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possitive statements and thoughts only please

"pe-di-ah-kawn-aus ente play-nay"

jimbo;564345 wrote: "pe-di-ah-kawn-aus ente play-nay"




? What?

jimbo;564330 wrote: possitive statements and thoughts only please


Christ was aware who betrayed him and chose to let it happen.

Imladris;564347 wrote: ? What?






:wah: :wah:





i have no idea i'd hope one of you guys could tell me



i was reading this mag in the dentist waiting room ,its all about the gospel according to Judas ,it says basically ,that Jesus told Judas to betray him ,so as he could fulfill his mission ,imagine if the guy was innocent ,hated all through the centuries like that:-3

koan;564349 wrote: Christ was aware who betrayed him and chose to let it happen.




do you ever get fed up with being so bloody clever :-3 :-3 :wah:

I've always thought Judas got a raw deal in the retelling.

Soberano;564356 wrote: Nah, nobody hates Jesus, or Jebus as Homer called him.




for judas ....... look up sol cambell:mad:

koan;564355 wrote: I've always thought Judas got a raw deal in the retelling.




this book is really thought provoking:-3 :-3





ok religious nuts feel free to pile in now :sneaky:

Ummm........... he added some new words/ meanings to our vocabulary? :rolleyes: ~ betray, traitor, Judas Kiss, thirty pieces of silver.....

Humour? ~ On Will & Grace, Jack and Will once dated the same man, and ended up going behind each others' back to do so:

Jack: How could you betray me like this? We had a deal, and you stabbed me in the back. [gasp] Judas! You're Judas! This is exactly what he did!

Will: Mmm...don't know that the big problem there was a gay love triangle. :rolleyes:

Recent discoveries: Gospel of Judas

During the 1970s, a Coptic papyrus was discovered near Beni Masah, Egypt. This has been translated and appears to be a text from the 2nd century A.D. describing the story of Jesus's death from the viewpoint of Judas. The conclusion of the text refers (in Coptic) to the text as "the Gospel of Judas" (Euangelion Ioudas).

According to a 2006 translation of the manuscript of the text, it is apparently a Gnostic account of an arrangement between Jesus and Judas, who in this telling are Gnostically enlightened beings, with Jesus asking Judas to turn him in to the Romans to help Jesus finish his appointed task from God.

One philosophical conception was that Judas Iscariot's only motivation in betraying Jesus to the Romans was to help him, as Jesus' closest friend, through doing what no other disciple could bring himself to do. This portrayal shows Judas obeying Jesus' covert request to help him fulfill his destiny to die on the cross, thus making Judas the catalyst for the event later interpreted as bringing about humanity's salvation. This view of Judas Iscariot is curiously reflected in the recently discovered and translated third or fourth-century text, the Gospel of Judas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Iscariot

I always thought that he intended to not die on the cross.

It was the bit where they let the other bloke go instead that messed up his plans.

koan;564381 wrote: I always thought that he intended to not die on the cross.

It was the bit where they let the other bloke go instead that messed up his plans.


i have to argue the point with you there koan

jimbo;564407 wrote: i have to argue the point with you there koan


Point at spot. It's always his fault.

There is a theory that Judas was chosen for the onerous task of betraying Jesus. The theory runs that he was asked by Jesus to betray him in order that the crucifixion would happen. As the most favoured disciple and as a willing collaborator Judas became the faciliator of salvation.



Google provides links to many sites on the newly discovered 'Gospel of Judas', this is just one of them. It casts Judas in a whole new light.



http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2 ... udas_x.htm

Joe;564447 wrote: Google provides links to many sites on the newly discovered 'Gospel of Judas', this is just one of them. It casts Judas in a whole new light.That's the Gospel Jimbo quoted "pe-di-ah-kawn-aus ente plah-nay" from. It's not a forgery, but it's not written by Judas either. I'd guess the phrase might mean "the disciples being led astray," and starts one of the passages, but I don't know which and I doubt if I'm getting the words right too. Jimbo assumes too much about the abilities of his audience sometimes.

is there anyone who thinks the biblical gospels don't indicate that Jesus actively wanted to be crucified? I can't see what the stories mean if that's not the case, the plot doesn't make any sense otherwise. I'd go with the "Judas as hero" point of view, even though he got a bad reputation for it afterwards.

Joe;564447 wrote: There is a theory that Judas was chosen for the onerous task of betraying Jesus. The theory runs that he was asked by Jesus to betray him in order that the crucifixion would happen. As the most favoured disciple and as a willing collaborator Judas became the faciliator of salvation.



Google provides links to many sites on the newly discovered 'Gospel of Judas', this is just one of them. It casts Judas in a whole new light.



http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2 ... udas_x.htm




thanks joe :-6

Rapunzel is in line with present day scholarly research. The Gospel of Judas was written probably in the second century CE.

The question of Judas is an interesting one. Since the gospels are not biography but what the evangelists and the church had come to think about Jesus at the time of writing we cannot even be sure if Judas was a real extant human being or a metaphor invented to get Jesus to the cross.

The gospels were not written by people who had a personal experience of Jesus. In fact the names "The Gospel According to . . ." were added long after the gospels had been written. In fact no one is sure who actually wrote them but many scholars do not believe it was Matthew etc.

We know very little about this Jesus from a historical point of view. He was born to Mary and perhaps Joseph. In addition we know that he was a: mystic, spirit person, healer, exorcist, man who had such profound experiences of the divine that his will became one with the divine, carpenter, non-violent resistor, teacher etc. We know that he died by crucifixion. Anything after that enters the realm of theology and as such we have only metaphor with which to define or describe the divine. Our languages are simply not adequate in any sense of the word. The divine is beyond our conceptualization abilities.

Shalom

Ted:-6

spot;564458 wrote: is there anyone who thinks the biblical gospels don't indicate that Jesus actively wanted to be crucified?


If this is so, why would he need anybody's help? Crucifixion was a fairly common form of execution by the Romans. I can't help but think that the Roman and Jewish leadership would have been eager to grant his wish, whether Judas kissed him or not.

BH672;565486 wrote: [quote=spot]is there anyone who thinks the biblical gospels don't indicate that Jesus actively wanted to be crucified?If this is so, why would he need anybody's help? Crucifixion was a fairly common form of execution by the Romans. I can't help but think that the Roman and Jewish leadership would have been eager to grant his wish, whether Judas kissed him or not.[/QUOTE]This isn't a complaint or anything, but answering a question with a question leaves me uninformed. Was that a yes or a no?

I'm quite sure Jesus could have got himself crucified entirely off his own bat, as you say. If being sacrificed symbolically as the Paschal Lamb of God was symbolic - andd it does seem to have been taken that way subsequently - then the timing was crucial so an intermediary handled it. Besides, it's much nicer to have someone around who really understands what's going on in these circumstances.

spot;565556 wrote: This isn't a complaint or anything, but answering a question with a question leaves me uninformed. Was that a yes or a no?



I'm quite sure Jesus could have got himself crucified entirely off his own bat, as you say. If being sacrificed symbolically as the Paschal Lamb of God was symbolic - andd it does seem to have been taken that way subsequently - then the timing was crucial so an intermediary handled it. Besides, it's much nicer to have someone around who really understands what's going on in these circumstances.




ignore BH672 Spot , i think it had to be betrayal of god by man and yet he or she forgives us.... son of god ,born ,owned up crucified himself is not much of a story really is it??? i doubt somehow 2000 years on we would be even talking about it ... bloody clever those story writers eh :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Soberano;565561 wrote: He is not actually dead, only two weeks ago he walked into the Holiday Inn in Plymouth, he threw three six inch nails on the counter and asked to be put up for the night.




honestly that is so wrong ... the one time i'm being normal you do this to me

your a bad man :wah: :wah:



i was so going to try and be good today:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

spot;565556 wrote: This isn't a complaint or anything, but answering a question with a question leaves me uninformed. Was that a yes or a no?
Yes, he was compelled to be crucified. No, he didn't need any help.

spot wrote: I'm quite sure Jesus could have got himself crucified entirely off his own bat, as you say. If being sacrificed symbolically as the Paschal Lamb of God was symbolic - andd it does seem to have been taken that way subsequently - then the timing was crucial so an intermediary handled it. Besides, it's much nicer to have someone around who really understands what's going on in these circumstances.
Prior to entering Jerusalem, Jesus began showing his disciples that he would be put to death. They, including Judas, clearly didn't understand what he was talking about. Therefore, labeling Judas a hero or an understanding intermediary is a mystery to me. I'm simply following the theme of the thread, not making a judgement call on the predestination of Judas' decision.

BH672;565656 wrote: Yes, he was compelled to be crucified. No, he didn't need any help.



Prior to entering Jerusalem, Jesus began showing his disciples that he would be put to death. They, including Judas, clearly didn't understand what he was talking about. Therefore, labeling Judas a hero or an understanding intermediary is a mystery to me. I'm simply following the theme of the thread, not making a judgement call on the predestination of Judas' decision.




hey buddy dont get cross about it:wah: :wah:

jimbo;565658 wrote: hey buddy dont get cross about it:wah: :wah:


Geez! I forgot, Patsy doesn't like it when I say Geez. :wah:



Geez!

BH672;565656 wrote: Yes, he was compelled to be crucified. No, he didn't need any help.

Prior to entering Jerusalem, Jesus began showing his disciples that he would be put to death. They, including Judas, clearly didn't understand what he was talking about. Therefore, labeling Judas a hero or an understanding intermediary is a mystery to me. I'm simply following the theme of the thread, not making a judgement call on the predestination of Judas' decision.I've no idea what you think the Last Supper was about, then. It's John 13:21+

Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, "I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me." His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant. ... "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the bowl." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot ... "What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him,How much more complicity are you looking for?

spot;565669 wrote: I've no idea what you think the Last Supper was about, then.
It was Jesus supposedly demonstrating the reality of a new covenant, wasn't it? If my position was that there had been no betrayal, your post would be valid. As I have simply stated that Jesus needed no help in finding his way to the cross, your strawman response misses the point.

spot wrote: How much more complicity are you looking for?
The New Testament is full of examples of Jesus knowing people's thoughts and what they were about to do. If this is true, it should come as no surprise that he knew what was in Judas' heart. Releasing him to carry it out is not the same as the two of the them conspiring together to make it happen.

It seems a matter of interpretation, then. I've always read that passage as a commissioning of something previously discussed. Nobody's going to be "right" in a question like this. I think either point of view can be read into the text.

I'm interested in your interpretation, though. Do you believe Jesus helped set up his own betrayal, and if he hadn't, would he still have been crucified?

Thanks :-6

I'm not even sure He's not entirely fictional, myself, in terms of being one first-century Jew in the Holy Land, not that matters much as far as the validity of Christian teaching's concerned. In terms of the story and why it's the way it is, yes I'm sure He was aware of the Old Testament prophesies of the Suffering Servant and was enacting everything in order to force the onset of the Kingdom of God on earth. If you're Messiah you do that sort of thing, surely. Ted, I think, would disagree with me and say that the prophesy fulfilments were redacted in by the gospel's authors as additional components to history. The reason I'd disagree with that is there would be so little left after removing them, and so little coherent discernible sense of intention remaining.

Would He have been crucified if He'd just sat back and waited? I expect so, but not at the significant Passover moment He was aiming for.

spot:-6

Present scholarship is of the opinion that the prophets were not speaking about some time in the very distant future but about their own time. They were calling their people back to God from whom they had strayed. The predictions were more limited. i.e. If you don't come back to God we are going to be in serious trouble in the very near future like next week.

The prophesy fulfilled is the creation of the evangelists who, after deciding that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, went to the Hebrew scriptures to find events and stories that seemed to point to the Messiah and then wrote the story up that way. It was not an attempt to deceive but to show how important they felt this Jesus was. It is midrashic.

So we then come to the question is Judas part of the parable about Jesus or an historical figure? My personal feeling is that he was part of the parable and not an historical character.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted;565933 wrote: The prophesy fulfilled is the creation of the evangelists who, after deciding that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, went to the Hebrew scriptures to find events and stories that seemed to point to the Messiah and then wrote the story up that way.That suggests to me that Jesus didn't think he was the Messiah, for if he had he'd have been sufficiently interested in messianic fulfilment requirements to have behaved messianically. He may well not have thought so, how can one tell.

Were first century Jews also of the opinion that the prophets (of previous times) were not speaking about some time in the very distant future (ie. the first century) but about the prophets' own (previous) time? I thought eschatology was rife in the first century and that indeed first century Jews did think that the predicted events of ancient prophecy were being fulfilled in their lifetimes. It's that opinion of first century Jews on the nature of prophecy which matters when interpreting their motivation, not ours.

BH672;565772 wrote: I'm interested in your interpretation, though. Do you believe Jesus helped set up his own betrayal, and if he hadn't, would he still have been crucified?

Thanks :-6


It was God's Plan, Jesus knew all along, just like he knew that Peter would deny him three times and the **** would crow.

WonderWendy3;566022 wrote: It was God's Plan, Jesus knew all along, just like he knew that Peter would deny him three times and the **** would crow.




this not the thread for swearing ww....... next time use rooster :wah: :wah:

jimbo;566024 wrote: this not the thread for swearing ww....... next time use rooster :wah: :wah:


well, umm it's biblical and I was using it in the correct sense...sorry if I offended anyone...yes another term is Rooster

WonderWendy3;566029 wrote: well, umm it's biblical and I was using it in the correct sense...sorry if I offended anyone...yes another term is Rooster


that just makes you even more furry

spot:-6

The considered opinion among many scholars (Crossan, Borg, Spong, Gordon etc) is that Jesus in fact never thought of himself as being the Messiah. This opinion is based on tracing the words attributed to Jesus in the Bible. Some have been traced back to the historical Jesus and others in reality represent what the early church had come to believe about this Jesus.

I don't think the prophets thought they were prophesying great events in the distant future but what was going to happen in the "Here and now". The Jewish folks new this. That is the milieu they grew up in.

There were predictions of the end of times from long before Jesus was ever born. During his life and shortly thereafter they did expect the day of the Lord. Jesus himself expected it during his lifetime or shortly thereafter.

Now, I don't think there is much doubt among Christendom that Jesus was in fact the Messiah.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Far Rider;567390 wrote: Judas wasnt in my opinion in a covert operation in cahoots with God to aid in the crucifixion...



He simply fell to human nature and got greedy, Christ knew this since he is also God, made statements so others would be aware that another prophetical statement that marked him as the Christ had been fulfilled.



Nothing more than the human nature of sin present around God incarnate and a mention of what happened...



Whats compelling is how Judas killed himself after, that gives us some glimpse into the regret of his ways. If he were in cahoots in some covert operation, why kill himself?



Great thread!




good point:-6

The whole problem with Judas' death is the Bible gives two different ways that he died: Matt 27:5 and Acts 1:18.

Shalom

Ted:-6

FarRider:-6

Looks like two to me. In one he hangs himself and in the other he falls and splits open. How they are the same would be interesting.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Far Rider;567390 wrote: Judas wasnt in my opinion in a covert operation in cahoots with God to aid in the crucifixion...

He simply fell to human nature and got greedy, Christ knew this since he is also God, made statements so others would be aware that another prophetical statement that marked him as the Christ had been fulfilled.

Nothing more than the human nature of sin present around God incarnate and a mention of what happened...

Whats compelling is how Judas killed himself after, that gives us some glimpse into the regret of his ways. If he were in cahoots in some covert operation, why kill himself?

Great thread!


Whilst doing it at the request of Jesus as a deliberate step in a pre-planned path he was not prepared for the degree of hatered and approbation he then received from his friends who were not in on the plan?

There are many possible reasons but the above would cover it nicely.

Bryn Mawr;569235 wrote: Whilst doing it at the request of Jesus as a deliberate step in a pre-planned path he was not prepared for the degree of hatered and approbation he then received from his friends who were not in on the plan?



There are many possible reasons but the above would cover it nicely.




brilliant point