~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
the eyes and memories of the world are focused on Poland today, where the 60th anniversary of the liberation of auschwitz is being commemorated. the survivors who remain will soon be gone from this earth, but thanks to the Shoah project and others, what they endured will never be forgotten. or repeated. the camps are evil and yet hallowed ground. the gate at auschwitz must forever stand as a reminder of man's inhumanity to man. never again.
~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
Lady Cop, though the names of Oszweciem (sic) Birkenau, bergen, belsen, Maidanek, ravensbruck treblinka have gone down in infamy and as you rightly wish, NO MORE along comes the Balkans, Rwanda etc, I fear that the capacity for man's inhumanity to man is boundless, but there is always hope, sometimes that is all there is but at least it's there.
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
Good point. The forces of good in mankind must be ever vigilant. Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.
Speaking of nazis and evil... My father was a P-47 ace in WWII. I used to ask him to tell me war stories, but like many vets, he usuallly replied, "You wouldn't understand." and refused to discuss it. I guess the memories were too painful.
One day however, towards the end of his life, he began to feel his mortality and worry about the things he had done in the war.
Let me say this right off: He was the best of fathers, a renown phyicist, and a college professor who helped many kids get their degrees in Engineering. He was a devout Christian and lived an exemplary life.
One day, out of the blue, he told me a story that chilled my spine. He said, "After Italy and the Battle of Brenner Pass (I looked it up later, it was an aerial version of "The Charge of the Light Brigade" a real massacre for our side) I was assigned to fly interdiction and support for the D-day forces. My squadon was in charge of strafing and bombing Nazi trains, mostly.
One day, my wingman and I spotted a troop and ammunition train moving through France. We dove down on it, guns ready. As we got closer, I saw that the Germans had put civilian cars in between each troop or tank car.
Worse yet, they had placed hospital cars in between also, with red crosses on the roofs. On the tops of the troop cars, they had made all the women and children from a nearby citty ride on the roofs and had instructed the women to hold up their babies if fighter planes came by.
We had no choice. The train could not be allowed to reach it's destination. At the time, it's arrival could have changed the momentum of the invasion. We dove on the train guns blazing, I could see the .50 caliber bullets shredding the women and children before the train blew up in a blaze of high explosives."
As you can see, this really bothered him. I really can't judge, because although I have served my country, I was never in combat. (Unless you can say that being a jet instructor for young students is combat!)
There is no doubt. War is all Hell.
:-1
Speaking of nazis and evil... My father was a P-47 ace in WWII. I used to ask him to tell me war stories, but like many vets, he usuallly replied, "You wouldn't understand." and refused to discuss it. I guess the memories were too painful.
One day however, towards the end of his life, he began to feel his mortality and worry about the things he had done in the war.
Let me say this right off: He was the best of fathers, a renown phyicist, and a college professor who helped many kids get their degrees in Engineering. He was a devout Christian and lived an exemplary life.
One day, out of the blue, he told me a story that chilled my spine. He said, "After Italy and the Battle of Brenner Pass (I looked it up later, it was an aerial version of "The Charge of the Light Brigade" a real massacre for our side) I was assigned to fly interdiction and support for the D-day forces. My squadon was in charge of strafing and bombing Nazi trains, mostly.
One day, my wingman and I spotted a troop and ammunition train moving through France. We dove down on it, guns ready. As we got closer, I saw that the Germans had put civilian cars in between each troop or tank car.
Worse yet, they had placed hospital cars in between also, with red crosses on the roofs. On the tops of the troop cars, they had made all the women and children from a nearby citty ride on the roofs and had instructed the women to hold up their babies if fighter planes came by.
We had no choice. The train could not be allowed to reach it's destination. At the time, it's arrival could have changed the momentum of the invasion. We dove on the train guns blazing, I could see the .50 caliber bullets shredding the women and children before the train blew up in a blaze of high explosives."
As you can see, this really bothered him. I really can't judge, because although I have served my country, I was never in combat. (Unless you can say that being a jet instructor for young students is combat!)
There is no doubt. War is all Hell.
:-1
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
Jives, a great a thoughtful post, anyone who has been in combat has these things that haunt them, I have one in particular that I feel I could never share on a board, in fact only one other person in the whole world knows but I think about it every day and that was 24 years ago.
Your Dad did his duty. He no doubt saved many further lives by his action, although that would have been of no succour to him by the sound of it. I often wonder at some of the "Gung Ho" lets invade wherever armchair warriors we get on these boards from time to time actually realise what combat is actually like ?
ps I think teaching kids to fly jets could easily be classed as dangerous as combat, I hate bloody planes and I used to jump out of them for a living !!
Your Dad did his duty. He no doubt saved many further lives by his action, although that would have been of no succour to him by the sound of it. I often wonder at some of the "Gung Ho" lets invade wherever armchair warriors we get on these boards from time to time actually realise what combat is actually like ?
ps I think teaching kids to fly jets could easily be classed as dangerous as combat, I hate bloody planes and I used to jump out of them for a living !!
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
my father was on oppenheimer's team in the development of THE BOMB. he did not tell anyone in the family until many years after the war. to me many lives were taken to save many lives. the onus for the deaths of innocents on those train cars lies with the nazis who placed them in harm's way. in war, innocents die. but today's anniversary is about the systematic MURDER of human beings. assembly-line murder of innocents. i was watching a program last night and thinking i hope there IS a hell and mengele and himmler and hoess and eichmann et al are enduring the tortures of the damned.
-
capt_buzzard
- Posts: 5557
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm
~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
lady cop wrote: my father was on oppenheimer's team in the development of THE BOMB. he did not tell anyone in the family until many years after the war. to me many lives were taken to save many lives. the onus for the deaths of innocents on those train cars lies with the nazis who placed them in harm's way. in war, innocents die. but today's anniversary is about the systematic MURDER of human beings. assembly-line murder of innocents. i was watching a program last night and thinking i hope there IS a hell and mengele and himmler and hoess and eichmann et al are enduring the tortures of the damned. Of the damned?
How does one know there is such a place?
How does one know there is such a place?
~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
i don't know...i said i HOPE there is.
-
capt_buzzard
- Posts: 5557
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm
~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
That's another debate :-5
~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
Posted by jives
Speaking of nazis and evil... My father was a P-47 ace in WWII. I used to ask him to tell me war stories, but like many vets, he usuallly replied, "You wouldn't understand." and refused to discuss it. I guess the memories were too painful.
but like many vets, he usuallly replied, "You wouldn't understand." and refused to discuss it.
I always found that as well only occasionally would those who had actually seen combat talk about it. I knew one who had been in the British tank regiment that was part of the relief force at Belsen. Told of how when they were filling the mass grave he saw some of the german guards got caught up in the pile of earth in front of the bulldozer and were buried along with the bodies. He said was all the british troops who saw it happen said nothing. He did say he never thought he would see british troops do something like that, he also said after what he had seen he would have shot the lot of them, bear in mind he must have been a witness as well. Startling story as a more gentle bloke you would rarely meet. Most of my older male relatives fought but you never found out from them as they never talked about it.
http://www.potomacbooksinc.com/Books/Bo ... ctID=89762
Spitfires, Thunderbolts, and Warm Beer
An American Fighter Pilot Over Europe
Philip D. Caine
Might find it an interesting read if you can get a copy, biography of an american fought with the RAF and ended up in thunderbolts. The cultural difference between UK and US are fascinating.
Speaking of nazis and evil... My father was a P-47 ace in WWII. I used to ask him to tell me war stories, but like many vets, he usuallly replied, "You wouldn't understand." and refused to discuss it. I guess the memories were too painful.
but like many vets, he usuallly replied, "You wouldn't understand." and refused to discuss it.
I always found that as well only occasionally would those who had actually seen combat talk about it. I knew one who had been in the British tank regiment that was part of the relief force at Belsen. Told of how when they were filling the mass grave he saw some of the german guards got caught up in the pile of earth in front of the bulldozer and were buried along with the bodies. He said was all the british troops who saw it happen said nothing. He did say he never thought he would see british troops do something like that, he also said after what he had seen he would have shot the lot of them, bear in mind he must have been a witness as well. Startling story as a more gentle bloke you would rarely meet. Most of my older male relatives fought but you never found out from them as they never talked about it.
http://www.potomacbooksinc.com/Books/Bo ... ctID=89762
Spitfires, Thunderbolts, and Warm Beer
An American Fighter Pilot Over Europe
Philip D. Caine
Might find it an interesting read if you can get a copy, biography of an american fought with the RAF and ended up in thunderbolts. The cultural difference between UK and US are fascinating.
~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
Thanks, Bothwell! :wah: It's certainly true that life is far stranger than fiction. I've been alive for almost a half-century now and the things I've seen boggle even my imagination. 
It's interesting that this thread just came up, one of my students recently developed a fascination for Hitler. (Sheesh! That guy is still persuading the youth after all these years.)
Of course I've sat him down and gave him a bigger picture. But I'm not sure I got through to him. His parting shot was, "But I'm German!"
What would you have told him? :-2
It's interesting that this thread just came up, one of my students recently developed a fascination for Hitler. (Sheesh! That guy is still persuading the youth after all these years.)
Of course I've sat him down and gave him a bigger picture. But I'm not sure I got through to him. His parting shot was, "But I'm German!"
What would you have told him? :-2
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
lady cop wrote: today's anniversary is about the systematic MURDER of human beings. assembly-line murder of innocents.
Whoops! You're right LC, sorry to skew the thread.
i was watching a program last night and thinking i hope there IS a hell and mengele and himmler and hoess and eichmann et al are enduring the tortures of the damned.
Since it's obvious that there is a creator, (just look up at the night sky!) I have faith that those animals are in suitable cages.
If Dante was right, (Dante's Inferno - The vision of Hell as given to Dante by the Angel Virgil in the 13th Century) those violent sociopaths are in a lake of boiling blood at a depth appropriate to the violence they committed on Earth. (which probably means they are in over their heads!)
Whoops! You're right LC, sorry to skew the thread.
i was watching a program last night and thinking i hope there IS a hell and mengele and himmler and hoess and eichmann et al are enduring the tortures of the damned.
Since it's obvious that there is a creator, (just look up at the night sky!) I have faith that those animals are in suitable cages.
If Dante was right, (Dante's Inferno - The vision of Hell as given to Dante by the Angel Virgil in the 13th Century) those violent sociopaths are in a lake of boiling blood at a depth appropriate to the violence they committed on Earth. (which probably means they are in over their heads!)
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
Jives wrote: Whoops! You're right LC, sorry to skew the thread.
Since it's obvious that there is a creator, (just look up at the night sky!) I have faith that those animals are in suitable cages.
If Dante was right, (Dante's Inferno - The vision of Hell as given to Dante by the Angel Virgil in the 13th Century) those violent sociopaths are in a lake of boiling blood at a depth appropriate to the violence they committed on Earth. (which probably means they are in over their heads!)
My father was in the infamous van doos. Canadian Commandos who fought in the Sicilian Campaign. Like all fathers, he didn't want to talk about it.
It was my mother that told me of one of his encounters with the enemy. He was on guard duty, in Sicily, protecting trucks and three men approached. He gave them a warning. They were in civilian clothing, so, he gave them another warning. As they got closer he gave them another warning and when they didn't listen, he opened up and killed them.
My father nodded as the story was told. I didn't know how he felt but my mother continued to tell me that when they searched the bodies they found that they each had, in their back pockets, knives. It wasn't until years later that I found out that knives in the back pocket were signs that they were a part of the organized Sicilian Mafia.
Another of the reasons that my father never talked about the war and his friends was because in a long fight for a position that they had been ordered by the command to take, was taken, but as a cost. Out of his company 17 men were left. The men/boys he had grown up with in the military were wiped out while taking the position. I could see the pain in his eyes.
Virtually everyday, in my community, I see people with numbers tatooed on their wrists or arms and think to myself that, yes, war is hell and they only know half of it. Never again should apply to anywhere on the face of the earth.
Since it's obvious that there is a creator, (just look up at the night sky!) I have faith that those animals are in suitable cages.
If Dante was right, (Dante's Inferno - The vision of Hell as given to Dante by the Angel Virgil in the 13th Century) those violent sociopaths are in a lake of boiling blood at a depth appropriate to the violence they committed on Earth. (which probably means they are in over their heads!)
My father was in the infamous van doos. Canadian Commandos who fought in the Sicilian Campaign. Like all fathers, he didn't want to talk about it.
It was my mother that told me of one of his encounters with the enemy. He was on guard duty, in Sicily, protecting trucks and three men approached. He gave them a warning. They were in civilian clothing, so, he gave them another warning. As they got closer he gave them another warning and when they didn't listen, he opened up and killed them.
My father nodded as the story was told. I didn't know how he felt but my mother continued to tell me that when they searched the bodies they found that they each had, in their back pockets, knives. It wasn't until years later that I found out that knives in the back pocket were signs that they were a part of the organized Sicilian Mafia.
Another of the reasons that my father never talked about the war and his friends was because in a long fight for a position that they had been ordered by the command to take, was taken, but as a cost. Out of his company 17 men were left. The men/boys he had grown up with in the military were wiped out while taking the position. I could see the pain in his eyes.
Virtually everyday, in my community, I see people with numbers tatooed on their wrists or arms and think to myself that, yes, war is hell and they only know half of it. Never again should apply to anywhere on the face of the earth.
~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
posted by jives
It's interesting that this thread just came up, one of my students recently developed a fascination for Hitler. (Sheesh! That guy is still persuading the youth after all these years.)
Of course I've sat him down and gave him a bigger picture. But I'm not sure I got through to him. His parting shot was, "But I'm German!"
What would you have told him?
"Hitler was a great man who did good things for germany" Quote from my teenage Austrian nephew. All you can do is make sure they know the full story. Next time I go to austria I will take them to auschwitz or Belsen. There is not a nation on the planet that does not have a dark history somewhere that they would like to pretend wasn't really them. Are the KKK representative of all americans?
The whole point about keeping the memory alive is that it is the kind of thing that could happen again in any country. Hitler was not an overnight phenomenon it was little by little it became acceptable to dehumanize people and fewer and fewer objected because it was unpatriotic then it was downright dangerous to speak out.
It's interesting that this thread just came up, one of my students recently developed a fascination for Hitler. (Sheesh! That guy is still persuading the youth after all these years.)
Of course I've sat him down and gave him a bigger picture. But I'm not sure I got through to him. His parting shot was, "But I'm German!"
What would you have told him?
"Hitler was a great man who did good things for germany" Quote from my teenage Austrian nephew. All you can do is make sure they know the full story. Next time I go to austria I will take them to auschwitz or Belsen. There is not a nation on the planet that does not have a dark history somewhere that they would like to pretend wasn't really them. Are the KKK representative of all americans?
The whole point about keeping the memory alive is that it is the kind of thing that could happen again in any country. Hitler was not an overnight phenomenon it was little by little it became acceptable to dehumanize people and fewer and fewer objected because it was unpatriotic then it was downright dangerous to speak out.
-
along-for-the-ride
- Posts: 11732
- Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:28 pm
~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
My ex-husband was in the military and for three periods of time, we lived in Germany. We had a chance to visit Dachau, which is a museum and memorial now.
What still remains with me are the feelings of how beautiful the countryside was, and how horrific the lives were inside those walls.
I am still ashamed to know that this abomination continues throughout the world.
To a " lesser" degree? Man's inhumanity to man can never be to a lesser degree.
IMO
What still remains with me are the feelings of how beautiful the countryside was, and how horrific the lives were inside those walls.
I am still ashamed to know that this abomination continues throughout the world.
To a " lesser" degree? Man's inhumanity to man can never be to a lesser degree.
IMO
Life is a Highway. Let's share the Commute.
-
capt_buzzard
- Posts: 5557
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm
~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
Lady Cop, that bomb was used on Japan. The bombs today are far greater than the first, and many nations now process it. Mankind will someday destroy itself. The dooms-day clock now stands at 5 minutes to midnight.
-
capt_buzzard
- Posts: 5557
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm
~60th anniversary~liberation of auschwitz~
Bothwell wrote: Jives, a great a thoughtful post, anyone who has been in combat has these things that haunt them, I have one in particular that I feel I could never share on a board, in fact only one other person in the whole world knows but I think about it every day and that was 24 years ago.
Your Dad did his duty. He no doubt saved many further lives by his action, although that would have been of no succour to him by the sound of it. I often wonder at some of the "Gung Ho" lets invade wherever armchair warriors we get on these boards from time to time actually realise what combat is actually like ?
ps I think teaching kids to fly jets could easily be classed as dangerous as combat, I hate bloody planes and I used to jump out of them for a living !! Even for those on the other side
Your Dad did his duty. He no doubt saved many further lives by his action, although that would have been of no succour to him by the sound of it. I often wonder at some of the "Gung Ho" lets invade wherever armchair warriors we get on these boards from time to time actually realise what combat is actually like ?
ps I think teaching kids to fly jets could easily be classed as dangerous as combat, I hate bloody planes and I used to jump out of them for a living !! Even for those on the other side