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I cannot believe someone would teach a young child a story like this. A child should be innocent, not a calculated killer.

It is clear that this story must have been made up (which is a relief in its own way). But it is nonetheless sickening that Hamas are using this to encourage their children to copy Suad's example. Surely there must be an international law against this. Hamas should answer for this story.

Very sad that many of these children are raised with the belief that if they die while killing others their family will go on to have a better life.

That is so sad, to make a children's story about terrorism, and lie to children that it is the right thing to die for.

chonsigirl wrote: That is so sad, to make a children's story about terrorism, and lie to children that it is the right thing to die for.
pity they don't get it, children should celebrate life and be allowed to BE CHILDREN!!! pure evilness if you ask me.

I spend much of each year in Israel where I have my permanent home, the rest of the time I spend mostly in the UK in connection with my business though I do travel quite a lot to mostly France and Germany as well.

It is my certain knowledge that the level of ignorance about the REALITIES of what is taking place in Israel and the lands that will soon be finally partitioned is staggeringly mind-blowing. The amount of pro-palest propaganda and anti-Israeli cant is disgusting.

It is almost as if the people in Europe in general but especially France and England WANT to believe the palest lies and utterly fail to even think just WHY some of the steps that my country has had to take have been taken.

Interestingly enough in Germany there is far less willingness to support the palests, maybe because they have more experience of the realities of what is involved by so many years of Turkish Gast Arbiters in Germany. (Turkish, often illegally in the country, workers – literally ‘guest workers’)

But what you have here in the story is nothing new. It has been going on one way or another for years. There are factors that so many people in the West simply don’t, won’t, or simply can’t understand.

For example – how many realise just what the significance was in the way that arafat wore his ‘scarf’? I wonder how may even noticed. How many have even seen a palest school book that doesn’t even show Israel. How many realise that the land that the Jewish people occupy was BOUGHT from the arab owners wherever and whenever they could be traced? Or that the OWNERS sold the land and it was squatters who bitched about being moved on by the NEW OWNERS?

No matter – back to the issue in hand.

To the Moslem life has no value. It is a dangerous time that is full of pitfalls that prevent the eventual entry into paradise – the ultimate aim. If there is some way that entry to paradise can be assured then it makes perfect sense to take it. That is why we refuse to refer to the people who use their bodies as bombs as suicide cases. They are not.

They are, in their own eyes, martyrs who their god will decide should live or die when the switch is thrown to blow up the enemies of islam.

That is why we call them homicide bombers. When they throw the switch the HOPE they will e martyred and go to paradise but they are not sure – their god may dictate that they should survive.

They submit to his will.

What baloney, yet they believe it because they have been taught it. Of course they will be delighted to die, of course their parents will be delighted! Their little Ahmed or whatever has just gone to paradise! Wonderful news!

It makes me sick to see a people so abused by their leaders and their ‘religion’.

To the devout Moslem, indoctrinated constantly reinforced by rite, peer pressure, ‘cleric’ browbeating and tradition the belief in paradise is tangible and even palpable.

Palpable because I know of cases where homicide bombers have actually been shown pictures of what to expect in paradise, who will meet them, where they will be taken, and in a couple of cases actually been given physical keys to take with the on their murderous journey,

Here’s the URL that takes you to a bona fide English translation of the hammas charter. I’ve read it ad also the original in my admittedly faltering arabic and can vouch for the fact that it is overall a materially good translation.

http://www.ict.org.il/documents/documen ... m?docid=14

It’s boring as hell with all the flowery language but don’t be to quick to dismiss that as simple verbal decoration – it isn’t. It’s a sincere and deadly serious assertion and affirmation that those who embrace hammas swear by their god to uphold to the letter.

Im sorry but this just BOLLOX if i tell my kid to go blow something up and people get killed in the process thats MURDER , what these people are brainwashing their children to do is no different they will NOT go to heaven they will just be a name on a very long list of idiots .Im not interested in their cause i will never understand the muslim faith and quite frankly i dont want to - they are nutters to give birth to a child then raise it to take its own life and the life of any unlucky person around them is SICK they are SICK .You know.... they say you cant make sense out of somebody elses maddness ..how true is that.

Scrat wrote: To pirate a few lines from one of Spots posts.





What do they have to lose? What future do the Palastinians have in their own land? They do what they do because of the situation they have been forced into.


Rubbish.

Pure and simple rubbish.

If out of ignorance or out of bigotry who can say but rubbish nonetheless.

Scrat wrote: Well Golem its not exactly like their equals in the endeavor, or ever were. I say to the Israelis that you reap what you sow.

And to the world because it is all of us that have allowed this situation to get so out of hand.

Palestine/Israel should have been occupied long ago.


LOL! (Really did at that!) :wah:

It was tried.

They lost each and every time.

They always will.

And it's the ‘palests’ who are reaping what THEY have sown.

Sad to say it’s the poisonous seed that was sown by their fathers and grandfathers and even before that if you look at what Jamiat al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun got up to that they are now reaping and being polluted by in the process.

I never cease to be amazed at the depth of REAL ignorance that people have about this region and my country and its history yet are so ready to comment on and especially to criticise. :-5

Scrat wrote: To me the solution is not about ignorance, it has gone far beyond ignorance or greed for power, lies and the usual human vices that so abound there.

The solution now is the bombing of the Israeli military equipment depots, airfields and all military infrastructure followed by the occupation of both the Palastinian lands and Israeli. You then make a few laws, one being anyone who carries a gun or does any kind of harm to anyone, dies on the spot. Regardless of what they are wearing on their heads. Jerusalem would be a city of all nations.

The world could do this, if we had the will.

As of now the region is just a hashmark in the underwear of humanity. That needs to change IMO.


Israel is a sovereign nation that has been attacked since it’s inception.

The government of Israel and the IDF – if which I am a proud former member – have exercised great self control and attempted to manage civilian populations of various tribes that have become called the palestinians whilst at the same time addressing the terrorists in their midst and dealing with the rioting and mob attacks stirred up by their trouble makers.

If there is to be some international action it should be to assist us in the completion of our security fence so keeping the palest terrorists out, and so letting peace in Israel reign thereby removing the NEED for the execution of those who use their influence to murder our civilians, murder out of sheer blind intent.

Not killed and injured as a sad by product of our people doing to the terrorists and their leaders what the PA SHOULD have been doing to the filth in their midst but havn't.

As I wrote – the ignorance combined with strident opinionated bombastic rubbish about my country is simply amazing.

As I recently wrote "A little learning is a dangerous thing so drink deep, or taste not the Pieran spring. There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, but drinking deeply sobers us again."

Learn more. You will find far less to criticize.

Scrat wrote: Enlighten me more, give me links instead of rhetoric.

I will stand by my solution to this mess created by the powerful on both sides there. Disarm both sides (bomb them into the stoneage if you have too) then send in an army capable of taking out the troublemakers as they show up.

The world has been cheapened by both Israel and Palastine, it's time for the world to make the idiots payup.

It is also the only solution.


Believe me, if it wasn't Israel it would be somewhere else.

The problem isn't Israel, Israel is simply the sacrificial anode of the war between islam and the modern civilised world.

My guess is that it would be Spain. Remember, in islam once a ‘land’ has been taken by islam it remains forever islamic and it is the holy duty of every moslem to reclaim it if it is ever taken back.

Much of what is taking place in Israel has nothing to do with “disposed ‘palestinians’” and everything to do with the fear of the loss of power by those who promote islam.

To see a classic example of this look at the overthrow of the late Shah of Persia – a man who was desperately trying to drag his country into the 20th. Century and who was deposed by the mob who had been stirred up over time by the muslim clerics opposed tio such changes.

Golem and Scrat. I cannot believe that you two have turned this thread into political oneupmanship.

This thread is about the misleading of children by 'responsible' adults. We don't care if it's Hamas or any other political leadership. There isn't a single nation in the world without its skeletons, or its miscreants. And every country has its heroes.

And Hamas isn't the only country, nation or group that has used its position to manipulate children for its purposes. Please, can we have some respect for the children who have no understanding of politics.

Scrat wrote: I stand corrected. We definitely had a pointless argument going.


No problem, Scrat.

Scrat wrote: To pirate a few lines from one of Spots posts.





What do they have to lose? What future do the Palastinians have in their own land? They do what they do because of the situation they have been forced into.


The far from pojntless argument was founded on the assertion made above.

It shows a singular misunderstanding of principles and factors involved as to WHY the kids are being used as weapons of murder by the palests.

Moulding the attitude of children toward one of hatred is vile wherever you find it. Whether it's embedded on a website, school or home, it's a deliberate act of policy on the part of the mentor.

This analysis of cultural conditioning is from Akiva Orr: Israel: Politics, Myths and Identity Crises, 1993, p38:

Dr G. Tamarin, an Israeli psychologist, investigated this question in 1963. He published his results in a document entitled: A Pilot Study in Chauvinism: The Influence of Ethnico-Religious Prejudices on Moral Judgement. The research presented 1,066 [Israeli non-Arab] schoolchildren of ages 8 to 14 with two texts and asked them to answer two questions concerning each text and to explain their answers. The answers were analysed.

The main part of the first text reads:You are well acquainted with the following passages from the book of Joshua: ‘So the people shouted when the priests blew the trumpets; and it came to pass when the people heard the sound of the trumpet and the people shouted with a great shout and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went into the city every man straight ahead and they took the city. And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass with the edge of the sword. (VI, 20, 21) And that day Joshua took Makkedah and smote it with the edge of the sword and the kings thereof he utterly destroyed and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.The children were then asked to answer the following questions:1. Do you think that Joshua, and the Sons of Israel acted right or not? Explain your view.

2. Suppose the Israeli army conquers an Arab village in battle. Do you think it would be proper to act against the inhabitants as did Joshua with the people of Jericho and Makkedah? Explain your view.Out of the total of 1,066 children questioned, the number of those who fully approved of Joshua’s method and its application to Arabs was around 600; about 200 expressed total disapproval; the rest expressed partial approval or disapproval.

The same children were then presented with a 'Chinese version' of the same story, which read:General Lin, who founded the Chinese kingdom some 3,000 years ago went to war with his army to conquer them a land. They came to some great cities with high walls and strong fortresses. The Chinese War God appeared to General Lin in a dream and promised him victory, ordering him to kill all living souls in the cities, because these people belonged to other religions. General Lin and his soldiers took the towns and utterly destroyed all that was therein, both man and woman, young and old, and ox and sheep, and ass with the edge of the sword. After destroying the cities they continued their way conquering many countries.They were then asked 'Do you think that General Lin and his soldiers acted right or wrong? Explain your view.'

The answers were classified as above. The number of those who totally approved of Lin’s method was about 70; those who totally disapproved about 750; the rest expressed partial approval or disapproval.

The analysis of the answers was: On the Joshua question: 60% 20% 20%, On the General Lin question 7% 18% 75%, in the order total approval, partial approval or disapproval and total disapproval.As Orr observes, "The consciousness of the generation born in independent Israel after 1948 is moulded by the state educational system. The educational syllabus, which all schools must teach, is made up by the Ministry of Information" and, as OpenMind observed, "This thread is about the misleading of children by 'responsible' adults".

spot wrote: Moulding the attitude of children toward one of hatred is vile wherever you find it. Whether it's embedded on a website, school or home, it's a deliberate act of policy on the part of the mentor.

This analysis of cultural conditioning is from Akiva Orr: Israel: Politics, Myths and Identity Crises, 1993, p38:

As Orr observes, "The consciousness of the generation born in independent Israel after 1948 is moulded by the state educational system. The educational syllabus, which all schools must teach, is made up by the Ministry of Information" and, as OpenMind observed, "This thread is about the misleading of children by 'responsible' adults".


Considering the horrors that so many Israeli kids have seen inflicted on their friends, their relations, and their fellow Israelis the wonder is that Joshua didn't get 100% approval. That's not down to cultural conditioning - it's down to experience.

golem wrote: Considering the horrors that so many Israeli kids have seen inflicted on their friends, their relations, and their fellow Israelis the wonder is that Joshua didn't get 100% approval. That's not down to cultural conditioning - it's down to experience.That applies just to Israeli kids then, does it? Didn't we agree elsewhere that the killing ratio in Israel has been around one Israeli to three Palestinians for a long time now, and it's in the thousands? That the majority of dead on both sides are innocent non-combatants, women, and children? You're very one-sided in your criticism of the indoctrination that leads to such intransigence.

spot wrote: That applies just to Israeli kids then, does it? Didn't we agree elsewhere that the killing ratio in Israel has been around one Israeli to three Palestinians for a long time now, and it's in the thousands? That the majority of dead on both sides are innocent non-combatants, women, and children? You're very one-sided in your criticism of the indoctrination that leads to such intransigence.


Not one sided, just recognise that when the deaths and injuries sustained by a population who are deliberately put in harms way as a propaganda tool the casualty numbers are bound to be asymmetrical in a conflict when the other side protects theirs.

golem wrote: Not one sided, just recognise that when the deaths and injuries sustained by a population who are deliberately put in harms way as a propaganda tool the casualty numbers are bound to be asymmetrical in a conflict when the other side protects theirs.I suspect the suggestion that non-combatants, women, and children are "deliberately put in harm's way as a propaganda tool" is contentious, but let's assume for a moment that it's true. Is the Israeli Army really so inept, so innaccurate, so unrestrained, so unprofessional, that in the last five years over 500 children should die from what you imply to be accidental or unaimed Israeli military rifle fire? Bad form if it's deliberate, but bloody bad form if it isn't. I think they've been brought up on a bit too much Joshua, myself.

spot wrote: I suspect the suggestion that non-combatants, women, and children are "deliberately put in harm's way as a propaganda tool" is contentious, but let's assume for a moment that it's true. Is the Israeli Army really so inept, so innaccurate, so unrestrained, so unprofessional, that in the last five years over 500 children should die from what you imply to be accidental or unaimed Israeli military rifle fire? Bad form if it's deliberate, but bloody bad form if it isn't. I think they've been brought up on a bit too much Joshua, myself.


Have you actually SEEN a riot? Have you ever tried to see if the person in the floor length robe is a young teen or an early twenty year old, especially from a distance? Have you ever seen a sniper shooting from within a group of women and kids?

I have.

Scrat wrote: Golem. The stool which you preach from has 3 legs. Hatred, fanaticism and hypocrisy.

.


I don’t think that’s the case. If there are three ‘legs’ I suggest they are probably firstly well founded and justifiable patriotism.

Then a real concern, and hatred of what I see being done to the palests that makes them do the things that they do. The tragedy is that these things are not what we do as part of our own protection but the real harm and hurt is what their leaders and clerics do by lying lying lying and repeatedly creating trouble that they can then exploit.

Finally a dislike of seeing so many people so wrong in their understanding of what is taking place.

But what if we stopped fighting against those attacking us. That we pulled our security forces out of the West Bank. That we dismantled the contentious settlements.

How many hours would Israel exist as a country? Not many. It really would e like that.

Now what would happen if the palests were to declare that they would recognise Israel and they would cease all hostilities forthwith and would live in peace with us.

How much longer would the palest people live in the squalor and hardship that so many of them do.

Not long. Just long enough for a bit of trust to develop and for joint enterprises to get under way. It really would be like that.

And there’s the whole thing in a nutshell.

golem wrote: Have you actually SEEN a riot? Have you ever tried to see if the person in the floor length robe is a young teen or an early twenty year old, especially from a distance? Have you ever seen a sniper shooting from within a group of women and kids?

I have.So in your lexicon any Arab with a rifle is a sniper, but anyone in the IDF with a rifle is a soldier with a rifle. The latter, at least, is a reasonable use of English. I suspect, given the rules of engagement and the interviews with IDF personnel, that most of the 500 dead Palestinian children were shot by real proper honest-to-goodness trained camouflaged snipers with rifles to match. http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news ... impso.html http://www.phrusa.org/research/forensic ... rce_2.html and particularly http://www.afsc.org/pwork/0410/041008.htm discuss the background at a case level.

"So in your lexicon any Arab with a rifle is a sniper, but anyone in the IDF with a rifle is a soldier with a rifle." asks spot .

When there’s a riot taking place and there’s a man with a rifle amongst the rioters then yes, he’s either a sniper or at the very least an armed participant and therefore in either case a legitimate target.

Same with a youth throwing a dark roughly spherical object. Is it a stone –or is it a grenade. Even if ‘just’ a stone it could and in the past has, proved fatal if it hits a man in the face. At the very least it can cause injury. Furthermore is he a young teen or a young twenty. Very often impossible to say at a distance of over 25 metres especially when there’s a riot taking place.

So what do you do? Wait for the explosion or check his ID papers to find out his age – by which time you or your comrades may well be dead or maimed – or shoot. For me it’s a non-decision. Shoot.

And yes, anyone who is the IDF with a rifle is an armed member of the Israeli Defence Force.

Where’s the difficulty in that?

But that said, there’s no way that it’s possible to prevent the odd lunatic or even a man who’s simply lost the plot as a result of all that he’s been through going berserk.

It happens in all wars.

In the same way there’s no way to prevent a palest with a gun for once doing the right thing and NOT shooting at our civilians no matter how ell trained he has been, or a homicide bomber having thoughts about the value of humanity and changing his or her mind at the last minute. That alos happens.

The issue is what is the policy of the commanders. Thereby lies the problem.

Having tranched through the items that you pointed to there was one sentence amongst the dross that cracked me up.

It’s a gem. Here it is ---

“based on the high number of documented injuries to the head and thighs, soldiers appear to be shooting to inflict harm, rather than solely in self-defense.”

What an utterly and staggeringly stupid observation to make!

Why on earth should a soldier NOT shoot to inflict harm? That’s the whole point of shooting at someone! The intent IS to inflict harm!

As for self defence, shooting someone who is a threat IS self defence!

But all that apart – the solution is very simple. Remove the need for people to e shot. Simply have the palests stop attacking us and accept our right to exist as a nation and the hostilities will rapidly come to an end. The ball is in the court of the aggressor. The arabs started the fighting – they must cease fighting. That is the way things work.

The election of hammas however indicates that day will be a long time coming. How sad. They are victims of their own actions. So be it.

golem wrote: Having tranched through the items that you pointed to there was one sentence amongst the dross that cracked me upThe dross? The sites are the Physicians for Human Rights, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories and the American Friends Service Committee ("Quaker Values In Action"), two of which organizations have shared Nobel Peace Prizes.

As an aside, since you've done it more than once, in what sense are you using "tranched"? I've used "tranche" in the sense of "slice" as a noun especially applied to shareholdings, but I've never seen it used as a synonym for the act of browsing anywhere else. Is this a new usage?

spot wrote: The dross? The sites are the Physicians for Human Rights, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories and the American Friends Service Committee ("Quaker Values In Action"), two of which organizations have shared Nobel Peace Prizes.


Proves nothing. The loathsome arafat was awarded the Nobel peace prize for Oslo, something that he turned hsi back on the moment he got back to his cronies.

spot wrote: As an aside, since you've done it more than once, in what sense are you using "tranched"? I've used "tranche" in the sense of "slice" as a noun especially applied to shareholdings, but I've never seen it used as a synonym for the act of browsing anywhere else. Is this a new usage?


Not really. It's been used in such a form in academia for a good twenty years to my certain knowledge. Maybe that's why you've not met it before?

golem wrote: Not really. It's been used in such a form in academia for a good twenty years to my certain knowledge. Maybe that's why you've not met it before?I wonder whether you'd be kind enough to show me an instance?

spot wrote: I wonder whether you'd be kind enough to show me an instance?


After the insulting remarks that you have aimed in the direction of me and my nation?

No. Go look for yourself.

golem wrote: No. Go look for yourself.Hoity-toity.

(An exclamation expressing surprise with some degree of contempt, esp. at words or actions considered to show flightiness or undue assumption)

I did, of course. Neither Merriam-Webster nor the more up-to-date OED with its supplements carry the usage. Perhaps it's merely very obscure, even after "a good twenty years". A Lexis-Nexis search of news sources for "tranche w/3 internet" and "tranche w/3 browse" hits 104 articles, all related to share-dealing. Just to be sure, "tranching and not (securit! or equity or loan or steak or turbot or gold or funds or construction)" brings me down to two articles, both in Italian.

That's not the first time you've suggested I look unaided for something whose existence I've doubted.

As far as your sneering "It's been used in such a form in academia for a good twenty years to my certain knowledge. Maybe that's why you've not met it before?" goes, I note that the only permanent payrolls I've been on since the 1970s have been British universities.

spot wrote: Hoity-toity.

As far as your sneering "It's been used in such a form in academia for a good twenty years to my certain knowledge. Maybe that's why you've not met it before?" goes, I note that the only permanent payrolls I've been on since the 1970s have been British universities.


Why am I not surprised. :wah:

golem wrote: Why am I not surprised. :wah:That must be one of those win-win questions I keep hearing about.