I was wondering about this as I have started reading the Koran and soem of it's history. Certainly in the early parts of the Koran the message seems to be tolerance of other faiths, it even states that forced conversion is a sin. In later parts of the Koran there are statements that seem to encourage violence against non-believers. I have also read the Koran implies abrrogation meaning that the parts that came later chronologically override the early parts. It seems that more violent parts are later chronologially indicating that these parts override the tolerant parts.
I always like to believe that all the religions may be able to find a way to coexist in peace but if Muslims tke the Koran literally and believe in abrrogation I am not so sure that is possible for them.
I didn't provide any quotes but I'll get them if any of premises are viewed to be incorrect..:-6
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
I've read parts of the Koran but not all of it. My impression was that it's like the Christian scriptures.....ambiguous, contradictory and easily interpreted to suit the reader.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
Lulu2 wrote: I've read parts of the Koran but not all of it. My impression was that it's like the Christian scriptures.....ambiguous, contradictory and easily interpreted to suit the reader.
That's for sure.
That's for sure.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
Mohammed was supposedly visited by the angel Gabriel who gave him the word of God. I have heard some scholars say the Koran was more tolerant at the beginnig because the Muslims were outnumbered and living among the "unbelievers" in Mecca. After they were forced to move to Medina and they gained strenght there was less reason for tolerance and the message of Koran becomes more intolerant. Using the practice of abbrogation, which some scholars say is implied in the Koran, the message of these early parts is overriden by the later ones.:-5
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
zinkyusa wrote: I was wondering about this as I have started reading the Koran and soem of it's history. Certainly in the early parts of the Koran the message seems to be tolerance of other faiths, it even states that forced conversion is a sin. In later parts of the Koran there are statements that seem to encourage violence against non-believers. I have also read the Koran implies abrrogation meaning that the parts that came later chronologically override the early parts. It seems that more violent parts are later chronologially indicating that these parts override the tolerant parts.
I always like to believe that all the religions may be able to find a way to coexist in peace but if Muslims tke the Koran literally and believe in abrrogation I am not so sure that is possible for them.
I didn't provide any quotes but I'll get them if any of premises are viewed to be incorrect..:-6
The bible is used to sanction violence, racism, misogyny, child beating, mutilation-so is the koran.
They are similar in that they can be used to justify almost anything you want them to. It's not the books that are the problem but the way they are used and interpreted.
All monotheistic religons have at their heart the idea that only one religon is right despite them all agreeing on the central point that there is only one god-so how can there be false gods and why fight over it? It's like fighting over the colour blue. There is a blue but going to war over who has the right shade.
I always like to believe that all the religions may be able to find a way to coexist in peace but if Muslims tke the Koran literally and believe in abrrogation I am not so sure that is possible for them.
I didn't provide any quotes but I'll get them if any of premises are viewed to be incorrect..:-6
The bible is used to sanction violence, racism, misogyny, child beating, mutilation-so is the koran.
They are similar in that they can be used to justify almost anything you want them to. It's not the books that are the problem but the way they are used and interpreted.
All monotheistic religons have at their heart the idea that only one religon is right despite them all agreeing on the central point that there is only one god-so how can there be false gods and why fight over it? It's like fighting over the colour blue. There is a blue but going to war over who has the right shade.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
gmc wrote: The bible is used to sanction violence, racism, misogyny, child beating, mutilation-so is the koran.
They are similar in that they can be used to justify almost anything you want them to. It's not the books that are the problem but the way they are used and interpreted.
All monotheistic religons have at their heart the idea that only one religon is right despite them all agreeing on the central point that there is only one god-so how can there be false gods and why fight over it? It's like fighting over the colour blue. There is a blue but going to war over who has the right shade.
That's pretty much the reason I don't practice any of the traditonal religions.
They are similar in that they can be used to justify almost anything you want them to. It's not the books that are the problem but the way they are used and interpreted.
All monotheistic religons have at their heart the idea that only one religon is right despite them all agreeing on the central point that there is only one god-so how can there be false gods and why fight over it? It's like fighting over the colour blue. There is a blue but going to war over who has the right shade.
That's pretty much the reason I don't practice any of the traditonal religions.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
(PINKY: "mad as a badger in a bucket of squidgy stuff.") :wah: :wah: :wah:
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
The way Islam spread at it's creation is quite peaceful and kind of cute. The Jews were always making fun of Muhammad and he actively sought good relations with them. Some of the Jewish people gave him advice on how to stand up for himself and how to answer the jibes. Muhammad was very respectful of the Jews and Christians because their religion had been around so much longer. He specifically condones both as "followers of the book". The swords that first get raised in the Islamic religion as a part of any fundamentalism is a result of the slaughtering of Muhhamad's descendants.
One of the differences between Sunni and Shi’ite Islam is that the latter, who dominate Iran and form the majority in Iraq, believe that Allah shielded or hid Muhammad al-Mahdi as the Twelfth Imam. Their original martyr was the third imam who marched instead of hiding and was murdered on the plain of Kerbala by Umayyad troops.
Husain's march against tyranny became a symbol of profound truth regarding the ceaseless struggle between Good and Evil at the heart of human existence.
summarized from History of God and Battle For God, Karen Armstrong.
One of the differences between Sunni and Shi’ite Islam is that the latter, who dominate Iran and form the majority in Iraq, believe that Allah shielded or hid Muhammad al-Mahdi as the Twelfth Imam. Their original martyr was the third imam who marched instead of hiding and was murdered on the plain of Kerbala by Umayyad troops.
Husain's march against tyranny became a symbol of profound truth regarding the ceaseless struggle between Good and Evil at the heart of human existence.
summarized from History of God and Battle For God, Karen Armstrong.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
Here are some quotes that are not very cute:
IV.138: Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the right way.
IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
IV.92: And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave , and blood-money should be paid to his people unless they remit it as alms; but if he be from a tribe hostile to you and he is a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (suffices), and if he is from a tribe between whom and you there is a covenant, the blood-money should be paid to his people along with the freeing of a believing slave; but he who cannot find (a slave) should fast for two months successively: a penance from Allah, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
XVI.8: It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, and if you (again return to disobedience) We too will return (to punishment), and We have made hell a prison for the unbelievers.
II.161: Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;
IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them.
IV.76: Those who believe fight in the cause of God.
IV.74: Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward.
VIII.39-42: Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's
IV.138: Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the right way.
IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
IV.92: And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave , and blood-money should be paid to his people unless they remit it as alms; but if he be from a tribe hostile to you and he is a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (suffices), and if he is from a tribe between whom and you there is a covenant, the blood-money should be paid to his people along with the freeing of a believing slave; but he who cannot find (a slave) should fast for two months successively: a penance from Allah, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
XVI.8: It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, and if you (again return to disobedience) We too will return (to punishment), and We have made hell a prison for the unbelievers.
II.161: Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;
IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them.
IV.76: Those who believe fight in the cause of God.
IV.74: Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward.
VIII.39-42: Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
zinkyusa,
you can go ahead and pull out for show all the violent passages out of religious text. It will work for them all. I prefer to not do that. You can also find universal peaceful doctrines such as The Golden Rule. Do unto others.... that is a common thread in all major religions. You should post all the violent bits from the bible though, just to balance yourself out. The Old Testament will represent both Christianity and Judaism.
Your point is?
you can go ahead and pull out for show all the violent passages out of religious text. It will work for them all. I prefer to not do that. You can also find universal peaceful doctrines such as The Golden Rule. Do unto others.... that is a common thread in all major religions. You should post all the violent bits from the bible though, just to balance yourself out. The Old Testament will represent both Christianity and Judaism.
Your point is?
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
koan wrote: zinkyusa,
you can go ahead and pull out for show all the violent passages out of religious text. It will work for them all. I prefer to not do that. You can also find universal peaceful doctrines such as The Golden Rule. Do unto others.... that is a common thread in all major religions. You should post all the violent bits from the bible though, just to balance yourself out. The Old Testament will represent both Christianity and Judaism.
Your point is?
Koan, did you read all my posts? My point is that the more violent passages are chronologically later in the Koran. If the Koran implies abbrogation is true then these more violent passages override the more gentle ones in the beginning . I am asking if the Koran sanctions violence against non-believers, or is there another way to interprate the Koran?
I am making a serious effort to understand Islam and it's history becuase I don't want to believe the west is faced with a convert or be killed relationship with Muslims.
I am not trying to present any kind of picture one way or the other about Islam vis a vis Christianity, Judaism etc, Besides they have their own threads this one is about Islam.
you can go ahead and pull out for show all the violent passages out of religious text. It will work for them all. I prefer to not do that. You can also find universal peaceful doctrines such as The Golden Rule. Do unto others.... that is a common thread in all major religions. You should post all the violent bits from the bible though, just to balance yourself out. The Old Testament will represent both Christianity and Judaism.
Your point is?
Koan, did you read all my posts? My point is that the more violent passages are chronologically later in the Koran. If the Koran implies abbrogation is true then these more violent passages override the more gentle ones in the beginning . I am asking if the Koran sanctions violence against non-believers, or is there another way to interprate the Koran?
I am making a serious effort to understand Islam and it's history becuase I don't want to believe the west is faced with a convert or be killed relationship with Muslims.
I am not trying to present any kind of picture one way or the other about Islam vis a vis Christianity, Judaism etc, Besides they have their own threads this one is about Islam.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
zinkyusa wrote: Koan, did you read all my posts? My point is that the more violent passages are chronologically later in the Koran. If the Koran implies abbrogation is true then these more violent passages override the more gentle ones in the beginning . I am asking if the Koran sanctions violence against non-believers, or is there another way to interprate the Koran?
I am making a serious effort to understand Islam and it's history becuase I don't want to believe the west is faced with a convert or be killed relationship with Muslims.
I am not trying to present any kind of picture one way or the other about Islam vis a vis Christianity, Judaism etc, Besides they have their own threads this one is about Islam.
Like Christianity there are different sects in Islam. They interprete parts of the Koran differently. I'd go talk to the Whirling Dervishes if I were you. After a few spins it might all make sense.
I am making a serious effort to understand Islam and it's history becuase I don't want to believe the west is faced with a convert or be killed relationship with Muslims.
I am not trying to present any kind of picture one way or the other about Islam vis a vis Christianity, Judaism etc, Besides they have their own threads this one is about Islam.
Like Christianity there are different sects in Islam. They interprete parts of the Koran differently. I'd go talk to the Whirling Dervishes if I were you. After a few spins it might all make sense.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
koan wrote: Like Christianity there are different sects in Islam. They interprete parts of the Koran differently. I'd go talk to the Whirling Dervishes if I were you. After a few spins it might all make sense.
The ones that believe in abbrogation seem to be speaking the loudest these days. :-3
The ones that believe in abbrogation seem to be speaking the loudest these days. :-3
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
zinkyusa wrote: The ones that believe in abbrogation seem to be speaking the loudest these days. :-3
The press and politicians are speaking the loudest about them. While you might not be "trying to present any kind of picture one way or the other about Islam vis a vis Christianity, Judaism etc," I fear that others are.
The fundamentalists in Islam actually show very poor tendancies to follow their religion. The 9/11 terrorists went drinking and partying the night before the WTC attacks. They don't really represent the religion of Islam.
The press and politicians are speaking the loudest about them. While you might not be "trying to present any kind of picture one way or the other about Islam vis a vis Christianity, Judaism etc," I fear that others are.
The fundamentalists in Islam actually show very poor tendancies to follow their religion. The 9/11 terrorists went drinking and partying the night before the WTC attacks. They don't really represent the religion of Islam.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
koan wrote: The press and politicians are speaking the loudest about them. While you might not be "trying to present any kind of picture one way or the other about Islam vis a vis Christianity, Judaism etc," I fear that others are.
The fundamentalists in Islam actually show very poor tendancies to follow their religion. The 9/11 terrorists went drinking and partying the night before the WTC attacks. They don't really represent the religion of Islam.
I actually have a very good friend who is a Palestinian, he insists that Islam is a peaceful relgion and he knows his Koran. I think the fundamentalist use the Koran as a means to further their own aims. I am more worried about sects like the Wahabis (sorry about the spelling) in Saudis Arabia and Pakistan who operate the Mahdras and preach intolerance to Muslim kids. I am also baffled by Muslims brought up in toher countries like England from seemingly good homes, well educated and ell off who suddenly convert to these extremists views and become terrorists.
The fundamentalists in Islam actually show very poor tendancies to follow their religion. The 9/11 terrorists went drinking and partying the night before the WTC attacks. They don't really represent the religion of Islam.
I actually have a very good friend who is a Palestinian, he insists that Islam is a peaceful relgion and he knows his Koran. I think the fundamentalist use the Koran as a means to further their own aims. I am more worried about sects like the Wahabis (sorry about the spelling) in Saudis Arabia and Pakistan who operate the Mahdras and preach intolerance to Muslim kids. I am also baffled by Muslims brought up in toher countries like England from seemingly good homes, well educated and ell off who suddenly convert to these extremists views and become terrorists.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
zinkyusa wrote: I actually have a very good friend who is a Palestinian, he insists that Islam is a peaceful relgion and he knows his Koran. I think the fundamentalist use the Koran as a means to further their own aims. I am more worried about sects like the Wahabis (sorry about the spelling) in Saudis Arabia and Pakistan who operate the Mahdras and preach intolerance to Muslim kids. I am also baffled by Muslims brought up in toher countries like England from seemingly good homes, well educated and ell off who suddenly convert to these extremists views and become terrorists.
I think you should believe your friend.
I also think you should believe the US gov't in the matter of what this war is about. It is not, imo, about religion. That the terrorists are Muslim is incidental. They are rebelling against the occupation, and what they see as theft, of their land, the assassinations of their leaders and the interference of foreign governments in their societies.
That Muslims are now becoming terrorists without any direct reason shows just how badly the War Against Terrorism is doing.
I think you should believe your friend.
I also think you should believe the US gov't in the matter of what this war is about. It is not, imo, about religion. That the terrorists are Muslim is incidental. They are rebelling against the occupation, and what they see as theft, of their land, the assassinations of their leaders and the interference of foreign governments in their societies.
That Muslims are now becoming terrorists without any direct reason shows just how badly the War Against Terrorism is doing.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
Islam is not a violent religion. But the extremists that interpret the religion in the wrong way have made the world think of it that way, and in a way the media doesnt help much either.
eg: A friend of mine is from afghanistan, and was telling me about how the Taliban (extremists) have come into afghanistan and bascially taken over and applied their laws to the country. Thing is .. afghanistan is a muslim country and want the taliban out.. why? because islam is not violent, and forceful as the taliban see it.
So by a handful of extreme violent muslims the whole religion has been given a bad name.
eg: A friend of mine is from afghanistan, and was telling me about how the Taliban (extremists) have come into afghanistan and bascially taken over and applied their laws to the country. Thing is .. afghanistan is a muslim country and want the taliban out.. why? because islam is not violent, and forceful as the taliban see it.
So by a handful of extreme violent muslims the whole religion has been given a bad name.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
That MIGHT be a reason. However, the Taliban suppressed the growth of opium poppies, a significant source of revenue. Local farmers object to this...they want money and opium's a good way to get it.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
does schizophrenic come to mind here. mohamad. ex the spell errors. went to his best friend and demanded his nine year old daughter as a wife. in those days. it was customary that when you declared brothers for life, then eachothers familys were yours as well to look after it went against their practices for him to ask for the girl he did not care The rules did not apply to him. he changed the rules to suit him. Joseph Smith (who started the mormons) had the same kind of personality.
personally i think he had a few too many bats flying around in his head.
personally i think he had a few too many bats flying around in his head.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
guppy wrote: does schizophrenic come to mind here. mohamad. ex the spell errors. went to his best friend and demanded his nine year old daughter as a wife. in those days. it was customary that when you declared brothers for life, then eachothers familys were yours as well to look after it went against their practices for him to ask for the girl he did not care The rules did not apply to him. he changed the rules to suit him. Joseph Smith (who started the mormons) had the same kind of personality.
personally i think he had a few too many bats flying around in his head.
hey no need to drag bats into this miss fish!:(
personally i think he had a few too many bats flying around in his head.
hey no need to drag bats into this miss fish!:(
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
zinkyusa wrote: hey no need to drag bats into this miss fish!:(
he was a few french fries short of a happy meal??
he was a few french fries short of a happy meal??
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
guppy wrote: he was a few french fries short of a happy meal??
better:D
better:D
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
zinkyusa wrote: I think the fundamentalist use the Koran as a means to further their own aims.
I think you said a mouthful here, because I believe, as others have stated, that part of the problem (if not all of the problem) with the current view of Islam are the extremists, and they are the ones who "use the Koran as a means to further their own aims". IMO they aren't as concerned with following their religion as they are spreading terror, hence them being considered terrorists. It's an abomination to the religion of Islam that these people commit their atrocities in it's name.
Now, that being said, I do not fully udnerstand the religion, and don't purport to, however I have a very hard time painting all Muslims as bad simply because a few of them are.
I think you said a mouthful here, because I believe, as others have stated, that part of the problem (if not all of the problem) with the current view of Islam are the extremists, and they are the ones who "use the Koran as a means to further their own aims". IMO they aren't as concerned with following their religion as they are spreading terror, hence them being considered terrorists. It's an abomination to the religion of Islam that these people commit their atrocities in it's name.
Now, that being said, I do not fully udnerstand the religion, and don't purport to, however I have a very hard time painting all Muslims as bad simply because a few of them are.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
well said mystery..
one thing people should get into their minds is that the terrorists are not bombing things because of the religion. Islam says that who ever commits suicide goes straight to hell - so if these suicide bombers etc, were any sort of muslims .. they wouldnt have done what they did..
one thing people should get into their minds is that the terrorists are not bombing things because of the religion. Islam says that who ever commits suicide goes straight to hell - so if these suicide bombers etc, were any sort of muslims .. they wouldnt have done what they did..
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
gmc wrote: The bible is used to sanction violence, racism, misogyny, child beating, mutilation-so is the koran.
They are similar in that they can be used to justify almost anything you want them to. It's not the books that are the problem but the way they are used and interpreted.
All monotheistic religons have at their heart the idea that only one religon is right despite them all agreeing on the central point that there is only one god-so how can there be false gods and why fight over it? It's like fighting over the colour blue. There is a blue but going to war over who has the right shade.
There is little need to interpret the koran. It says what it says and is taken literally by people who have been its hostages and kept in the seventh century by its teachings.
The Bible is subject to understanding and that cannot be achieved unless it is studied in depth. Without such study, it most certainly may be used to further any and all activities.
A good understanding of the bible and a reading the koran, will show that the latter has heavily plagiarized the former. Mahomet also included all extant mytholigies of his time. He was illiterate, and certainly influenced by the peoples he conquered, Jewish wives, Jewish scribes, etc. Looking at him through modern medial knowledge and the extraordinary information about him available, it would seem he suffered with temporal lobe epilepsy, which manifests in the behavior he displayed.
They are similar in that they can be used to justify almost anything you want them to. It's not the books that are the problem but the way they are used and interpreted.
All monotheistic religons have at their heart the idea that only one religon is right despite them all agreeing on the central point that there is only one god-so how can there be false gods and why fight over it? It's like fighting over the colour blue. There is a blue but going to war over who has the right shade.
There is little need to interpret the koran. It says what it says and is taken literally by people who have been its hostages and kept in the seventh century by its teachings.
The Bible is subject to understanding and that cannot be achieved unless it is studied in depth. Without such study, it most certainly may be used to further any and all activities.
A good understanding of the bible and a reading the koran, will show that the latter has heavily plagiarized the former. Mahomet also included all extant mytholigies of his time. He was illiterate, and certainly influenced by the peoples he conquered, Jewish wives, Jewish scribes, etc. Looking at him through modern medial knowledge and the extraordinary information about him available, it would seem he suffered with temporal lobe epilepsy, which manifests in the behavior he displayed.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
Atsila wrote: There is little need to interpret the koran. It says what it says and is taken literally by people who have been its hostages and kept in the seventh century by its teachings.
The Bible is subject to understanding and that cannot be achieved unless it is studied in depth. Without such study, it most certainly may be used to further any and all activities.
A good understanding of the bible and a reading the koran, will show that the latter has heavily plagiarized the former. Mahomet also included all extant mytholigies of his time. He was illiterate, and certainly influenced by the peoples he conquered, Jewish wives, Jewish scribes, etc. Looking at him through modern medial knowledge and the extraordinary information about him available, it would seem he suffered with temporal lobe epilepsy, which manifests in the behavior he displayed.
The Qu'ran does not plagerize the Bible, it references it often as it was supposed to be a correction to the message of Bible.
The Bible is subject to understanding and that cannot be achieved unless it is studied in depth. Without such study, it most certainly may be used to further any and all activities.
A good understanding of the bible and a reading the koran, will show that the latter has heavily plagiarized the former. Mahomet also included all extant mytholigies of his time. He was illiterate, and certainly influenced by the peoples he conquered, Jewish wives, Jewish scribes, etc. Looking at him through modern medial knowledge and the extraordinary information about him available, it would seem he suffered with temporal lobe epilepsy, which manifests in the behavior he displayed.
The Qu'ran does not plagerize the Bible, it references it often as it was supposed to be a correction to the message of Bible.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
AnswerMe wrote: well said mystery..
one thing people should get into their minds is that the terrorists are not bombing things because of the religion. Islam says that who ever commits suicide goes straight to hell - so if these suicide bombers etc, were any sort of muslims .. they wouldnt have done what they did..
Suicide bombers, who are martyrs for islam, go to heaven upon death. So it is taught. In muslim heaven, 'affectionatly' called the bordello in the sky, are waiting for them a never-ending supply of virgins, and the unlimited strength to handle them. Also, little boys for additional pleasure.
That is why muslims love death. Check it out on the net.
We call the suicide bombers, they do not.
one thing people should get into their minds is that the terrorists are not bombing things because of the religion. Islam says that who ever commits suicide goes straight to hell - so if these suicide bombers etc, were any sort of muslims .. they wouldnt have done what they did..
Suicide bombers, who are martyrs for islam, go to heaven upon death. So it is taught. In muslim heaven, 'affectionatly' called the bordello in the sky, are waiting for them a never-ending supply of virgins, and the unlimited strength to handle them. Also, little boys for additional pleasure.
That is why muslims love death. Check it out on the net.
We call the suicide bombers, they do not.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
zinkyusa wrote: The Qu'ran does not plagerize the Bible, it references it often as it was supposed to be a correction to the message of Bible.
There is a great deal of evidence to the contrary. I am unable to post links. I'm not aware that the Bible needs correction except in the mind of cultists. And, surely you know that 'supposed to be's' are questionable?
There is a great deal of evidence to the contrary. I am unable to post links. I'm not aware that the Bible needs correction except in the mind of cultists. And, surely you know that 'supposed to be's' are questionable?
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
Atsila wrote: Suicide bombers, who are martyrs for islam, go to heaven upon death. So it is taught. In muslim heaven, 'affectionatly' called the bordello in the sky, are waiting for them a never-ending supply of virgins, and the unlimited strength to handle them. Also, little boys for additional pleasure.
That is why muslims love death. Check it out on the net.
We call the suicide bombers, they do not.
Actually the Vrigins are not be used sexually by the martyrs they are there to minister to them, never heard of the little boys thing..gotta ref in the Qu'ran please?
That is why muslims love death. Check it out on the net.
We call the suicide bombers, they do not.
Actually the Vrigins are not be used sexually by the martyrs they are there to minister to them, never heard of the little boys thing..gotta ref in the Qu'ran please?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
ArnoldLayne wrote: Thats the first I have heard of any reference of that nature. Or is that just convenient embelishment ?
It's easy enough to investigate. Muslim apologists deny it, the way they deny that islam is a war machine, which they call a religion of peace. Muslims practice al takeyya.
Have you studied islam much?
It's easy enough to investigate. Muslim apologists deny it, the way they deny that islam is a war machine, which they call a religion of peace. Muslims practice al takeyya.
Have you studied islam much?
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
zinkyusa wrote: Actually the Vrigins are not be used sexually by the martyrs they are there to minister to them, never heard of the little boys thing..gotta ref in the Qu'ran please?
Best I can do for you today is point you to Craig Winn's 'Prophet of Doom'. You'll find it on the net.
Best I can do for you today is point you to Craig Winn's 'Prophet of Doom'. You'll find it on the net.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
ArnoldLayne wrote: Listen, I am as much a target for Islamic fundementalism as you or anybody else. But I will not be sucked into an acceptance that Islam is a war machine. Fundamentalism of any kind might be but mainstream Islam is as peaceful as any other.
Individual nutcases make fundamentalism a reality not the koran.
I know of Fundamentalist Christians that believe in the literal interpretation of Leviticus and Exodus. I presumably wont need to remind you of what is contained within those books
I dont buy into this all muslims are medieval war mongerers. I suspect you are reading that which confirms your prejudices
My prejudices are confirmed by the daily news, and reinforced by study, and vice versa. Fundamentalism is a Christian/Protestant term and cannot be applied anywhere else, since it describes specific functions. It is also used by the media to be disparaging of Christians, and to give islam a certain legitimacy.
ALL muslims are subject to the teachings of the koran. NONE have a choice or the right to be selective as to what is personally acceptable to them. Or, they are NOT muslims.
Those who use any part of the Bible to further death and destruction, have no clue that what is contained in the mandates you cite, is not done without explicit directives, such as the Jews received.
Individual nutcases make fundamentalism a reality not the koran.
I know of Fundamentalist Christians that believe in the literal interpretation of Leviticus and Exodus. I presumably wont need to remind you of what is contained within those books
I dont buy into this all muslims are medieval war mongerers. I suspect you are reading that which confirms your prejudices
My prejudices are confirmed by the daily news, and reinforced by study, and vice versa. Fundamentalism is a Christian/Protestant term and cannot be applied anywhere else, since it describes specific functions. It is also used by the media to be disparaging of Christians, and to give islam a certain legitimacy.
ALL muslims are subject to the teachings of the koran. NONE have a choice or the right to be selective as to what is personally acceptable to them. Or, they are NOT muslims.
Those who use any part of the Bible to further death and destruction, have no clue that what is contained in the mandates you cite, is not done without explicit directives, such as the Jews received.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
ArnoldLayne wrote: We can argue semantics all night long. I will continue to use the word fundamentalist in conjunction with Islam, if only to clarify my position. I dont see any difference in the literal interpratation of any holy scripture. You cannot make a blanket statement that one cannot be a true muslim if you do not follow the Koran literally but in the same arguement state that any literal interpretation of the Bible has attached to it, explicit directives.
My local shopkeeper, who I have known many years, would argue very strongly that he is a true and peaceful muslim and not the nutters who would have us bound by medieval Sharia constricts. They, he would say are the ones that have defiled Islam. You cannot then negate his faith by saying that he would be required by "true" Islamic law to lie. Thats a cop out
I happen to believe, however, that it would be a much more peaceful world for all of us if those of an extreme Islamic faith, chose to live in a place where they found acceptance, ie Saudi Arabia, Pakistan
Thank you. I'm not here to abolish cherished beliefs. We achieve our depths and that is where we hope to flourish.
Won't you ask your shopkeeper if he is familiar with the term al takeyya. I would love to know what he tells you. Just say someone on the net used the term and you are interested in its meaning.
I wish you good things. Don't know if you are Christian, doesn't matter, many blessings to you. Nice to meet you, hope to see you often.
My local shopkeeper, who I have known many years, would argue very strongly that he is a true and peaceful muslim and not the nutters who would have us bound by medieval Sharia constricts. They, he would say are the ones that have defiled Islam. You cannot then negate his faith by saying that he would be required by "true" Islamic law to lie. Thats a cop out
I happen to believe, however, that it would be a much more peaceful world for all of us if those of an extreme Islamic faith, chose to live in a place where they found acceptance, ie Saudi Arabia, Pakistan
Thank you. I'm not here to abolish cherished beliefs. We achieve our depths and that is where we hope to flourish.
Won't you ask your shopkeeper if he is familiar with the term al takeyya. I would love to know what he tells you. Just say someone on the net used the term and you are interested in its meaning.
I wish you good things. Don't know if you are Christian, doesn't matter, many blessings to you. Nice to meet you, hope to see you often.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
The Arabic word, "Takeyya", means "to prevent," or guard against. The principle of Al Takeyya conveys the understanding that Muslims are permitted to lie as a preventive measure against anticipated harm to one's self or fellow Muslims. This principle gives Muslims the liberty to lie under circumstances that they perceive as life threatening. They can even deny the faith, if they do not mean it in their hearts.
basically.. it means, in order to protect yourself a lie is acceptable. so .. what exactly would be your point.? im pretty sure you would like to give a negative interpretation to it.. so go ahead.
just like finding flaws in the islamic faith you could find flaws in every faith.. anyone can make a negative interpretation out of anything.. so.. please amuse me.
basically.. it means, in order to protect yourself a lie is acceptable. so .. what exactly would be your point.? im pretty sure you would like to give a negative interpretation to it.. so go ahead.
just like finding flaws in the islamic faith you could find flaws in every faith.. anyone can make a negative interpretation out of anything.. so.. please amuse me.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
Just passing through quickly but couldn't resist this.
Are we to believe that Muslims are the only ones who lie? :yh_rotfl
At least they say that they will only do it to avoid harm. Praises for that. The internet is awash with a letter being sent out about "al-takeyya". Show me a culture that doesn't lie. At least they are honest about it. lol
Are we to believe that Muslims are the only ones who lie? :yh_rotfl
At least they say that they will only do it to avoid harm. Praises for that. The internet is awash with a letter being sent out about "al-takeyya". Show me a culture that doesn't lie. At least they are honest about it. lol
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
Diuretic wrote: I'm always intrigued when someone who isn't a Muslim seeks to pronounce on Islam's teachings. And I'm always intrigued when someone who isn't a Christian seeks to pronounce on the tenets of Christianity. I can accept that either person may have knowledge but I am more persuaded if an Imam or a Priest is doing the talking about the theology.
Therein lies the fundamental problem with all religon. Why do you need a priest to interpret things for you, are priests somehow endowed with greater wisdom and intelligence than you? make up your own mind and study for yourself.
Theocracies (or any other ocracy come to that) always try and control what people read and listen to for fear that people start thinking for themselves and turn round and say Hang on it doesn't actually say that at all you're bullshitting me.
Therein lies the fundamental problem with all religon. Why do you need a priest to interpret things for you, are priests somehow endowed with greater wisdom and intelligence than you? make up your own mind and study for yourself.
Theocracies (or any other ocracy come to that) always try and control what people read and listen to for fear that people start thinking for themselves and turn round and say Hang on it doesn't actually say that at all you're bullshitting me.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
ArnoldLayne wrote: Thank you Atsila. I will ask. I suspect there are one or two members who are not on line at the moment will post their understanding of the phrase. It normally happens. Koan, I'm sure will show an interest.
While obviously bought up within a christian background, I have no faith. I am proud to live in a secular environment which allows all to practise that which spititualises them.
I am, I suppose, an Athiest but not one which would deny others the freedom of their own God. I always try to respect that and learn from it. On the other hand I would like those same freedoms afforded to me and of course I have. My feelings are that IF there is a God/Supreme being, he would be loving enough to embrace those that do not believe. Simply to follow a faith blindly in the sure knowledge that you will be in the queue at the gates of St Peter ahead of all those non believers, doesnt sit comfortably with me and my understanding of a loving, forgiving God. He gave me the ability to form my own views and to live my life accordingly. I suspect my attitudes and values may be more "Chridtian than some I know
Not to say that I would be chosen but there are a few "Christians" that would be waaaay down the list
But then I also suspect you may disagree
Hi, Arnold! Thank you for your words. I am Christian, but do not criticize those that are not. But, I do most certainly pay attention to what goes on around the world, who does the 'going', and why. I do my studies through resources that are reliable and that reliability is determined by me based on what is said about the subject. The subject needs to practice what is said about it.
BTW, there are twelve gates......oh yeah.......and there would have to be twelve Peters......LOL
Now that I can post links, I'll give you the following to use for a springboard, if you wish to study more.
======
Like most religions, Islam in general, forbids lying. The Quran says, "Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies." Surah 40:28. In the Hadith, Mohammed was also quoted as saying, "Be honest because honesty leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. Beware of falsehood because it leads to immorality, and immorality leads to Hell."
However, unlike most religions, within Islam there are certain provisions under which lying is not simply tolerated, but actually encouraged. The book "The spirit of Islam," by the Muslim scholar, Afif A. Tabbarah was written to promote Islam. On page 247, Tabbarah stated: "Lying is not always bad, to be sure; there are times when telling a lie is more profitable and better for the general welfare, and for the settlement of conciliation among people, than telling the truth. To this effect, the Prophet says: 'He is not a false person who (through lies) settles conciliation among people, supports good or says what is good."
http://www.islamreview.com/articles/lying.shtml
=======
I brought up al takeyya to make you aware that a muslim will say anything to promote islam, and also do anything.
Jihad is a requirement for all muslims. I know from study and personal discussions with them.
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/USAWC/para ... /knapp.htm
Muslim apologists will say anything to draw attention from the true nature of islam. What they call the religion of peace is 'PEACE' according to what they think that is.
I hope that helps, Arnold, and I hope you are on your way to learn and understand islam.
While obviously bought up within a christian background, I have no faith. I am proud to live in a secular environment which allows all to practise that which spititualises them.
I am, I suppose, an Athiest but not one which would deny others the freedom of their own God. I always try to respect that and learn from it. On the other hand I would like those same freedoms afforded to me and of course I have. My feelings are that IF there is a God/Supreme being, he would be loving enough to embrace those that do not believe. Simply to follow a faith blindly in the sure knowledge that you will be in the queue at the gates of St Peter ahead of all those non believers, doesnt sit comfortably with me and my understanding of a loving, forgiving God. He gave me the ability to form my own views and to live my life accordingly. I suspect my attitudes and values may be more "Chridtian than some I know
Not to say that I would be chosen but there are a few "Christians" that would be waaaay down the list
But then I also suspect you may disagree
Hi, Arnold! Thank you for your words. I am Christian, but do not criticize those that are not. But, I do most certainly pay attention to what goes on around the world, who does the 'going', and why. I do my studies through resources that are reliable and that reliability is determined by me based on what is said about the subject. The subject needs to practice what is said about it.
BTW, there are twelve gates......oh yeah.......and there would have to be twelve Peters......LOL
Now that I can post links, I'll give you the following to use for a springboard, if you wish to study more.
======
Like most religions, Islam in general, forbids lying. The Quran says, "Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies." Surah 40:28. In the Hadith, Mohammed was also quoted as saying, "Be honest because honesty leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. Beware of falsehood because it leads to immorality, and immorality leads to Hell."
However, unlike most religions, within Islam there are certain provisions under which lying is not simply tolerated, but actually encouraged. The book "The spirit of Islam," by the Muslim scholar, Afif A. Tabbarah was written to promote Islam. On page 247, Tabbarah stated: "Lying is not always bad, to be sure; there are times when telling a lie is more profitable and better for the general welfare, and for the settlement of conciliation among people, than telling the truth. To this effect, the Prophet says: 'He is not a false person who (through lies) settles conciliation among people, supports good or says what is good."
http://www.islamreview.com/articles/lying.shtml
=======
I brought up al takeyya to make you aware that a muslim will say anything to promote islam, and also do anything.
Jihad is a requirement for all muslims. I know from study and personal discussions with them.
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/USAWC/para ... /knapp.htm
Muslim apologists will say anything to draw attention from the true nature of islam. What they call the religion of peace is 'PEACE' according to what they think that is.
I hope that helps, Arnold, and I hope you are on your way to learn and understand islam.
Does the Koran Sanction Violence?
ArnoldLayne wrote: Atsila, the sources that I have read seem all to confirm that Al takeyya is a principle where a Muslim may lie to prevent harm to oneself or fellow muslim.
One even described the interpretation of this principle by some as a hyperbole, wherein an exaggeration of its use, might be implied to emphasise its effect.
It only exagerates the dangers of trying to interpret any ancient writings. Writings or scriptures that were pertinent to the ways of the world then.
A Muslim countering your arguement could argue that the bible is full of dichotomies and contradictions that are left to interpretation, depending on the message you wish to convey (there is even a thread here in the forum dedicated to such contradictions)
Should we kill?
Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder.
Ex. 32:27 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his side...and slay every man his brother...companion..neighbor.(See also 1 Sam. 6:19; 15:2,3; Num. 15:36)
I would expect someone well versed in the Bible to explain the interpretation. Which one would you expect, say, a muslim wishing to ridicule the Bible, to pick as the true word of God ?
Beat me to the punch Arn.. I was about to post some Biblical contradictions but you've made the point;)
One even described the interpretation of this principle by some as a hyperbole, wherein an exaggeration of its use, might be implied to emphasise its effect.
It only exagerates the dangers of trying to interpret any ancient writings. Writings or scriptures that were pertinent to the ways of the world then.
A Muslim countering your arguement could argue that the bible is full of dichotomies and contradictions that are left to interpretation, depending on the message you wish to convey (there is even a thread here in the forum dedicated to such contradictions)
Should we kill?
Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder.
Ex. 32:27 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his side...and slay every man his brother...companion..neighbor.(See also 1 Sam. 6:19; 15:2,3; Num. 15:36)
I would expect someone well versed in the Bible to explain the interpretation. Which one would you expect, say, a muslim wishing to ridicule the Bible, to pick as the true word of God ?
Beat me to the punch Arn..
I was about to post some Biblical contradictions but you've made the point;)You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.