demanding as the war that preceded it." (Includes a survey of films and fiction) [SFX]

Nomad;751741 wrote: Do you think that it is possible to make a moral payback to John, who died in the war, by doing a moral good such as helping the nation to become a better democracy?

_____________________________



Its better for self, family and society when we can if not undo wrong but alter behavior for future happenings.

Feeling guilt or sorrow for past transgressions is void of meaning if its not a lesson learned for future moral decisions.

Hideous behavior may or may not be forgiven by the victim but certainly everyone else benefits if the offender has rearranged his/her outlook towards what is not acceptable for society.

On a personal level I believe most of us are capable of true immoral retribution but by the same token we posess a moral soul that provides change otherwise wed be a a sociopathic society.

Many of societies problems stem from immoral govt transgressions that seem to be void of being capable of a lesson learned. History repeating itself.:yh_clap :yh_clap

coberst;751883 wrote: In a society such as the United States do you think that the citizens are responsible for the actions of the nation? In a democracy can their be an imoral society without also having an imoral citizenry?
Morality is a personal thing, imo, and is strongly linked with responsibility. It becomes weak with distance and is easily diluted. The more remote an issue, people, or conflict is, the easier it becomes to be immoral, to act immorally. Likewise, the more people involved in the decision to act, the easier it is to deny direct responsibility; it becomes easier to blame the group for immorality rather than oneself.



So, the larger the group, the harder it becomes to maintain a moral stance.