Where did chinese come from?

[China_Watcher]

I presume that on the northernmost japan (aomori, akita, etc), people's face can have many features like ainu, jomon, minatogawa, but no chinese like facial structures could expected, because of the genetic distributions of YAP+ and DE-YAP and some mtDNA markers.



The results show the average face of east asian (and some other related)population.

Please notice that N/S japanese faces are slightly different from N/S chinese. I think this is due to the ainu/jomon population and/or mixtures with natives and continentals.

Northern chinese are completely independent of modern japanese facial structures. Southern chinese are somewhat related, so the southern chinese tribes may have immigrated to japan through korea 2kya, which now comprises the 60% of total japanese population.

Please note the ainu/jomon (native japanese islanders) which should represent roughly 40% or less of total japanese population (by the results of genetic analysis) are really far apart from the N/S chinese.

[China_Watcher]

Let's make a comparison between say Japanese, and Chinese.

We are essentially interested in the unique population in Japan who is known

to be unrelated to Chinese.

What follows below is the study on phenotype of Japanese in contrast to chinese.

As I showed above, the population of japanese can be subset into:

(1) people from china/korea 2kya and settled in the islands. These people comprise almost 60-70% of total japanese population

(2) people migrated to island 15kya. Ainu/Jomon/Ryukyuan is the respective name we use for this population. These people comprise the 30-40% of total japanese population.

These are actually confirmed by the genetic study I posted earlier.

----------------------------------

So what does Ainu and Northern Japanese really look like?



Superficially, we have to consider the representative of the population rather than averaging out. I think the person from the noble family seems to be the most suitable sample for dissecting the phenotype of northern japanese.



Mutsu Munemitsu, A minister of Foreign Affair





He is nothern japanese. From a noblest family in northern japan.

His family tree is from Hiraizumi clan (Emishi related to Ainu).

His ancestor includes some figures like Date Masamune, and the origin of family dates back 1000 years ago,



The same japanese person



He made an alliance with Great Britain, and ask the peace treaty with Russia for Roosevelt, then president of United States

[China_Watcher]

Now, having said the nothern japanese (northern can be replaced by northernmost). I would like to mention about the southernmost japanese.

They are known to be related to Ryukyuan/Okinawan, and their phenotypes seem to be fairly ainu, but they seem to be mixed with continentals, so they show more varieties. Prime Minister Koizumi's family comes from the noble family in Kagoshima-ken, and he belongs to this class of people.



Togo Heihachiro, An admiral, A national hero in Japan-Russo War (no involvement in WWII)





Southernmost Japanese. His ancestor was a neighbor of koizumi's.



Togo Heihachiro in his 58 years old

[China_Watcher]

Komura Jutaro, Minister of Foreign Affair, Harvard Graduate





Akiyama Saneyuki, Hero in Japan-Russo, he retired immediately after the war, and commited suicide





Akiyama Yoshifuru





Last two people are not having any record of being jomon. They are southern japanese. I posted this because their phenotype is somewhere between japanese and chinese/korean. Very interesting



The first pic of komura can be representative of any japanese (he looks both chinese and japanese).

[China_Watcher]

Group of Ainu (Japanese) people, 1904 photograph, taken in Hokkaido Japan (Northenmost Japan)



From Wikipedia, Ainu People

Due to intermarriage with the Japanese and ongoing absorption into the predominant culture, few living Ainu settlements exist. Many "authentic Ainu villages" advertised in Hokkaido are simply tourist attractions.



So if you search Ainu over web, you will not find the real pure Ainu's picture.

[China_Watcher]

Let's now look at KOREAN population who is thought be most related to modern central japanese. Their phenotype is known to be closest to Mongolian (South Sibelia).



Average (not necessarily typical) Korean face





http://www.andongkim.com/articles/20...koreanface.htm



Korean scientists allegedly produced what they call, "the average Korean face". The Korean Institute of Science and Technology information (KISTI) working together with the Catholic Institute for Applied Anatomy made computer tomographic scans of Koreans last year and with the aid of a supercomputer produced a "digital Korean" -- a 3-D video of the average Korean's physical structure.



Do you see much differences from the northen japanese(Ainu,Jomon, Ryukyuan)?

[China_Watcher]

Now, Let's look at northern han CHINESE face.



http://www.angle.org/anglonline/?req...e=05&page=0393



Perception of Facial Esthetics by Native Chinese Participants by Using Manipulated Digital Imagery Techniques

Sample population



The Chinese rater group consisted of 85 native Chinese participants from Beijing. Of these raters, 38 were women, and 47 were men (45% women and 55% men). Their mean age was 26.3 ± 5.3 years.



Manipulated digital imagery technique



An adult native Chinese male and female stimulus face (A) was selected for digital distortion (Figures 1 and 2 ). Both subjects were 24 years old and were chosen because they exhibited Class I occlusions with average dental proclination and balanced lower facial skeletal proportions previously established as norms for this population. They were meant to be representative of the average facial profile for this ethnic group. Because the Chinese have a shorter than average anterior cranial base and a dental proclination greater than Caucasian norms, their “normal” profile would be classified, by Caucasian standards, as bimaxillary protrusive.29,30 This profile was selected as representative of the “normal” Chinese participant.





FIGURE 1. The “normal” Chinese male stimulus face (A) with a balance of dental and skeletal proportions





FIGURE 2. The “normal” Chinese female stimulus face (A) with a balance of dental and skeletal proportions



Now the pics from Japan, Left is Yayoi (korean/chinese) and Right

seems to be Jomon (Native islanders)





Can you see the similarity of Yayoi Japanese to Chinese on the above figure? But do you think they can be like northern japanese?

[China_Watcher]

Earlier, I made a rough assumption that:



60-70% of japanese are from china/korea.

30-40% of japanese are from the north of sibelia.



which is confirmed by the results in genetic analysis.



Now I will complete my posts by quoting the japanese people who are born in the country which is one of the closest to Korean Peninsula. Choshu.



Japanese Modernization actually comes from the union of Choshu (Yamaguchi-ken, Korea or Continental) and Satsuma (Kagoshima-ken, Native islanders such as Ainu, Ryukyuan, Jomon) Clan. It may be possible to compare the two? I think it is a nice idea to see the immediate differences with the earlier posted picture capturing only native islanders.

Beaware that this distinction is a complicated result of geographical historical, and genetic analysis of the two regions.



Let's now look at the central japanese people (Yayoi aka Korean/Chinese).



Ito Hirobumi, the first prime minister of Japan (Yayoi, Korea/China related)





He is a central japanese from Yamaguchi-ken. Geographically, Yamaguchi is one of the closest country to Korea. He could be one of the Korean-origin Japanese.



His obsession with Korea is known by his infamous annexation of Korea.

[China_Watcher]

Another Yayoi (aka Korean/Chinese descent) Japanese



Okuma Shigenobu, The minister of Foreign Affair





He is from Choshu, Yamaguchi. He is a typical central Japanese.

His look is in contrast to those Shimazu-clan and northern japanese noble.

[China_Watcher]

Katsura Taro, Prime Minister, Born in Choshu (Korea/China related)





He is the most tactful politician devising the overthrow of Shogun Regime, and hand the power back to imperial family. He was sent to Germany to learn strategy and tactics.



As with Ito Hirobumi, the first prime minister of Japan, his background is humble, and from not so wealthy background.



Japanese politician up till Koizumi (southernmost japanese)takeover of the government was Choshu-dominant, and most influential politicians are from this area of Japan.

[China_Watcher]

Yamagata Aritomo, Prime Minister of Japan, Born in Choshu (Korean/Chinese-Related)





His background is the low-ranking samurai

[chonsigirl]

You are always welcome to join us in the Pub anytime.

[LilacDragon]

I am sure that this is all very interesting but I am sorry China Watcher, I just can't get into all the long posts about DNA and such. (Could be because it is the crack of dawn on Christmas Morning and the 7 year old is full of open this and open that.)

But - every single time I see this thread title I can't help but think....

"Well, from China, silly."

[China_Watcher]

chonsigirl wrote: You are always welcome to join us in the Pub anytime.


Thanks, I'll join in :driving:

[China_Watcher]

Now Let's assess the REAL Chinese appearance. We'll look at the historical figure again.

Yuan Shikai, Han Chinese General, Republic president, dictator and chinese emperor



Yuan Shikai again

[China_Watcher]

Mao Zedong, Chairman of the Communist Party of China







Sun Yat-sen

[China_Watcher]

Zhou Enlai, Premier of People's Republic of China



Zhang Zueling, Chinese Ruler of Manchuria and Northeast china



Tse-ven Soong, chinese businessman, politician

[China_Watcher]

K'ung Hsiang-hsi, Chinese Banker and Politician



Hu Hanmin, chinese Premier of Kuomintang



Jiang, Qing, Mao Zedong's Third wife

[China_Watcher]

Observe that eyes of chinese are almost all clear double eyelids. Also, their facial structure especially around eyes and eyebrows are almost flat.

Now looking back japanese eyes, they don't have a clear double eyelid, but the facial surfaces between eyes and eyebrows are not flat, more depth in 3 dimension. Protruding eyebrow and sunken eyes.

JAPANESE FACE Ryukyuan/Ainu/Jomon)







CHINESE FACE:









CHINESE: Eyes are generally placed flat to the facial surface with the double eyelids. Also notice that eye and eyebrows are positioned on almost the same level, giving even flater impressions. The epicanthic fold are heavily expressed.



JAPANESE: Eyes are placed deeper inside the skull, giving the sunken eyes with single eyelid, or double eyelids formed along with skull (in chinese face, double eyelids are simply formed with eye folds). Epicanthic folds not highly expressed, but idyosyncrasies of eyes are expressed as the narrowly visible area of the eyes.

[aocitizen]

If the Huaxia were Sino-Tibetan migrants from Yunnan, who were the indigenous people they found in the Huang He valley when they arrived there? I have heard a number of times that the Dongyi were originally there, and that they were related to the Hmong people. If the Huaxia and Dongyi fused together to form the core of the Chinese people, this would explain the linguistic substratum which makes Sinitic languages different from the otherwise similar Tibeto-Burman languages. Is there anything to the theories I have outlined above? I would be interested in hearing other people's points of view.

[gmc]

Where do the Mongolians fit in to all of this? Genghis Khan allegedly had blue or grey eyes, damn vikings get everywhere don't they.

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Voyage around the Erythraean Sea

64. After this region under the very north, the sea outside ending in a land called This, there is a very great inland city called Thinae [i.e. China], from which raw silk and silk yarn and silk cloth are brought on foot through Bactria to Barygaza, and are also exported to Damirica [=Limyrike] by way of the river Ganges. But the land of This is not easy of access; few men come from there, and seldom. The country lies under the Lesser Bear [Ursa Minor], and is said to border on the farthest parts of Pontus and the Caspian Sea, next to which lies Lake Maeotis; all of which empty into the ocean.

65. Every year on the borders of the land of This there comes together a tribe of men with short bodies and broad, flat faces, and by nature peaceable; they are called Besata,, and are almost entirely uncivilized. They come with their wives and children, carrying great packs and plaited baskets of what looks like greengrape-leaves. They meet in a place between their own country and the land of This. There they hold a feast for several days, spreading out the baskets under themselves as mats, and then return to their own places in the interior. And then the natives watching them come into that place and gather up their mats; and they pick out from the braids the fibers which they call petri. They lay the leaves closely together in several layers and make them into balls, which they pierce with the fibers from the mats. And there are three sorts; those made of the largest leaves are called the large-ball malabathrum; those of the smaller, the medium-ball; and those of the smallest, the small-ball. Thus there exist three sorts of malabathrum, and it is brought into India by those who prepare it.

66. The regions beyond these places are either difficult of access because of their excessive winters and great cold, or else cannot be sought out because of some divine influence of the gods.

[aocitizen]

Mongolians are such typical members of the Asian race that it was actually called the Mongoloid race at one point. That's interesting, I didn't know Genghis had green eyes, he must have had Turkish blood. But wait a second, weren't the Turks indisputably yellow people originally from Mongolia (the Mongols, originally Tungusic, entered and drove them west around the time of Christ)? The reason for the Turks' later Caucasian blood is that, when they entered Turkestan, they mixed with the original Burushaski inhabitants; the Burushaski are blonde Dene-Caucasian people who came originally from the Caucasus mountains. They are distantly related to the Circassians. Some of the Rong people in western China had red hair and green eyes, and they undoubtedly had Burushaski blood too. Some say the Zhou came from this people. But the Turks originally lived in what is now Mongolia. The Mongols were a Turkish-Tungus mixture (called by the ancient Chinese "the fish-scale people") who originally lived in Manchuria. The ancestors of the Jurchen came from north of the Amur and drove them into Mongolia. The famous Huns were divergent Turks who probably had a Mongolian admixture.

[aocitizen]

China Watcher, I agree with you that the Huaxia, the original Chinese, must have come from Yunnan first. The Bai people are the closest relatives of the Chinese, and they still live in Yunnan; they have many stories of how the original Chinese used to live near them. The Xia Dynasty was obviously the leaders of the Huaxia people who led them to the Huang He valley from the south. I have heard that the Dongyi people were the people they found living in the valley before them. Chinese is a Sino-Tibetan language; but it contains a large substrate of Austric words which sets it apart from Tibeto-Burman. I have heard that the Dongyi were related to the Hmong. Do you think that the fusion of the Huaxia and Dongyi into one people could explain the Austric substrate in Chinese?

[gmc]

aocitizen;1351353 wrote: Mongolians are such typical members of the Asian race that it was actually called the Mongoloid race at one point. That's interesting, I didn't know Genghis had green eyes, he must have had Turkish blood. But wait a second, weren't the Turks indisputably yellow people originally from Mongolia (the Mongols, originally Tungusic, entered and drove them west around the time of Christ)? The reason for the Turks' later Caucasian blood is that, when they entered Turkestan, they mixed with the original Burushaski inhabitants; the Burushaski are blonde Dene-Caucasian people who came originally from the Caucasus mountains. They are distantly related to the Circassians. Some of the Rong people in western China had red hair and green eyes, and they undoubtedly had Burushaski blood too. Some say the Zhou came from this people. But the Turks originally lived in what is now Mongolia. The Mongols were a Turkish-Tungus mixture (called by the ancient Chinese "the fish-scale people") who originally lived in Manchuria. The ancestors of the Jurchen came from north of the Amur and drove them into Mongolia. The famous Huns were divergent Turks who probably had a Mongolian admixture.


There are several references to them and grey eyes are quite striking in a non white face. I know someone from Pakistan that has bright blue eyes and it's his most striking feature, so far as he knows he has no european ancestors. It's quite common there and also in north africa thanks to all the european slaves, the vikings in particular sold a lot of slaves in to the meditarranean and there were slave raids in europe by corsairs until the 17th century. Blonde hair and blue eyes still catch attention even now.

People must have intermingled a lot more than we sometimes think they did. The rus were a north european tribe that gave their name to modern russia the classical greeks were described as being fair haired and there was a good going slave trade so it's hard not to see why they wouldn't have all intermingled. The turks, as you say, also seemed to have come out of central asia along with the huns and alans who also seem to have been asiatic originally but also mixed with the tribes around them. We tend to think of the huns as being caucasian, the magyars, the cossacks but when you meet someone from eastern europe you can often see asiatic features but they have round eyes.

Huns - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Alans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I find it fascinating but It's not something I can claim to know much about. I think anyone who bangs on about racial purity hasn't really thought about it. In europe the romans completely destroyed any seperate tribal identity and as each successive migration and invasion took place it must have happened time and time again.

[aocitizen]

Hi, GMC. Thank you for your interesting posting. You're right, the whole notion of "racial purity" is a farce, there is no such thing as a "pure" race. Certain Germans thoroughly discredited that concept. Almost all nationalities are as mixed as Americans, just at a further remove in time. We have to look hard to find relatively unmixed representatives of a "race," like Circassians or Evenkis; yet even these have admixture. I see you are from Scotland, where many nationalities made their home. I know this is off-topic, but what is your take on the Picts and Attecotti? I hear they are related to the Basques. Interesting you said Vikings, some of the Caucasian strains in central Asia can be traced back to the Tocharians, who were long ago from the area of Estonia! The Varangian Rus were Swedes, but the name Rus may have come from the Roxolani, an Iranian tribe in the Ukraine. Many northern Pakistanis and Kashmiris are blonde and blue-eyed from the Burushaski, who live in the area. Please give me your thoughts on the Picts. Thanks.

[aocitizen]

I really like the ideas introduced here by China Watcher, they are very convincing. The question at the end of this posting is directed to him. Taiwan is now considered to be the cradle of the Austronesian people. No Chinese lived there until relatively recently in history. The Austronesians and the Daics were originally one people living in southern China; they diverged when the Austronesians moved to Taiwan from the mainland while the Daics remained in Fukien. The original Austronesians found Papuans living in the island before them including, interestingly enough, black Ainoids. Someone asked where the Australian Aborigines came from earlier in this thread. All evidence seems to point to India, and before that Africa (all of our ancestors are from Africa actually). But before they lived in Australia, the ancestors of the Aborigines inhabited Southeast Asia and a large part of China (probably north up to the Yangtze River). They were driven thence by later migrations, but are still a significant component of the racial heritage of Indochina and southern China. Do you think that the Kumaso and Hayato peoples of Kyushu were Austronesian migrants from Taiwan? Japanese has a stratum of Austronesian.

[gmc]

aocitizen;1351458 wrote: Hi, GMC. Thank you for your interesting posting. You're right, the whole notion of "racial purity" is a farce, there is no such thing as a "pure" race. Certain Germans thoroughly discredited that concept. Almost all nationalities are as mixed as Americans, just at a further remove in time. We have to look hard to find relatively unmixed representatives of a "race," like Circassians or Evenkis; yet even these have admixture. I see you are from Scotland, where many nationalities made their home. I know this is off-topic, but what is your take on the Picts and Attecotti? I hear they are related to the Basques. Interesting you said Vikings, some of the Caucasian strains in central Asia can be traced back to the Tocharians, who were long ago from the area of Estonia! The Varangian Rus were Swedes, but the name Rus may have come from the Roxolani, an Iranian tribe in the Ukraine. Many northern Pakistanis and Kashmiris are blonde and blue-eyed from the Burushaski, who live in the area. Please give me your thoughts on the Picts. Thanks.


They are related it seems but the basques being more isolated have managed to keep some of the dna more intact.

BBC News | WALES | Genes link Celts to Basques

there were many tribes of celts so it's kind of hard to point to just one strand and say that's them. There's even a mention of them in the bible as a distinct group and there are indications of trade links all round the mediteranean with the british isles and if you look at a map of europe and the rivers you can see how the vikings would have followed the rivers and started trading. Baltic amber turns up in the middle east in bronze age graves and it seems likely they readed with india and china as well.

Galatia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pytheas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's not clear where the attacotti came from, I have no real take on the issue there must have been thousands of displaced tribespeople floating around looking for a home. We tend to think of distinct nation states and tribes it may just have been a convenient grouping for maureders. The picts fought themselves to a standstill against the saxons leaving themn too weak to fend off the scots when they arrives. In any case all that is left of the original inhabitants of britain is a DNA trace and some place names. If tribes integrate they tend to combine languages, if one takes over and conquers then their language becomes dominant.

Wales, come from the Old English word wealh, meaning "foreigner, stranger, Celt." Its plural wealas is the direct ancestor of Wales, literally "foreigners. Says it all really.

[Ahso!]

The Chinese came from rocks like the rest of us.

[aocitizen]

Well, I will tell you what I heard about the Picts and company, and you can correct me or not as you please. My apologies to China historians for digressing to Scotland, but I will talk to you about China if you post me. I heard the "brownies" of Scottish fable were Capoids who inhabited all western Europe around 9000 BC. How did they get there from South Africa? They didn't, the Capoid race originated in nearby Morocco! Some Capoids crossed the strait and became the first inhabitants of Ireland around this time (leprechauns?). The Capoids were absorbed by later waves of invasion. Robert Graves says the Attecotti were from Thrace, because the name means "sons of Cottys," the goddess of Thrace. They were Dene-Caucasians, like the later and quite different Picts. The Picts were a branch of the Ambrones, a Caucasic people of northern Germany and the Low Countries, who traded in amber. The Picts called themselves the Prydani, and the name Britain comes from this. The Fomori were a Liguro-Lappic people from pre-IE Norway who lived in the Hebrides; they invaded Ireland. Some Picts later learned how to speak a Celtic patois from the later Celtic wave in the South, but they weren't really Brythonic. Three waves of Celts invaded Britain, the Goidelic (Gaels), the Cimbric (Brythonic), and the Gaulic (Belgae, Atrebates, etc.). Gomer is mentioned in the Bible as being the father of the Cimmerians (relatives of the Armenians). These people were driven from the Ukraine by the Scythians and mingled with Gaels in Bohemia, giving rise to the Cimbric Celts; so Gomer really is the father of the Welsh. Most of today's Welsh people were originally Brythons from Gododdin in Scotland by the way, thanks to Cunedda. Incidentally, I think of the Hmong as the Celts of East Asia, since they are the underlying substrate of the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese. Britain's first Indo-European invasion was not Celtic, but Venedic from the Baltic. The Venedi are also the ancestors of the Tocharians, who made it all the way to China! So there is a connection after all. Please tell me what you think about my ideas of ancient Scotland. Thanks.

[gmc]

aocitizen;1351695 wrote: Well, I will tell you what I heard about the Picts and company, and you can correct me or not as you please. My apologies to China historians for digressing to Scotland, but I will talk to you about China if you post me. I heard the "brownies" of Scottish fable were Capoids who inhabited all western Europe around 9000 BC. How did they get there from South Africa? They didn't, the Capoid race originated in nearby Morocco! Some Capoids crossed the strait and became the first inhabitants of Ireland around this time (leprechauns?). The Capoids were absorbed by later waves of invasion. Robert Graves says the Attecotti were from Thrace, because the name means "sons of Cottys," the goddess of Thrace. They were Dene-Caucasians, like the later and quite different Picts. The Picts were a branch of the Ambrones, a Caucasic people of northern Germany and the Low Countries, who traded in amber. The Picts called themselves the Prydani, and the name Britain comes from this. The Fomori were a Liguro-Lappic people from pre-IE Norway who lived in the Hebrides; they invaded Ireland. Some Picts later learned how to speak a Celtic patois from the later Celtic wave in the South, but they weren't really Brythonic. Three waves of Celts invaded Britain, the Goidelic (Gaels), the Cimbric (Brythonic), and the Gaulic (Belgae, Atrebates, etc.). Gomer is mentioned in the Bible as being the father of the Cimmerians (relatives of the Armenians). These people were driven from the Ukraine by the Scythians and mingled with Gaels in Bohemia, giving rise to the Cimbric Celts; so Gomer really is the father of the Welsh. Most of today's Welsh people were originally Brythons from Gododdin in Scotland by the way, thanks to Cunedda. Incidentally, I think of the Hmong as the Celts of East Asia, since they are the underlying substrate of the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese. Britain's first Indo-European invasion was not Celtic, but Venedic from the Baltic. The Venedi are also the ancestors of the Tocharians, who made it all the way to China! So there is a connection after all. Please tell me what you think about my ideas of ancient Scotland. Thanks.


I don't think you can say anything with real certainty except there were constant migrations and intermingling of tribes. Scotland was easily accessible by sea from the baltic and it was the east coast that was the most settled by the picts purely for that reason. There are indications of trade between the UK and north africa and some of the languages suggest a common root. The picts were quite small compared to the later migrants from scandanavia into ireland and the UK which probably goes a long way to explain their defeat. Better diet and more advanced weapons make a big difference. If the history in Ireland is anything like what happened in shetland they killed all the inhabitants and just took over, possibly interbred with what was left and the leprechaun and brownie fable could be no more than tales told about those who were there before. Whether they were capoids (interesting theory and one I have not heard before) or not they ceased to exist.

When the bantu and white men moved in to south africa they both hunted down the original inhabitants, the hopttentots, for sport and just took their land, the natives of tasmania were hunted to extinction and there was little interbreeding since quite bluntly europeans thought them ugly. I see no reason to believe our ancestors were any more caring about those who were here first. Genocide is nothing new and if the invaders didn't find the capoids attractive they would just have wiped them out.

Khoikhoi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some like like to be able to say these are the people and this is where they come from but the reality is they were absorbed is often just a synonym for they were exterminated by a more powerful invader. The goggodin were defeated by the angles whether they were then absorbed or just sold off as slaves we just don't know. All that is left is a few place names.

After the romans left there would have been the formation of new tribes around war leaders and the romans usually didn't allow natives in their armies to serve in their own country so the Attecotti were perhaps the remnants of one such auxiliary regiment rather than any new group coming across. Home tends to be where you spend most of your life rather than where you come from and peopl would congregate around anyone strong enough just to stay alive. The goddodin lasted till the sixth century and then fell to better equipped warriors.

Y Gododdin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are stone age brochs and burial grounds you can go and stand in. The people hat built them would have no chance against warriors with bronze and later iron weapons. Warriors without armour stand little chance against those that do.

[aocitizen]

Absorption is much more common than genocide. Even the Cro-Magnons mated with and absorbed the presumably ugly Neanderthals, because geneticists have determined that we all have 4% Neanderthal genes! The Attecotti were incredibly ancient, spoke a language described as Basque-like, and had lived in the Hebrides millenia before the Romans ever came. In a book about the Picts that I read, Scotland was described as a cul-de-sac where strange populations came from all over Europe and couldn't get out again. The Capoid race used to be extremely numerous and widespread. They are thought to be one of the major components of the present-day Caucasian race. I saw a picture of a Capoid woman arguing with a vendor in her native Morocco, and she had that same pixieish look you see all over Ireland today. The brownies were based, in fact, on the Picts; the fact that they were small, as you say, and sallow (brown) suggests that the Capoid blood survived in a large measure with them. Prehistoric Capoids stretched all the way from Morocco to South Africa to China, they were very important in prehistoric times. Some people think the Asian race began when Siberian Amerinds combined with Capoids from China and Melanesians from even further south. The Gododdin (that is, the Votadini) did not die out at all, and you can verify this with Welsh acquaintances. After the Romans left, Wales was almost completely conquered by the Irish, and would be speaking Gaelic today if not for Cunedda (or Kenneth). The Welsh relate that Vortigern (or another high king, perhaps Ambrosius) ordered Cunedda, king of the Votadini, to move his people en masse from Scotland and reconquer Wales from the Irish. This Cunedda did, with great dispatch. The result is that the people of Wales and Lowland Scotland are much more closely related than you would imagine, since Wales was recolonized from Lothian. It is true the Tasmanians were wiped out (and the Old Prussians too), but the Khoikhoi are alive and kicking in South Africa. They are just a tiny fragment of the original Capoid race. Most Capoids today are thoroughly mixed with Europeans, Asians and Africans. I have read that the broch people were remnants of the Goidelic wave that once inhabited all of Britain (like Gogmagog, the giant who fought Corineus). I have some Scottish blood myself, I love Scottish history, it's very unique. Talk to you soon.

[gmc]

I'm not suggesting the goddodin were wiped out but they were completely overwhelmed and subjugated as were the picts. The romans auxiliary regiments were quite often all from the same tribe or region and served in the army for decades, the attecotti may have been from thrace but I think it more likely it was one such regiment that didn't go home and took on the identity rather than a distinct new group. That's just my opinion I have no research to back it up. The goddodin were probably much the same, groups of local banding together to fend off invaders - and there were rather a lot of them. You see the same in germany and france and poland and russia. It's the victors who get to write the histories. There were also suggestions there were black african troops around as well at the time.

When the roman empire fell there was turmoil all over europe and mass migrations were taking place. Any heavily armed group would have been in a position to start forming a power base. If you look at any council housiong estate you can see how new tribes form and change with the times.

The result is that the people of Wales and Lowland Scotland are much more closely related than you would imagine, since Wales was recolonized from Lothian.


That I was well aware of but in lothian the old welsh language completely disappeared which suggest total defeat and absorption by stronger forces. The picts were facing the scots and the strathclyde britons, they too all but dispappeared. All that's left is a few place names and strange stones in what is now the middle or nowhere.

There has been constant movement out of central asia through scandanavia and in to the british isles and there was also migration from north africa into ireland and the british isles. on a regular basis you get people with tightly curled hair and brown eyes as well as blue eyes cropping up in the same family, redheads are another genetic trait that keeps cropping up. I find it fascinating but need to do a lot more reading on the subject.

shetlandislandsY-DNA

[aocitizen]

Well, it is a little dark to think they were all mercilessly wiped out. The Gododddin who remained behind, I'm sure the Angles or whoever killed many of them, but I think many survived and just lost their language. In other words, they started speaking Anglo-Saxon. The Angles, Saxons and Jutes didn't kill every Celt in Britain, they just robbed them of their culture. Within a few generations, they were all speaking Anglo-Saxon too. The present-day British people have much Celtic blood, even though they speak a Germanic language, English. Likewise, the Picts were not genocided, they were just absorbed by the Scots, as were the Strathclydians and even the Bernician Angles. Bloodlines live on, even if they may switch languages several times. Remember that guy in Cheddar, England, who discovered that an 8000 year old bog man dug out of a nearby bog was his genetic relative? His family had survived that long, with perhaps a dozen language changes, in one spot! So, I think present-day Scots are most likely an amalgamation of all the many peoples who have lived there. I'm sure you're right about Roman legionaries of many nationalities being present in Britain. There was Sarmatian heavy mounted cavalry for sure, some think Arthur's mounted knights were a reflection or continuation of them. In Ossetia in the Caucasus, they have the same story of an arm clad in white samite handing a magical sword to a king. The Ossetians are the surviving Sarmatians! I met this weird guy once who told me redheadedness originated in Denmark, and that it was a genetic adaptation that allowed hunters to blend in with the red clay landscape of that peninsula. Or maybe blondes just married people with brown hair, I don't know. The Picts had lots of redheads, part of their genetic makeup was Ambrone from the Baltic. The Irish have a long, involved saga of migrations into their island. One of the waves was called Nemed, they were an Iberian-Berber mixture from Algeria, and brought that funny drum. When I was in Ireland, I met a shepherdess with bright yellow eyes, like the Berbers. I almost fell over, but she was very beautiful. Yes, some of my Italian cousins have tightly curled hair, which indicates Albanian ancestry, very common in southern Italy. Are you from the Shetlands, that's a whole history book in itself! The Scottish part of my family is called Killoch, would you know which part of Scotland that might be from? I still think the Attecotti are pre-Celtic, maybe there's something on them in Wikipedia. I have a book by John Morris called The Age of Arthur, and he seems to think they're very old. Oh well. A pleasure, as always, to chat with you. Language and ethnology is my fascination, it's good to meet someone who knows what I'm talking about. Cheers.

[gmc]

Well, it is a little dark to think they were all mercilessly wiped out.


I haven't suggested they were wiped out but they were overwhelmed and subjugated, That is not the same as extermination. The romans overwhelmed and subjugated gaul and britain, it's a similar kind of conquest imo.

I still think the Attecotti are pre-Celtic, maybe there's something on them in Wikipedia. I have a book by John Morris called The Age of Arthur, and he seems to think they're very old. Oh well. A pleasure, as always, to chat with you. Language and ethnology is my fascination, it's good to meet someone who knows what I'm talking about. Cheers.


Try Alastair Moffat: The faded map, and also the sea kingdoms. They are both good reads as well as being fairly well researched. The faded map is about this time period and the goddodin and bernicia.

I think present-day Scots are most likely an amalgamation of all the many peoples who have lived there


I'd agree with that. You can say the same about any nation really. Just don't mention it to the would be supremacists.

Attacotti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is no other information available on the Attacotti other than their brief mention in these sources, and based on historical evidence, there is nothing more to be said of them. This article discusses the historical Attacotti of Roman Britain, their likely service as Roman auxiliaries, and their possible link to Ireland.


I have my doubts about them being a remnant of a pre-celtic tribe. The urge to romanticise is a strong one.

For your surname it depends what time period you want to look at.

Where Killoch Families lived in Scotland in 1891 - Ancestry.com

UK Census Collection - Ancestry.com

My own surname was one that belonged to a proscribed clan after the jacobite rebellion. But scots and irish surnames when they are written by an english speaker end up in all sorts of combination because they can't pronounce the sounds and guess at the spelling. The ch sound was also written as gh, killoch can also be spelt killough, or cullough mckilloch, mcculloch. The Mc was dropped from a lot of names for expediency. In a lot of cases you can't really point to a map and say that's where I come from all you can do is speculate. It's a bit different for those that were forced to emigrate to canada and the states.. A lot of scots were drawn to the cities for work or because they were forced off the land. so you get concentrations of highland names around glasgow and ayrshire.

I met this weird guy once who told me redheadedness originated in Denmark, and that it was a genetic adaptation that allowed hunters to blend in with the red clay landscape of that peninsula. Or maybe blondes just married people with brown hair, I don't know.


Blonde slaves used to get a premium. Even now people find blondes interesting. Once Came across a reference to the shah of iran in the 16th century sending as slaves to he emperor of china blonde dancing girls where they attracted much fascinated interest. Just think of the story behind that one.

Sack of Baltimore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[aocitizen]

So little about the Attecotti? Och, aye! I am resigned. Then what the hey was Robert Graves talking about? J.R.R. Tolkien once said that Robert Graves was the biggest liar that he ever met in his life; but old J.R.R. had a poker up his you-know-what about something most of the time. "The White Goddess" is still one of my favorite books, I highly recommend it to you. Yes, my history of Scotland book tells me a terrible story that I could scarcely believe. It was akin to genocide driving those poor crofters off their land like that! Scotland should be independent with all that North Sea oil! My country, America, is what Scotland was millennia ago, a melting-pot of nations. Perhaps in a thousand years we'll turn into something monolithic, like the Bengals. The Samoyedes have typical Asian features, but also blonde hair and blue eyes! Some say blondeness began with them. Some say the reason some Australian Aborigines are blonde is that they met Cro-Magnon/Neanderthal hybrids on that island, but I don't know. I saw a picture of some early twentieth century Ainus, and they looked as European as can be. The trouble is, the Ainoids started out black as the ace of spades. Something must have happened somewhere along the line. Thank you, I will try Alistair Moffat, sounds like my cup of tea. As for the Killochs, they could possibly be Anglo-Saxon Kelloggs, we're still trying to clarify that. Perhaps they was Bernicians. People from all over Britain have a certain look, and I'll bet it's the Celtic look. No, they weren't wiped out, just deculturized. Oh, bless me, the Chinese! What must they think! Uh, Tocharians, guys? As I was saying, the Sino-Tibetans as a whole originated in the Kunlun. Some moved south down the Yangtze to Yunnan, where some mixed with Austroasiatics and became the Huaxia. These moved east down the Yangtze to the Szechwan basin, where they rested a while. Then they hied themselves to the Huang He and took over. They did the Celt thing with the native Dongyi and turned into the Old Chinese. Mr. China Watcher, you are a genius, sir! You thought no one was listening, but I'm listening. And you are very correct, your genetic tables prove that the Chinese came from Yunnan. I am meeting the hemmers and hawers you described on other threads, and I am sending these recalcitrants to you. Please help me to change their minds, you can do it! GMC, thank you for the pleasure of your company. Talk to you soon. The Ao Citizen

[aocitizen]

I am very disillusioned with another forum, not this one, which shall remain nameless. This Forum was kind enough to wish me a happy birthday, I feel like there are good people here. But when I tried to tell this other forum about China Watcher's theory of a southwestern origin of the Chinese, I had scorn poured on my head. They said specious things like no one could walk that far. It was like I was insulting them, but I was just trying to explain this theory to them. China Watcher, you were right; their minds were not just closed, they were ossified! You'd think I was trying to claim that the world was flat, or something. If you ever want to go to this forum and present your proof, I will tell you who it is. But it seems to be an emotional isuue with them, it's either the Kunlun or nothing at all. But I believe you, not them. They were unable to refute you with anything except blind dogma. You must excuse my indignation, I was sat upon rather hard. But the people at this forum are nice, thank you for that.

[aocitizen]

China Watcher, if I may ask you a question, do you think the proto-Sinitics came from Yunnan? At this other forum, people became indignant when I told your theory to them and said it couldn't be so. They said it had to be the Kunlun, and that the Chinese never started in the south. I think the evidence you have presented is good. Could you please tell me how the Chinese came from the south to the north? Thank you. Also, in your opinion, what language did the Shang people speak, and were they related to the Dongyi? Thank you for considering my questions. Regards, Aocitizen

[aocitizen]

I have been doing a lot of reading on the Shang people recently here on the Internet, and have found out many interesing things. You can read these same articles if you look under Shang. I am going to have to revise my theory about who the Shang/Dongyi were in light of new information. Originally I thought that the Shang people must have been related to the Hmong, because the Hmong say they came to the Yangtze from a cold northern homeland. Some of the Dongyi perhaps were Hmongic, because the Koreans and the Japanese claim kinship to them, and the Hmong largely reciprocate. But more likely, some of the Dongyi fled south from the Huaxia and fundamentally altered the Hmong by fusing with them. If the Hmong, the Koreans, and the Japanese are related, it is through common Dongyi heritage. But there is the question of why the Japanese have a Dravidian substrate in their language. The Dongyi of Shantung settled Korea, but Japan was settled by Dongyi from Jiangsu. In both cases, the Dongyi mixed with Tungusics when they stopped in Korea. The article I read about the Shang says they were originally called the Black Shang, and were Australoid in race. It said that the language they spoke was a mixture of Daic and Dravidian! All China south of the Huang He was originally inhabited by Australoids, and the east coast of China was Australoid to a very late historical date. After the Indo-European invasion of India in 1500 BCE, some of the Dravidians there apparently fled to East China to get away from them, and settled among the Australoids on the east coast. The Daic people originated in the area of Fukien. I believe now that they originally migrated north; some also went westward, but I think their main western migration took place when they were being rolled back by the Chinese some centuries later. At any rate, these northern Daics mixed with the Dravidians and Australoids (and maybe some Hmongics) to become the Shang/Dongyi people. Much later some of the Jiangsu Dongyi went to Paekche in Korea and mixed with the Tungusics. Some of these, later known as the Yayoi people, invaded and conquered Japan around 300 BCE. These were the transmitters of the Dravidian strain to the Japanese language (of course they are also the main Tungusic transmitters, but Japanese Altaic is very different from the main branch, more like a creole). I also think it most likely that the Shang/Dongyi were the people that the Huaxia mixed with when they arrived in the Huang He valley from Yunnan around 2500 BCE. Because Chinese and Korean do not contain significant amounts of Dravidian, unlike Japanese, I think that the Dravidian part of the Dongyi lived mainly in Jiangsu, and crossed the Yellow Sea from there. Thoughts, anyone?

[aocitizen]

The Sino-Tibetans originated at the headwaters of the Yangtze River in the Kunlun Mountains. Some of those Tibetic people migrated south down the river and entered Yunnan, where they mixed with the Old Malayic people they found there. This hybrid people became the Proto-Sinitics, known to history as the Huaxia people. The Huaxia were driven out of Yunnan by a massive Daic invasion from the east. Under their leader, Xuanyuan, they fled east down the Yangtze. Those Huaxia who remained behind became the Bai people of today. The Huaxia entered the Szechuan Basin and engaged the native Hmongics in a battle near Chongqing, which the Huaxia lost. The Huaxia then fled up the Jialing river, crossed the Qin Ling Mountians, and entered the Wei River valley, which they conquered. Using this area as a base, the Huaxia conquered the central Huang He valley, and held the eastern coast in vassalage. The people that they conquered there were the Proto-Austronesian Shang people, whom the ancient Chinese called the Dongyi. They merged with the Dongyi to form the Old Chinese; this was the real beginning of the Chinese Kingdom. Some Dongyi fled to the Yangtze and merged with the Hmongs; those who didn't merge fled futher south and became the Buyang people of south China. After some time had past, the ruling Xia Dynasty (the descendents of Xuanyuan), were overthrown by eastern nobles of Dongyi origin who inaugurated the Yin Dynasty. This is better known as the Shang dynasty, because they came from the Shang people. The first of these new rulers were known as the Black Shang, because they were of the Australoid race which predominated on the Chinese coasts at this time. The Shang ruled for several centuries until they in turn were overthrown by the Zhou people from the far west, who inaugurated the Zhou Dynasty. The Zhou people were Huaxia mixed with the Rong tribe of the far west, who were of mixed Altaic and Tocharian (from Europe) origin; some of the Rong had red hair and green eyes. The nomadic Rong taught the Zhou the art of mounted archery, which helped them in their conquest of Old China. When they conquered Shandong and Jiangsu as well, the Dongyi people of that area fled to Korea and mixed with the Tungusics there. Some of the mixed Shang/Tungusics, later called the Yayoi, invaded and unified Japan. This, to the best of my understanding, is where the Chinese people came from (as well as the Koreans and the Japanese). China Watcher, I don't know if you're still around, but if you are please tell me if you think I'm right in the essentials. Respectfully, Aocitizen

[aocitizen]

I don't know where China Watcher is, maybe he's not on the Internet anymore. Well, I'm afraid I don't believe the Yunnan theory anymore. I think it's more likely that the Sino-Tibetans began in Tsinghai, and the Sinitic branch itself in Shaanxi. I think the Proto-Sinitics originated from a Yeneseian invasion of Shaanxi in early times, the result of a Yeneseian/Tibetic fusion. Many think the tonal system of Chinese comes from Yeneseian. The Huaxia people then would have expanded from their original home in the Wei River valley. I think that the Dongyi they encountered in Shandong were an Altaic/Hmong mixture, speaking something related to Korean. The Chiwoo clan of Shandong was part of the Shinshi confederacy, the earliest Koreans, but the Hmong claim that their earliest ancestor was Chi You, king of Chiwoo; and this is who the Dongyi people really were, Koreans mixed with Hmongs. When Emperor Xuan of Zhou made the final conquest of the Dongyi in 800 BCE, many fled across the Yellow Sea to neolithic Korea and instituted bronze metallurgy there. In 600 BCE, the first Korean kingdom arose in the form of Gojoseon, which had its capital at present-day Pyongyang.

[aocitizen]

Forumgardens is the best forum I have found yet because they do not have an agenda, and they are very tolerant and understanding. I went off on a tangent and talked about Scottish history for a while. Did they get mad at me and toss me out of the forum? They did not! They wished me a happy birthday instead. People don't talk much here, that's my only complaint (except if it's about Scottish history, all right, I asked!). China Watcher is nowhere to be seen, perhaps he got discouraged by the pub invitations. Asiasfinest Forums was so enraged when I told them his theory that they pitched me out on my ear. Koreansentry Forum was enraged because I dared say a kind word about the Chinese, and pitched me out. They're very arbitrary, intolerant, opinionated, and they hate each other bitterly. Plus, they don't like Europeans expressing an opinion on their history, they hustle you out. It's kind of like an ironfisted dictatorship at those forums, they don't want, nor will they tolerate, dissent or speculation. They're just old boy clubs really. What a sad state of affairs on the Net. Okay, so the Yunnan thing is wrong, don't fly into a rage about it. Don't get mad at me, Korean scholars, when I disagree with your intolerant and slanted assessments that there is no such thing as Sino-Tibetan. I would like to get the bigots together from both sides and watch them kill each other. The Tai-Austroneisan site immediately asked me if I was Tai or Austronesian, and when I said no, they immediately got bored and lost interest and ignored me. They're God on their little sites, they can be as rude as they want and no one will correct them. God help you if you express an opinion they don't like, they'll pitch you out, no matter how reasonable the idea you express is. Well, there's always the Scottish site. Hello, China Watcher? I think they come from Shaanxi, at least you're not around to stomp on me for it.

[gmc]

For some reason I have not been able to post on this particular forum, hopefully this will work. My knowledge of early chinese history is sketchy at best, I thought the koreans were descendants of one of the tribes of china that fled there to avoid the interminable warfare.

What about the terracotta warriors, how different are they from modern chinese? I have seen it suggested they came out of the steppes.

I think you will find european sites just as bigoted, try arguing with a white supremacist or disputing our civilisation is essentially judeo christian and we owe everything to Christianity.

[aocitizen]

Hi gmc! Oh yeah, I hate those supremies too, I really hate 'em! I rarely encounter them, thank God, but I take it you've had some unpleasant experiences? Eastern cultures are far from being in debt to Christianity, they've gotten nothing except a lot of evil and BS from the West. The Western powers' treatment of China was a travesty, disgraceful! Hiroshima was a racist atrocity; the only reason it wasn't punished was that America won the war. Well, I am going to European sites soon, but I know so much it will be shooting fish in a barrel; I love Asian history because it's challenging to me. I don't mind being corrected, as long as I learn something. I made a terrible mistake, I wasn't thrown off Koreansentry at all; I just stupidly forgot to log in that time. Heh-heh, sorry, guys. New computer user, still trying to figure it out. It's a wonderful, informative site, actually they're quite patient with my wilder flights of fantasy. Asianforum won't let me back on though, or maybe I forgot to log on there too? I'll have to check. Maybe it's all technical incompetence by me, and I'm getting needlessly worked up. Oh well, no one's perfect, me least of all. I think those terra cotta guys were from the Qin Dynasty, I think they were from the west. Maybe they were effigies of the Rong people, they were noteable western nomads of the time. The Rong were probably a cross between Turks and Tocharians from Europe, some had red hair and green eyes; they weren't Han Chinese. The best way to get rid of white supremacists, I've found, is to mock them and throw their own ridiculous beliefs back in their faces, so they can examine them and hopefully feel some shame. Our marvellous culture owes the Thirty Years War to Christianity, for one thing. Don't forget Protestant on Protestant violence during the English Civil War; it's all absolutely ridiculous, killing for God. The IRA, look at them. I'm mostly Irish, but I don't like 'em. I believe in God but I do not belong to a religion, because of all the baggage. The Koreans are part Dongyi, those are an Altaic people of Shandong who got kicked out of China by the Zhou; they went to Korea, so I guess that's your lost tribe. The Koreans are mainly themselves though, mostly Tungusic Altaic with a few Paleo-Siberian things mixed in. They're a very proud people, and very individualistic. That was fun discussing Scotland that time, but we should probably stay on topic on a thread entitled Where Do Chinese Come From? It was my fault, I asked, I know. Still can't get over those Attecotti. Great talking to you again, gmc. Take care, talk to you again.

[gmc]

Hi gmc! Oh yeah, I hate those supremies too, I really hate 'em! I rarely encounter them, thank God, but I take it you've had some unpleasant experiences? Eastern cultures are far from being in debt to Christianity, they've gotten nothing except a lot of evil and BS from the West.


Not unpleasant I find they tend to know very little history and tend to believe what they are told. Best wind up if they have brown eyes is to suggest they must be a) immigrants or b) have coloured ancestry because they don't have blue eyes. Just watch who you say it to, they have no sense of humour some of them.

The Western powers' treatment of China was a travesty, disgraceful! Hiroshima was a racist atrocity; the only reason it wasn't punished was that America won the war


No worse than what the mongols did to europe and the middle east and asia or any conquering tribe has ever done. People are the same the world over. Would they have been less racist without christianity? perhaps perhaps not but racism is not confined to europeans.

As to Horoshima and nagasaki, it was wartime, it saved millions of allied lives and if the japanese had had it they would have used it as well. Hitler would have used one as well if he had had it first as well and since he had and did use ballistic missiles it's a good job he didn't. As my father once pointed out. If you knew the next stop was the far east and the invasion of japan you would have been quite pleased as well. I doubt the chinese were terribly upset either. If you go to war don't complain about the consequences.

I think the only thing you can say with certainty is that we are all more related and mixed up than some would like to admit. A lot of people seem to think history started with the greeks and romans and the birth of christ but there was an awful lot went on before that. In a real sense the emphasis on christianity and it's influence detracts from the very real achievements of our ancestors not to mention ignoring most of the world's history. My pet hate is christianity taught us all morality claptrap.

Europeans were trading with china and india in the first century BC - you wonder how much to and fro there really was in the past. That Periplus is the same kind of thing early mariners used to use to find routes before they worked out latitude and longitude and proper charts, a kind of route description they used to guide themselves, the Portuguese mariners that made their way to japan must have got their info from older stories - don't know for sure but I find the idea intriguing and it makes sense. Christopher columbus thought he knew where he was going.

You can tell if a language is indigenous to a region if the place names are also descriptions of features. The Gaelic names for the mountains also describe them - so a gaelic speaker describing a cross country route to another is doing so telling what features to look out for to know you are on the right route. One glen is like another but if you know to keep to the left of the red mountain or there's one that's shaped like a tit it makes sense.

The Pap of Glencoe | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

I don't know about korean but it would be intriguing if it was the same as in gaelic, the mountain names also describe them which would mean the people are indigenous, if not they were invaders. Good theory?

[aocitizen]

Hello everyone, it has been a long time. Where did the Chinese come from? In 30,000 BC, the Dene-Daic migration left Ethiopia and went to Armenia. Their western branch became the Old Europeans (who finished off the last Neanderthals), the northern branch became the Dene-Caucasians, and the eastern branch became the Austrics. The Austrics went to China and encountered Australoids and Capoids who had hybridized with a Neanderthal relative (I think called Gaviotis) around 70,000 BC (this was the beginning of the Asian race). The Dene-Caucasians and Austrics met and mingled in Tibet, creating the Tibetics. China was Austric until a large Tibetic migration changed their ethnic makeup. Then many of them became Sino-Tibetans. The Sino-Tibetan homeland was probably Szechwan; some Sino-Tibetans conquered the Austric Longshan culture (in the Huang He valley) around 2000 BC, and gave rise to the Old Chinese. The Austrics who were not absorbed became the Jiuli people in Shandong and Jiangsu (the Dongyi). Many moved south in Zhou times and became the Hmong-Mien. The rest sailed east from China at the beginning of the Han era and became the Yayoi people who wrested Japan from the Jomon. They were later absorbed by the Altaic Kofun invaders from Korea. The Dene-Daic migration from Ethiopia was huge, it changed the demographics of the world. The Ethiopian migration that gave rise to the Amerinds was only in 20,000 BC, and the Nostratic invasion giving rise to Indo-Europeans, Hamito-Semitics, Uralics, and Altaics, was the last major wave to leave Africa, around 10,000 BC.

[mikeinie]

and here I thought that they came from China....

[YZGI]

mikeinie;1359278 wrote: and here I thought that they came from China....


Phht!!

[aocitizen]

Well they did live in China at a very early date, but originally they came from varying places. If you go back far enough, we all seem to have come from Ethiopia. The Chinese have lived in China for thousands of years, but they spoke something related to Hmong before the Tibetans invaded them. Just like the British spoke Welsh before the Anglo-Saxons invaded them. I think it's fascinating that the Chinese are related to the Basques and the Navajos. Now that was a group that got around!

[aocitizen]

Incidentally, the Old Europeans only killed off the purebred Neanderthals. They absorbed the quite numerous Neanderthal hybrids from the Middle East, and this became the nucleus of the Caucasian race. Homo Denisova in China had lots of Erectus blood, and this is where the yellow pigmentation of the Asian race came from. It was Denisova, I don't know where I got "Gaviotis" from.

[colonel_ives]

rather than flirting with spurious "blood" concepts that have caused such suffering elsewhere.


The family unit is one such "spurious blood concept", from there it spreads to kinfolk, then to the tribe, then to the race. No one thinks it odd if I display preferential treatment for my own son, or my own cousin, and it's even ok in some cases to show preference for ones own ethnicity "hey, you are Irish too, ok, you've got the job". But it is a BIG political no-no if I let it spread one step beyond that to showing preferential treatment to my race, oh God forbid. If you continue down this extremist path of eliminating all genetic preference from society, when you get right down to it, that means the family unit goes out the window as well. This is hunky dory for liberal lemmings like Warren Buffet (who is happily leaving all his money to charity rather than his own children), but those of us with an iota of traditionalism left are in a heap of trouble if we plan to practice traditional values like the time honored tradition of showing preference for your kinfolk.

We humans are a dirty animal, we eat, we sh*t, we p*ss, we make mistakes, in fact there is very little we have that we can feel proud of, especially when you face that fact that 9/10 of us just aren't going to accomplish that much in our lives. So it is not so "outrageous" that we like to take pride in the collective accomplishments of our racial ancestors. And I know what you're thinking, "why not just feel proud of human achievements then". I will tell you why. Because it is that sort of thinking that gives every child on both teams a trophy regardless of who wins. Or who gives each child a ribbon and congratulate him for being the last "winner". If "everyone" is special, then that defeats the whole concept. If an African wants to feel proud of being Zulu, or a Chinese proud of being Chinese, I say good on them. It gives us something ancient and greater than our everyday lives to hold onto. So you can feel free to go around saying there is no such thing as race and adopt ten kids from Rwanda, if that makes you happy then go for it. But at the same time, I will continue to read Beowulf and honor my ancestors, because that's what makes me feel good.