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I have this friend of 20 + years who is about 70. She is helping raise her platonic roommate's 12 year old daughter, M. For a year now I have listened to nothing but p.issing and moaning about M and what a rotten kid she is. I have shuddered when Friend has told me about how she handles this girl. M does poorly in school and gets into fights with other girls. She ignores Friend and her own father until Friend gets mad and smacks her. Friend refers to M to me as "the brat" and "that damn kid." You have to know if she's saying that to me that she's saying it at home too.

Earlier this year, M was late coming home from the bus stop so Friend took a belt down there and in front of her friends, beat M with it. She will never live that down in front of those friends.

This week I was told how Friend broke a fake nail while slapping M. I think you'd have to hit pretty hard to do that; I used to wear those things.

I asked her if she ever tried just talking to M and she looked at me like I was an idiot.

M's dad tells me M doesn't mind and when I commented that M didn't have too much to say when she was at my place, her dad told me she didn't talk to him much either.

I found out this week that M has issues over having been abandoned by her mom four years ago. That tells me a lot.

Friend says how M is failing all her classes and how she doesn't learn anything in school. It was said as if M were stupid. I told Friend I would tutor M in anything except math. if it might help. Again she looked at me like I was wasting my time.

I've seen M twice. She comes across as a brat- a quiet one. And maybe it's just me seeing myself but I'm not buying it. You have to milk this girl to get two words out of her as if either she thinks she's too dumb to offer anything or else she's afraid of saying anything.

She's 12 and I dread what's coming her way because Friend isn't going to make it easy when guys and stuff start happening. Or girl stuff.

I mentioned all this to another friend who loves children and she immediately was all over it saying I needed to call Child Protective Services or to give her the info and she would take care of it and they would remove M from the home.

I've no intention of doing this. I've seen how CPS destroys lives and I am not that much of a busybody that I'm going to rat on anyone. Where do I draw the line? If cigarettes were being put out on her it would be a different story but what about being hit all the time? I'm trying to sort out right from wrong and I'm coming up blank. I used to get hit on a regular basis and was no stranger to the belt. I know the degradation that comes from p.issing all over yourself because someone bigger than you hit you repeatedly with something meant to hold up their pants.

I know that deer in headlight stare she gets when adults talk to her.

I know beating her is wrong and when you're hitting someone with a belt, I don't care who wants to defend this, it's called beating. Period.

I haven't told my other friend that I am not ratting and I am not giving her the information. What if they yank her away from her dad? What if she ends up in a worse place than she is now? What she needs is an adult to advocate for her, a safe place to go but she has none that I am aware of.

I asked Friend "do you and M ever get along?" She said "sometimes."

My friend is not a crazy maniac but she lives in chronic pain from a bone disease and that can mess a person up plus I think she's too old and inflexible to be raising an almost teenaged girl.

I'm not going to rat.

But would you?

Pinky;682410 wrote: To be honest, I'd have to sit your friend and M's father down and tell her that what she's doing is child abuse and it's never to be tolerated. I'd make it clear that if she doesn't stop doing this, then I'd report her. It might be enough to make her think about what she's doing.

Does she realised the emotional and psychological effects she's having? No child should have to live with sort of behaviour. At the end of the day, why isn't her father stepping in? There's no way I'd allow any child - even if they're not mine - to live with that.




i'd have to100% with the pinkster on this one





no kid deserves to be beaten ever :mad:

Maybe I'm too black and white, but I wouldn't even sit them down to talk. I'd report that, at the very least to a school counselor. The child is obviously being abuse, both physically and emotionally, and that's on top of the abandonment issues she's already suffering from.

I am with jimbo , I would and have threatened one of my sister in law's that I would report her if she did not stop the abuse of her children , my brother and I fell out for a couple of years ( we are OK now ) but it was worth it , the abuse stopped

I'm not going to rat.


IMO, you are just as guilty as the abuser, to know these facts and choose to sit back and do nothing RedGlitter. If she were a dog, you'd be jumping into action to rescue her, wouldn't you? Why let this child live under these conditions when you have the power to do something about it???

Mustang;682473 wrote: IMO, you are just as guilty as the abuser, to know these facts and choose to sit back and do nothing RedGlitter. If she were a dog, you'd be jumping into action to rescue her, wouldn't you? Why let this child live under these conditions when you have the power to do something about it???


Glitter hunny, I would definately report this. There is no excuse for abuse.

Here it's the law, if you suspect abuse you are obligated to report it.

Glitter she is a 12 year old girl, there is no hope of this improving, what could happen is this girl could turn it around and be an abuser herself and likely will be one day stronger then your Friend.

M is learning abuse, and will use abuse if this is not corrected. M needs councelling, she needs somebody to listen to her, and guide her in a way that isn't going to hurt her and is positive.

M may come off as a brat but I guarantee you this Glitter, it's her way of defense, it is her coping skill albiet weak ones, but she is a kid, kids take years to develope coping skills and they aren't always what adults expect. No kid should have to go through this Glitter. M has issues as does your friend and the father, they all need intervention before it is too late.

A child is nothing but moldable, see how your friend and her father are molding her.... not good.

It sounds like everyday is a episode for this girl

Some type of intervention is needed for this situation (family) - sounds like this girl won't talk/doesn't talk since it won't be right anyway..

Are there other relatives available to help? - take the girl in, before she runs away.

Your friend is not capable nor in the right frame of mind to raise a 12 year old.

Red - you'll have to come to terms with this & know you'll have to do something.

Reach out to the school counselor etc.

Your a compassionate person & you know you need to do something

now is a good time to step in..

Good luck

Patsy

Glitter hun, think of it this way,

and I am not directing this at anyone in a negative way

We see abuse to an animal we are all over making a call to have the animal removed from the abusive situation.

What makes a human life any less valuable.



Glitter report it please. I am certain you can remain anonymous.

Mustang;682473 wrote: IMO, you are just as guilty as the abuser, to know these facts and choose to sit back and do nothing RedGlitter. If she were a dog, you'd be jumping into action to rescue her, wouldn't you? Why let this child live under these conditions when you have the power to do something about it???


Careful there with the animals and the guilt assignment please.

As I explained, CPS destroys lives more than it helps them. If they yank this kid away from her only remaining parent, how is that not going to Fk her up worse?! What if they let her stay and Friend thinks the girl turned her in? More belt? I'm saying there are worse situations that could befall her than the one she is in now. Plus I don't live there to see everything. I think my other friend's kneejerk reaction to yank this girl from her home was overreactive to say the least.

I have zero faith in social services, them being one of the most useless organizations ever in my experience and if I made things worse for M, I would not be forgiving myself.

How much abuse is acceptable? Is that what it comes down to? People beat their kids with belts all the time and few scream "CPS!" So why is this different? Can anyone explain this to me, why people hitting their kids is considered "discipline" (even though Red screams about that) and okay to do but suddenly I'm guilty too if I don't turn this woman in?

Now do you see why I'm torn? What kind of yardstick are we using here??

Not trying to sound harsh, I've been turning this over for days now.

Yes I'd report an abused animal because we all know you don't hit animals. It's not because I think one is more valuable than the other. But it's okay to hit kids because adults tell us it is. See the BS in that? Parents b*tch that when they grew up they got beaten repeatedly *and look how good they turned out.* You know it's true, you've heard them yourselves.

Friend is due over here any minute now and I wonder if she will bring M. I know she resents raising a child at this age (70) and I don't blame her but I do blame her for the crappy way she's doing it.

Comments were made about M being a brat but I swear I can see right through that. Firsthand. All that is is self preservation.

I keep thinking there must be something I don't know about, don't understand, because why else would her father allow this? He alluded to the fact she needs to be treated like this because she doesn't respond otherwise. Kind of like my dad

used to say "If I didn't hit you, you wouldn't listen!"

That's another thing. I don't want to overreact because I see shades of my own past life happening here. That would not be good. If I were in a different place, I would attempt to be that safe place I mentioned but I can't.

I would definitely report it and as Minks says you can remain anonymous.

When the child gets removed from the home the social generally ask if there are any family or friends that would be able to take her in.

My Auntie and Uncle where in the same situation about 2 years ago and took 2 little girls in both sister's one 4 and one 18 months, they also were not sure what to do but they did the right thing by reporting the parents as the parents have now been found guilty and the 2 little girls are having the best lives. :-6

No one should have to be abused

RED

Sounds like the Father has blinders on - and all maybe ok when Father is around.

The Fathers not putting any thought into why his daughter is quiet, with drawn and strikes out onto other kids at school - pure frustration.

Father & Daughter are still mourning the loss of the mother

Have they had any counseling for th loss?

Red, at the very least - talk to Father & Daughter, the school counselor, are they aware of the mother loss here?

As far as the yard stick to determine abuse - this friend brought a belt out in front of all her friends & whipped her in public...

If I had seen that - I would've stopped that women - it wouldn't happen in front of me. Can you imagine what goes on behind closed doors???

Patsy

RedGlitter;682539 wrote: Careful there with the animals and the guilt assignment please.

As I explained, CPS destroys lives more than it helps them. If they yank this kid away from her only remaining parent, how is that not going to Fk her up worse?! What if they let her stay and Friend thinks the girl turned her in? More belt? I'm saying there are worse situations that could befall her than the one she is in now. Plus I don't live there to see everything. I think my other friend's kneejerk reaction to yank this girl from her home was overreactive to say the least.

I have zero faith in social services, them being one of the most useless organizations ever in my experience and if I made things worse for M, I would not be forgiving myself.

How much abuse is acceptable? Is that what it comes down to? People beat their kids with belts all the time and few scream "CPS!" So why is this different? Can anyone explain this to me, why people hitting their kids is considered "discipline" (even though Red screams about that) and okay to do but suddenly I'm guilty too if I don't turn this woman in?

Now do you see why I'm torn? What kind of yardstick are we using here??

Not trying to sound harsh, I've been turning this over for days now.

Yes I'd report an abused animal because we all know you don't hit animals. It's not because I think one is more valuable than the other. But it's okay to hit kids because adults tell us it is. See the BS in that? Parents b*tch that when they grew up they got beaten repeatedly *and look how good they turned out.* You know it's true, you've heard them yourselves.

Friend is due over here any minute now and I wonder if she will bring M. I know she resents raising a child at this age (70) and I don't blame her but I do blame her for the crappy way she's doing it.

Comments were made about M being a brat but I swear I can see right through that. Firsthand. All that is is self preservation.

I keep thinking there must be something I don't know about, don't understand, because why else would her father allow this? He alluded to the fact she needs to be treated like this because she doesn't respond otherwise. Kind of like my dad

used to say "If I didn't hit you, you wouldn't listen!"

That's another thing. I don't want to overreact because I see shades of my own past life happening here. That would not be good. If I were in a different place, I would be attempt to be that safe place I mentioned but I can't.


I call BS nobody needs that

RED

if this friend is on her way over - heres your chance to have a serious talk..!!

I understand completely how some of this mirrors your youth - mine too.

Please let us know what transpires.

Patsy

Friend and the father are here now. M is in school.

This woman does a lot for us since my mom died. I feel like a total hypocrite in considering reporting her. I hope someone understands that.

She is going in for hip replacement day after tomorrow so I don't think she'll have it in her to be hitting anyone for awhile.

Patsy, the mom bailed on both the husband and M. Hasn't bothered to see her kid since. I expect the school knows about it somewhat. Friend is always the one to go to the conferences and other parental stuff. The dad doesn't seem to go. I don't know about any counseling. I doubt it.

Setting these two down and talking to them- impossible. This is like stepping on the toes of your 70 year old proper southern grandma. Just ain't happening. I'm still a kid in this woman's eyes.

I don't see how you can not do something about this.

The physical hurt is bad enough but the psychological / emotional damage being done is far, far, worse.

If you don't want to bring the CPS into this then at least discuss your worries with the school and tell them what you've seen and heard. They will then be in a good position to assess the situation and react to it.

It isn't ratting on a friend, it's protecting an innocent child from harm.

Ask yourself if you could live with yourself if one day this child got seriously hurt and died.

You are an adult, she is a child with no one on her side and probably feeling like she's all alone in this world.

Seriously hurt? No, it won't be going that far. I do know my friend better than that. What she thinks is discipline and what I think is abuse may be the same thing but she is not going to kill this child. She is not a monster.

If I reported her to CPS and M was yanked away from her father and ended up killing herself, then I wouldn't be able to live with myself.

Funny when I was growing up my dad beat me in public sometimes in front of their friends or our family and no one did a damned thing but turn their heads.

I managed to grow up with minimal issues and I'm thinking this girl will too. So the damage is already done. If someone had stood up for me, then maybe I would see what everyone else here is saying. As it is, all I see is that adults showed me you mind your own business. That's a very hard thing to change on the fly.

It's abuse. I do spank my kids, but a belt is never used. I was abused with a belt, they leave vicious marks. I'm surprised no one at the school has not seen any bruises on her. Slapping is also abuse, it's degrading and just wrong.

Red why don't you try taking M out on girls day out and just talking to her. I think once you crack through her shell, you'll be able to discuss what has been going on. She needs someone now to help her through her difficult times, and I think you being a close friend and confidant would help her now.

Ok let's straighten something out. I am "sitting back" because I am unwilling to do something that may cost her her only parent, may put her in a worse home (there is no family that I know of) or may bring heat onto her. Good God. I'm not the one mistreating her and I am not "just as bad as" the person who is because I haven't flown down to CPS and demanded action, or else I wouldn't have asked for anyone's opinion on this to start with. In the end it's my call and I'll make it as I see fit but I didn't think it would hurt to ask here. I've been told once already today that it's the worst thing I could do, to report it. I can't afford to take this lightly either way.

RedGlitter;682608 wrote: Ok let's straighten something out. I am "sitting back" because I am unwilling to do something that may cost her her only parent, may put her in a worse home (there is no family that I know of) or may bring heat onto her. Good God. I'm not the one mistreating her and I am not "just as bad as" the person who is because I haven't flown down to CPS and demanded action, or else I wouldn't have asked for anyone's opinion on this to start with. In the end it's my call and I'll make it as I see fit but I didn't think it would hurt to ask here. I've been told once already today that it's the worst thing I could do, to report it. I can't afford to take this lightly either way.


Glitter you boast how "good" Friend is, will the "system" not see that when they take "all things" into consideration. You have a lot of may happen, and maybe's when you talk about "the system". Nothing is for sure. I see your point you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I suppose our opinions here in FG are all reflective of what services we have and how they work according to demographics. Myself I was stating what is law here. No attack aimed at you personally.

I know Minks. I know you would never say anything to upset me. It's just that I'm trying to figure out what is best for me to do here and it seems It's been decided I'm as bad as the one mistreating her. I don't think that's fair at all.

I am normally a hasty, impulsive person. I do things first and according to feelings then sort it all out later. When it only involves me or another adult that's one thing but this is a 12 year old directly involved. I have to weigh everything. The CPS out here sucks. There may be exceptions but as a rule, they're pretty sorry.

Susie, being sorry you feel you need to say that doesn't make it right. I thought more of you than that. But whatever. I'm not going to be part of making anything personal. I brought a problem here and am getting all kinds of replies. Sorry replies as well as good ones. If you want to make it personal then I cannot stop you.

RedGlitter;682608 wrote: Ok let's straighten something out. I am "sitting back" because I am unwilling to do something that may cost her her only parent, may put her in a worse home (there is no family that I know of) or may bring heat onto her. Good God. I'm not the one mistreating her and I am not "just as bad as" the person who is because I haven't flown down to CPS and demanded action, or else I wouldn't have asked for anyone's opinion on this to start with. In the end it's my call and I'll make it as I see fit but I didn't think it would hurt to ask here. I've been told once already today that it's the worst thing I could do, to report it. I can't afford to take this lightly either way.


Unfortunately Glitter, that would be exactly peoples thoughts here in this city. That may be where all the anger from others is coming from. Again different areas abide by different laws/codes etc. and SS operates differently per location as well.

It's a shame for all parties involved.

AngelEyes82;682637 wrote: I did need say it because to me it's the truth.. I like you but I disagree with what you're saying and doing. I do daycare and the minute i suspect one of the parents abusing their child I am calling the police. I would never hesitate or have anything to think about. I am not trying to be a bitch but a child is involved and I can't just shut up when I know a child is being abused- beaten. IT'S WRONG.


NOBODY said her being abused was right, did they? Personally I would think an adult would use a little more common sense and find out a little more about the situation before they went flying to CPS or whoever and possibly made something worse. Maybe you SHOULD have something to think about before doing that. Like the kid involved. This is what I'm trying to do and I don't appreciate the attitude. You're trying to fight the wrong person here. You and some others. Now that we both think the other is wrong, Can we go back to the issue without making it even more personal?! I've no interest in arguing with you or anyone else or making enemies over this issue. I came here for a fkng idea, not to be trashed.

You have a big heart Red a strong head on your shoulder's and You will make the best decision and one that will be right by the girl M.

What doe's she the girl talk about when you see her. Doe's she look frighten and afraid.

You say she has been causing trouble at school, is this bullying because those who are bullied them selves will also be bully and find people more vunerable to take there hurt out on.

This sound's to me like it is bullying and the M and Friend do not really get on.

Is Friend married to the farther and sort of like a step mom or is she a family friend that lives with them?

M needs female guidence and Friend doe's not provide this to her. She will be looking for love and affection but not getting it from her supposed mum or her dad.

Is there anyway you can talk to her and give her those things that she needs.

Maybe have a girlie day were you do her hair and talk and laugh.

see what she is like in other older female company.

RED

I think a girls day out is a excellent idea. Let the girl know she can have someone to talk to & open up to, maybe a regular outing - make her welcome to call & stop by anytime.

Patsy

Red, I have taken my time and mulled this one over, here is my take on it, you must have concerns to have mentioned it here and from what I have read, I too would be very concerned for M. Emotional scars are quite often worse than physical ones, when children reach a certain age the beatings tend to stop, the emotional ones will stay with M FOREVER.

It is obvious that if your friend talks about M in the manner which she does, she should not be raising M, as a parent/guardian we try to guide our children with love care and compassion, it seems clear that your friend has none of these qualities to offer M.

Our social services is crap, but believe me if I thought a child was being damaged physically or mentally, I'd be making that call.

I am seeing first hand with my own eyes what emotional damage can be done by a child's care giver, the person I know is unable to work and has severe anxiety and confidence problems, she feels that she has no worth, all because adults have made her feel that way, I feel heartbroken with some things that she tells me.

A good friendship is about being able to talk, you don't necessarily have to agree with a friends views, but you should be able to communicate. Red you are good at explaining your views and causes, if I was you I would get M alone and chat with her, try and get her to open up and tell her that you are going to talk to your friend about the way M is treated, I would get M to do a list of positives and negatives in her life, I am thinking that the negs will be lot longer than the pos!. I would then get M her Dad and your friend together and tell them straight, that her parenting skills is seriously lacking, get the list and point out what and how the changes can be made. If she is having none of it then M needs to get out of there.

Sometimes a child will stay in an abusive situation if given a choice because their self esteem and confidence tells them they deserve no better, everyone deserves to be loved, nurtured and to be held, why should M have less than what she is entitled to?

littlemissgiggle;682643 wrote: You have a big heart Red a strong head on your shoulder's and You will make the best decision and one that will be right by the girl M.

What doe's she the girl talk about when you see her. Doe's she look frighten and afraid.

You say she has been causing trouble at school, is this bullying because those who are bullied them selves will also be bully and find people more vunerable to take there hurt out on.

This sound's to me like it is bullying and the M and Friend do not really get on.

Is Friend married to the farther and sort of like a step mom or is she a family friend that lives with them?

M needs female guidence and Friend doe's not provide this to her. She will be looking for love and affection but not getting it from her supposed mum or her dad.

Is there anyway you can talk to her and give her those things that she needs.

Maybe have a girlie day were you do her hair and talk and laugh.

see what she is like in other older female company.


Thank you MissGiggle.

Well I've only seen her twice and both times when I said "hello M," she ignored me. She ignores everyone unless pressed to speak. I don't think it's shyness, I think she's just afraid to say anything stupid or else maybe doesn't like people. Her dad is the same way. Very quiet unless spoken to.

They aren't married, they're just friends. M and her dad live with my friend. It's a house mate situation. Has gone on for years.

I only know what Friend tells me and nothing from the girl's point of view.

From what I gather, it's Friend who does most of the raising. She doesnot lack for proper food and clothes or anything like that, she just doesn't seem to get along with Friend. Friend is a b*tchy sort of woman. That's sad,but it's true and every one knows it.

I don't know the reason for the fights, if she really is starting them or is just trying to finish them.

Yes, I could have a day out with her doing something fun (or trying to) and maybe sniff out some info from her. A friend here just suggested the same thing about befriending her and being the safe adult in her life. It's certainly worth a try. Maybe coming from a bad situation myself might could have an advantage here.

Thank you.

Thanks Suzy, I know firsthand you're right. You made good points.

I will see what I can do with M. She may be over Saturday.

I just wanted to point out the fact that CPS doesn't always work. And has anyone actually reported anything to CPS? I have once, and even though more than one person on my block also reported these folks to CPS, we all got letters saying no abuse.

Ok Susie whatever. If you're done here there's no point in talking with you then.

Edit: actually I'm not done.

I never said this woman's hip replacement or her age made it okay to hit M.

I've lived in Arizona for 32 years and their system is nothing to write home about.

For hell's sake! I am NOT sitting here doing "nothing" am I? If I was we wouldn't be having this discussion!

I don't care who disagrees with what I'm doing, that's fine, disagree all you want. Nobody said we had to agree in order to get along. I am reading every reply and considering everyone's comments. But I am not willing to be slagged on and won't put up with it.

Okay,now I'm done with this part. I hope we can cool off and resume later because there was no need for this to get poorly between us.

terri is the only person that knows the people involved .. so i feel i cant really comment





all i will say is that i wish someone had reported my father for the beatings and cruelty i had to endure





if my uncle ans aunt plus my grandparents had not got involved my torture would of gone on for years longer



plus i think if my father knew people were watching that stopped him from being much worse

Sheryl;682669 wrote: I just wanted to point out the fact that CPS doesn't always work. And has anyone actually reported anything to CPS? I have once, and even though more than one person on my block also reported these folks to CPS, we all got letters saying no abuse.


Some years ago, we reported a woman to CPS who was pimping out her little girls (something like 9 and 11 I think) to her boyfriends. NOTHING was done. This was common knowledge that she did this and NOTHING was done.

I see now we're getting snide and making bs assumptions and remarks? You are pathetic!

Worry about your own damn kids. God forfkngbid anyone ask for help around here or possibly a second opinion without you minions jumping in.

I'm done, I'll do as I see fit, and I will never mention this again.

RED - just to make it clear nothing of what I say will be a personal attack on you.



First of all, here in the UK we have an organisation called the NSPCC which is the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. They are a charity that do exactly what their title say they do, they have a helpline that you can phone to voice your concerns over a child's welfare and you can remain anonymous if you chose. On one occasion I did phone them, I didn't stay anonymous but I could have, the behaviour that was affecting the child I was worried about stopped. Is there anything similar in the US that you could go to just for advice if you don't want to report this situation.



Secondly, I agree that this child is in danger - not in danger of being beaten to death but in danger of having this ruin her life. Who says she won't carry on this cycle of 'I am worthless, I deserve to be beaten' with every aspect of her life, future relationships with abusive men, poorly paid jobs because she doesn't deserve better.



Thirdly - how do you look someone in the face when they confront you years later and say 'you knew, why didn't you help me'



Fourthly, I know you are anti CPS but surely on some occasions they actually do what they are supposed to do and if they don't then they must be accountable to some other authority.



And finally - she's only 12, she needs an adult to stand up for her, she comes first not the woman who is hurting her.



Just as a point of interest - some European countries have made it illegal for parents to smack their child. Using a belt would pretty much have you hung, drawn and quartered!

i actually reported my own father when i was about 15 and ran away from home ,for beating my younger sister and treating us terribly



you know what happened ? the people came out my sister was too afriad to say anything thing and when they were gone he beat her again and when he got his hands on me i was beaten untill i was unconcouse but it was the beginning of the end of his tryanny ,they kept an eye on her at school and made home visits more



evil people wont stop abusing children on their own they have to be stopped





there is still hope for this child if it is stopped now





to turn a blind eye is as good as saying its ok





i know terri will do the right thing :-6:-6