ForumGarden

Scrat;444796 wrote: The European military command acknowledged the deaths of an indeterminate number of civilians in various operations in the south and said it felt profoundly sorry about the deaths.




"Gee...we're really sorry..."

It's disgraceful.

http://www.itv.com/news/0f42bcafc857438 ... 6d08f.html

http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/ ... y=16&go=go

http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/ ... y=16&go=go

Hope the links work. My technical expertise is not up to ensuring it does.

Has it occurred to you that just launching air attacks without checking first plays right in to the hands of the taliban. Feeding false information to your enemy is classic. believing everything youare told by "informants" just because you want to is not a smart move.

Scrat you don't need to scour arab sites to find reports on what is happening and get dodgy translations. This incident is widely reported.

It's called war. Mistakes happen sometimes..

Scrat;445093 wrote: I copy and pasted the article from another site/forum, I simply stumbled across it. I didn't really take the time to check anything, my bad.



I haven't seen anything in the American press about this Far. It doesn't seem to be news worthy.

Sad isn't it? :-3


being cynical, maybe because it's british and canadian troops fighting so the US media don't find it interesting enough.

According to Nic Mohammed,


Maybe Mohammed is lying. Nah, that couldn't be it!

P.S. Far Rider, it's good to see you again.

Far Rider;444853 wrote: I see yer Still passing out thier lies Scrat!

I suppose its nice to see some things never change!

So I have some questions since your link is non functional:

Was this attack led by US Aircraft? Since this article you posted indicates that its the US aggression..."The event was later confirmed by the military command of the European forces supporting the aggression by the United States...."

I was just wondering since there isnt an official NATO anything that goes by the name "military command of the European forces".

Nor could I find any link accept this one you posted (which doesnt work) that has a Nic Mohammad, or a "Provencial Council" attached to afghanistan.

I'd really think Military.com would have a huge article posted about this one for sure!

You ought to be ashamed of yourself, its one thing to post a tragedy when it happens, and intelligently point fingers and blame where it belongs, its another to seek out disparaging stories, do no follow up to confirm the truth, blame your own country and condemn an action that IF it did occur, would be viewed as a tragic error.

Honestly there must not be enough errors by the US for your liking.


Instead of just rubbishing the report Far, try looking :-

The Washington Post reported it as :-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00249.html

Based on a report by Reuters.

Also,

Yesterday, one of Nato's senior commanders in Afghanistan apologised after civilians died in an air raid against Taliban militants in the country's south on Thursday.

Speaking from the US' Bagram airbase, General James Jones claimed that the insurgents had used villagers from Panjwai, a largely residential district located 15 miles west of Kandahar, as human shields.

Nato's official line is that 12 civilians and about 80 militants were killed, but local estimates say that the figures should be reversed.

Afghan president Hamid Karzai has said he was "hurt and saddened" by the deaths, and has already set up an inquiry to investigate the circumstances of the air strike.

General Jones said: "That innocent people were wounded or killed is to be regretted and investigated. I personally apologise for the incident, for any loss of life.



Apart from the automatic "human shields" excuse (difficult to tell from the air and to soon to have been checked on the ground), NATO does not appear to be denying it.

zinkyusa;445155 wrote: It's called war. Mistakes happen sometimes..


and "mistakes" like that breed little terrorists and we've all seen where that leads.

You do not have 4 to 5 hour air raids on residential areas unless you're quite happy to see large scale civilian casualties.

If you have to, a single precision strike on a known target (with the intellegance to back you up) might be acceptable but this was not an accident.

Bryn Mawr;445319 wrote: and "mistakes" like that breed little terrorists and we've all seen where that leads.

You do not have 4 to 5 hour air raids on residential areas unless you're quite happy to see large scale civilian casualties.

If you have to, a single precision strike on a known target (with the intellegance to back you up) might be acceptable but this was not an accident.


How do you know it was not accident? Afghans constantly give bad intelligence to NATO in an effort to even scores against rival warlords..I say accident in the sense that it was probably not done with intent of killing civilians..Still doesn't seem to much information available over here about the details.

zinkyusa;445647 wrote: How do you know it was not accident? Afghans constantly give bad intelligence to NATO in an effort to even scores against rival warlords..I say accident in the sense that it was probably not done with intent of killing civilians..Still doesn't seem to much information available over here about the details.


Because colatteral damage during a 4-5 hour air raid in a residential district is not an accident - it is an almost certain outcome that has to be factored into the planning regardless of how good or bad your intelegence is.

Bryn Mawr;445689 wrote: Because colatteral damage during a 4-5 hour air raid in a residential district is not an accident - it is an almost certain outcome that has to be factored into the planning regardless of how good or bad your intelegence is.


Where did you find information that this was a 4-5 hour raid on a residential area. There would be nothing left of the area if it was really that long. I suspect there is some bad reporting going on. Still virtually nothing about it in the American press.

Scrat;446265 wrote: Are we questioning what a "raid" is now?

Zinky it doesn't so much matter how those people were killed, whether it was with FAEs, bullets, wet noodles or bubble gum.

They died in a NATO action. The people who saw it, who survived it will remember it.

That's what you have to focus on. The people, not the reasons/reasoning. It is the lack of focus on the people that have brought us to this point.


Of course it does matter how and why the people were killed. While I have great sympathy for all innocent lives lost in a war it is still an unfortunate fact that innocent people get killed in war. There are a lot less innocent people being killed by NATO and US forces which try to avoid killing civilians than by the terrorists who deliberatley target them.

zinkyusa;445988 wrote: Where did you find information that this was a 4-5 hour raid on a residential area. There would be nothing left of the area if it was really that long. I suspect there is some bad reporting going on. Still virtually nothing about it in the American press.


From the report in the Washington Post I linked to in my previous post.

Admittedly the 4 to 5 hour estimate was supplied by the local elders but, prior to the promised investigation, that's the available data.

:yh_ooooo

nah, couldn't be.

Ghost of Gardners Past. yeah, that's it.

gotta get some sun. I'm seeing things.:-3

Far Rider;447319 wrote: ahahaha nice AV bud!

yer not kididn you need sun, whats that pastey white skin good for anyway?:wah:


hello friend.

damn good to see ya.

:-4 Hi Far!

Far!!! howdy. :yh_bigsmi

You're right, it isn't a war against terror.

Far Rider;447291 wrote: Ok... First we are not in a war on terror, thats a misnomer... we are actually in a war against radical Islam (the Jihadist) thier MO is terror.




Then might I suggest that we've been brought into this under even more false pretences than anyone thought.

Whilst prople in the UK could, reluctantly, accept the need to go after the specific group who carried out the 9/11 attack they would *never* have accepted a religious war.

Given the history of religios wars around here the concept is a no-no.

If I may.

The culture that is killing us is secular progressive, politically correct, humanism. The Judeo Christian values that used provide our moral compass still have value. With those values no one would be calling us amoral. We can thank the careful planning of the immoral left for taking over our institutions of “higher learning. As a result, we have so strongly embraced political correctness that we can’t say what needs to be said to wake up the masses to our plight. Because of that, I am deeply disturbed and sad to the core of my being.

The dreams I had for my children and grandchildren are slipping away so rapidly it feels hopeless.

Diuretic;449909 wrote: Of course you may

What are the differences between secular humanism and Judeo-Christian values? Apart from belief in a deity I mean.


The secular humanist seeks direction from conventional wisdom. Judeo Christianity teaches that wisdom comes from the one who designed and created us¦the one who knows us better than we can possibly know ourselves.

Secular humanism and case law have in common the tendency to drift toward easy solutions and feel good wisdom. In it there is no anchor, course to follow or perceived price to pay, no matter what direction it chooses.

Diuretic;449914 wrote: But what are the differences? What are the differences between the moralty of secular humanism and that of Judeo-Christianity? I mean apart from the deity.


Abortion is one example. The high regard for life taught in Judeo Christianity causes followers to draw the line at its conception. Ending life at any point after conception is wrong. The secular humanist relies on reason and a sense for what is right that can be tainted by emotion or selfishness and the line moves all over the place.

Adultery is committed by the Christian when the heart changes its commitment from the one it has entered into covenant with to another. The secular humanist places the line where it suits the human heart and mind and in the minds of some the line could be beyond sexual contact.

Murder is committed by the Christian when they wish another was dead. The secular humanist would say it has been committed when someone actually dies at the hand of another.

Stealing for the Christian is coveting something belonging to another. Stealing for the secular humanist is defined by laws that could actually permit someone to take a car, drive it around, then return it and only be guilty of a joy ride.

I hope I’ve given examples that explain the difference.

Diuretic;449921 wrote: Okay I appreciate the response Clint. Do you believe that western liberal democracies (eg the US, UK, Canada, Australia etc) should be governed by those principles you've enunciated? Or should secular law govern? I'll tell you up front that I'm right in there supporting secular law, not some sort of canon law governing everyone including non-Christians.


I don't think a democracy can avoid adopting the values of its majority. I think it would be wrong to prevent those values from being expressed or used in the making of law. The principles I enunciated shouldn't be thrown out because they are Judeo Christian any more than a principal that doesn't originate there should be thrown out. Having said that, I believe Judeo Christian principles would serve us best. That doesn't mean I believe citizens should be held accountable by anyone for what they think, believe or feel.