The Bible is more truth than lies.

[kensloft]

sagan wrote: Post the animation Ken and I'll give you my unbiased, objective, atheist opinion.


Everybody wants something for nothing. Even the guys in the athiest structure want to use the artist without paying them. At least the churches starved them into submission by at least feeding them a tad! Sheesh! Work, work, work. Guess when I go back to the shop on Monday I'll see if I c'n work it into the schedule. Actually I just realized that I could build it without the program. But, alas, even simplicity takes time. Drat it all!

[Ted]

sagan :-6

As I said before it is amazing how many millions of folks around the world past present and future have experienced enough evidence to convince them of the Divine. Of course we are talking about the spiritual aspects of life and that is an area that science is not adapted to deal with. In fact it is incapable of dealing with.

As far as my stand on objectivity goes, regardless of peer review etc. there is no such thing a objectivity. All observations, all thoughts all experiements must be filtered through the human mind and the results can and often are biased. Man even creates the machinerey that is supposed to measure the measureable. Scientists can observe the same "data" or "phenomena" an interestingly enough come up with entirely different answer and then as time goes on find it was something entirely dfferent and then later on after more evidence it changes again.

Unfortunately science is not perfect it can and does make errors. Now I really know little of quantum theory but this I know, it is calling into question a lot of the science previously considered errefuable. It is calling into question the real nature of reality. The Big Bang Theory, which by the way I accept led to the idea of an immenent collapse untill recent discoveries have shown that the universe is expanding at an ever increasing speed.

Scientific theories are tentative and many do worship at the altar of science.

That being said there is much personal evidence around the world and throughout history for some form of Divinity. Of course the evidence doesn't fit with science because it wants measurable results and unfortunately not all truths can be measured: justice, compassion, empathy, love, trust, freedom, altruism etc.

Now we each choose our beliefs based on the evidence that we consider important and reliable. Modern science is coming to realize that reductionism does not answer to all the problems and questions; that the "whole is greater then the sum of its parts.

My world incompasses the physical and well as the spiritual. If you choose to keep your world on a more narrow footing then good for you

Shalom

Ted

:-6

[Ted]

And the circle goes round and round and round and in the end we end up in the same place.

There is a need in this world to respect folks of all faiths or none as the case may be.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[koan]

Ted wrote: And the circle goes round and round and round and in the end we end up in the same place.




Something like this, Ted?

Attached files

[kensloft]

Ted wrote: sagan :-6 Unfortunately science is not perfect it can and does make errors. Now I really know little of quantum theory but this I know, it is calling into question a lot of the science previously considered errefuable. It is calling into question the real nature of reality. The Big Bang Theory, which by the way I accept led to the idea of an immenent collapse untill recent discoveries have shown that the universe is expanding at an ever increasing speed.

Scientific theories are tentative and many do worship at the altar of science.




Relativity was not the be all and end all of Science. Even Einstein knew this. He was a lifelong friend of Max Planck, the father of Quantum Physics. The string theory is now being bandied about as the possible heir to the throne of science. There is more to the atom that meets the eye. The "Unified theory" is trying to tie in what we know of old and what we know today into one theory, which is as it should be.

Where there once were the nucleus, proton and electron there is, science has found, many other particles that their theories and works give them no understanding about what these things were? Muons, quarks, up, down. There's a long line of information being studied. However it does not detract nor distract from the fact that that is the way things are. This is God's work. (however the phraseology goes) and all we are doing is thanking Him for and pursuing His purpose.

There are many that do not worship at the altar of science. I am sure that the worshippers are sitting back on their chair going, "Faster? It doesn't make sense?"

We'll get to it. We got Big Guy on our side.

Ted. When do you think the vacuum of space will begin to slow the process down?

Will the Big Crunch come to pass or will we have another Mind-boggling God experience reminding us of how little we know?

[capt_buzzard]

koan wrote: Exactly. If there's a scrap I'll back you up.You love a scrap lov

[capt_buzzard]

Come on Ken, let us hear the rest of it:-2

[koan]

capt_buzzard wrote: You love a scrap lov


It looks like sagan doesn't need any back up and they have risen to a much loftier arena than scrapping.

Nobody mentioned my little guy running around and around the box. :-1

Come on...it's FUNNY! I KNOW it is. So there. :yh_tong2

[koan]

sagan wrote: I never say no to support Koan.

Funny? It was giving me vertigo! Seriously, I think it was the medication. My eyes were spinning!


I'm watching your back in another thread...don't think I'm not working!

Attached files

[jahamaa]

I Can always count of my friends in the forum to give me my laugh of the day.

They mount up,gird their loins, strap on their armour and ride to battle that which they say doesn't exist.

If God doesn't exist as you all seem to beleive what is it you are trying to humiliate? Is it somes beleive in God that fires you up so. If it doesn't cost you anything why do you care?

Or are you just the kind that likes to make fun of people to make yourselfs seem larger and more intelligent. If so I can think of more productive uses of your wit and wisdom.

Consider this, maybe God has muddled the proof of his existence so that folks like yourselves could not let go of your arrogant attacks on the belief in him until he lets you know that he is really here.

I mean if you weren't obssessed with your self-enamored rhetorice you'd probably not be thinking of Him at all.

Could it be that your belief in a lack of proof is what God is using to keep you playing in his yard.

Nahhh, you folks are way to smart to ever be played by anyone much less a God that can't even prove his own existence ain't ya.

And what is all this watching your back nonsence? When does open discussion need that stuff? Respectfully, if that is what you want to play rent a paintball court.

Love ya!!

[koan]

Jahamaa

Consider this: I do believe in God. Very much so.

I also believe that people have a right not to believe and that they shouldn't be harassed or insulted for it. I also believe that a little humour, even though not understood by all, helps us to get through this thing called life. Even though I believe in something doesn't mean that my belief proves anything to anyone except myself.

Consider that maybe you have jumped to some hasty judgements.

[Jives]

Why does the Bible have to be truth or lies? I just go along with the idea that it's a good book to live by. Wasn't that it's intent?

Long ago, I resolve my science vs. religion debate. Religion explains why we are here, Science explains how we got here, what's the problem?

[jahamaa]

koan wrote: Jahamaa

Consider this: I do believe in God. Very much so.

I also believe that people have a right not to believe and that they shouldn't be harassed or insulted for it. I also believe that a little humour, even though not understood by all, helps us to get through this thing called life. Even though I believe in something doesn't mean that my belief proves anything to anyone except myself.

Consider that maybe you have jumped to some hasty judgements.


Isn't it funny how people can get so different an impression from the same written word. My apparently poorly written comment was directed at people I thought were poking fun and insulting others. Guess I was wrong. Not the first time, sorry if I offended wrongly.

[jahamaa]

sagan wrote: Because some are capable and willing to debate their beliefs without jumping to the conclusion that they and their beliefs are in some way being 'humilitated' or 'attacked'. To direct your question back to you, if Ted, Ken and Koan and others can address this subject without their bottom lips quivering - and it costs you nothing, then why do you care?



Not at all, I found it refreshing to discuss such issues with the likes of Ted, Ken and Koan without the usual hysterical responses from 'true believers' when their beliefs is debated. If your faith cannot stand a little investigation, is it worth having?

A total and utter sense of humour failure.

Ditto.


we are into a circular argument because I can again turn it back to you and ask why do you care.

I guess one persons humor is anothers insult always been that way always will be I guess.

[kensloft]

jahamaa wrote: I Can always count of my friends in the forum to give me my laugh of the day.

They mount up,gird their loins, strap on their armour and ride to battle that which they say doesn't exist.

If God doesn't exist as you all seem to beleive what is it you are trying to humiliate? Is it somes beleive in God that fires you up so. If it doesn't cost you anything why do you care?

Or are you just the kind that likes to make fun of people to make yourselfs seem larger and more intelligent. If so I can think of more productive uses of your wit and wisdom.

Consider this, maybe God has muddled the proof of his existence so that folks like yourselves could not let go of your arrogant attacks on the belief in him until he lets you know that he is really here.

I mean if you weren't obssessed with your self-enamored rhetorice you'd probably not be thinking of Him at all.

Could it be that your belief in a lack of proof is what God is using to keep you playing in his yard.

Nahhh, you folks are way to smart to ever be played by anyone much less a God that can't even prove his own existence ain't ya.

And what is all this watching your back nonsence? When does open discussion need that stuff? Respectfully, if that is what you want to play rent a paintball court.

Love ya!!


Just who is it that you are addressing this missive to? If I didn't know better I would think that you are painting everybody with the same brush in order to accomplish the aggrandizement of one's self in one's own eyes just as you have accused many of doing in this thread.

If you think that someone that doesn't share the popular beliefs of others isn't going to get dumped on then you had better guess again because, apparently, you and I do not live on the same planet or in the same realm known as earth.

I, for one, appreciate the intercession of Koan reminding people that they are being watched, taken into consideration and will not be abused on her watch. She does so for everyone.

I, like you, look forward to being regaled by the humour that is pervasive here. Laughter is good for the soul and this garden is filled with good souls that enjoy its bounties. of being able to speak their piece and learn from their words and those of others.

Love Ya too.

[Ted]

Sagan

As far as objectivity goes. I still do not believe that pure objectivity exists. All observations whether direct or indirect are subject to interpretation by the human brain. Which is subject to its own biases.

"I will return to this issue in Chapter 6 when I discuss Einstein's insistence on what is call an "objective reality",means PG 29 "God and the New Biology" by Arthurtht we shouldn't have to wait to measure a particular property of a quantum system for that property to be real. It is now known that he was wrong on thispoint. Most pyhsicists would say that neither particle even has a definite position or momentum until it is measured.. Pg 97 "Quantum" Jim Al-Khalili.

Pg 29 "God and the New Biology" by Aruthur Peacock. "Thus terms such as 'consciouness, 'person, 'social facts' are not prematurely to be dismissed from the vocabulary used to describe the human condition since in all three of these instances a strong case can be made for the distinctiveness and non-reducibility of the concepts they denote. For example, as we shall aregue later, consciousness is not be bne dismissed as 'nothing but physicial-and -chemistry, or neurophysicaological interconnectsions', but may properly be regarded as a genuine emergent, real feature at the level of the hierarchy of the complexity which is the human brain in the human body(and perhaps lower down and earlier on in evolution). So the biologist who adops, entirely consistently with his science, a theory-autonomous antireductionism concerning biological concepts should also be open to viewing consciousness as an emergent, in the way already defined."

I am aware of the research on the localization in the brain of the "spiritual area" if I can call it that. I have discussed this a lenght with Psychologist B. Jessup and he is in agreement with me that we can never be sure whether the thought caused the neuronal activity or the neuronal activity caused the thought. I personally cannot believe that consciousness etc. is totally physical and chemistry. Logicall it makes no sense to me.

Here I will refer to jives comment that science answers as to how we are here and a spiritual faith answers to why we are here. Science does not answer such questions as purpose, hate, love, compassion, altruism, mercy, why anything why not nothing etc..

Psychologist D. Morgenson also commented to me that there is far more occurring in this world then will ever be explained by science.

Science does deal with the physical world and its very findings are now being called into question. The end was supposed to be the Big Crunch and now apparently I read in a "Scientic American" the universe is expanding at and ever increasing rate rather then collapsing or even slowing down.

I've yet to understand why an animal is afraid of death. Death is not the final end. The various molecus and atoms etc that make a person up will continue to exist. If our brain is simply a mechanism why does any atom give a damn whether the body continues or not. Why does it care?

In this complex world we can look at anything with one of two visions, the positive or the negative. That is a personal choice. My personal choice is to accept the spiritual realm because of my past experiences.

Anyway what you are asking for I cannot give. It is not mine to give or withold but it is the individuals choice whether or not to take it.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[capt_buzzard]

What is Truth? There are those too, who have invented lies about the bible. I believe I know my God, and my God knows me. I don't need any church men or women to tell me any different.

[kensloft]

capt_buzzard wrote: What is Truth? There are those too, who have invented lies about the bible. I believe I know my God, and my God knows me. I don't need any church men or women to tell me any different.
Yah, but where are you going to put your money to support their apparent superiority of being in line for the right to be the closest to God?

Until you figure it out the give it to the sagan research of the paranormal. Checks and money orders are accepted too.

[capt_buzzard]

kensloft wrote: Yah, but where are you going to put your money to support their apparent superiority of being in line for the right to be the closest to God?



Until you figure it out the give it to the sagan research of the paranormal. Checks and money orders are accepted too.I never give money to religious institutions sects or charities.

[kensloft]

capt_buzzard wrote: I never give money to religious institutions sects or charities.


Don't look at us as being a religious institution, sect or charity. Look upon us as being the place where you want to put your money because you don't believe in giving it to religious institutions, sects or charities. (cheques and moneyorders accepted)

[capt_buzzard]

kensloft wrote: Don't look at us as being a religious institution, sect or charity. Look upon us as being the place where you want to put your money because you don't believe in giving it to religious institutions, sects or charities. (cheques and moneyorders accepted)Yes Father.

[Jives]

Ted wrote: Most pyhsicists would say that neither particle even has a definite position or momentum until it is measured..


The Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle?

I personally cannot believe that consciousness etc. is totally physical and chemistry. Logicall it makes no sense to me.


I had faith that there was a "super-dimensional soul" before I saw my own body from outside myself. Now I'm sure of it. It's infinitely comforting.

Here I will refer to jives comment that science answers as to how we are here and a spiritual faith answers to why we are here. Science does not answer such questions as purpose, hate, love, compassion, altruism, mercy, why anything why not nothing etc..


Hey! Ted quoted me! Go me! Go me!

But seriously, Why is it assumed that Science and Religion cannot coexist or that Science is bent on undermining the pinnings of Religion?

Psychologist D. Morgenson also commented to me that there is far more occurring in this world then will ever be explained by science.

[QUOTE]Science does deal with the physical world and its very findings are now being called into question. The end was supposed to be the Big Crunch and now apparently I read in a "Scientic American" the universe is expanding at and ever increasing rate rather then collapsing or even slowing down.


It's true, although new research seems to point to the fact that there is enough "dark matter" to slow it down eventually. Personally, I'm glad. The idea of a Universe that ends in total entropy is disconcerting to me.

It would be more logical and beautiful to have a Universe that eternally expanded and collapsed. Could we be on the first cycle? Or the seventh?

Death is not the final end. The various molecus and atoms etc that make a person up will continue to exist.


Hurray! Someone who actually knows and isn't afraid to say that atoms are immortal! Most students look at me strangely when I try to tell them that their atoms were originally formed inside a star. To me, thouhg, that speaks of a huge and wonderful, plan.

How can we appreciate the beautyof the tapestry we live in when we are but a single thread in one tiny part of the pattern?

[kensloft]

sagan wrote: :wah:


Hey brother! We've got one on the line. Hook line and sinker. Don't let on that we got 'im. We'll reel him in real good. We'll be rich, rich, rich! Here little fishy... ?

[koan]

capt_buzzard wrote: What is Truth? There are those too, who have invented lies about the bible. I believe I know my God, and my God knows me. I don't need any church men or women to tell me any different.


What you said is Truth, Capt. You don't need anyone to tell you. On the other hand you seem to have fun listening or you wouldn't keep coming to these threads. :wah:

[koan]

kensloft wrote: Hey brother! We've got one on the line. Hook line and sinker. Don't let on that we got 'im. We'll reel him in real good. We'll be rich, rich, rich! Here little fishy... ?


You're a fast worker.

Attached files

[kensloft]

koan wrote: You're a fast worker.


Do you blame me? Live one on the hook. Hot damn.

[lady cop]

koan wrote: You're a fast worker.
evidently

[kensloft]

lady cop wrote: evidently


Evidence can be circumstantial and have effects that are not intended but being as how it is almost the Chinese New Year? Happy New Year!

[lady cop]

kensloft wrote: Evidence can be circumstantial and have effects that are not intended but being as how it is almost the Chinese New Year? Happy New Year!
thanks! year of the rooster :yh_chickn :yh_chickn ... and circumstantial evidence is GOOD evidence.

[koan]

Evidence can be circumstantial and have effects that are not intended but being as how it is almost the Chinese New Year? Happy New Year!
year of the rooster... and circumstantial evidence is GOOD evidence


Um...I don't recall any of this in the bible. Are you guys telling more truth than lies?

[lady cop]

forgive my off-topic digression. it is entirely kensloft's fault. carry on. (weren't there :yh_chickn :yh_chickn in the Bible?)

[kensloft]

lady cop wrote: forgive my off-topic digression. it is entirely kensloft's fault. carry on. (weren't there :yh_chickn :yh_chickn in the Bible?)


Jeez? We were trying to be cool and circumspect. Shucks.

[koan]

lady cop wrote: forgive my off-topic digression. it is entirely kensloft's fault. carry on. (weren't there :yh_chickn :yh_chickn in the Bible?)


Yeah but they looked like this:

Attached files

[koan]

kensloft wrote: Jeez? We were trying to be cool and circumspect. Shucks.


Sounded to me like there is an inside joke...and I'm in on it!

[kensloft]

koan wrote: Yeah but they looked like this:


That was the smaller one? Right? No wonder the Dinosaurs left.

[kensloft]

koan wrote: Sounded to me like there is an inside joke...and I'm in on it!


Joke?

[kensloft]

sagan wrote: Calm down. One mark does not a ministry make. If we are to make to the big league, along with the likes of Swaggart and Robertson, we have to set our sights a bit higher.


You are right. I should calm down but with the thoughts of all that cash rushing into my mind I just lost it. We could start them off by saying that god told us that we should tell our brothers and sisters that for every hundred dollars that they give to us we will give them 2 days off of the length of time that they have to stay outside of the gates of heaven making up for all those white lies and shady deals that they did in their lives while on earth.

That noise you hear is them lining up. Boy, I can hear them lining up their pockets just so we can get at them easier. Now I know how a fishmonger feels on a good day. Seeing all that food lined up, ready to be cleaned. We'll tell them that we are cleaning their... ummm... er...ahhh... their souls. :yh_idea They'll never know what hit them. If we are real cool about it we can get their kid's allowances too.

We can ressurrect Jim's place and have people pay scads of cash to stay there because if they go anywhere else they might sin. This way they won't have any intermediaries between us and their cash. Should we sell them our own cash vouchers that they can spend while resting at the complex. That way we get the cash right up front and we will have to deduct service charges if they want to change it back into that other stuff that they use outside our prenises.

Should we leave a barrel at the gates so that people can throw in their unused vouchers?

[kensloft]

sagan wrote: Certainly been thinking about this haven't you partner? You’re the man with the business plan - go for it!

I've thought of a great hook to get the suckers away from the established religions. It goes like this: through divine revelation, I've been told personally by god that heaven is a scam, it's hotter than hell there, only 'true believers', i.e. ours, will go to the real land of milk and honey. The beauty of this line of B.S. is that I can prove it!


It is really off the top of my head. The real planning comes when we get our scam working with your proof. We can become known as "Brotherhood Salvation. BS for short. They feel guilty about thinking about us in the bs terms and give us more cash. It's a match made in hea... er... what are we going to call the place that our vic... er... umm... visiting flockare going to go to?

Regardless of how it goes God will be watching over us.