Right then, the British woman at the centre of this ridiculous case in the Sudan has been found guilty of insulting Islam because she allowed her class to name the class teddy bear "Mohammed". She didn't choose the name and it seems her sentence is based on the fact that she simply allowed them to choose this name for the beloved little furball. So for this despicable offence she has been sentenced to 15 days jail and deportation from the Sudan. Several leading clerics in the country condemmed her for her role in the "war on terrorism" her "insulting of Islam" and god knows what else. This is despite the fact that half the male population in most Islamic countries are called mohammed, and its common for Children to call pets this name.
It could be worse as the maximum penalty was apparently 40 lashes, a fine, and 6 months prison.
So lets put this into perspective. This would be akin to a visiting Muslim Teacher in Britain being charged, and jailed for allowing her christian children to call the School Gerbil (or something) Jesus the Gerbil. Were such a thing to be even thought of by anyone it would be considered ridiculous and deeply wrong. What the reaction would be in the Islamic world could only be guessed at.
It seems to me that if anyone should be brought up on charges of bringing Islam into disrepute its the judicary and religious leaders of Sudan for their crass intolerance and bigotry toward someone who was obviously not trying to insult them and their venerable ideas. If this represents the anti-western hysteria in some minds in the region then all I can say is shame on them.
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
I wonder if the child or children who suggested the name aren't liable, or if they were setting her up?
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
YZGI;728146 wrote: I wonder if the child or children who suggested the name aren't liable, or if they were setting her up?
No the kids were kindergarten age or similar, apparently it came to light because a parent complained to the school as each child was allowed to bring the teddy home (they live in Sudan and don't have much so its a treat) and then write a little story about their adventures.
This has now become an international incident, this whole current thing about cultural offence being taken (or claimed to be taken) at the slightest provocation has really become ridiculous.
No the kids were kindergarten age or similar, apparently it came to light because a parent complained to the school as each child was allowed to bring the teddy home (they live in Sudan and don't have much so its a treat) and then write a little story about their adventures.
This has now become an international incident, this whole current thing about cultural offence being taken (or claimed to be taken) at the slightest provocation has really become ridiculous.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
I'm so glad they didn't go for the harsher penalties!
I know there is a big thing about not having any idols built or something. I've never understood how it works exactly. My brother won't allow paintings with humans in them on his walls but they can have landscapes. His kids have teddies and such and play with Barbies or Brats dolls... I'm not sure how they define the line. That's the tough thing about such laws. People can offend without knowing that it is an offense.
I know there is a big thing about not having any idols built or something. I've never understood how it works exactly. My brother won't allow paintings with humans in them on his walls but they can have landscapes. His kids have teddies and such and play with Barbies or Brats dolls... I'm not sure how they define the line. That's the tough thing about such laws. People can offend without knowing that it is an offense.
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
Yeah, unfortunatly there have been mass demonstrations today in Khartoum by thousands of armed friday prayer worshippers angry at the leniency of the sentence, and called for this woman to be shot by firing squad. No doubt they have been whipped up by local clerics into a state of self-righteous hysteria. Well, thats what the Sudanese government get for being so stupid in allowing this situation to get this far. I just hope the demonstrators don't get their hands on her or the poor woman won't last long. :-5
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
I can’t tell you how sick and angry this makes me. If I get started on this I won’t stop. These backwards religions and countries are an insult to themselves.
There should be a lesson to any good hearted westerners such as this woman who clearly went there in good will to provide an education to these children, and that lesson is don’t go anywhere near these countries, don’t support them, do nothing to help make them stronger. They are the evil of the world and they do it in the name of their god.
There should be a lesson to any good hearted westerners such as this woman who clearly went there in good will to provide an education to these children, and that lesson is don’t go anywhere near these countries, don’t support them, do nothing to help make them stronger. They are the evil of the world and they do it in the name of their god.
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
I don't think I would go as far as calling Islam in the abstract a backward religion, as I think thats an intemperate generalization, as it seems to me to be no better or worse than most of the other religions, (though it ain't my cup of tea), but certainly I have very little sympathy for this nonsensical, biogeted, theocratic and to be honest medival outlook that seems to be passing for informed opinion amoung many Muslim clerics and their followers these days in certain countries.
That they are given such huge influence in their own countries kinda beggars belief for someone brought up in a (relatively) secualr country (and Ireland was even considered a theocracy in the old days so we know a donkey when we see it). Its obvious that this woman's crime was to be a white western christian in Sudan at the wrong place and the wrong time, it doesn't say a lot for mutual tolerance does it?
That they are given such huge influence in their own countries kinda beggars belief for someone brought up in a (relatively) secualr country (and Ireland was even considered a theocracy in the old days so we know a donkey when we see it). Its obvious that this woman's crime was to be a white western christian in Sudan at the wrong place and the wrong time, it doesn't say a lot for mutual tolerance does it?
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
SlipStream
- Posts: 17508
- Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:46 am
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
it's madness.. ya can't say nowt without offending some1...
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
galbally:-6
I'm in agreement with you here.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I'm in agreement with you here.
Shalom
Ted:-6
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
I wonder if any of the children have been punished? Or their parents?
It is, afterall, their religion... what were those parents thinking of to raise those kids thinking they could name the bear that?
It is, afterall, their religion... what were those parents thinking of to raise those kids thinking they could name the bear that?
Who are they to protest me? Who are they? Unless they've been me and been there and know what the hell they're yelling about!
:yh_glasse
rambo
:yh_glasse
rambo
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
grh;730284 wrote: I wonder if any of the children have been punished? Or their parents?
It is, afterall, their religion... what were those parents thinking of to raise those kids thinking they could name the bear that?
Hey that's a very good point....!
It is, afterall, their religion... what were those parents thinking of to raise those kids thinking they could name the bear that?
Hey that's a very good point....!
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
Meanwhile, Mrs Gibbons's son and daughter were able to speak to their mother on the phone on Friday.
John Gibbons, 27, from Liverpool, told Associated Press his mother was "holding up quite well" and did not want the situation to spark "resentment" towards Muslims or the Sudanese people.
"You know, that's not the type of person she is, that's not what she wants," he added.
source
She's been living among the culture and this is how the woman, herself, feels about her own situation.
John Gibbons, 27, from Liverpool, told Associated Press his mother was "holding up quite well" and did not want the situation to spark "resentment" towards Muslims or the Sudanese people.
"You know, that's not the type of person she is, that's not what she wants," he added.
source
She's been living among the culture and this is how the woman, herself, feels about her own situation.
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
This is another example of extremism. Unfortunately Islam does not have a monopoly on extremism. It is to be found in every religion in the world.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
KHARTOUM (AFP) — Sudanese President Omar al-Beshir is on Monday to meet two British peers seeking a pardon for a woman teacher jailed for insulting religion after they extended their mercy mission to bring her home.
Lord Nazir Ahmed and Baroness Sayeeda Warsi, Muslims from Britain's upper house of parliament, have shuttled between cabinet ministers and officials for two days trying to secure an amnesty for Gillian Gibbons, jailed for 15 days.
"The president will receive the British delegation tomorrow at 0730 GMT," Mahjoub Fadl Badri, Beshir's press secretary, told AFP.
He said the meeting would take place at the presidential palace in Khartoum, speaking after the British peers told reporters in a luxury hotel that they had decided to delay their departure over signs of progress.
"We will not be leaving tomorrow (Monday) morning at 5 am as we hoped," Warsi told reporters, vowing to stay on while hope remained for success.
"Some progress has been made. As a result of that progress and what we're hoping to achieve, we will not be leaving," she said, having spent the day waiting for a meeting with Beshir.
Sudan's president alone has the the power to pardon Gibbons, who was convicted on Thursday over allowing pupils at an exclusive English school in Khartoum, where Islamic Sharia law is enforced, to name a teddy bear Mohammed.
Ahmed, who said they had the support of Prime Minister Gordon Brown for their mission, said their intervention was "very important because first we are British, we are parliamentarians, and we are Muslims.
"We understand the situation and the culture of this part of the world and we also understand our culture and our norms and customs, and by playing this important role we think that we can offer help."
He said it was a "very critical time" and declined to elaborate on the difficulties encountered so far in order not to jeopardise Gibbons's fate.
Thousands of people demonstrated on Friday after the main Muslim prayers in Khartoum, the conservative capital of the former British colony, against what they considered Gibbons's lenient sentence, with some calling for her death.
Being found guilty of insulting religion and inciting hatred in Sudan is punishable by up to six months in prison, 40 lashes and a fine.
"We've had quite a number of meetings today. Probably some of the toughest meetings we've had so far," Warsi told reporters.
Earlier she said concerns about the teacher's well-being lifted after they met her on Saturday at the secret location where she is being incarcerated.
"I was concerned about her safety and her security and her well-being and as I left I was satisfied on all grounds," Warsi told AFP. "She's doing well, she's in good spirits considering the last seven days."
Gibbons herself issued a statement obtained by Britain's Channel 4 News television saying she was being well looked after.
"I'm really sad to leave and if I could go back to work tomorrow then I would," said Gibbons, who is due to be deported at the end of her sentence on December 9 if the peers fail to take her home earlier.
She was jailed for allowing primary school pupils in the Christian-run Unity High School to give the bear the same name as the Muslim prophet -- also a very popular boys' name -- as part of a school project.
Her arrest and jail sentence sparked outrage in Britain and a diplomatic crisis between London and Khartoum, which has strained relations with the West largely over nearly five years of war in Darfur.
Foreign Secretary David Miliband has put the episode down to an "innocent misunderstanding" and has twice summoned Sudan's ambassador to London.
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jhZ ... 6IYNAsqSCA
lets all hope this poor woman is freed
Lord Nazir Ahmed and Baroness Sayeeda Warsi, Muslims from Britain's upper house of parliament, have shuttled between cabinet ministers and officials for two days trying to secure an amnesty for Gillian Gibbons, jailed for 15 days.
"The president will receive the British delegation tomorrow at 0730 GMT," Mahjoub Fadl Badri, Beshir's press secretary, told AFP.
He said the meeting would take place at the presidential palace in Khartoum, speaking after the British peers told reporters in a luxury hotel that they had decided to delay their departure over signs of progress.
"We will not be leaving tomorrow (Monday) morning at 5 am as we hoped," Warsi told reporters, vowing to stay on while hope remained for success.
"Some progress has been made. As a result of that progress and what we're hoping to achieve, we will not be leaving," she said, having spent the day waiting for a meeting with Beshir.
Sudan's president alone has the the power to pardon Gibbons, who was convicted on Thursday over allowing pupils at an exclusive English school in Khartoum, where Islamic Sharia law is enforced, to name a teddy bear Mohammed.
Ahmed, who said they had the support of Prime Minister Gordon Brown for their mission, said their intervention was "very important because first we are British, we are parliamentarians, and we are Muslims.
"We understand the situation and the culture of this part of the world and we also understand our culture and our norms and customs, and by playing this important role we think that we can offer help."
He said it was a "very critical time" and declined to elaborate on the difficulties encountered so far in order not to jeopardise Gibbons's fate.
Thousands of people demonstrated on Friday after the main Muslim prayers in Khartoum, the conservative capital of the former British colony, against what they considered Gibbons's lenient sentence, with some calling for her death.
Being found guilty of insulting religion and inciting hatred in Sudan is punishable by up to six months in prison, 40 lashes and a fine.
"We've had quite a number of meetings today. Probably some of the toughest meetings we've had so far," Warsi told reporters.
Earlier she said concerns about the teacher's well-being lifted after they met her on Saturday at the secret location where she is being incarcerated.
"I was concerned about her safety and her security and her well-being and as I left I was satisfied on all grounds," Warsi told AFP. "She's doing well, she's in good spirits considering the last seven days."
Gibbons herself issued a statement obtained by Britain's Channel 4 News television saying she was being well looked after.
"I'm really sad to leave and if I could go back to work tomorrow then I would," said Gibbons, who is due to be deported at the end of her sentence on December 9 if the peers fail to take her home earlier.
She was jailed for allowing primary school pupils in the Christian-run Unity High School to give the bear the same name as the Muslim prophet -- also a very popular boys' name -- as part of a school project.
Her arrest and jail sentence sparked outrage in Britain and a diplomatic crisis between London and Khartoum, which has strained relations with the West largely over nearly five years of war in Darfur.
Foreign Secretary David Miliband has put the episode down to an "innocent misunderstanding" and has twice summoned Sudan's ambassador to London.
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jhZ ... 6IYNAsqSCA
lets all hope this poor woman is freed
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
Galbally;728137 wrote:
So lets put this into perspective. This would be akin to a visiting Muslim Teacher in Britain being charged, and jailed for allowing her christian children to call the School Gerbil (or something) Jesus the Gerbil. Were such a thing to be even thought of by anyone it would be considered ridiculous and deeply wrong. What the reaction would be in the Islamic world could only be guessed at.
It seems to me that if anyone should be brought up on charges of bringing Islam into disrepute its the judicary and religious leaders of Sudan for their crass intolerance and bigotry toward someone who was obviously not trying to insult them and their venerable ideas. If this represents the anti-western hysteria in some minds in the region then all I can say is shame on them.
Maybe a Muslim teacher in Spain - Jesus is a common name out there
It truly does bring Islam into disrepute.
So lets put this into perspective. This would be akin to a visiting Muslim Teacher in Britain being charged, and jailed for allowing her christian children to call the School Gerbil (or something) Jesus the Gerbil. Were such a thing to be even thought of by anyone it would be considered ridiculous and deeply wrong. What the reaction would be in the Islamic world could only be guessed at.
It seems to me that if anyone should be brought up on charges of bringing Islam into disrepute its the judicary and religious leaders of Sudan for their crass intolerance and bigotry toward someone who was obviously not trying to insult them and their venerable ideas. If this represents the anti-western hysteria in some minds in the region then all I can say is shame on them.
Maybe a Muslim teacher in Spain - Jesus is a common name out there
It truly does bring Islam into disrepute.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
It troubles me that some think it's okay because "it's their law." The day we stop questioning authority and stop questioning the validity and sense of laws is a dangerous day indeed.
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
RedGlitter;731550 wrote: It troubles me that some think it's okay because "it's their law." The day we stop questioning authority and stop questioning the validity and sense of laws is a dangerous day indeed.
It's not so much questioning the validity of the law as questioning one countries right to dictate how another country should conduct its affairs.
I agree that it's a tight call to make but I do think that the balance is not right as it stands - that cases where we should intervene are being ignored and cases where we have no business intervening are being actioned and that the deciding factor is politics and not ethics.
It's not so much questioning the validity of the law as questioning one countries right to dictate how another country should conduct its affairs.
I agree that it's a tight call to make but I do think that the balance is not right as it stands - that cases where we should intervene are being ignored and cases where we have no business intervening are being actioned and that the deciding factor is politics and not ethics.
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
RedGlitter;731550 wrote: It troubles me that some think it's okay because "it's their law." The day we stop questioning authority and stop questioning the validity and sense of laws is a dangerous day indeed.
But it is their law and she is a visitor to their country. Just a regular citizen, not a diplomat. If someone comes to the US to visit, we expect them to obey our laws whether or not they agree with them.
That doesn't mean we can't say it stinks when we think it stinks. We just can't expect them to change their law for us anymore then we would care to change our laws to suit them.
But it is their law and she is a visitor to their country. Just a regular citizen, not a diplomat. If someone comes to the US to visit, we expect them to obey our laws whether or not they agree with them.
That doesn't mean we can't say it stinks when we think it stinks. We just can't expect them to change their law for us anymore then we would care to change our laws to suit them.
Who are they to protest me? Who are they? Unless they've been me and been there and know what the hell they're yelling about!
:yh_glasse
rambo
:yh_glasse
rambo
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
That's true, grh, but I'm thinking that someplace outside the line of respecting legality, there has to be some general consensus when a thing is wrong. Booting her out of the country -even though I think it's crazy and overreacting- I can see; but their first idea of whipping her for this petty crazy offense surely has to be seen by most reasonable people as wrong, no? 
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
The first I ever heard of this law that there could be no idol or hmm what was it that no human face could be put up as a picture on a wall something like this was when I was about 20. I met some American women who had married into the Islam faith and were so happy btw, not sure why but I remember they were, and then explained to me how they couldn't engage in what we all were doing because of this. Honestly wish I could remember what it was.
I have definite first reactions to this story. First I wonder what motivates a Christian to try to spread the word in an Islamic country. I realize Christians are driven by a messianic attitude, that this is the mission of many Christians, but personally I think this woman feels good about being there, llike she is doing something important and will take the consequences for her choices.
Secondly I'm very confused and angry how there was this armed movement in the streets objecting to her light sentence. Armed??? Hah! Hey, give me a gun, I want to revolt in the streets! :rolleyes:
What motivated these guys to be so adamant about her not getting a light sentence? Were they jealous? I'm thinking that maybe the kind of punishment this woman could have gotten is such the norm there that it could be compared to if the mayor's daughter here in the US was getting off for some charge that would have brought a few nights in the county jail for the rest of us?
Maybe they felt she was getting off the hook. I'm not familiar with 40 lashes punishment myself. They could be using chamoise-sp? cloth for the deed for all I know. But that is the punishment of this particular region and while I think it's a hideous one, obviously my opinion wouldn't count much over in the Sudan.
Lastly this whole scenario makes me fruistrated at being so far away from the land, culture, religion, people to make any real conclusion. Even from all the articles, books, first hand accounts out there, excellent portrayals of what's happening no doubt, I still wonder why I feel so distant from the problems experienced over "there". And if I went there in flesh and blood and lived there, wonder what my feelings would hold?
So bottom line is I don't know how I feel about this probably. Seems so outrageous from an outsiders perspective but I don't actually know what's going through the minds of the people.
Oh, and that's a good point about why would the kinder suggest this name if this law was such an important part of their upbringing. Pretty simple one to teach a kid I'd think.
Erin
I have definite first reactions to this story. First I wonder what motivates a Christian to try to spread the word in an Islamic country. I realize Christians are driven by a messianic attitude, that this is the mission of many Christians, but personally I think this woman feels good about being there, llike she is doing something important and will take the consequences for her choices.
Secondly I'm very confused and angry how there was this armed movement in the streets objecting to her light sentence. Armed??? Hah! Hey, give me a gun, I want to revolt in the streets! :rolleyes:
What motivated these guys to be so adamant about her not getting a light sentence? Were they jealous? I'm thinking that maybe the kind of punishment this woman could have gotten is such the norm there that it could be compared to if the mayor's daughter here in the US was getting off for some charge that would have brought a few nights in the county jail for the rest of us?
Maybe they felt she was getting off the hook. I'm not familiar with 40 lashes punishment myself. They could be using chamoise-sp? cloth for the deed for all I know. But that is the punishment of this particular region and while I think it's a hideous one, obviously my opinion wouldn't count much over in the Sudan.
Lastly this whole scenario makes me fruistrated at being so far away from the land, culture, religion, people to make any real conclusion. Even from all the articles, books, first hand accounts out there, excellent portrayals of what's happening no doubt, I still wonder why I feel so distant from the problems experienced over "there". And if I went there in flesh and blood and lived there, wonder what my feelings would hold?
So bottom line is I don't know how I feel about this probably. Seems so outrageous from an outsiders perspective but I don't actually know what's going through the minds of the people.
Oh, and that's a good point about why would the kinder suggest this name if this law was such an important part of their upbringing. Pretty simple one to teach a kid I'd think.
Erin
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
watermark;731680 wrote: The first I ever heard of this law that there could be no idol or hmm what was it that no human face could be put up as a picture on a wall something like this was when I was about 20. I met some American women who had married into the Islam faith and were so happy btw, not sure why but I remember they were, and then explained to me how they couldn't engage in what we all were doing because of this. Honestly wish I could remember what it was.
It's the same rule for us - no idols. the Puritans had the same interpretation of the rule to include no representations of God back in the seventeenth century and they went around destroying much of the existing religious artwork of the time.
watermark;731680 wrote: I have definite first reactions to this story. First I wonder what motivates a Christian to try to spread the word in an Islamic country. I realize Christians are driven by a messianic attitude, that this is the mission of many Christians, but personally I think this woman feels good about being there, llike she is doing something important and will take the consequences for her choices.
I'm not sure that she was trying to spread the word in this case (although I agree that it happens all too often) - she was just teaching.
watermark;731680 wrote: Secondly I'm very confused and angry how there was this armed movement in the streets objecting to her light sentence. Armed??? Hah! Hey, give me a gun, I want to revolt in the streets! :rolleyes:
What motivated these guys to be so adamant about her not getting a light sentence? Were they jealous? I'm thinking that maybe the kind of punishment this woman could have gotten is such the norm there that it could be compared to if the mayor's daughter here in the US was getting off for some charge that would have brought a few nights in the county jail for the rest of us?
Maybe they felt she was getting off the hook. I'm not familiar with 40 lashes punishment myself. They could be using chamoise-sp? cloth for the deed for all I know. But that is the punishment of this particular region and while I think it's a hideous one, obviously my opinion wouldn't count much over in the Sudan.
An awful lot of this is to do with the internal politics of the area. The motivation was a single hard line cleric whipping his boys into a frenzy and sending them out after Friday prayers. It was a move aimed at putting pressure on the more moderate elements in the judiciary rather than an attempt to force the death penalty. I believe that the poor woman is a pawn in an ongoing fight rather than a cause in herself.
watermark;731680 wrote:
Lastly this whole scenario makes me fruistrated at being so far away from the land, culture, religion, people to make any real conclusion. Even from all the articles, books, first hand accounts out there, excellent portrayals of what's happening no doubt, I still wonder why I feel so distant from the problems experienced over "there". And if I went there in flesh and blood and lived there, wonder what my feelings would hold?
So bottom line is I don't know how I feel about this probably. Seems so outrageous from an outsiders perspective but I don't actually know what's going through the minds of the people.
[quote=watermark;731680] Oh, and that's a good point about why would the kinder suggest this name if this law was such an important part of their upbringing. Pretty simple one to teach a kid I'd think.
Erin
The kids were not even remotely thinking religion - Mohammed was their mate in the next class, not the prophet. With so many boys sharing the name kids at that age do not see its use as exclusive.
It's the same rule for us - no idols. the Puritans had the same interpretation of the rule to include no representations of God back in the seventeenth century and they went around destroying much of the existing religious artwork of the time.
watermark;731680 wrote: I have definite first reactions to this story. First I wonder what motivates a Christian to try to spread the word in an Islamic country. I realize Christians are driven by a messianic attitude, that this is the mission of many Christians, but personally I think this woman feels good about being there, llike she is doing something important and will take the consequences for her choices.
I'm not sure that she was trying to spread the word in this case (although I agree that it happens all too often) - she was just teaching.
watermark;731680 wrote: Secondly I'm very confused and angry how there was this armed movement in the streets objecting to her light sentence. Armed??? Hah! Hey, give me a gun, I want to revolt in the streets! :rolleyes:
What motivated these guys to be so adamant about her not getting a light sentence? Were they jealous? I'm thinking that maybe the kind of punishment this woman could have gotten is such the norm there that it could be compared to if the mayor's daughter here in the US was getting off for some charge that would have brought a few nights in the county jail for the rest of us?
Maybe they felt she was getting off the hook. I'm not familiar with 40 lashes punishment myself. They could be using chamoise-sp? cloth for the deed for all I know. But that is the punishment of this particular region and while I think it's a hideous one, obviously my opinion wouldn't count much over in the Sudan.
An awful lot of this is to do with the internal politics of the area. The motivation was a single hard line cleric whipping his boys into a frenzy and sending them out after Friday prayers. It was a move aimed at putting pressure on the more moderate elements in the judiciary rather than an attempt to force the death penalty. I believe that the poor woman is a pawn in an ongoing fight rather than a cause in herself.
watermark;731680 wrote:
Lastly this whole scenario makes me fruistrated at being so far away from the land, culture, religion, people to make any real conclusion. Even from all the articles, books, first hand accounts out there, excellent portrayals of what's happening no doubt, I still wonder why I feel so distant from the problems experienced over "there". And if I went there in flesh and blood and lived there, wonder what my feelings would hold?
So bottom line is I don't know how I feel about this probably. Seems so outrageous from an outsiders perspective but I don't actually know what's going through the minds of the people.
[quote=watermark;731680] Oh, and that's a good point about why would the kinder suggest this name if this law was such an important part of their upbringing. Pretty simple one to teach a kid I'd think.
Erin
The kids were not even remotely thinking religion - Mohammed was their mate in the next class, not the prophet. With so many boys sharing the name kids at that age do not see its use as exclusive.
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
It's just been on the news that she has been released :-6
I am nobody..nobody is perfect...therefore I must be Perfect!
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
Pardonned by the President of Sudan. But she has to leave the country.
Lesson: it's fine and no insult to call your sons some version of the prophet's name, even if they are nasty, snivelling, obnoxious brats - but for heavens sake get with the strength and call dear old lovable teddy bear Teddy or Aloysius.
Lesson: it's fine and no insult to call your sons some version of the prophet's name, even if they are nasty, snivelling, obnoxious brats - but for heavens sake get with the strength and call dear old lovable teddy bear Teddy or Aloysius.
"Life is too short to ski with ugly men"
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SlipStream
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British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
bout time nall.
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
Thank God, or Allah, or Jehova whatever his name is! :rolleyes:
Seriously though just to refer to something Koan said, I don't think that pointing out that this situation was wrong is not being resentful about Islam or other countries cultures or traditions, its just being honest and stating an opinion. In the same way that people castigate Mr Bush for his policy in Iraq but don't insinuate that all of American culture is "wrong" or shoud be changed. It works both ways IMO. I never suggested that the laws of Sudan should be dictated by Britain or that Gordon should be resurrected (dangerous Christian imagery there) and sent back to Khartoum to deal with the situation in the time honoured fashion.
I was just stating an opinion that this whole fiasco was a terrible indictment of the Sudanese Judiciary and governemnt and also does demonstrate some of the more extreme intolerance that is current amoung many Islamic Clerics in the region. As if we needed more examples. That doesn't mean that there aren't similar opinions and unsavory people in all religions and governments, but when a case is so ridiculous it should be discussed without fear of "offending" people, because sometimes you need to offend people a little to make them think a bit harder about their prejudices.
Seriously though just to refer to something Koan said, I don't think that pointing out that this situation was wrong is not being resentful about Islam or other countries cultures or traditions, its just being honest and stating an opinion. In the same way that people castigate Mr Bush for his policy in Iraq but don't insinuate that all of American culture is "wrong" or shoud be changed. It works both ways IMO. I never suggested that the laws of Sudan should be dictated by Britain or that Gordon should be resurrected (dangerous Christian imagery there) and sent back to Khartoum to deal with the situation in the time honoured fashion.
I was just stating an opinion that this whole fiasco was a terrible indictment of the Sudanese Judiciary and governemnt and also does demonstrate some of the more extreme intolerance that is current amoung many Islamic Clerics in the region. As if we needed more examples. That doesn't mean that there aren't similar opinions and unsavory people in all religions and governments, but when a case is so ridiculous it should be discussed without fear of "offending" people, because sometimes you need to offend people a little to make them think a bit harder about their prejudices.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
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freetobeme
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:05 pm
British Teacher found guilty of insulting Islam
Bryn Mawr;731556 wrote: It's not so much questioning the validity of the law as questioning one countries right to dictate how another country should conduct its affairs.
I guess we should remember that the next time the U.N. or whoever wants go into Darfur or elsewhere.
The old Beeb was having a grand time downplaying the mob's reaction outside the jail did you know the crowd around the jail was pretty 'good natured' even as they shouted "Death to anyone who insults Islam" Wonder what the folks at the BBC are smoking
Oh well, it's all about peace and love, just a couple of extremists abusing a wonderful religion. Well our politicians, the BBC and CBC types keep telling us so, so it must be true.
I guess we should remember that the next time the U.N. or whoever wants go into Darfur or elsewhere.
The old Beeb was having a grand time downplaying the mob's reaction outside the jail did you know the crowd around the jail was pretty 'good natured' even as they shouted "Death to anyone who insults Islam" Wonder what the folks at the BBC are smoking
Oh well, it's all about peace and love, just a couple of extremists abusing a wonderful religion. Well our politicians, the BBC and CBC types keep telling us so, so it must be true.
senior's politics and discussion