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I was wondering, why is it that in Britain and other European countries Christianity is being shunned and religion sidelined whereas in the 'States Christianity is becoming a real force, even influencing party politics? Even though Tony Blair is a Christian, if he used this as an election tool or made refrerence to his religion even infrequently I think this would actually put off the electorate.

Here in the UK you will rarely find a church that is even half full on a Sunday (and most of the congregagtion will be elderly) but from what I understand in the US things are quite different. Why is this?

Katy

I suppose my question was maybe WHY it was more secular and WHY when in this country Christianity is dwindling, in the US it is gaining more and more momentum.

Katy, The United States is huge. There are areas of the country that are very religiously inclined, and other areas that are not. I am originally from New York where people never referred to their faith. They simply live it as they breathe. Ten years ago I came down to Virginia. Life here is centered around religion, mostly Protestant denominations. Two years ago, I went to live on the southeast coast of Georgia. Mostly Baptist, and if you dont practice some kind of religion you are pretty much an outcast. My opinion is that the world has experienced serious moral decline, our youth is in trouble, drugs are rampant, and people are frightened to death of the possibilitie of terrorist action. Everyone has had to face the very real reality of mortality. And so politicians have given liscence to citizens to know they are christian as a tool to make them feel secure.Professing to be "Christian" is no guarantee of sincerity, or morality. And yet there is a huge percentage of the population who will be influenced.

Katy1 wrote: I was wondering, why is it that in Britain and other European countries Christianity is being shunned and religion sidelined whereas in the 'States Christianity is becoming a real force, even influencing party politics? Even though Tony Blair is a Christian, if he used this as an election tool or made refrerence to his religion even infrequently I think this would actually put off the electorate.



Here in the UK you will rarely find a church that is even half full on a Sunday (and most of the congregagtion will be elderly) but from what I understand in the US things are quite different. Why is this?



Katy
because we're better. :yh_shame :yh_flag









.....







:yh_rotfl Sorry. Couldn't keep a straight face long enough. :yh_peace

Har har Accountable:wah:

I suppose it's all a matter of opinion eh?

But it was a serious question.

whereas in the 'States Christianity is becoming a real force, even influencing party politics


Becoming a real force? It's always been. And if anything it's been declining gradually over the past few decades. If you ask me, anyway. Then again I grew up in California, I might have had totally different experiences in other states. But what happens on a national level seems to conform to what I've seen there. Most politicians still claim to be religious, yes, but they don't take it any further than that. They don't go to church except for photo ops, they don't know anything about the Bible, they sure as hell don't follow the ten commandments, and religion plays no real role in their decisions unless it can be used as justification for something they were already going to do anyway.

Let's talk about enlightened Europe in comparison. At the Austrian public school where I work, students are required to attend a religion class taught by a priest. There is a cross above the door of every classroom. Crucifixes are quite prominently displayed on a wall in the dining hall and also on the outside wall of one of the main school buildings. The week before Christmas, there was a Christmas celebration for the whole school which was quite unabashedly called a "Christmas" celebration and not a holiday celebration or a seasonal celebration or anything like that. During the aforementioned celebration, traditional Carinthian religious songs were sung.

None of this would ever fly in the US, not in a million years...

Katy1 wrote: I was wondering, why is it that in Britain and other European countries Christianity is being shunned and religion sidelined whereas in the 'States Christianity is becoming a real force, even influencing party politics? Even though Tony Blair is a Christian, if he used this as an election tool or made refrerence to his religion even infrequently I think this would actually put off the electorate.



Here in the UK you will rarely find a church that is even half full on a Sunday (and most of the congregagtion will be elderly) but from what I understand in the US things are quite different. Why is this?



Katy
It has always been a strong influence here. I believe Jimmy Carter was a Baptist preacher. Barak Obama, Illinois senator and Dems new Golden Boy, regularly professes his faith. The difference you see now is the propensity for politicians & political machines to shamelessly use anything and everthing as political tools, no matter how sacred.

Hi Katy.

I'm interested in your comment about Tony Blair. I do not think he is a Christian. I believe that Cherie has declared herself to be a Catholic, but Tony has not declared his religion. Either way, neither of them behave as Christians. Neither is politics a Christian calling (although you may find that hard to believe if you study the history of the Christian Churches).

ArnoldLayne wrote: The UK is much more of a secular country than the US. Our churches have ALWAYS been half full. They were 40 odd years ago when I went as a kid


You have never watched the Sunday service on TV then Arnold.

Blackjack wrote: Becoming a real force? It's always been. And if anything it's been declining gradually over the past few decades. If you ask me, anyway. Then again I grew up in California, I might have had totally different experiences in other states. But what happens on a national level seems to conform to what I've seen there. Most politicians still claim to be religious, yes, but they don't take it any further than that. They don't go to church except for photo ops, they don't know anything about the Bible, they sure as hell don't follow the ten commandments, and religion plays no real role in their decisions unless it can be used as justification for something they were already going to do anyway.



Let's talk about enlightened Europe in comparison. At the Austrian public school where I work, students are required to attend a religion class taught by a priest. There is a cross above the door of every classroom. Crucifixes are quite prominently displayed on a wall in the dining hall and also on the outside wall of one of the main school buildings. The week before Christmas, there was a Christmas celebration for the whole school which was quite unabashedly called a "Christmas" celebration and not a holiday celebration or a seasonal celebration or anything like that. During the aforementioned celebration, traditional Carinthian religious songs were sung.



None of this would ever fly in the US, not in a million years...


Be very careful, Blackjack, when criticizing others. Politicians by their very nature are devious and will say whatever they think the electorate wants to hear. However, the majority of the US population cannot be likened to poliicians. They are, if not religious, extremely moral and loving people. They do not need religion to be thrust upon them for they themselves are the lights of their religions.

Katy1 wrote: I was wondering, why is it that in Britain and other European countries Christianity is being shunned and religion sidelined whereas in the 'States Christianity is becoming a real force, even influencing party politics? Even though Tony Blair is a Christian, if he used this as an election tool or made refrerence to his religion even infrequently I think this would actually put off the electorate.



Here in the UK you will rarely find a church that is even half full on a Sunday (and most of the congregagtion will be elderly) but from what I understand in the US things are quite different. Why is this?



Katy


Here, in the UK, we have had Christianity thrusted upon us. The only times that the British concurred with Christianity were those times when the monarch acted as a representative of Christianity, and then, only the Royalists would have been in favour.

As a nation, we have experienced extreme outrages in the name of Christianity, whether done to us, or by us to others in the name of Christianity. This may well be the reason why there is a strong Pagan following in the UK.

On the other hand, the US, as we know it today, with all its racial mixtures handed down through the last couple of centuries, was virtually founded on religion. the English language became the language of America because of the efforts of the Quakers who did well to survive their first winter in America (and have a lot to thank the natives of the day for helping them out). These people actually perfected English which was only born in order to create the St. James's version of the Bible. Before this event, the natives of Britain only had a so-called 'gutter' language made up of a mix of the various languages of the races that conquered her.

Be very careful, Blackjack, when criticizing others. Politicians by their very nature are devious and will say whatever they think the electorate wants to hear. However, the majority of the US population cannot be likened to poliicians. They are, if not religious, extremely moral and loving people. They do not need religion to be thrust upon them for they themselves are the lights of their religions.


I didn't mean any of that as a condemnation or endorsement of one side or the other, I was just stating what my own experience with both has been - much of which has run totally contrary to the common perception that the US is rabidly and rigidly Christian while Europe is radically progressive and cynical towards western religion in comparison.

[QUOTE=Blackjack Let's talk about enlightened Europe in comparison. At the Austrian public school where I work, students are required to attend a religion class taught by a priest. There is a cross above the door of every classroom. Crucifixes are quite prominently displayed on a wall in the dining hall and also on the outside wall of one of the main school buildings. The week before Christmas, there was a Christmas celebration for the whole school which was quite unabashedly called a "Christmas" celebration and not a holiday celebration or a seasonal celebration or anything like that. During the aforementioned celebration, traditional Carinthian religious songs were sung.

None of this would ever fly in the US, not in a million years...


Interesting. With this level of religious indoctrination, do you see its effects in everyday life in Austria? The reason I ask is because a US Department of State global survey states that nearly 80% of Austrians claim to be Roman Catholic. I wondered if those surveyed were practising or nominal Catholics.

Having never been to Austria I have no idea if these figures are an accurate reflection of Austrian society, and religions influence within that society. And as with all statistics, percentages alone often do not reveal the true picture.

Blackjack wrote: I didn't mean any of that as a condemnation or endorsement of one side or the other, I was just stating what my own experience with both has been - much of which has run totally contrary to the common perception that the US is rabidly and rigidly Christian while Europe is radically progressive and cynical towards western religion in comparison.


The outward perception of the US may appear to be Christian. However, it is the home of many religions. America is far more able to accept diversity because of the diverse nature of its origins.

Europe, however, is deeply rooted in religious turmoil. It has grown stale with the citizens because too many people have died in the name of religion. Too many wars have been fought in the name of religion. As the European populace has become more intelligent through education, so it has seen through the European religious history as nothing more than a political scam.

Europeans are now looking for something with real meaning. Religious discussion is more common and fights do not necessarily occur because of differences of opinion. Rather, it seems that individuals are taking what makes sense from the various different religions and forming a cosmopolitan religion. This, in turn, is making it possible for people of different faiths, race, and class to mix and form friendships without fear of proselytisation. A new religion is forming on the sidelines while the main religions continue to fragment.

memebias wrote: Interesting. With this level of religious indoctrination, do you see its effects in everyday life in Austria? The reason I ask is because a US Department of State global survey states that nearly 80% of Austrians claim to be Roman Catholic. I wondered if those surveyed were practising or nominal Catholics.
From what I've seen, most Austrians will indeed tell you that they're Catholic if you ask but they don't really know much about their own religion and are afraid to take it too seriously. Those who really believe and practice vigorously are relatively few, most seem to just go through the motions of being Catholic when it's expected of them. So I'd say that the indoctrination has been unsuccessful for the most part.

Blackjack wrote: From what I've seen, most Austrians will indeed tell you that they're Catholic if you ask but they don't really know much about their own religion and are afraid to take it too seriously. Those who really believe and practice vigorously are relatively few, most seem to just go through the motions of being Catholic when it's expected of them. So I'd say that the indoctrination has been unsuccessful for the most part.


I do not know Austria's history particularly well. But I know the country has suffered through the centuries for one reason or another because of outside influences.

Blackjack wrote: From what I've seen, most Austrians will indeed tell you that they're Catholic if you ask but they don't really know much about their own religion and are afraid to take it too seriously. Those who really believe and practice vigorously are relatively few, most seem to just go through the motions of being Catholic when it's expected of them. So I'd say that the indoctrination has been unsuccessful for the most part.


Thank you for your reply. One point, what exactly are they afraid of? If their religion is a requirement in public schools, it cannot be fear of a secular government with an anti-theist agenda, the government is willing to fund religious education with taxpayers money.

I could understand their fear if they were a small minority, but I can't understand it in this instance, in a country where they are an overwhelming majority. Have you any idea where this fear stems from?

BTW. Happily, the state funded indoctrination in Austria seems as ineffective as that in the UK.

OpenMind wrote: I do not know Austria's history particularly well. But I know the country has suffered through the centuries for one reason or another because of outside influences.
I'm sure that's part of the reason why Catholicism is still so important in Austria even though most Austrians are unwilling to embrace it wholeheartedly. During difficult times, their shared Catholic faith gave the Austrians something to rally around, especially when they were the bulwark for the rest of Europe against eastern barbarians and Turkish muslims. There's a castle here in Carinthia called Burghochosterwitz that was unsuccessfuly besieged over and over again by the Turks, as was Vienna several times. Perhaps to totally turn their backs on Catholicism would mean dissociating themselves from their victories as a people as well.

memebias wrote:

I could understand their fear if they were a small minority, but I can't understand it in this instance, in a country where they are an overwhelming majority. Have you any idea where this fear stems from?
I don't have a really good answer for that. I've wondered about that myself. I think it has a lot to do with materialism; people have reservations about a religion that teaches not to pursue worldly riches when the rest of the world outside of church (and those religion classes) has taught them that success is measured in money and property. Also, as important as tradition may be here, it's apparently still possible to be too traditional. People who are very religious are admired by some but considered by others to be oddballs not living in modern times. Austrians can be very sensitive about this since other Europeans, Germans in particular, often stereotype them as backwards and superstitious.

From reading your posts, Blackjack, I don't get the impression of fear or even zealous indoctrination in Austria. I suspect that the religious icons have been in place for a very long time and that everything is done simply because this is how it has been done for so long.

As for seeing the apparent merits of having money and chattels, this probably just adds another log to the fire burning in the Austrian soul. It seems to me that, like most of the western world, science makes more sense than religion. What is being lost, however, is morale.

Religion is important for creating public morale. Many people in the West are now exploring alternative paths and faiths. For many, this is simply because they need something to lean against but no longer trust Christianity to provide this support.

And since when did Austria represent a cross section of Europe in general?

I do agree that people tend to be religious for something to lean on, it is a convenient way of explaining lifes problems and questions, it is also dangerous because it gives a small group of religious leaders a worrying amount of control over a lot of people.

I would say that the problematic issue in America is the rise of evangelical Christianity. I am amazed by the amount of people taken in by this, not only do they believe what these nutters tell them, they also line their pockets. To me that is either stupidity or desperation, whichever way you look at it, it's not right.

And anyway, we're meant to be talking about religion in the US & the UK.

I still feel that Britain is quite different to Europe.

Hi there, I haven't had a chance to read all of the replies yet but I've noticed the glaring error in my first post, it meant to read SOME 'other European countries'. I know that countries like Italy and Spain are particularly religious amongst others although the area immediately surrounding the UK tend not to be and it was those to which I was referring really.

Maybe I should have just stuck with 'in the UK' in hindsight....:-3

Still, it remains something that has always interested me.

Blackjack wrote: I think it has a lot to do with materialism; people have reservations about a religion that teaches not to pursue worldly riches when the rest of the world outside of church (and those religion classes) has taught them that success is measured in money and property.


Personally, I'd have reservations about any religion that cautions believers on the perils of worldly riches but held material assets at the levels of the two main branches of Christianity in Western civilisation!

Katy1 wrote: I was wondering, why is it that in Britain [...] Christianity is being shunned and religion sidelined whereas in the 'States Christianity is becoming a real force, even influencing party politics? Even though Tony Blair is a Christian, if he used this as an election tool or made refrerence to his religion even infrequently I think this would actually put off the electorate.



Here in the UK you will rarely find a church that is even half full on a Sunday (and most of the congregagtion will be elderly) but from what I understand in the US things are quite different. Why is this?



Katy
The US has religious freedom as a cornerstone of its very existence. Being a particular point of pride, it's understandable that it would be more important culturally.



How has religion played a role in British culture? Maybe that's the difference?

Accountable wrote: The US has religious freedom as a cornerstone of its very existence. Being a particular point of pride, it's understandable that it would be more important culturally.



How has religion played a role in British culture? Maybe that's the difference?




Historically religion has shaped the UK and made it what it is today, it was always a very god fearing nation. My Mum went to church on Sunday's in her best, schools sang hymns and read prayers daily. It was more a question of what denomination you were, rather than 'are you religious?'

Perhaps it's more that people here do not feel the need to actually go to church but still think of themsleves as 'believers'. But then again, why is that? The churches are still there...

I suppose it comes down to something said very early on , that the USA is huge...although an obvious comment, I guess it's a very complex question because there must be areas of the US that aren't particularly religious and other areas (the Bible belt for example) where it is pretty much mandatory to have faith. Maybe one needs to decompartmentalise to such an extent that the question becomes over complicated. Hmmm.

Katy1 wrote: Historically religion has shaped the UK and made it what it is today, it was always a very god fearing nation. My Mum went to church on Sunday's in her best, schools sang hymns and read prayers daily. It was more a question of what denomination you were, rather than 'are you religious?'



Perhaps it's more that people here do not feel the need to actually go to church but still think of themsleves as 'believers'. But then again, why is that? The churches are still there...



I suppose it comes down to something said very early on , that the USA is huge...although an obvious comment, I guess it's a very complex question because there must be areas of the US that aren't particularly religious and other areas (the Bible belt for example) where it is pretty much mandatory to have faith. Maybe one needs to decompartmentalise to such an extent that the question becomes over complicated. Hmmm.
Makes sense. I'm sure there are still pockets of very religious areas in England as well.

Accountable wrote: Makes sense. I'm sure there are still pockets of very religious areas in England as well.


I don't think there are Accountable, well not of Christian faith anyway. That was why I posed the question really. We do have cities like Birmingham and Bradford that have a high Muslim pouplation but that's due to immigration. Among the 'native' English I really cannot think of anywhere that would be considered as a Christian region. I may stand corrected but I'm pretty sure there isn't.

Northern Ireland is a different story but therein lies a very complex tale.....

Accountable wrote: Makes sense. I'm sure there are still pockets of very religious areas in England as well.


Hmm... If we are talking about Christianity, I can't think of any off the top of my head. Although inner city areas tend to have pockets of non-Christian beliefs which could possibly come under the umbrella of "very religious".

Katy1 wrote: I was wondering, why is it that in Britain and other European countries Christianity is being shunned and religion sidelined whereas in the 'States Christianity is becoming a real force, even influencing party politics? Even though Tony Blair is a Christian, if he used this as an election tool or made refrerence to his religion even infrequently I think this would actually put off the electorate.



Here in the UK you will rarely find a church that is even half full on a Sunday (and most of the congregagtion will be elderly) but from what I understand in the US things are quite different. Why is this?



Katy


I have never been to a church that has been more than half full except for funerals, weddings and possibly at Christmas.

The decline in church attendance is down to lifestyle IMO. People are out and about shopping, enjoying themselves on Sundays. Arnold bought back some memories for me with Sunday Roast, 12" TV etc...those were the days Arnold...with the sounds of cricket commentary coming out of the old valve radio when summers seemed to go on forever..

People are a lot more informed nowadays about other religions and are not inclined to follow the family tradition of going to church. Christianity is not taught in most schools and in truth, 'the church' has not moved with the times and appears old fashioned and stuffy to this generation.

I have no real answers. My sister has lived in the US since 1967 and relies heavily on her faith, but from what she has told me, there is more 'community' amongst her fellow worshippers and they have social events etc. My sisters Church have a fund for ex-pats that want to visit relatives in the UK and can't afford it.

Katy1 wrote: Maybe I should have just stuck with 'in the UK' in hindsight....:-3


Sorry, then...

But the main reason I brought up Austria was so I could then point out that none of those things would ever be permitted in public schools in the US. Not nowadays, at least. Which I think is a sign that Christianity has lost a lot of momentum rather than gaining more and more.

weeder wrote: Katy, The United States is huge. There are areas of the country that are very religiously inclined, and other areas that are not. I am originally from New York where people never referred to their faith. They simply live it as they breathe. Ten years ago I came down to Virginia. Life here is centered around religion, mostly Protestant denominations. Two years ago, I went to live on the southeast coast of Georgia. Mostly Baptist, and if you dont practice some kind of religion you are pretty much an outcast. My opinion is that the world has experienced serious moral decline, our youth is in trouble, drugs are rampant, and people are frightened to death of the possibilitie of terrorist action. Everyone has had to face the very real reality of mortality. And so politicians have given liscence to citizens to know they are christian as a tool to make them feel secure.Professing to be "Christian" is no guarantee of sincerity, or morality. And yet there is a huge percentage of the population who will be influenced.In contrast to our recent exchanges on another thread, here I agree with weeder wholehearedly. Very well stated, w.

Blackjack wrote: Sorry, then...

But the main reason I brought up Austria was so I could then point out that none of those things would ever be permitted in public schools in the US. Not nowadays, at least. Which I think is a sign that Christianity has lost a lot of momentum rather than gaining more and more.


No need to be sorry Blackjack:) my fault for not wording it correctly.

Good point though. It does seem a bit of a contradiction.

One of the reasons that I asked the question was because I came accross an interesting statistic recently that said that at least 42% of US citizen believe that the world was created about 10,000 yrs ago, which would mean that at least 42% of US citizens are religious to the extent of denying scientific evidence which to my mind would make them deeply religious. That statistic doesn't include the other Christian faiths that do not believe it was created then, but nevertheless have deep rooted beliefs. That statistic would not be reflected in the UK if a poll was taken. I would doubt that the percentage would even make double figures.

As I said I think that if Tony Blair started declaring that he was doing things 'in the name of god' it wouldn't wash with the electorate one bit. TBH I think that the british public might view him as mentally unstable. I think people would wonder how he could judge what god wanted. But as Bush has been (fairly?) elected (yes, different thread I know ) the there must be a large chunk of people who either agree with him or don't mind him making these statements.

Katy1 wrote: One of the reasons that I asked the question was because I came accross an interesting statistic recently that said that at least 42% of US citizen believe that the world was created about 10,000 yrs ago, which would mean that at least 42% of US citizens are religious to the extent of denying scientific evidence which to my mind would make them deeply religious.
I find it hard to believe that at least 42% of Americans had actually made up their minds about how old the earth is, to be honest.

I'm not big on polls myself, I don't form any of my opinions based on them, I know how open they are to manipulation and that they can be inaccurate even if nobody's trying to prove anything in particular through them. And even if they are accurate, they still don't tell the whole story.

I wish I could remember who commissioned the survey. Do you have a census over there in the US like over here? It wasn't particularly asking each individual how old they thought the earth was, it was asking them which denomination they were and 42% said that they were of the Evangelical faith who believe the world was created that amount of time ago. It wasn't trying to prove anything as far as I remember.

But, I can appreciate your mistrust in polls. Apparently 50% of statistics are wrong anyway;)

Actually, 42% Protestant sounds about right to me - though like with those 80% of Austrians who are Catholic that doesn't necessarily say anything about how strongly they adhere to the religion they identify with. And I'm guessing that Protestants would have accounted for well over half of Americans 50 years ago though I don't have any figures to back that up right on hand.

Katy1 wrote: I wish I could remember who commissioned the survey.


I think you may be referring to a survey by the Gallup organisation in 1997. The question was:

"God created man pretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years."

Agree - 44%

Incidentally, as a footnote to my last post, I've heard this figure bandied about on other message boards by both sides of the atheist/theist divide. Theists use it to 'prove' the truth revealed in the bible, atheists use it to 'prove' the lack of scientific knowledge contained in the bible.

The Bible is purely a religious book. It is not a science or a history book and was never meant to be taken that way.



Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted wrote: The Bible is purely a religious book. It is not a science or a history book and was never meant to be taken that way.



Shalom

Ted:-6


And I'm sure you hold that opinion sincerely Ted. However, I am also quite sure that some Christians hold an entirely different opinion on this matter and would just as sincerely say you were wrong.

memebias wrote: And I'm sure you hold that opinion sincerely Ted. However, I am also quite sure that some Christians hold an entirely different opinion on this matter and would just as sincerely say you were wrong.
:wah: If you took out all Ted's posts on this subject alone, I'm afraid he'd still be a junior member.

You got something against junior members, punk? :p

Blackjack wrote: You got something against junior members, punk? :p
Come back in 9 posts, junior.

posted by openmind

Here, in the UK, we have had Christianity thrusted upon us. The only times that the British concurred with Christianity were those times when the monarch acted as a representative of Christianity, and then, only the Royalists would have been in favour.

As a nation, we have experienced extreme outrages in the name of Christianity, whether done to us, or by us to others in the name of Christianity. This may well be the reason why there is a strong Pagan following in the UK.

On the other hand, the US, as we know it today, with all its racial mixtures handed down through the last couple of centuries, was virtually founded on religion. the English language became the language of America because of the efforts of the Quakers who did well to survive their first winter in America (and have a lot to thank the natives of the day for helping them out). These people actually perfected English which was only born in order to create the St. James's version of the Bible. Before this event, the natives of Britain only had a so-called 'gutter' language made up of a mix of the various languages of the races that conquered her.


So English was born so that a bible could be written at the behest of a king from scotland who was hardly a native speaker in the first place. Oh please.

How a dialect from an obscure part of Europe could almost the de facto world languge is a fascinating study in itself. It's hardly a simple process.

http://www.askoxford.com/worldofwords/history/?view=uk

If you think the UK ended up christian simply at the behest of rulers you rather underestimate the temper of the British people down through the ages and they part they played in shaping not only our country but those around them.

have a look at the history of the English Civil war and the kinds of arguements they were having at the time. They have their echo in the United States constitution and the division of church and state, and in the debates around who should be allowed to vote. Some of the worst atrocitoies in history were commited in the name of religon. A republic, rule by relgious extremists, a military dictatorship we've had it all.

For centuries europe was ravaged by savage religious/political wars and after ww1 and ww2 you could make a good case that certitude in religon and politics is viewed with deep suspicion throughout europe. . WW1 taught us not to follow kings blindly ww2 did the same with politicians and blind patriotism.

What americans view as our lack of nationalism, because we are not so overtly flag waving partriotic as they, is as a result of seeing where miltarism and blind patriotism can lead. My country right or wrong just doesn't work.

There is not a strong pagan following in Britain, what there is is a secular society with a deep cynicism abouit politics and religon, a willingness to tolerate others up until they start trying to tell everybody how to lead their lives. Religious leaders have little impact because people are willing to make up their own minds and don't need to follow a leader.

You might find this of interest.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/content/ar ... DF/871.pdf

It's thought provoking if nothing else.

posted by open mind



I do not know Austria's history particularly well. But I know the country has suffered through the centuries for one reason or another because of outside influences.


They were hardly innocent victims. ww1 started when the heir to the austro-hungarian imperial throne was assassinated in sarajevo.

http://fp.miranda.f9.co.uk/ww1/outbreak.html



Heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, Archduke Franz Ferdinand favoured the reorganisation of Austria-Hungary to create a third kingdom of Croatia. After the Austrian annexation of Bosnia and Hercegovina in 1908, Archduke Franz Ferdinand was assassinated. Serbian nationalist Gavrilo Princip shot, Ferdinand and his wife in the Bosnian town of Sarajevo on June 28, 1914.

Territorial Unrest

On July 23 the enraged Austrian government submitted an ultimatum to Serbia demanding punishment for the nationalists and further concessions. Serbia accepted most of the demands on July 25, but Austria declared that the Serbian reply was unsatisfactory. The Russians then attempted to persuade Austria to change the terms of the ultimatum, declaring that if Austria marched on Serbia, Russia would mobilise their huge, but inefficient, army against Austria.


America very sensibly didn't want to get involved.

posted by katy1

I suppose my question was maybe WHY it was more secular and WHY when in this country Christianity is dwindling, in the US it is gaining more and more momentum.


I would suggest a number of possible reasons.

Our experience of the consequences of total war is something that america has never faced. The american people did not face the same kind of destruction and civilian deaths that the UK, europe China and Japan suffered. Following blindly either religious leaders or political ones wont work. To have faith you must believe blindly, to follow a religon you must accept the tenets of that faith. The relevance is that one of the reasons I think we are more secular is that we are less ready to believe what leaders tell us and can make up our own minds. To follow a religon you give up your right to question and should just accept what you are told as the truth. People see religon for what it is and refuse to follow blindly. We don't need religon to tell us right from wrong. Religon is associated with bigotry and hatred and narrow mindedness.

I suspect if you asked do you believe in god you might get an overwhelming don't know.

As again do you believe in religon most would I think say no.

We are a great deal more widely travelled. It is rare nowadays to meet someone in westerneurope that has not been to a foreign country. Many are now visiting eastern europe and more and more eastern europeans are visiting here. Our experience of other cultures takes away the otherness.



What is worrying about america is that a small group who believe in the literal word of the bible, and in some cases that the end of times as foretold in the bible is nigh seem to have an influence beyond their actual numbers and are out to force their views on everybody, be it creationism instead of evolution. Forget sex`education, tell teenagers not to because it is sunful.

Rather than worrying about the demise of christianity why not worry about its growth in America. worry those who believe in the literal interpretation of the bible. That the state of Israel must be preserved because it says so in the bible (try pointing out who wrote it and see how far you get). That the end of days is due. Quite simply how can anyone in this day and age believe in such a medeival view of the world to the extent that they try and shut up those who disagree and try and censor films, books, tv shows becaue they don't approve of them.

Most of all worry that we are being drawn in to a medeival religious conflict because no one likes to say openly in America that religon is a load of rubbish and people should be left to believe as they choose and live as they please in case they offend the religious right.

posted by memebias

And I'm sure you hold that opinion sincerely Ted. However, I am also quite sure that some Christians hold an entirely different opinion on this matter and would just as sincerely say you were wrong.


I would also quite sure that some fundamentalist christians would like to see individuals like Ted and myself burned at the stake as a heretic, while they stood around praying for our immortal souls completely missing the irony of the similarity to pagan human sacfifice.

Was going to post one about christian fundamentalist but thought this just as funny.

http://www.tektonics.org/parody/fundyath.html



# Origins

You may be a fundy atheist if....

# You believe that planes, computers, calculators, compasses, etc, were "all obviously designed," yet the human body, being intricately more complex was "obviously a product of biological evolution." It seems the more complex the apparatus, the more obvious the "fact" that it was not designed.

# You claim that evolution and the big bang are two entirely separate theories that explain different aspects of the universe, yet, in what school of learning can you find any real separation or distinction between the two?

# As a member of the Skeptic's Society you pride yourself on being skeptical of extraordinary claims. You also pride yourself on silencing everyone who is skeptical of the extraordinary claims of evolution.

# Isaac Newton does not count as an example of a great scientist who believed in the Bible since he died before the Origin of Species was published.




:yh_rotfl

So English was born so that a bible could be written at the behest of a king from scotland who was hardly a native speaker in the first place. Oh please.





I would also quite sure that some fundamentalist christians would like to see individuals like Ted and myself burned at the stake as a heretic, while they stood around praying for our immortal souls completely missing the irony of the similarity to pagan human sacfifice.


Excellent post.

Was going to post one about christian fundamentalist but thought this just as funny.


The fundamentalist Atheist page is the only thing on the Tektonics site worth reading. The owner of this site is one of the worst examples of a fundamentalist christian apologist I have found.

i am no great expert and i have read some posts with great interest. Someone mentioned European Christianity in regard to the historical turmoil and much of this must be regarded as political (as all religion is). This was largely settled in Europe quite some time ago. America as a nation is still divided on the basis of Christianity (and originally attracted some of the most hardline seperatists) hence the temptation to compete and escalate differences and achieve the higher (Christian) moral ground,it's a badge, a club, a battle within a country where shooting and repression need must take other forms than the similar European Christian/Political struggle a century before.