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I guess because it refered to the Uncle Remus stories......

"Didn't the fox never catch the rabbit, Uncle Remus?" asked the little boy the next evening.



"He come mighty nigh it, honey, sho's you born--Brer Fox did. One day atter Brer Rabbit fool 'im wid dat calamus root, Brer Fox went ter wuk en got 'im some tar, en mix it wid some turkentime, en fix up a contrapshun w'at he call a Tar-Baby, en he tuck dish yer Tar-Baby en he sot 'er in de big road, en den he lay off in de bushes fer to see what de news wuz gwine ter be. En he didn't hatter wait long, nudder, kaze bimeby here come Brer Rabbit pacin' down de road--lippity-clippity, clippity -lippity--dez ez sassy ez a jay-bird. Brer Fox, he lay low. Brer Rabbit come prancin' 'long twel he spy de Tar-Baby, en den he fotch up on his behime legs like he wuz 'stonished. De Tar Baby, she sot dar, she did, en Brer Fox, he lay low.



"`Mawnin'!' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee - `nice wedder dis mawnin',' sezee.



"Tar-Baby ain't sayin' nuthin', en Brer Fox he lay low.



"`How duz yo' sym'tums seem ter segashuate?' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee.



"Brer Fox, he wink his eye slow, en lay low, en de Tar-Baby, she ain't sayin' nuthin'.



"'How you come on, den? Is you deaf?' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee. 'Kaze if you is, I kin holler louder,' sezee.



"Tar-Baby stay still, en Brer Fox, he lay low.



"'You er stuck up, dat's w'at you is,' says Brer Rabbit, sezee, 'en I;m gwine ter kyore you, dat's w'at I'm a gwine ter do,' sezee.



"Brer Fox, he sorter chuckle in his stummick, he did, but Tar-Baby ain't sayin' nothin'.



"'I'm gwine ter larn you how ter talk ter 'spectubble folks ef hit's de las' ack,' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee. 'Ef you don't take off dat hat en tell me howdy, I'm gwine ter bus' you wide open,' sezee.



"Tar-Baby stay still, en Brer Fox, he lay low.



"Brer Rabbit keep on axin' 'im, en de Tar-Baby, she keep on sayin' nothin', twel present'y Brer Rabbit draw back wid his fis', he did, en blip he tuck 'er side er de head. Right dar's whar he broke his merlasses jug. His fis' stuck, en he can't pull loose. De tar hilt 'im. But Tar-Baby, she stay still, en Brer Fox, he lay low.



"`Ef you don't lemme loose, I'll knock you agin,' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee, en wid dat he fotch 'er a wipe wid de udder han', en dat stuck. Tar-Baby, she ain'y sayin' nuthin', en Brer Fox, he lay low.



"`Tu'n me loose, fo' I kick de natal stuffin' outen you,' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee, but de Tar-Baby, she ain't sayin' nuthin'. She des hilt on, en de Brer Rabbit lose de use er his feet in de same way. Brer Fox, he lay low. Den Brer Rabbit squall out dat ef de Tar-Baby don't tu'n 'im loose he butt 'er cranksided. En den he butted, en his head got stuck. Den Brer Fox, he sa'ntered fort', lookin' dez ez innercent ez wunner yo' mammy's mockin'-birds.



"`Howdy, Brer Rabbit,' sez Brer Fox, sezee. `You look sorter stuck up dis mawnin',' sezee, en den he rolled on de groun', en laft en laft twel he couldn't laff no mo'. `I speck you'll take dinner wid me dis time, Brer Rabbit. I done laid in some calamus root, en I ain't gwineter take no skuse,' sez Brer Fox, sezee."



Here Uncle Remus paused, and drew a two-pound yam out of the ashes.



"Did the fox eat the rabbit?" asked the little boy to whom the story had been told. "Dat's all de fur de tale goes," replied the old man. "He mout, an den agin he moutent. Some say Judge B'ar come 'long en loosed 'im - some say he didn't. I hear Miss Sally callin'. You better run 'long."

I think the way it was used, wasn't meant to be derogatory at all. I think he meant "a sticky situation" which is an understatement for that tunnel disaster.

He said "tarbaby" as in the tar of the road that was built and the "pit "as in the bridge. I see no racial epithet, HOWEVER, "tarbaby" is generally used as a racial term (derogatory) and I find it hideous. Couldnt he have said "sticky bridge that had no scietnific believablility to be stable".

I know I'm awfully tired of total PC... but in this case, I have to go

with it's a slur and he shouldn't have said it.



There are too many out there to whom it is offensive.



We've just all got to work harder at thinking before we speak, maybe.

Im drunk. Im about to get INSEMINATED! Sorry I hijacked the thread. I cant think of anything else! But I said what I had to say!

All these long explainations for what has become politically correct. I am a white woman.........never had any place in American society until the 1960's......thanks to the negro man's push to have a voice.

White women did not get a voice - a true voice - until the negro man demanded it.

Thanks.........:-4

SnoozeControl wrote: I get annoyed when an innocent and valid comment is made and these idiots have to make a big stink about it when that wasn't even the topic of discussion.
Absolutely!!!!!





"Tar baby is a totally inappropriate phrase in the 21st century," said Larry Jones, a black Republican and civil rights activist.


Oh fer crissakes...says WHO??!!?! Some people need to grow some thicker skin, and pay attention to the context in which the phrase was used. Good grief, I WISH this was the only sort of thing I had to worry about in life. :-5 :-5

it's pretty sad. tarbaby has never had a connotation as a racial epithet, except very, very recently. and the only people who see it as a racial epithet are people expressing their own racial bigotry. 'ooo tarbaby. tar is black. black baby. racist!'. pathetic.



just like niggardly. a perfectly serviceable word, absolutely no racial or bigoted meaning whatsoever. but because it sounds similar to "nigger", people think it's racist.



stupidity is the new cadillac of thinking.

Far be it from me to question a statement from my oh-so-intelligent

husband... :yh_bigsmi



But I, myself, have heard the expression "tar baby" used in a derogatory

way (1960's, maybe?) and might I ask for a little clarification on Mr. A's statement that it has been used that way only very, very recently?

:yh_tongue :yh_cry

SnoozeControl wrote: Well, maybe he's as 'innocent' as I am of the meaning. I've never heard the term used that way.


I've lived in the south most of my life and neither have I. Is it a New England thing?

I grew up reading and loving the Uncle Remus books. As a child, they were just wonderful stories to me. I didn't develop any prejudices against anyone as a result. I merely enjoyed what I was reading. But then that's children for you...things are so much more simple and straightforward to them.

Well I'm from the city of the Big Dig disaster! It's truly a huge mess.

Mitt Romney has been very front-and-center throughout this whole thing. Which he should be as our governor.

Suprisingly, the 'tar baby' comment has *not* been big news around here.

Probably because we've got much bigger problems to deal with.

Like: how the heck do we know someone else isn't going to be killed with falling ceiling pieces from parts of the tunnel that aren't yet closed?

Can you imagine the GIANT lawsuit the family of the killed woman has against the city? The day after that very sad incident, the husband said he had no intention of suing the city. He said he just wanted everyone to be safe.

The next week the papers were filed. Not that I blame him -- at all.

SnoozeControl wrote: He wasn't referring to a person, for pete's sake! I don't see what the fuss is all about.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/ ... 1199.shtml


"Tar baby is a totally inappropriate phrase in the 21st century," said Larry Jones, a black Republican and civil rights activist.

If Mr. Larry Jones dis not have anything to stir the pot with, would he actually

have anything to do, I wonder?

The answer, in my opinion and experience, to your question, must be "no". It

could be the answer to my musing, too.

I'm not sure, but I think I'm offended by the product Cracker Jacks.

Cracker being a slang derogatory term for all white people, perhaps the company should rename it's product.

I'm so insulted, I can barely eat them, let alone dig for the prize. Oh look, a tar baby in my jacks!!!

911 wrote: I'm not sure, but I think I'm offended by the product Cracker Jacks.



Cracker being a slang derogatory term for all white people, perhaps the company should rename it's product.



I'm so insulted, I can barely eat them, let alone dig for the prize. Oh look, a tar baby in my jacks!!!
:yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl

Among etymologists, a slur's validity hangs heavily on history. The concept of tar baby goes way back, according to Words@Random from Random House: "The tar baby is a form of a character widespread in African folklore. In various folktales, gum, wax or other sticky material is used to trap a person." The term itself was popularized by the 19th-century Uncle Remus stories by Joel Chandler Harris, in which the character Br'er Fox makes a doll out of tar to ensnare his nemesis Br'er Rabbit. The Oxford American Dictionary defines tar baby much like Romney used it, "a difficult problem, that is only aggravated by attempts to solve it." But the term also has had racial implications. In his book Coup, John Updike says of a white woman who prefers the company of black men, "some questing chromosome within holds her sexually fast to the tar baby." The Oxford English Dictionary (but not the print version of its American counterpart) says that tar baby is a derogatory term used for "a black or a Maori."


source

imo, I can't see any reason for using it. It doesn't even have a nice ring to it in literary use.

Among etymologists, a slur's validity hangs heavily on history.
Credible source or not, I'm of the opinion that a so-called derogatory term only has as much validity as people want to give it. JMHO.

koan wrote: source

imo, I can't see any reason for using it. It doesn't even have a nice ring to it in literary use.


it has a long and perfectly serviceable history of use in discourse without any derogatory meaning. why should perfectly useful terms be eliminated because someone *chose* to attach a derogatory connotation to it after the fact?

anastrophe wrote: it has a long and perfectly serviceable history of use in discourse without any derogatory meaning. why should perfectly useful terms be eliminated because someone *chose* to attach a derogatory connotation to it after the fact?


Using that logic, then, Mr. A, would you think that terms using the words

"jungle" and "bunny" or "camel" and "jockey" or even "carpet" and "pilot"

NOT be eliminated? They all have a perfectly serviceable history of

use, one would think. Until such time as someone *chose* to attach

derogatory connotations to them.



Not trying to be sarcastic, truly just interested in what you think.

valerie wrote: Using that logic, then, Mr. A, would you think that terms using the words

"jungle" and "bunny" or "camel" and "jockey" or even "carpet" and "pilot"

NOT be eliminated? They all have a perfectly serviceable history of

use, one would think. Until such time as someone *chose* to attach

derogatory connotations to them.



Not trying to be sarcastic, truly just interested in what you think.


i'll turn you over my knee, young lady.



the conflated terms are derogatory; the individual components are not. there is no non-derogatory use for the term junglebunny, its only definition is one that's a racist epithet. references to the jungle, or to bunnies - detached from each other - have no explicit derogatory meaning.



tarbaby initially meant a sticky situation. that some racists thought to conflate the meaning because because tar is 'black' therefore a tarbaby is a 'black baby', doesn't negate the initial meaning's non-derogatory nature.

anastrophe wrote: i'll turn you over my knee, young lady.


MUST you 2 bring your sex life into the Garden??? :yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl



Sorry, kids, I could NOT resist that one!!! I'll shut up now....

BabyRider wrote: MUST you 2 bring your sex life into the Garden??? :yh_rotfl



Sorry, kids, I could NOT resist that one!!! I'll shut up now....
:yh_blush Well THAT effectively killed this thread, didn't it? :yh_blush

SnoozeControl wrote: Maybe those two just got too 'busy' to answer you.


Geez

Are they done yet? :sneaky: :p

Darn...I've missed this thread until just now. As a child, I loved the Uncle Remus tales of clever creatures who managed their problems with funny and innovative solutions. Did I understand them that way at the time? Of course not! I just knew they were fun. Imagine my amazement when I learned that the POLITICALLY CORRECT POLICE have managed to remove just about every copy of the sweet animated film from every source imagineable?

Mr. Romney was the victim of the PROFESSIONALLY OFFENDED. His use of the term was probably more accurate than he knew at the time, eh? There must be folks who scour the news, looking for ways to politicize speech in order to direct attention to their own agenda.

Thanks to 911, I'll never pass a box of CRACKER JACKS in the store again without laughing!

(As an aside, did you know the "BROTHER RABBIT" figure was revered by local natives of the Southeast, long before European settlers arrived? Slaves learned of the local legends and incorporated the stories with those brought from Africa. "BROTHER RABBIT" was also revered in China! He's a clever fellow with many fans in folklore.)

Lulu2 wrote: Darn...I've missed this thread until just now. As a child, I loved the Uncle Remus tales of clever creatures who managed their problems with funny and innovative solutions. Did I understand them that way at the time? Of course not! I just knew they were fun. Imagine my amazement when I learned that the POLITICALLY CORRECT POLICE have managed to remove just about every copy of the sweet animated film from every source imagineable?



Mr. Romney was the victim of the PROFESSIONALLY OFFENDED. His use of the term was probably more accurate than he knew at the time, eh? There must be folks who scour the news, looking for ways to politicize speech in order to direct attention to their own agenda.



Thanks to 911, I'll never pass a box of CRACKER JACKS in the store again without laughing!



(As an aside, did you know the "BROTHER RABBIT" figure was revered by local natives of the Southeast, long before European settlers arrived? Slaves learned of the local legends and incorporated the stories with those brought from Africa. "BROTHER RABBIT" was also revered in China! He's a clever fellow with many fans in folklore.)


I remember Song Of the South! Brer Rabbit and the briar patch!

I also remember the tar baby story. I never remember it being used as a derogatory term for blacks, I give you a long list of what they do use around here! Believe me, there's a LOT. I remember my Grand Mother talking about an argument betweeen neighbors being "nothin' but a big ol tar baby".

Didn't someone refer to the Clinton impeachment as a tarbaby? I have to look that up.

C'C, I grew up in the south, too, and have no memory of "tar baby" as anything other than a "sticky wicket," so to speak. I'm interested to know who might've used that in relation to the Clinton mess...

Lulu2 wrote: C'C, I grew up in the south, too, and have no memory of "tar baby" as anything other than a "sticky wicket," so to speak. I'm interested to know who might've used that in relation to the Clinton mess...


Wow, google Clinton impeachment and Tarbaby.

911 wrote: I'm not sure, but I think I'm offended by the product Cracker Jacks.

Cracker being a slang derogatory term for all white people, perhaps the company should rename it's product.

I'm so insulted, I can barely eat them, let alone dig for the prize. Oh look, a tar baby in my jacks!!!


:D That was great.



I loved Uncle Remus as a child. I still love him today. The best part was listening to my parents try to read the dang thing. It's all but impossible. To a kid that was hilarious stuff. I think Uncle Remus is a great piece of literature and although I don't think the Tar Baby was referring to blacks, so what if it was. Things were different in Remus's time and people seem to want PC to wipe it all away.

This thread reminds me of a very old story about how words can be interpreted.

The pastor entered his donkey in a race and it won. The pastor was so pleased with the donkey that he entered it in the race again, and it won again.



The local paper read: PASTOR'S ASS OUT FRONT



The Bishop was so upset with this kind of publicity that he ordered the pastor not to enter the donkey in another race.



The next day, the local paper headline read: BISHOP SCRATCHES PASTOR'S ASS.



This was too much for the bishop, so he ordered the pastor to get rid of the

donkey. The pastor decided to give it to a nun in a nearby convent. The local paper, hearing of the news, posted the following headline the next day: NUN HAS BEST ASS IN TOWN.



The bishop fainted. He informed the nun that she would have to get rid of the donkey, so she sold it to a farmer for $10.



The next day the paper read: NUN SELLS ASS FOR $10. This was too much for the bishop, so he ordered the nun to buy back the donkey and lead it to the plains where it could run wild.



The next day the headlines read: NUN ANNOUNCES HER ASS IS WILD AND FREE

The bishop was buried the next day.

The moral of the story is....being concerned about public opinion can bring you much grief and misery...and even shorten your life. So be yourself and enjoy life... Stop worrying about everyone else's ass and you'll be a lot happier and live longer!

RedGlitter wrote: That was great.





I loved Uncle Remus as a child. I still love him today. The best part was listening to my parents try to read the dang thing. It's all but impossible. To a kid that was hilarious stuff. I think Uncle Remus is a great piece of literature and although I don't think the Tar Baby was referring to blacks, so what if it was. Things were different in Remus's time and people seem to want PC to wipe it all away.


What is PC changes every day! It's like a bunch of little girls who are scared the other is getting more attention.

Where I come from, we are SO not PC. We seem to get along ok.

WOW! LOOK at all those "tarbaby" references! Where were the SERIOUSLY OFFENDED then?

Lulu2 wrote: WOW! LOOK at all those "tarbaby" references! Where were the SERIOUSLY OFFENDED then?


Yeah, no kidding.

"But Romney was hardly the first national figure to use tar baby oblivious to its potential racial meaning.



On his very first day on the job, White House Press Secretary Tony Snow, when asked a question about domestic surveillance, begged off: "I don't want to hug the tar baby of trying to comment on the program - the alleged program - the existence of which I can neither confirm nor deny."



While Snow got some flak for using the expression, there was apparently no negative reaction when Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John F. Kerry, in a 2004 interview with Knight Ridder, recalled, in much the same manner as Romney, that he had fearlessly provided leadership in Congress to investigate whether there might be POWs and MIAs alive in Vietnam, at a time when, "Most people told me it would be a tar baby, don't do it, waste of time, can't get anywhere."



In 1993, it was Arizona GOP Sen. John McCain who argued against U.S. intervention in the "tar baby" of Bosnia.



The year before that, it was Defense Secretary Dick Cheney who invoked the image in explaining to The AP that it was a good thing that the United States had not tried to take Baghdad and remove Saddam Hussein from power during the first Gulf War. "How long could we have maintained that coalition of Arab states if we had been involved in the long-range occupation by the U.S. in Iraq? I would guess if we had gone on to Baghdad I would still have forces in Iraq today," Cheney said, adding, "I don't know how we would have let go of that tar baby once we had grabbed hold of it."



And in 1987, it was Al Gore, campaigning for the Democratic presidential nomination, who was quoted in the Arkansas Democrat Gazette warning against a big military buildup in the Persian Gulf, saying that "people should remember the lesson about the tar baby." Again, there were apparently no expressions of outrage, or calls for an apology. "

Thanks for that, C'C. There're days when I think certain factions take enormous delight in "spotting" racists behind every bush and tree!

Lulu2 wrote: Thanks for that, C'C. There're days when I think certain factions take enormous delight in "spotting" racists behind every bush and tree!


Like my grandmother said, "It all depends on who's ox is being gored." :-6

Or whose ASS is being SOLD? :wah:

Lulu2 wrote: Or whose ASS is being SOLD? :wah:


Something like that.

SnoozeControl wrote: I found the same story told without the ridiculous 'accent.' The story itself isn't bigoted, it's the author's choice of making Uncle Remus sound like he's got a speech impediment.The author was transliterating exactly the accent in which he heard the stories told to him, it's a supremely accurate encapsulation of the pronunciation in that time and place. I for one am very grateful to Joel Chandler Harris for his efforts in recording the tales. I'm appalled that anyone has had the poor taste to bowdlerise the original.

The only aspect of the stories that seem even slightly racist is the naming of the narrator as "Uncle Remus" - "uncle" might be taken as condescendingly familiar rather than an honorific recognition of the wisdom of advanced years. I'd take it as the latter myself.

The whole point of a tar baby is that it becomes more and more intractable a problem the more you struggle with it. It has nothing to do with the blackness of tar. I told the story to my children, they'll doubtless tell it to theirs. I made a fair attempt at the accent too.

spot wrote: The author was transliterating exactly the accent in which he heard the stories told to him, it's a supremely accurate encapsulation of the pronunciation in that time and place. I for one am very grateful to Joel Chandler Harris for his efforts in recording the tales. I'm appalled that anyone has had the poor taste to bowdlerise the original.



The only aspect of the stories that seem even slightly racist is the naming of the narrator as "Uncle Remus" - "uncle" might be taken as condescendingly familiar rather than an honorific recognition of the wisdom of advanced years. I'd take it as the latter myself.



The whole point of a tar baby is that it becomes more and more intractible a problem the more you struggle with it. It has nothing to do with the blackness of tar. I told the story to my children, they'll doubtless tell it to theirs. I made a fair attempt at the accent too.


Hear, Hear, Spot!



You can still find some of the old folks that live in rural areas that still talk that way. No joke. I don't think it's a disrespect to try to convey the exact way someone speaks. We both speak English, but our accents would make it seem as if we were speaking different languages. You're from Wales, I'm from West Tennessee. Oh yeah, big differences!

Spot...the honorific "Uncle/Aunt/Mammy" were applied to house servants during slave times and later. My mother's sister had a lifetime housekeeper and I called both of them "Aunt." "Granny" was another one.

I've no doubt that J.C. Harris meant the title in the most loving way.

SnoozeControl wrote: I'm amazed that you're also a linguistic expert, Spot. Is there anything you aren't knowledgeable about?I take Harris at his word - he claims authenticity in his introduction... "The dialect, it will be observed, is wholly different from that of the Hon. Pompey Smash and his literary descendants, and different also from the intolerable misrepresentations of the minstrel stage, but it is at least phonetically genuine", a statement which was endorsed by local reviewers at the time. I suspect that had his claim beem false, that fact would have been noted by his contemporaries.