Ted wrote: Paul was even in disagreement with John the Baptist over the meaning of Baptism.I don't see it as a disagreement. Paul said that John's baptism was a baptism of repentance, and that John told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus. (Acts 19:4) There wasn't anything wrong with that, and Paul didn't disagree. But John lived in the days prior to the ascencion of Christ, before the baptism of the Holy Spirit was universally available to believers. John's baptism was only one of two necessary steps in becoming fully baptised into Christ. Paul taught the baptism of the Holy Spirit also, a more complete gospel than was available in the time of John.
Ted wrote: It is also interesting to note that there was considerable disagreement within the early church between Paul and James, the Brother of Jesus and Peter. Neither James not Peter could accept Paul's definition of Jew or Israel
I don’t see any disagreement in what Paul and James taught, except that Paul and James may have been writing to different audiences. People who pride themselves on their relationship with God and reduce the importance of obedience need James’ message. People who pride themselves on their obedience and take credit for it as something meritorious need Paul’s message. You have to incorporate both messages to have a full and balanced gospel.Ted wrote: I think we must also be very cautious of what we do with Paul and the others. We must not make them into infallible human beings. Paul wrote many letters and some attributed to him were written after his death. He did not realize that he was writing what would later become "scripture."No one’s saying Paul was perfect. God always uses imperfect people, because they’re all that’s available. Evidently Peter considered Paul’s writings Scripture. I think Paul did, but he was too humble to say it out loud.
2 Peter 3:16
He (Paul) writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
But I agree with you that in the beginning most believers only had the Law and the Prophets to study. I don’t know how widely the writings of the Apostles were circulated in the first century, but it took some time before people got reliable copies of their own as we have today- and I respect your right to your opinion, but I fully trust the authenticity of what we have today.
The Raven challenge!
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telaquapacky
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:00 pm
The Raven challenge!
Look what the cat dragged in.
The Raven challenge!
As it happens, Church history for the past 2,000 years shows seven distinct ages or phases of development:
1. Apostolic
2. Persecution
3. Church-State union and compromise
4. Medieval, dark ages
5. Reformation
6. Great Second Advent Reawakening
7. Mediocre “Pop Spirituality,†Nominalism, Commercialism (the Church of Today!)
We'll see as we study them how the seven churches correlate to these seven ages of Church history.
Which is interesting considering the number of God is seven. Complete. Done. Sanctified and Holy.
That brings us up to the SCROLL. In light of all the natural disasters and other tradgedies of late, this should provoke a lively conversation!
After this I had a vision of an open door 2 to heaven, and I heard the trumpetlike voice that had spoken to me before, saying, "Come up here and I will show you what must happen afterwards."
2
3 At once I was caught up in spirit. A throne was there in heaven, and on the throne sat
3
one whose appearance sparkled like jasper and carnelian. Around the throne was a halo as brilliant as an emerald.
4
Surrounding the throne I saw twenty-four other thrones on which twenty-four elders 4 sat, dressed in white garments and with gold crowns on their heads.
5
From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder. 5 Seven flaming torches burned in front of the throne, which are the seven spirits of God.
6
In front of the throne was something that resembled a sea of glass like crystal. 6 In the center and around the throne, there were four living creatures covered with eyes in front and in back.
7
The first creature resembled a lion, the second was like a calf, the third had a face like that of a human being, and the fourth looked like an eagle 7 in flight.
8
The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, 8 were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come."
9
Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to the one who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
10
the twenty-four elders fall down before the one who sits on the throne and worship him, who lives forever and ever. They throw down their crowns before the throne, exclaiming:
11
"Worthy are you, Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things; because of your will they came to be and were created."
Praise is always a good way to start, dont you think?
1. Apostolic
2. Persecution
3. Church-State union and compromise
4. Medieval, dark ages
5. Reformation
6. Great Second Advent Reawakening
7. Mediocre “Pop Spirituality,†Nominalism, Commercialism (the Church of Today!)
We'll see as we study them how the seven churches correlate to these seven ages of Church history.
Which is interesting considering the number of God is seven. Complete. Done. Sanctified and Holy.
That brings us up to the SCROLL. In light of all the natural disasters and other tradgedies of late, this should provoke a lively conversation!
After this I had a vision of an open door 2 to heaven, and I heard the trumpetlike voice that had spoken to me before, saying, "Come up here and I will show you what must happen afterwards."
2
3 At once I was caught up in spirit. A throne was there in heaven, and on the throne sat
3
one whose appearance sparkled like jasper and carnelian. Around the throne was a halo as brilliant as an emerald.
4
Surrounding the throne I saw twenty-four other thrones on which twenty-four elders 4 sat, dressed in white garments and with gold crowns on their heads.
5
From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder. 5 Seven flaming torches burned in front of the throne, which are the seven spirits of God.
6
In front of the throne was something that resembled a sea of glass like crystal. 6 In the center and around the throne, there were four living creatures covered with eyes in front and in back.
7
The first creature resembled a lion, the second was like a calf, the third had a face like that of a human being, and the fourth looked like an eagle 7 in flight.
8
The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, 8 were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come."
9
Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to the one who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
10
the twenty-four elders fall down before the one who sits on the throne and worship him, who lives forever and ever. They throw down their crowns before the throne, exclaiming:
11
"Worthy are you, Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things; because of your will they came to be and were created."
Praise is always a good way to start, dont you think?
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
The Raven challenge!
Unfortunately Paul and James were in complete disagreement concerning the nature of "Israel". For James one had to be born of a Jewish Israelite family to be considered Israel whereas Paul liked to refer to all converts as Israel.
Secondly, the following letters attributed to Paul are in fact considered to be post-Pauline by most scholars today: Ephesians, Colossians, 2Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2Timothy and Titus. These letters were written after Paul's death thus making it difficult to attribute them to Paul.
"In Search of Paul" by J. D. Crossan
"Rabbi Paul" by B. Chilton.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Secondly, the following letters attributed to Paul are in fact considered to be post-Pauline by most scholars today: Ephesians, Colossians, 2Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2Timothy and Titus. These letters were written after Paul's death thus making it difficult to attribute them to Paul.
"In Search of Paul" by J. D. Crossan
"Rabbi Paul" by B. Chilton.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Raven challenge!
I also note with interest the continued insistence on Revelation as referring to, as some would indicate, now or soon.
Men have been expecting the "Day of the Lord" since before Jesus was ever born. There have been hundreds of times throughout history when folks were absolutely certain that they were living in the last days. Among them were of course Jesus and the author of Hebrews who writes in 1:2 "but in these last days . . ."
This is most interesting in that Jesus himself told us that he didn't know and that we ought not to worry about the last days.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/y2k/bible_ca.htm
Very interesting, indeed.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Men have been expecting the "Day of the Lord" since before Jesus was ever born. There have been hundreds of times throughout history when folks were absolutely certain that they were living in the last days. Among them were of course Jesus and the author of Hebrews who writes in 1:2 "but in these last days . . ."
This is most interesting in that Jesus himself told us that he didn't know and that we ought not to worry about the last days.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/y2k/bible_ca.htm
Very interesting, indeed.
Shalom
Ted:-6
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nvalleyvee
- Posts: 5191
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:57 am
The Raven challenge!
Ted wrote: I also note with interest the continued insistence on Revelation as referring to, as some would indicate, now or soon.
Men have been expecting the "Day of the Lord" since before Jesus was ever born. There have been hundreds of times throughout history when folks were absolutely certain that they were living in the last days. Among them were of course Jesus and the author of Hebrews who writes in 1:2 "but in these last days . . ."
This is most interesting in that Jesus himself told us that he didn't know and that we ought not to worry about the last days.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/y2k/bible_ca.htm
Very interesting, indeed.
Shalom
Ted:-6
My Grandpa was very sure that Revelations was true. He carried it to such an extreme in his interpretation of the Bible that it caused great harm to his family. He personally interpreted it as a way to beat the sin out of female children since they bore the shame of mankind from Eve. We women are afterall born sinful from his interpretation of Adam and Eve - beat the sin out of women..........OM Higher Power. It was my understanding that every religious prophet has ALWAYS said - do not worship me in a church -- worship me in your heart and your soul and live accordingly. Temples and churches are man made - not god made.
Men have been expecting the "Day of the Lord" since before Jesus was ever born. There have been hundreds of times throughout history when folks were absolutely certain that they were living in the last days. Among them were of course Jesus and the author of Hebrews who writes in 1:2 "but in these last days . . ."
This is most interesting in that Jesus himself told us that he didn't know and that we ought not to worry about the last days.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/y2k/bible_ca.htm
Very interesting, indeed.
Shalom
Ted:-6
My Grandpa was very sure that Revelations was true. He carried it to such an extreme in his interpretation of the Bible that it caused great harm to his family. He personally interpreted it as a way to beat the sin out of female children since they bore the shame of mankind from Eve. We women are afterall born sinful from his interpretation of Adam and Eve - beat the sin out of women..........OM Higher Power. It was my understanding that every religious prophet has ALWAYS said - do not worship me in a church -- worship me in your heart and your soul and live accordingly. Temples and churches are man made - not god made.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
The Raven challenge!
nvallevee:-6
Your story is an unfortunate one. Paul seemed to have the same problem. In one place where he says that women are to be quiet in church and then in Galations he says that all are equal in Christ. Paul cannot have it both ways. It is either one or the other.
Don't get me wrong. I like and enjoy Paul but he was a human being and he was learning as he progressed through his life. He made many mistakes but he was also the greatest asset to the Christian faith outside of Jesus himself.
Your story is the kind of problem that crops up when one reads the sacred scriptures literally and as the inerrant word of God. Christ was the "Word made flesh". The Bible is a human production, albeit written by inspired men. However, it is neither infallible nor inerrant. That is what happens when we make the Bible into a "Paper Pope" instead of taking it for what it is, man's response to his experiences of the Divine.
Who was Paul? is an interesting question because you get different views from different Biblical writers. In Luke and Acts you get the Lukan view whereas you get a different perspective from Paul's own writings. Then you get some different views from those who wrote letters in Paul's name: as listed in an above post. Read carefully and critically the differences can be seen.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Your story is an unfortunate one. Paul seemed to have the same problem. In one place where he says that women are to be quiet in church and then in Galations he says that all are equal in Christ. Paul cannot have it both ways. It is either one or the other.
Don't get me wrong. I like and enjoy Paul but he was a human being and he was learning as he progressed through his life. He made many mistakes but he was also the greatest asset to the Christian faith outside of Jesus himself.
Your story is the kind of problem that crops up when one reads the sacred scriptures literally and as the inerrant word of God. Christ was the "Word made flesh". The Bible is a human production, albeit written by inspired men. However, it is neither infallible nor inerrant. That is what happens when we make the Bible into a "Paper Pope" instead of taking it for what it is, man's response to his experiences of the Divine.
Who was Paul? is an interesting question because you get different views from different Biblical writers. In Luke and Acts you get the Lukan view whereas you get a different perspective from Paul's own writings. Then you get some different views from those who wrote letters in Paul's name: as listed in an above post. Read carefully and critically the differences can be seen.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Raven challenge!
nvalleyvee:-6
The story of Adam and Eve is a myth. It is the ancients way of explaining their existence. It was their creation story.
Today we have a new creation story and that is the one that ought to be taught. It is called the "Big Bang" and as near as we can tell at this time it is the closest we have come to the reality. We ought to be telling children about "original grace" rather then "original sin" which is simply a non-starter and in fact gives a completely false impression about the nature of both God and man.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The story of Adam and Eve is a myth. It is the ancients way of explaining their existence. It was their creation story.
Today we have a new creation story and that is the one that ought to be taught. It is called the "Big Bang" and as near as we can tell at this time it is the closest we have come to the reality. We ought to be telling children about "original grace" rather then "original sin" which is simply a non-starter and in fact gives a completely false impression about the nature of both God and man.
Shalom
Ted:-6
-
nvalleyvee
- Posts: 5191
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:57 am
The Raven challenge!
I had a lot to think about in your last 2 posts. I was especially stunned to read your 2nd post - I love sarcasm and jousting. So now I'd like to thank you for the first of the two. I have no idea of who Paul is.............
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
The Raven challenge!
Snooze:-6
Noah and his arc is an ancient legend that was passed on by word of mouth for centuries. In Biblical studies "Legend" has a particular meaning. There is in all likelihood a small kernel of truth in the story such as a local flood on the Euphrates. Over time this story gets embellished and inhanced and the flood gets bigger and so on.
There is however some profound truths even in the legend, i.e. it points out the nature of man.
If it is not a legend then it is a myth which means it is a story created to present a truth.
Many will argue with me on this but according to the geologists there is not one shred of evidence for a world wide flood of the nature mentioned in the story. There is simply not enough water in the world to be possible. Some will say that all things are possible with God. I won't deny that but God has no need to behave in such a way.
I hope this helps.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Noah and his arc is an ancient legend that was passed on by word of mouth for centuries. In Biblical studies "Legend" has a particular meaning. There is in all likelihood a small kernel of truth in the story such as a local flood on the Euphrates. Over time this story gets embellished and inhanced and the flood gets bigger and so on.
There is however some profound truths even in the legend, i.e. it points out the nature of man.
If it is not a legend then it is a myth which means it is a story created to present a truth.
Many will argue with me on this but according to the geologists there is not one shred of evidence for a world wide flood of the nature mentioned in the story. There is simply not enough water in the world to be possible. Some will say that all things are possible with God. I won't deny that but God has no need to behave in such a way.
I hope this helps.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Raven challenge!
nvalleyvee:-6
Paul was a belated apostle of Jesus. His story is absolutely fascinating. He was a great follower of Jesus. Paul had many battles of his own to fight both within himself and with those around him. I would say that his is primarily responsible for the development of the Christian faith, next to its founder of course.
There are lots of good books out there concerning Paul. The easiest one to read is "Rabbi Paul" by Bruce Chilton, available at Chapters. An absolutely excellent read.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Paul was a belated apostle of Jesus. His story is absolutely fascinating. He was a great follower of Jesus. Paul had many battles of his own to fight both within himself and with those around him. I would say that his is primarily responsible for the development of the Christian faith, next to its founder of course.
There are lots of good books out there concerning Paul. The easiest one to read is "Rabbi Paul" by Bruce Chilton, available at Chapters. An absolutely excellent read.
Shalom
Ted:-6
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nvalleyvee
- Posts: 5191
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:57 am
The Raven challenge!
Ted wrote: Snooze:-6
Noah and his arc is an ancient legend that was passed on by word of mouth for centuries. In Biblical studies "Legend" has a particular meaning. There is in all likelihood a small kernel of truth in the story such as a local flood on the Euphrates. Over time this story gets embellished and inhanced and the flood gets bigger and so on.
There is however some profound truths even in the legend, i.e. it points out the nature of man.
If it is not a legend then it is a myth which means it is a story created to present a truth.
Many will argue with me on this but according to the geologists there is not one shred of evidence for a world wide flood of the nature mentioned in the story. There is simply not enough water in the world to be possible. Some will say that all things are possible with God. I won't deny that but God has no need to behave in such a way.
I hope this helps.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I have to say something here, as an agnostic, that area of the world did experience a flood around the time that Noah's Arc was recorded on papyrus. It was only Noah's area that flooded. There is geological proof of a huge flood.
Noah and his arc is an ancient legend that was passed on by word of mouth for centuries. In Biblical studies "Legend" has a particular meaning. There is in all likelihood a small kernel of truth in the story such as a local flood on the Euphrates. Over time this story gets embellished and inhanced and the flood gets bigger and so on.
There is however some profound truths even in the legend, i.e. it points out the nature of man.
If it is not a legend then it is a myth which means it is a story created to present a truth.
Many will argue with me on this but according to the geologists there is not one shred of evidence for a world wide flood of the nature mentioned in the story. There is simply not enough water in the world to be possible. Some will say that all things are possible with God. I won't deny that but God has no need to behave in such a way.
I hope this helps.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I have to say something here, as an agnostic, that area of the world did experience a flood around the time that Noah's Arc was recorded on papyrus. It was only Noah's area that flooded. There is geological proof of a huge flood.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
The Raven challenge!
Snooze:-6
Absolutely. It is an impossible feat and somewhat ludicrous if you consider the size of the human gene pool that would exist after such a flood. We would all be idiots by now. Oops! Who knows. LOL
Shalom
Ted:-6
Absolutely. It is an impossible feat and somewhat ludicrous if you consider the size of the human gene pool that would exist after such a flood. We would all be idiots by now. Oops! Who knows. LOL
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Raven challenge!
nvalleyvee:-6
Actuall, in the middle east you have the evidence of a flood due to the isostatic recovery of the land after the iceage glaciers melted. The Euphrates is also known to have been a river prone to major floods.
Paul a mysoginist? That is a rather debatable question. As I pointed out above in one case he says women are to be quiet in church and in another he says all are equal in Christ.
Some of his greatest supporters were women such as Priscilla and her male partner Aquila. One Phoebe was also one of his disciples.
????? perhaps not to the extent that some would believe. Nevertheless he was a human being.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Actuall, in the middle east you have the evidence of a flood due to the isostatic recovery of the land after the iceage glaciers melted. The Euphrates is also known to have been a river prone to major floods.
Paul a mysoginist? That is a rather debatable question. As I pointed out above in one case he says women are to be quiet in church and in another he says all are equal in Christ.
Some of his greatest supporters were women such as Priscilla and her male partner Aquila. One Phoebe was also one of his disciples.
????? perhaps not to the extent that some would believe. Nevertheless he was a human being.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Raven challenge!
Excuse me........we're discussing the other end of the book. Genesis is in another thread!
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
The Raven challenge!
Snooze:-6
My argument wasn't meant to convince you. As I said that is a debatable question and one to which I really don't have an answer. He was a male human being in a very patriarchal society.
Shalom
Ted:-6
My argument wasn't meant to convince you. As I said that is a debatable question and one to which I really don't have an answer. He was a male human being in a very patriarchal society.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Raven challenge!
Raven:-6
Gee, hi. I was just answering a question that I was asked. Have a nice day.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Gee, hi. I was just answering a question that I was asked. Have a nice day.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Raven challenge!
Raven:-6 :-6 :-6
If you look back a few posts you will see that it is Tel that introduced the writings of Paul, John, and even Genesis. I guess what I posted simply falls in line with his posts. Perhaps you should complain to him as well. LOL.
Shalom
Ted:-6
If you look back a few posts you will see that it is Tel that introduced the writings of Paul, John, and even Genesis. I guess what I posted simply falls in line with his posts. Perhaps you should complain to him as well. LOL.
Shalom
Ted:-6
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telaquapacky
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:00 pm
The Raven challenge!
Revelation 2:10
2 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
…and you will have tribulation ten days
This expression has been interpreted three ways. One is that ten literal days of great trouble would fall on the church at Smyrna, which certainly could have happened, though apart from this verse, we have no record of it. A second interpretation is to take the number ten as symbolic, to describe a brief period of persecution.
I believe the “ten days†of Revelation 2:10 refers symbolically to the most severe imperial persecution which occurred during a period of ten years, began by Diocletian and continued by his associate and successor Galerius. In A.D. 285 Diocletian became the absolute ruler of an empire with economic troubles, insecure borders, and an out-of-control military. He felt that the imperial government would have to take extreme and audacious measures, no matter how harsh or inhumane, to gain control and restore effective government and prosperity. Not a very sensitive guy. Anyone granted an audience with Diocletian would have to prostrate themselves on the floor before him. Under Diocletian, as with other Roman emperors, the cult of worshipping the empire and it’s fearless leader was the state religion- a test of patriotism and allegiance (Grrr! Review my comments on church and state in post #26). The Christians, failing this test, were made a cruel example. The Scriptures were burned and church buildings confiscated or demolished. The clergy were attacked first, on the assumption that striking the shepherds would scatter the flock. Years after the persecution, some of the church leaders who showed up at the council of Nicaea (A.D. 325) were without eyes, some without arms, which had been pulled from their sockets, others with their bodies horribly maimed in different ways. Many others did not survive their torments. This persecution, along with Trajan’s policy I described in post #47, was ended by the edict by Constantine in 313 which granted Christians and all others liberty to practice their religion.
The Day-year Principle
I believe that the “ten days†in Revelation 2:10 was symbolic for ten literal years, and that this is an example of the day-year principle. The day-year principle is one of the most powerful tools of Historicist interpretation of prophecy, and it is how I understand some (not all) time prophecies used both in Daniel and Revelation. This principle was recognized by great interpreters of Bible Prophecy, including John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, Philip Melanchthon, and Sir Isaac Newton.
The day-year principle is a way prophetic time can be decoded into literal time. In some (not all) Bible prophecies, a day equals a year. The background for the day-year principle, and some examples are found in the Old Testament:
40 Years Wandering Because Of 40 Days Faithless Spying
In Numbers, chapter 14, the Hebrew spies surveyed the land of Canaan for forty days and brought back a faithless report that discouraged the people from grasping God’s promise. Their faithlessness displeased God so much that He doomed them to 40 more years of wandering in the wilderness, one year of wandering for each day the spies spent spying the land (Numbers14:34).
Ezekiel Lies On His Side For 430 Days Because Of 430 Years Of Hebrew Unfaithfulness
The Lord sometimes instructed prophets to do something like “performance art†to communicate to the people in a wacky enough way to get their attention. In Ezekiel chapter 4, He tells Ezekiel to perform a strange pantomime as a sign to the people that Jerusalem would be besieged and conquered by Babylon because of the apostasy of the divided kingdom and it’s people. The 430 days consisted of 390 days for 390 years of Israel’s sin (roughly from the secession of the northern kingdom to the Babylonian captivity), plus 40 years of Judah’s sin (evidently Judah had remained faithful for a time, but eventually apostatized as well). Ezekiel had to lie on one side for 390 days, and on the other side for 40 days. Either he only had to do it during business hours and could go home afterward, or he must have been mighty sore!
Daniel’s “Seventy Weeks†Prophecy
Daniel 9:24-27 has one of the snazziest time prophecies in the Bible, which I regard as the “Rosetta Stone†of day-year prophetic time interpretation.
Daniel 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.
One of the caveats critics have about the day-year principle is that sometimes “years†really does mean “years,†and the day-year principle doesn’t apply in every prophetic time period. You could be accused of using the principle only when it works out the way you like it, and not using it when it doesn’t. Well, one way you can know objectively that the day-year principle is in view is when the event prophesied did not happen in the number of days given, but did happen in the same number of years.
Daniel 9:25
25 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.
We know that all the events described in verse 24 did not happen in seventy literal weeks- less than a year and a half- because verse 25 gives the starting point, 457 B.C. That was when Cyrus’ command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem went out. (actually there were three such decrees, but the one that counts is the one of autumn 457- it had teeth in it) And it says that the coming of Messiah comes within “seventy weeks†after that decree. If you took “seventy weeks†to mean seventy literal weeks, or 490 days, Messiah would have had to come in the spring of 455 B.C. Of course, that didn’t happen. But if you apply the Day-year Principle, the 490 days (70 weeks) becomes 490 literal years. Let’s apply the day-year principle to the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel and see what happens:
Daniel 9:26,27
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. the end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.â€
That gets pretty complicated, but let’s sort it out:
The starting point is the autumn of 537.
Next you have seven weeks. That’s 49 days. Let’s say 49 years. That gives enough time for the streets and the wall to be completed “even in troublous times.†That takes us to the autumn of 408 B.C.
Next you have sixty two weeks, after which the Messiah would come, and later be cut off. Sixty two weeks is 434 days. Let’s say 434 years. That takes us to the autumn of A.D. 27 (Now, wait a minute. If you add 434 to minus 408, that gives 26. Why do I say A.D. 27? If you use a calculator, you find that there is a zero between the negative and positive numbers. We’re talking about years here, not integers. Use a calendar, and you’ll find there is no “Year Zero.†In fact, if you go 434 years forward from 408 B.C., you arrive at A.D. 27 because on the way you pass the year 1 B.C. followed immediately by the year A.D. 1, with no “year zero†in between)
Now, what happened in the autumn of A.D. 27? Lots of stuff. It was the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar--when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene-- during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas…
And Luke 3:1 tells us that’s when “the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert.†And John went out preaching and baptizing people. Who did he baptize that year? A carpenter’s son named Y’shua from Nazareth, whom we call Jesus. A.D. 27 was when Jesus’ public ministry began- the coming of the Messiah. By the Day-year principle, Jesus was right on time!
Now, we’ve only dealt with 69 of those seventy weeks. What happens in the last week? It says, “in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.†The middle of a week of seven years is three and a half years. Three and a half years from the beginning of Jesus’ public ministry, He put an end of sacrifice and offering by the offering of Himself on the cross of Calvary. From autumn A.D. 27 you go three and a half years to spring, that is, easter time, A.D. 31, when, according to Daniel 9:26, “Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.†Jesus did not die for His sins, because He never sinned. He died not for Himself, but for the sins of you and I. By the day-year principle, the cross was also right on time!
At the end of the seventy weeks was the year A.D. 34. We don’t have any historical records for what happened that year. But Daniel 9:24 says that it was the end of the time “Determined for your people and your holy city.†That was the end of the time that Israel in prophecy meant literal Israel, and the beginning of the time when Israel meant Spiritual Israel (see my post #46 on this thread). It was when the disciples had won almost all the Jews to Christ that they were going to in Jerusalem, and were getting fed up with the stiff-necked resistance of the rest, and started to say, "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles†(Acts 13:46). It was the end of the time determined for literal Israel to be God’s exclusive instruments for carrying His truth of salvation to the world. Now Christians, both Jew and Gentile, would be the Israel of God, the chosen people- holy priesthood- the kingdom of God on this earth (1 Peter 2:9). The Jews would never again be the chosen people of God, but His house would be a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:7).
Here is another chart, a time line of the events in Daniel’s seventy week prophecy.
If this chart disappears, PM me and I'll post another or PM you a copy.
(more to follow in next post)
2 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
…and you will have tribulation ten days
This expression has been interpreted three ways. One is that ten literal days of great trouble would fall on the church at Smyrna, which certainly could have happened, though apart from this verse, we have no record of it. A second interpretation is to take the number ten as symbolic, to describe a brief period of persecution.
I believe the “ten days†of Revelation 2:10 refers symbolically to the most severe imperial persecution which occurred during a period of ten years, began by Diocletian and continued by his associate and successor Galerius. In A.D. 285 Diocletian became the absolute ruler of an empire with economic troubles, insecure borders, and an out-of-control military. He felt that the imperial government would have to take extreme and audacious measures, no matter how harsh or inhumane, to gain control and restore effective government and prosperity. Not a very sensitive guy. Anyone granted an audience with Diocletian would have to prostrate themselves on the floor before him. Under Diocletian, as with other Roman emperors, the cult of worshipping the empire and it’s fearless leader was the state religion- a test of patriotism and allegiance (Grrr! Review my comments on church and state in post #26). The Christians, failing this test, were made a cruel example. The Scriptures were burned and church buildings confiscated or demolished. The clergy were attacked first, on the assumption that striking the shepherds would scatter the flock. Years after the persecution, some of the church leaders who showed up at the council of Nicaea (A.D. 325) were without eyes, some without arms, which had been pulled from their sockets, others with their bodies horribly maimed in different ways. Many others did not survive their torments. This persecution, along with Trajan’s policy I described in post #47, was ended by the edict by Constantine in 313 which granted Christians and all others liberty to practice their religion.
The Day-year Principle
I believe that the “ten days†in Revelation 2:10 was symbolic for ten literal years, and that this is an example of the day-year principle. The day-year principle is one of the most powerful tools of Historicist interpretation of prophecy, and it is how I understand some (not all) time prophecies used both in Daniel and Revelation. This principle was recognized by great interpreters of Bible Prophecy, including John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, Philip Melanchthon, and Sir Isaac Newton.
The day-year principle is a way prophetic time can be decoded into literal time. In some (not all) Bible prophecies, a day equals a year. The background for the day-year principle, and some examples are found in the Old Testament:
40 Years Wandering Because Of 40 Days Faithless Spying
In Numbers, chapter 14, the Hebrew spies surveyed the land of Canaan for forty days and brought back a faithless report that discouraged the people from grasping God’s promise. Their faithlessness displeased God so much that He doomed them to 40 more years of wandering in the wilderness, one year of wandering for each day the spies spent spying the land (Numbers14:34).
Ezekiel Lies On His Side For 430 Days Because Of 430 Years Of Hebrew Unfaithfulness
The Lord sometimes instructed prophets to do something like “performance art†to communicate to the people in a wacky enough way to get their attention. In Ezekiel chapter 4, He tells Ezekiel to perform a strange pantomime as a sign to the people that Jerusalem would be besieged and conquered by Babylon because of the apostasy of the divided kingdom and it’s people. The 430 days consisted of 390 days for 390 years of Israel’s sin (roughly from the secession of the northern kingdom to the Babylonian captivity), plus 40 years of Judah’s sin (evidently Judah had remained faithful for a time, but eventually apostatized as well). Ezekiel had to lie on one side for 390 days, and on the other side for 40 days. Either he only had to do it during business hours and could go home afterward, or he must have been mighty sore!
Daniel’s “Seventy Weeks†Prophecy
Daniel 9:24-27 has one of the snazziest time prophecies in the Bible, which I regard as the “Rosetta Stone†of day-year prophetic time interpretation.
Daniel 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.
One of the caveats critics have about the day-year principle is that sometimes “years†really does mean “years,†and the day-year principle doesn’t apply in every prophetic time period. You could be accused of using the principle only when it works out the way you like it, and not using it when it doesn’t. Well, one way you can know objectively that the day-year principle is in view is when the event prophesied did not happen in the number of days given, but did happen in the same number of years.
Daniel 9:25
25 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.
We know that all the events described in verse 24 did not happen in seventy literal weeks- less than a year and a half- because verse 25 gives the starting point, 457 B.C. That was when Cyrus’ command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem went out. (actually there were three such decrees, but the one that counts is the one of autumn 457- it had teeth in it) And it says that the coming of Messiah comes within “seventy weeks†after that decree. If you took “seventy weeks†to mean seventy literal weeks, or 490 days, Messiah would have had to come in the spring of 455 B.C. Of course, that didn’t happen. But if you apply the Day-year Principle, the 490 days (70 weeks) becomes 490 literal years. Let’s apply the day-year principle to the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel and see what happens:
Daniel 9:26,27
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. the end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.â€
That gets pretty complicated, but let’s sort it out:
The starting point is the autumn of 537.
Next you have seven weeks. That’s 49 days. Let’s say 49 years. That gives enough time for the streets and the wall to be completed “even in troublous times.†That takes us to the autumn of 408 B.C.
Next you have sixty two weeks, after which the Messiah would come, and later be cut off. Sixty two weeks is 434 days. Let’s say 434 years. That takes us to the autumn of A.D. 27 (Now, wait a minute. If you add 434 to minus 408, that gives 26. Why do I say A.D. 27? If you use a calculator, you find that there is a zero between the negative and positive numbers. We’re talking about years here, not integers. Use a calendar, and you’ll find there is no “Year Zero.†In fact, if you go 434 years forward from 408 B.C., you arrive at A.D. 27 because on the way you pass the year 1 B.C. followed immediately by the year A.D. 1, with no “year zero†in between)
Now, what happened in the autumn of A.D. 27? Lots of stuff. It was the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar--when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene-- during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas…
And Luke 3:1 tells us that’s when “the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert.†And John went out preaching and baptizing people. Who did he baptize that year? A carpenter’s son named Y’shua from Nazareth, whom we call Jesus. A.D. 27 was when Jesus’ public ministry began- the coming of the Messiah. By the Day-year principle, Jesus was right on time!
Now, we’ve only dealt with 69 of those seventy weeks. What happens in the last week? It says, “in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.†The middle of a week of seven years is three and a half years. Three and a half years from the beginning of Jesus’ public ministry, He put an end of sacrifice and offering by the offering of Himself on the cross of Calvary. From autumn A.D. 27 you go three and a half years to spring, that is, easter time, A.D. 31, when, according to Daniel 9:26, “Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.†Jesus did not die for His sins, because He never sinned. He died not for Himself, but for the sins of you and I. By the day-year principle, the cross was also right on time!
At the end of the seventy weeks was the year A.D. 34. We don’t have any historical records for what happened that year. But Daniel 9:24 says that it was the end of the time “Determined for your people and your holy city.†That was the end of the time that Israel in prophecy meant literal Israel, and the beginning of the time when Israel meant Spiritual Israel (see my post #46 on this thread). It was when the disciples had won almost all the Jews to Christ that they were going to in Jerusalem, and were getting fed up with the stiff-necked resistance of the rest, and started to say, "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles†(Acts 13:46). It was the end of the time determined for literal Israel to be God’s exclusive instruments for carrying His truth of salvation to the world. Now Christians, both Jew and Gentile, would be the Israel of God, the chosen people- holy priesthood- the kingdom of God on this earth (1 Peter 2:9). The Jews would never again be the chosen people of God, but His house would be a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:7).
Here is another chart, a time line of the events in Daniel’s seventy week prophecy.
If this chart disappears, PM me and I'll post another or PM you a copy.
(more to follow in next post)
Look what the cat dragged in.
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telaquapacky
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:00 pm
The Raven challenge!
(Continued from last post)
The Abomination That Causes Desolation
You may have noticed that I haven’t said anything about the people of the prince who is to come from Daniel 9:26. We only know two things about them: One is that they would destroy the city and the sanctuary. Who destroyed the city and the sanctuary? Roman armies besieged Jerusalem and destroyed both the city and Herod’s temple in A.D. 70. So who is this prince who was to come? He is a Roman ruler. What confuses us is that Daniel 9:27 is a little ambiguous. Sometimes prophecy does that- especially in the later part of Daniel (Try Daniel 11!). It may say “he†in one sentence referring to a certain person at a certain time, and in the next sentence, “he†may mean someone else, and at a later time. Even Jesus’ prophetic discourse on the Mount of Olives in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 jumps between the near future and distant future from one sentence to another. So in Daniel 9:27, to know who is being talked about, you have to look at it phrase by phrase:
Daniel 9:27
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.â€
Who confirms the covenant, Jesus, or this other prince, whose people destroy the city and the sanctuary? I believe Jesus’ ministry confirmed the covenant God originally made with the Jews- not what is called the “Old Covenant,†but the real covenant, called the “covenant of love†(Deuteronomy 7:9,12; 1 Kings 8:23, 2 Chronicles 6:14; Nehemiah 1:5, 9:32 and Daniel 9:4). His ministry was continued by his disciples for the remaining three and a half years. Who brings an end to sacrifice and offering? That would be Jesus by the offering of Himself, which ended the Mosaic-Aaronic priestly economy. Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38 and Luke 23:45 tell us that at the moment Jesus died on the cross, the veil in the temple that protected the sanctity of the most holy place was torn in two from top to bottom by an unseen hand. In another sense, a Roman prince did bring an end to sacrifice and offering by destroying Jerusalem and the temple, but that was much later, in A.D. 70- it doesn’t fit into the “middle of the week.†And nothing about abominations or desolations could apply to Jesus, so it must apply to the Roman prince. The story of the abomination that causes desolation isn’t mentioned in Revelation. But Jesus referred to it in His prophetic discourse on Olivet, and it’s too interesting not to spend some time on it while Daniel chapter 9 has us in the mood.
How Prophecy Saved Christians From the Destruction of Jerusalem
When Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in A.D. 70 it was an unspeakably horrible event. The starvation caused by the siege made people eat their children. The Romans crucified the citizens who tried to escape, and it was said that the surrounding hills of the city were so thick with crosses that it was hard to pass through. Others were taken captive and made slaves. Inside the city was a general slaughter.The steps of the temple ran with blood. Yet all the Christians escaped- not one was harmed because they had all left the city. They had heeded Jesus’ warning:
Matthew 24:15-21
15 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.
What did they see? What was the abomination that causes desolation in Matthew 24:15, and the “abominations†associated with “one who makes desolate†in Daniel 9:27? To find out, let’s look at another verse where Jesus says the same thing but in different words.
Luke 21:20-23
20 When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.
Notice the parallel in Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:20 between “the abomination that causes desolation†and “Jerusalem surrounded by armies.†They are one in the same. The Roman soldiers carried with them their regimental standards. The Roman standard was not merely a military banner, it was an idol which the soldiers worshipped in hopes that their gods would grant them victory. Being an idolatrous image, it was an abomination. As a standard of the Roman Army, it was an abomination that brought desolation and destruction with it. Here’s a picture of one:
(If you don’t see it, search Google images and type in “Roman Standard-“ you’ll see one)
There was a prelude to the destruction of Jerusalem of A.D. 70. In A.D. 66, Cestius Gallus, an inexperienced general had advanced on Jerusalem to put down a rebellion of the Jews. The Christians, who were acquainted with Jesus’ words, looked out from the city walls and saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, and saw these Roman standards sprouting up like asparagus all around. When they saw that abomination that causes desolation stand on holy ground, which extended some distance from the city, they knew it was time to scram. But how could they get out of a city surrounded by the Roman Army? The Romans under Cestius had surrounded Jerusalem and had begun a siege. They were about to undermine the wall and set fire to the gate of the temple. Then, for no apparent reason, Cestius suddenly called off the siege and withdrew his forces! Seizing this opportunity, the Christians fled to Pella, a city in the foothills east of the Jordan River, about 17 miles south of the Lake of Galilee. Cestius’ forces retreated in a different direction toward Gibeon, chased by the Jewish rebels. The Jews took advantage of the Romans’ retreat and some tactical blunders by Cestius to inflict significant casualties on them. This only served to really tick off the Romans, who returned under the very capable Titus in A.D. 70 and plowed Jerusalem like a field. The arch of Titus, which stands in Rome near the Coliseum, celebrates this victory. There is nothing about that event that makes me happy, and don’t anybody say I enjoy their suffering. But they did say when they called for Jesus to be crucified, “Let his blood be on us and on our children†(Matthew 27:25), and Jesus did say to them earlier in the week, “Look, your house is left to you desolate.†(Matthew 23:38) The condition of Judaism was that the outward forms of the religion continued, but it's efficacy for salvation had been obliterated. The coming of an abomination that makes desolate only confirmed a desolation that had already been in effect for 39 years.
What Does This Mean to Me?
On the Mount of Olives, Jesus sat with His disciples, and they asked Him what prophetic signs would tell when the temple was going to be destroyed, when He was going to return, and when the world would end. They did not know what they were asking. The temple was so dear to them and, so dear to God, so they thought, that it certainly would stand until the end of time. Jesus was merciful. He knew that if He told them it would be at least another 2,000 years before He came, this would be more than they could bear. So Jesus mingled together prophecies of events that would happen in the lifetimes of some of them, with events that would happen in your lifetime and mine. It is believed that some prophecies have more than one fulfillment. In the case of “Jerusalem surrounded by armies†and the “abomination that causes desolation,†many of us believe that they were a warning not only to Christians in Jerusalem in A.D. 66, but to us living today.
Now, I do not mean that you need to run to the hills when you read in the papers or see on the news that the literal city of Jerusalem in Israel is surrounded by armies. That may never happen again. Remember what I said in post 46 about spiritual Israel. I believe that “Jerusalem†in prophecy now means the true Church- the believers in Jesus Christ. Revelation 21:2 says that Jerusalem is adorned like a bride. And Ephesians 5:31,32 uses the bride of Christ as a metaphor for the Church. All it would take is for the Church to be attacked and threatened by destruction by powerful enemies. And the “abomination that causes desolation,†could be a wrong form of worship enforced by law, so that if you disobey, you could be destroyed. Revelation 13:15-18 talks about the mark of the beast. That could very well be another fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy of Matthew 24:15-21 and Luke 21:20-23. Read the third chapter of Daniel, for an event parallel to the mark of the beast.
Now, I also do not mean that the Church is any particular denomination. The True body of Christ includes Christians who are scattered throughout all the denominations. They are the people who are the truest of the true. It’s important not to associate the True Church with any particular denomination. For one thing, any denomination that claims to own the patent on God’s grace and salvation, and claims that you have to be a member in good standing in their denomination to be saved- isn’t at all what they claim to be, and may be the exact opposite. The other reason to call any denomination the True Church is because I believe prophecy indicates that most of the organized Christian churches will fall under the control of the antichrist.
2 Thessalonians 2:3,4
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
1 Corinthians 3:16
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?
I believe that the antichrist will make himself the ruler of the worldwide Christian church. And I believe that the vast majority of the people will be persuaded by him.
Revelation 13:3
One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.
When that happens, in effect, Jerusalem will be surrounded by her enemies. In that day, Jesus says to flee to the mountains. Not all of us will be able to escape this way. But Christ offers us the same promise that He offered to the church at Smyrna:
Revelation 2:10
10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
930
The Abomination That Causes Desolation
You may have noticed that I haven’t said anything about the people of the prince who is to come from Daniel 9:26. We only know two things about them: One is that they would destroy the city and the sanctuary. Who destroyed the city and the sanctuary? Roman armies besieged Jerusalem and destroyed both the city and Herod’s temple in A.D. 70. So who is this prince who was to come? He is a Roman ruler. What confuses us is that Daniel 9:27 is a little ambiguous. Sometimes prophecy does that- especially in the later part of Daniel (Try Daniel 11!). It may say “he†in one sentence referring to a certain person at a certain time, and in the next sentence, “he†may mean someone else, and at a later time. Even Jesus’ prophetic discourse on the Mount of Olives in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 jumps between the near future and distant future from one sentence to another. So in Daniel 9:27, to know who is being talked about, you have to look at it phrase by phrase:
Daniel 9:27
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.â€
Who confirms the covenant, Jesus, or this other prince, whose people destroy the city and the sanctuary? I believe Jesus’ ministry confirmed the covenant God originally made with the Jews- not what is called the “Old Covenant,†but the real covenant, called the “covenant of love†(Deuteronomy 7:9,12; 1 Kings 8:23, 2 Chronicles 6:14; Nehemiah 1:5, 9:32 and Daniel 9:4). His ministry was continued by his disciples for the remaining three and a half years. Who brings an end to sacrifice and offering? That would be Jesus by the offering of Himself, which ended the Mosaic-Aaronic priestly economy. Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38 and Luke 23:45 tell us that at the moment Jesus died on the cross, the veil in the temple that protected the sanctity of the most holy place was torn in two from top to bottom by an unseen hand. In another sense, a Roman prince did bring an end to sacrifice and offering by destroying Jerusalem and the temple, but that was much later, in A.D. 70- it doesn’t fit into the “middle of the week.†And nothing about abominations or desolations could apply to Jesus, so it must apply to the Roman prince. The story of the abomination that causes desolation isn’t mentioned in Revelation. But Jesus referred to it in His prophetic discourse on Olivet, and it’s too interesting not to spend some time on it while Daniel chapter 9 has us in the mood.
How Prophecy Saved Christians From the Destruction of Jerusalem
When Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in A.D. 70 it was an unspeakably horrible event. The starvation caused by the siege made people eat their children. The Romans crucified the citizens who tried to escape, and it was said that the surrounding hills of the city were so thick with crosses that it was hard to pass through. Others were taken captive and made slaves. Inside the city was a general slaughter.The steps of the temple ran with blood. Yet all the Christians escaped- not one was harmed because they had all left the city. They had heeded Jesus’ warning:
Matthew 24:15-21
15 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.
What did they see? What was the abomination that causes desolation in Matthew 24:15, and the “abominations†associated with “one who makes desolate†in Daniel 9:27? To find out, let’s look at another verse where Jesus says the same thing but in different words.
Luke 21:20-23
20 When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.
Notice the parallel in Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:20 between “the abomination that causes desolation†and “Jerusalem surrounded by armies.†They are one in the same. The Roman soldiers carried with them their regimental standards. The Roman standard was not merely a military banner, it was an idol which the soldiers worshipped in hopes that their gods would grant them victory. Being an idolatrous image, it was an abomination. As a standard of the Roman Army, it was an abomination that brought desolation and destruction with it. Here’s a picture of one:
(If you don’t see it, search Google images and type in “Roman Standard-“ you’ll see one)
There was a prelude to the destruction of Jerusalem of A.D. 70. In A.D. 66, Cestius Gallus, an inexperienced general had advanced on Jerusalem to put down a rebellion of the Jews. The Christians, who were acquainted with Jesus’ words, looked out from the city walls and saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, and saw these Roman standards sprouting up like asparagus all around. When they saw that abomination that causes desolation stand on holy ground, which extended some distance from the city, they knew it was time to scram. But how could they get out of a city surrounded by the Roman Army? The Romans under Cestius had surrounded Jerusalem and had begun a siege. They were about to undermine the wall and set fire to the gate of the temple. Then, for no apparent reason, Cestius suddenly called off the siege and withdrew his forces! Seizing this opportunity, the Christians fled to Pella, a city in the foothills east of the Jordan River, about 17 miles south of the Lake of Galilee. Cestius’ forces retreated in a different direction toward Gibeon, chased by the Jewish rebels. The Jews took advantage of the Romans’ retreat and some tactical blunders by Cestius to inflict significant casualties on them. This only served to really tick off the Romans, who returned under the very capable Titus in A.D. 70 and plowed Jerusalem like a field. The arch of Titus, which stands in Rome near the Coliseum, celebrates this victory. There is nothing about that event that makes me happy, and don’t anybody say I enjoy their suffering. But they did say when they called for Jesus to be crucified, “Let his blood be on us and on our children†(Matthew 27:25), and Jesus did say to them earlier in the week, “Look, your house is left to you desolate.†(Matthew 23:38) The condition of Judaism was that the outward forms of the religion continued, but it's efficacy for salvation had been obliterated. The coming of an abomination that makes desolate only confirmed a desolation that had already been in effect for 39 years.
What Does This Mean to Me?
On the Mount of Olives, Jesus sat with His disciples, and they asked Him what prophetic signs would tell when the temple was going to be destroyed, when He was going to return, and when the world would end. They did not know what they were asking. The temple was so dear to them and, so dear to God, so they thought, that it certainly would stand until the end of time. Jesus was merciful. He knew that if He told them it would be at least another 2,000 years before He came, this would be more than they could bear. So Jesus mingled together prophecies of events that would happen in the lifetimes of some of them, with events that would happen in your lifetime and mine. It is believed that some prophecies have more than one fulfillment. In the case of “Jerusalem surrounded by armies†and the “abomination that causes desolation,†many of us believe that they were a warning not only to Christians in Jerusalem in A.D. 66, but to us living today.
Now, I do not mean that you need to run to the hills when you read in the papers or see on the news that the literal city of Jerusalem in Israel is surrounded by armies. That may never happen again. Remember what I said in post 46 about spiritual Israel. I believe that “Jerusalem†in prophecy now means the true Church- the believers in Jesus Christ. Revelation 21:2 says that Jerusalem is adorned like a bride. And Ephesians 5:31,32 uses the bride of Christ as a metaphor for the Church. All it would take is for the Church to be attacked and threatened by destruction by powerful enemies. And the “abomination that causes desolation,†could be a wrong form of worship enforced by law, so that if you disobey, you could be destroyed. Revelation 13:15-18 talks about the mark of the beast. That could very well be another fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy of Matthew 24:15-21 and Luke 21:20-23. Read the third chapter of Daniel, for an event parallel to the mark of the beast.
Now, I also do not mean that the Church is any particular denomination. The True body of Christ includes Christians who are scattered throughout all the denominations. They are the people who are the truest of the true. It’s important not to associate the True Church with any particular denomination. For one thing, any denomination that claims to own the patent on God’s grace and salvation, and claims that you have to be a member in good standing in their denomination to be saved- isn’t at all what they claim to be, and may be the exact opposite. The other reason to call any denomination the True Church is because I believe prophecy indicates that most of the organized Christian churches will fall under the control of the antichrist.
2 Thessalonians 2:3,4
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
1 Corinthians 3:16
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?
I believe that the antichrist will make himself the ruler of the worldwide Christian church. And I believe that the vast majority of the people will be persuaded by him.
Revelation 13:3
One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.
When that happens, in effect, Jerusalem will be surrounded by her enemies. In that day, Jesus says to flee to the mountains. Not all of us will be able to escape this way. But Christ offers us the same promise that He offered to the church at Smyrna:
Revelation 2:10
10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
930
Look what the cat dragged in.
The Raven challenge!
This expression has been interpreted three ways. One is that ten literal days of great trouble would fall on the church at Smyrna, which certainly could have happened, though apart from this verse, we have no record of it. A second interpretation is to take the number ten as symbolic, to describe a brief period of persecution.
I have found that the scriptures interpret themselves. I too believe all the examples that were given us in the old testament can be applied to the new.
The Abomination That Causes Desolation
You may have noticed that I haven’t said anything about the people of the prince who is to come from Daniel 9:26. We only know two things about them: One is that they would destroy the city and the sanctuary. Who destroyed the city and the sanctuary? Roman armies besieged Jerusalem and destroyed both the city and Herod’s temple in A.D. 70. So who is this prince who was to come? He is a Roman ruler. What confuses us is that Daniel 9:27 is a little ambiguous. Sometimes prophecy does that- especially in the later part of Daniel (Try Daniel 11!). It may say “he†in one sentence referring to a certain person at a certain time, and in the next sentence, “he†may mean someone else, and at a later time. Even Jesus’ prophetic discourse on the Mount of Olives in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 jumps between the near future and distant future from one sentence to another. So in Daniel 9:27, to know who is being talked about, you have to look at it phrase by phrase:
Even Christ himself, in reading the scriptures in the synagogue at the beginning of His ministry stopped mid-sentence. The last half hasnt come to pass yet.
Also you have to look at who is besieging Jerusalem today. And Israel is quickly becoming a 'walled city'. As for the temple mount, well it has well and truly been defiled. And something else has been set up in place of God to be worshipped there.
Notice the parallel in Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:20 between “the abomination that causes desolation†and “Jerusalem surrounded by armies.†They are one in the same. The Roman soldiers carried with them their regimental standards. The Roman standard was not merely a military banner, it was an idol which the soldiers worshipped in hopes that their gods would grant them victory. Being an idolatrous image, it was an abomination. As a standard of the Roman Army, it was an abomination that brought desolation and destruction with it. Here’s a picture of one:
Now I'm going to get a bit controversial here. Where else have you seen this standard? Not just Rome! Nazi Germany used almost the EXACT same standard! And they too excercised a holocaust against the Jews. All in the name of God, of course. Now there is another who goes forth to proclaim a 'pax romana' in the name of God. But the name of THIS God isnt Yawheh. It's democracy. Look at the presidential seal of the United States. Being an american myself, I can only wonder at the similarities. And what about this 'road map' for peace in Israel? Totally smacks of what Isaiah prophesied! "We have made a covenant with death and with hell we are in agreement." I fear this too will end with a holacaust of the Jews.
I know I'm jumping ahead a bit, but you started it! LOL!
Now as for the tents of the 'North' being spread across waters, well what is happening now? Who has their tents spread all over the place? The way things look at this point, the US is gearing up to tackle all the countries that prophesy says will fall to the 'north'. What say you on this?
Now, I do not mean that you need to run to the hills when you read in the papers or see on the news that the literal city of Jerusalem in Israel is surrounded by armies. That may never happen again. Remember what I said in post 46 about spiritual Israel. I believe that “Jerusalem†in prophecy now means the true Church- the believers in Jesus Christ. Revelation 21:2 says that Jerusalem is adorned like a bride. And Ephesians 5:31,32 uses the bride of Christ as a metaphor for the Church. All it would take is for the Church to be attacked and threatened by destruction by powerful enemies. And the “abomination that causes desolation,†could be a wrong form of worship enforced by law, so that if you disobey, you could be destroyed. Revelation 13:15-18 talks about the mark of the beast. That could very well be another fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy of Matthew 24:15-21 and Luke 21:20-23. Read the third chapter of Daniel, for an event parallel to the mark of the beast.
I personally think that it will. ESPECIALLY in light of current events in Israel today. What will happen if Arab countries like Iran really DO try to besiege Israel? The US and company will HAVE to defend! For the first time in history, ALLTHE EVENTS IN PROPHESY CAN COME TRUE! ALL OF THEM!
I dont think the folks that wrote these things down were just telling us bedtime stories to make us behave like good children!:wah:
I have found that the scriptures interpret themselves. I too believe all the examples that were given us in the old testament can be applied to the new.
The Abomination That Causes Desolation
You may have noticed that I haven’t said anything about the people of the prince who is to come from Daniel 9:26. We only know two things about them: One is that they would destroy the city and the sanctuary. Who destroyed the city and the sanctuary? Roman armies besieged Jerusalem and destroyed both the city and Herod’s temple in A.D. 70. So who is this prince who was to come? He is a Roman ruler. What confuses us is that Daniel 9:27 is a little ambiguous. Sometimes prophecy does that- especially in the later part of Daniel (Try Daniel 11!). It may say “he†in one sentence referring to a certain person at a certain time, and in the next sentence, “he†may mean someone else, and at a later time. Even Jesus’ prophetic discourse on the Mount of Olives in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 jumps between the near future and distant future from one sentence to another. So in Daniel 9:27, to know who is being talked about, you have to look at it phrase by phrase:
Even Christ himself, in reading the scriptures in the synagogue at the beginning of His ministry stopped mid-sentence. The last half hasnt come to pass yet.
Also you have to look at who is besieging Jerusalem today. And Israel is quickly becoming a 'walled city'. As for the temple mount, well it has well and truly been defiled. And something else has been set up in place of God to be worshipped there.
Notice the parallel in Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:20 between “the abomination that causes desolation†and “Jerusalem surrounded by armies.†They are one in the same. The Roman soldiers carried with them their regimental standards. The Roman standard was not merely a military banner, it was an idol which the soldiers worshipped in hopes that their gods would grant them victory. Being an idolatrous image, it was an abomination. As a standard of the Roman Army, it was an abomination that brought desolation and destruction with it. Here’s a picture of one:
Now I'm going to get a bit controversial here. Where else have you seen this standard? Not just Rome! Nazi Germany used almost the EXACT same standard! And they too excercised a holocaust against the Jews. All in the name of God, of course. Now there is another who goes forth to proclaim a 'pax romana' in the name of God. But the name of THIS God isnt Yawheh. It's democracy. Look at the presidential seal of the United States. Being an american myself, I can only wonder at the similarities. And what about this 'road map' for peace in Israel? Totally smacks of what Isaiah prophesied! "We have made a covenant with death and with hell we are in agreement." I fear this too will end with a holacaust of the Jews.
I know I'm jumping ahead a bit, but you started it! LOL!
Now as for the tents of the 'North' being spread across waters, well what is happening now? Who has their tents spread all over the place? The way things look at this point, the US is gearing up to tackle all the countries that prophesy says will fall to the 'north'. What say you on this?
Now, I do not mean that you need to run to the hills when you read in the papers or see on the news that the literal city of Jerusalem in Israel is surrounded by armies. That may never happen again. Remember what I said in post 46 about spiritual Israel. I believe that “Jerusalem†in prophecy now means the true Church- the believers in Jesus Christ. Revelation 21:2 says that Jerusalem is adorned like a bride. And Ephesians 5:31,32 uses the bride of Christ as a metaphor for the Church. All it would take is for the Church to be attacked and threatened by destruction by powerful enemies. And the “abomination that causes desolation,†could be a wrong form of worship enforced by law, so that if you disobey, you could be destroyed. Revelation 13:15-18 talks about the mark of the beast. That could very well be another fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy of Matthew 24:15-21 and Luke 21:20-23. Read the third chapter of Daniel, for an event parallel to the mark of the beast.
I personally think that it will. ESPECIALLY in light of current events in Israel today. What will happen if Arab countries like Iran really DO try to besiege Israel? The US and company will HAVE to defend! For the first time in history, ALLTHE EVENTS IN PROPHESY CAN COME TRUE! ALL OF THEM!
I dont think the folks that wrote these things down were just telling us bedtime stories to make us behave like good children!:wah:
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
-
telaquapacky
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:00 pm
The Raven challenge!
Raven wrote: Even Christ himself, in reading the scriptures in the synagogue at the beginning of His ministry stopped mid-sentence. The last half hasnt come to pass yet.Are you talking about the verses in Isaiah 61 that follow the ones Christ quoted?
Isaiah 61:3-6
3 …and provide for those who grieve in Zion-- to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair. They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the LORD for the display of his splendor. 4 They will rebuild the ancient ruins and restore the places long devastated; they will renew the ruined cities that have been devastated for generations. 5 Aliens will shepherd your flocks; foreigners will work your fields and vineyards. 6 And you will be called priests of the LORD, you will be named ministers of our God. You will feed on the wealth of nations, and in their riches you will boast.
I don't believe those verses will ever come to pass for national Israel. They were a conditional prophecy of what might have been. Israel lost it’s way, disobeyed and disqualified itself from the prize. When Daniel’s seventy weeks expired in A.D. 34, Israel’s time was up. I believe that is why Christ left those verses out. Today those promises are for the Church.
Raven wrote: Now I'm going to get a bit controversial here. Where else have you seen this standard? Not just Rome! Nazi Germany used almost the EXACT same standard! And they too excercised a holocaust against the Jews. All in the name of God, of course. Now there is another who goes forth to proclaim a 'pax romana' in the name of God. But the name of THIS God isnt Yawheh. It's democracy. Look at the presidential seal of the United States. Being an american myself, I can only wonder at the similarities. And what about this 'road map' for peace in Israel? Totally smacks of what Isaiah prophesied! "We have made a covenant with death and with hell we are in agreement." I fear this too will end with a holacaust of the Jews.I actually had a link to a Nazi standard, but I couldn’t get it to display, so I left it out. You know the resemblance of the Roman and Nazi war standards is no accident. Hitler was only one of a number of men who tried to establish a Roman style empire in Europe and failed. Napoleon was another. They failed because Daniel’s prophecy in Daniel 2:41 describes the feet of the image composed of partly iron and partly clay- never again to be a completely united empire as it was in the days of Rome.
Funny you should mention the U.S. in the same breath as Rome, and I like your cool reference to Isaiah. I believe the United States and Rome are the principal players in Revelation 13. I don’t think there will be another holocaust of the Jews. I see the terrorist threat continuing as a standoff with chronic flare-ups and 9-11 type incidents until the Lord comes again. I think that’s the way our lives are going to be from now on, sad to say.
When I visited Israel in 1990, I saw exactly what I saw in South Africa in 1989- an apartheid system. Hypocritically, we have given RSA boycotts and Israel bouquets. This apartheid system is why Israel is like a walled city surrounded by enemies. Our support has made us another target of terrorism. We dragged the U.K. into it with us. But all of this happened to fulfill prophecy. Remember what I said about church and state. The “Christian†right was almost dead before Bush was elected in 2000, and 9-11 gave them a super-charged Popeye spinach energy boost! Most of them are evangelicals for whom Israel is a key player in their end-time prophetic scenarios. They believe by the U.S. helping Israel they are hastening the second coming of Christ. Well, they are fulfilling prophecy, but in the opposite way than they think. They are only helping destabilize the world and provoking more terror, and creating more need for draconian security measures at home, more freedoms lost to protect us from terror. Look at the new composition of the Supreme Court. This is no accident either. Finally, the U.S. Government will be the one that imposes the mark of the beast- and they won’t even know they are doing it!
Raven wrote: I dont think the folks that wrote these things down were just telling us bedtime stories to make us behave like good children! But maybe they were. I believe that the main purpose of prophecy is to make people listen to God and obey His word. The fortune-telling part of it is merely a rattle to get and hold our baby-like attention.
Jeremiah 23:21,22
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. 22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
Isaiah 61:3-6
3 …and provide for those who grieve in Zion-- to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair. They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the LORD for the display of his splendor. 4 They will rebuild the ancient ruins and restore the places long devastated; they will renew the ruined cities that have been devastated for generations. 5 Aliens will shepherd your flocks; foreigners will work your fields and vineyards. 6 And you will be called priests of the LORD, you will be named ministers of our God. You will feed on the wealth of nations, and in their riches you will boast.
I don't believe those verses will ever come to pass for national Israel. They were a conditional prophecy of what might have been. Israel lost it’s way, disobeyed and disqualified itself from the prize. When Daniel’s seventy weeks expired in A.D. 34, Israel’s time was up. I believe that is why Christ left those verses out. Today those promises are for the Church.
Raven wrote: Now I'm going to get a bit controversial here. Where else have you seen this standard? Not just Rome! Nazi Germany used almost the EXACT same standard! And they too excercised a holocaust against the Jews. All in the name of God, of course. Now there is another who goes forth to proclaim a 'pax romana' in the name of God. But the name of THIS God isnt Yawheh. It's democracy. Look at the presidential seal of the United States. Being an american myself, I can only wonder at the similarities. And what about this 'road map' for peace in Israel? Totally smacks of what Isaiah prophesied! "We have made a covenant with death and with hell we are in agreement." I fear this too will end with a holacaust of the Jews.I actually had a link to a Nazi standard, but I couldn’t get it to display, so I left it out. You know the resemblance of the Roman and Nazi war standards is no accident. Hitler was only one of a number of men who tried to establish a Roman style empire in Europe and failed. Napoleon was another. They failed because Daniel’s prophecy in Daniel 2:41 describes the feet of the image composed of partly iron and partly clay- never again to be a completely united empire as it was in the days of Rome.
Funny you should mention the U.S. in the same breath as Rome, and I like your cool reference to Isaiah. I believe the United States and Rome are the principal players in Revelation 13. I don’t think there will be another holocaust of the Jews. I see the terrorist threat continuing as a standoff with chronic flare-ups and 9-11 type incidents until the Lord comes again. I think that’s the way our lives are going to be from now on, sad to say.
When I visited Israel in 1990, I saw exactly what I saw in South Africa in 1989- an apartheid system. Hypocritically, we have given RSA boycotts and Israel bouquets. This apartheid system is why Israel is like a walled city surrounded by enemies. Our support has made us another target of terrorism. We dragged the U.K. into it with us. But all of this happened to fulfill prophecy. Remember what I said about church and state. The “Christian†right was almost dead before Bush was elected in 2000, and 9-11 gave them a super-charged Popeye spinach energy boost! Most of them are evangelicals for whom Israel is a key player in their end-time prophetic scenarios. They believe by the U.S. helping Israel they are hastening the second coming of Christ. Well, they are fulfilling prophecy, but in the opposite way than they think. They are only helping destabilize the world and provoking more terror, and creating more need for draconian security measures at home, more freedoms lost to protect us from terror. Look at the new composition of the Supreme Court. This is no accident either. Finally, the U.S. Government will be the one that imposes the mark of the beast- and they won’t even know they are doing it!
Raven wrote: I dont think the folks that wrote these things down were just telling us bedtime stories to make us behave like good children! But maybe they were. I believe that the main purpose of prophecy is to make people listen to God and obey His word. The fortune-telling part of it is merely a rattle to get and hold our baby-like attention.
Jeremiah 23:21,22
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. 22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
Look what the cat dragged in.
The Raven challenge!
I don't believe those verses will ever come to pass for national Israel. They were a conditional prophecy of what might have been. Israel lost it’s way, disobeyed and disqualified itself from the prize. When Daniel’s seventy weeks expired in A.D. 34, Israel’s time was up. I believe that is why Christ left those verses out. Today those promises are for the Church.
No, that wasnt the text I had in mind. It was the one where he proclaimed the kingdom was now among them and they chased Him out for 'blaspheming.'
I also believe what the new testament states regularly throughout. "And yet all Israel shall be saved". They HAD to not believe so the rest of the world could hear the good news. If they HAD of believed that Christ was their messiah, then how could the whole world be reconciled? But now that the Gospel has reached all the nations, and the good news proclaimed to the 4 corners, it's time to go back to Israel. And funny about the timing. There was NO Israel, for what, 2,000 some odd years? And then POOF! Eziekials valley of bones were given flesh again. The thing about prophesy in scripture is, people try to complicate it by reading to many things into it. If God said he was going to make Babylon bald like a rock, well....He DID! Just look at it now!
I am not one who believes that the church has replaced Israel in prophecy. Thats a dangerous thing to assume. Remember that the church is made up of folk that were utterly pagan. Israel is the natural born. We were GRAFTED into that tree. I think Israels promises still stand. We've received promises of our own!:-6 And I believe God keeps them all. Even unto the end of the age. You see, I think WE belong to Christ. And Christ belongs to God. Israel is Gods. LOL!! They are HIS problem! He chose 'em!:wah: But seriously, Israel is such a big player in endtime prophesy, that we MUSNT get confused over WHO we are! We're CHRISTIAN soldiers, mate!
Now the current state of Israel is a secular nation. Zionism is their religious arm. But make no mistake, I believe they ARE the fig tree we must look to for the signs of our times. Eziekial was clear in that the Messiah will enter the city through the East gate. (then all hell will break loose) But the gate he enters through is currently blocked up. Arabs keep trying to destroy it, but for some reason cant manage it. Anyway, WE have our OWN 'week' of years to get through. And since the saints are mentioned throughout the whole book of revelation, one can only wonder!
Finally, the U.S. Government will be the one that imposes the mark of the beast- and they won’t even know they are doing it!
Yep. Totally agree. Mystery Babylon. And the 'Beast' hates the whore. How long before it's us thats considered the terrorists? We have a tough road ahead. Alot of the things prophesied that are coming on the secular world, the book says we'll be spared from, but it's going to get ugly.
But maybe they were. I believe that the main purpose of prophecy is to make people listen to God and obey His word. The fortune-telling part of it is merely a rattle to get and hold our baby-like attention.
:yh_rotfl Thats FUNNY!!
But we must NEVER forget the purpose of all this in the first place. God means to put a complete end to sin. We're just blessed enough to be told about it.
No, that wasnt the text I had in mind. It was the one where he proclaimed the kingdom was now among them and they chased Him out for 'blaspheming.'
I also believe what the new testament states regularly throughout. "And yet all Israel shall be saved". They HAD to not believe so the rest of the world could hear the good news. If they HAD of believed that Christ was their messiah, then how could the whole world be reconciled? But now that the Gospel has reached all the nations, and the good news proclaimed to the 4 corners, it's time to go back to Israel. And funny about the timing. There was NO Israel, for what, 2,000 some odd years? And then POOF! Eziekials valley of bones were given flesh again. The thing about prophesy in scripture is, people try to complicate it by reading to many things into it. If God said he was going to make Babylon bald like a rock, well....He DID! Just look at it now!
I am not one who believes that the church has replaced Israel in prophecy. Thats a dangerous thing to assume. Remember that the church is made up of folk that were utterly pagan. Israel is the natural born. We were GRAFTED into that tree. I think Israels promises still stand. We've received promises of our own!:-6 And I believe God keeps them all. Even unto the end of the age. You see, I think WE belong to Christ. And Christ belongs to God. Israel is Gods. LOL!! They are HIS problem! He chose 'em!:wah: But seriously, Israel is such a big player in endtime prophesy, that we MUSNT get confused over WHO we are! We're CHRISTIAN soldiers, mate!
Now the current state of Israel is a secular nation. Zionism is their religious arm. But make no mistake, I believe they ARE the fig tree we must look to for the signs of our times. Eziekial was clear in that the Messiah will enter the city through the East gate. (then all hell will break loose) But the gate he enters through is currently blocked up. Arabs keep trying to destroy it, but for some reason cant manage it. Anyway, WE have our OWN 'week' of years to get through. And since the saints are mentioned throughout the whole book of revelation, one can only wonder!
Finally, the U.S. Government will be the one that imposes the mark of the beast- and they won’t even know they are doing it!
Yep. Totally agree. Mystery Babylon. And the 'Beast' hates the whore. How long before it's us thats considered the terrorists? We have a tough road ahead. Alot of the things prophesied that are coming on the secular world, the book says we'll be spared from, but it's going to get ugly.
But maybe they were. I believe that the main purpose of prophecy is to make people listen to God and obey His word. The fortune-telling part of it is merely a rattle to get and hold our baby-like attention.
:yh_rotfl Thats FUNNY!!
But we must NEVER forget the purpose of all this in the first place. God means to put a complete end to sin. We're just blessed enough to be told about it.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
-
telaquapacky
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:00 pm
The Raven challenge!
Raven wrote: I am not one who believes that the church has replaced Israel in prophecy.I'm not saying the church has replaced Israel. I'm not into replacement theology, nor do I like the modern concept of dispensationalism. Remember that Paul said, "Not all who are born of Israel are Israel." All I'm saying is Israel is a spiritual entity. It is not a earthly nation or it's citizens, nor is it the Jewish religion- that's what I would call "Israel of the flesh." I believe prophecy is spiritual, and as such, speaks about "Spiritual Israel." "Israel" spiritually means God's people.
Romans 2:6-11
God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
Clearly, no one will be saved merely because they were born into a Jewish family. We are all under the same salvation plan, and have been since Adam.
Will All the Jews Become Born-again Christians?
There is a popular theology going around that there will be a secret rapture of the saved before the time of trouble, and that the antichrist will come after the time of trouble. After the rapture, they claim, all the saved Christians will be gone from the earth, and the unbelieving Jews and wishy-washy Christians and atheists will be left. The secret rapture believers claim that then antichrist will come, and the folks who weren't ready to go with Jesus the first time will have one more shot at redemption- but they'll have to pass the test of the mark of the beast. They interpret the "all Israel will be saved" to mean that literally every Jew on earth will become a born-again Christian. To make room for a second "Jewish Dispensation," they create a "gap" in the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy to fabricate some after-the-rapture time of saving all the Jews. I don't know if I have all the details of that theology right, but it doesn't matter because I don't believe any part of it.
First of all, according to my own careful and prayerful study of prophecy and history the antichrist has been around for quite a long time. The 1,260 days of Revelation 11:3 and 12:6 began in A.D. 538 and ended in 1798. The antichrist is the papacy. It's not just one man. It's an office occupied by many men over history. Collectively, they are the 666. There is no possibility that I can ever be convinced otherwise. But I believe Revelation 17:8-10 tells us that antichrist was, is not, and is to come. The deadly wound was inflicted in 1798. The healing began with the resurgence of Papal power in the 20th century. We have yet to see the Papacy begin it's final reign.
Secondly, as I understand it, when Jesus comes next, it will be anything but a secret. 2 Peter 3:10 says, "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare." There won't be anyone left alive on planet earth when the saved are taken to heaven.
Thirdly, as I understand it, now is the time of salvation. There will be no "second chance." Scripture gives a very detailed description of the coming of Messiah in clouds of heaven so that no one need be fooled by a David Koresh, or a Khristos, or a Jim Jones, or whoever comes next claiming to be Jesus. For Jesus' next appearance, He will appear only in the sky. I don't believe He'll be setting foot anywhere on earth or walking through any gates. He certainly won't be born on earth as He was the first time.
I believe that the Papacy is the first beast in Revelation 13, the one that comes out of the sea. I believe that the United States is the second beast in Revelation 13, the one that comes out of the land. The United States is as we speak in the process of erecting an image to the beast in the form of the union of church and state, thanks to our evangelical, apostate protestant friends of the "Christian" right, and our friends in the right wing of the Republican party. The next step is the mark of the beast. Raven wrote: But we must NEVER forget the purpose of all this in the first place. God means to put a complete end to sin. We're just blessed enough to be told about it.Amen! That is why we need to make a complete end of sin in our own lives. We can't do this without the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the latter rain. We need to be praying and studying our Bibles like never before.
Romans 2:6-11
God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
Clearly, no one will be saved merely because they were born into a Jewish family. We are all under the same salvation plan, and have been since Adam.
Will All the Jews Become Born-again Christians?
There is a popular theology going around that there will be a secret rapture of the saved before the time of trouble, and that the antichrist will come after the time of trouble. After the rapture, they claim, all the saved Christians will be gone from the earth, and the unbelieving Jews and wishy-washy Christians and atheists will be left. The secret rapture believers claim that then antichrist will come, and the folks who weren't ready to go with Jesus the first time will have one more shot at redemption- but they'll have to pass the test of the mark of the beast. They interpret the "all Israel will be saved" to mean that literally every Jew on earth will become a born-again Christian. To make room for a second "Jewish Dispensation," they create a "gap" in the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy to fabricate some after-the-rapture time of saving all the Jews. I don't know if I have all the details of that theology right, but it doesn't matter because I don't believe any part of it.
First of all, according to my own careful and prayerful study of prophecy and history the antichrist has been around for quite a long time. The 1,260 days of Revelation 11:3 and 12:6 began in A.D. 538 and ended in 1798. The antichrist is the papacy. It's not just one man. It's an office occupied by many men over history. Collectively, they are the 666. There is no possibility that I can ever be convinced otherwise. But I believe Revelation 17:8-10 tells us that antichrist was, is not, and is to come. The deadly wound was inflicted in 1798. The healing began with the resurgence of Papal power in the 20th century. We have yet to see the Papacy begin it's final reign.
Secondly, as I understand it, when Jesus comes next, it will be anything but a secret. 2 Peter 3:10 says, "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare." There won't be anyone left alive on planet earth when the saved are taken to heaven.
Thirdly, as I understand it, now is the time of salvation. There will be no "second chance." Scripture gives a very detailed description of the coming of Messiah in clouds of heaven so that no one need be fooled by a David Koresh, or a Khristos, or a Jim Jones, or whoever comes next claiming to be Jesus. For Jesus' next appearance, He will appear only in the sky. I don't believe He'll be setting foot anywhere on earth or walking through any gates. He certainly won't be born on earth as He was the first time.
I believe that the Papacy is the first beast in Revelation 13, the one that comes out of the sea. I believe that the United States is the second beast in Revelation 13, the one that comes out of the land. The United States is as we speak in the process of erecting an image to the beast in the form of the union of church and state, thanks to our evangelical, apostate protestant friends of the "Christian" right, and our friends in the right wing of the Republican party. The next step is the mark of the beast. Raven wrote: But we must NEVER forget the purpose of all this in the first place. God means to put a complete end to sin. We're just blessed enough to be told about it.Amen! That is why we need to make a complete end of sin in our own lives. We can't do this without the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the latter rain. We need to be praying and studying our Bibles like never before.
Look what the cat dragged in.
-
telaquapacky
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:00 pm
The Raven challenge!
Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.â€â€™
This may be jumping ahead, but the mention of the second death in 2:11 warrants a little investigation. The Book of Revelation speaks a lot concerning death and resurrection. There is a widely held spiritual misconception regarding the nature of death and resurrection, which makes certain parts of the Book of Revelation impossible to understand, because they make no sense according to the mistaken view most churches teach about death and resurrection.
The Most Widespread Spiritual Misconception Of All
If there is one almost universally accepted religious idea that is just plain wrong, it is the concept of the natural immortality of the human spirit. People generally hold the idea that when they die, it is only their body that dies, but the spirit that is their conscious self, that feels emotions and has thoughts and intentions, is immortal, and once freed from the body, it goes somewhere. Some eastern religions teach that it goes to another body being born, and so the person is reincarnated. In the Occult, it is believed that spirits of the dead can communicate with those still alive. Most western religions teach that if the person was good, the soul goes to heaven, and if bad, goes to hell. There in heaven, or hell, the immortal soul lives forever- so most people believe. This belief is so powerfully compulsive that people believe it in the face of explicit, black and white Bible testimony to the contrary.
I’ll tell you about an experience I had. Some years ago it seemed medically necessary for me to have a colonoscopy. I didn’t want to be awake for this agony. I found a doctor who would put me to sleep for it. We went in to the clinic, and I changed into the gown, and laid down on the gurney. The nurse gave me a shot, and I remember thinking, “Man, this stuff is strong!†Moments later, I was laying in the hallway, waiting for the colonoscopy. My wife came up and asked me how the procedure went.
“I haven’t had it yet. I’m just waiting for them to bring me in.â€
Jeannie smiled that knowing smile of hers and said, “I have news for you. You have already had the colonoscopy. It’s finished. Get dressed and we’ll go home.â€
Another time I had a kidney stone that required a very complicated surgery. I remember saying “goodbye†to the anesthetist. A moment later I found myself sitting upright in the recovery room in the most terrible pain and distress I have ever experienced. I had been under general anesthesia for a few hours. It seemed to me only a few seconds.
I am convinced by Scripture that if a person died, even thousands of years ago, and let’s suppose they were saved- they will experience no passage of time from the moment they die, to the moment they awake in the resurrection. For the time in between their death and their resurrection, their body will be decaying to dust, and their conscience will be non-existent. From the moment they die, the next thing they know they will be awaking in the resurrection. It will seem as if it had been only a moment, like my experiences with general anesthesia.
The Bible teaches that when you die, the spirit in you returns to God who gave it. This spirit is the breath of life. Our life on earth is like a fragile, battery-operated toy that is given to us. The catch is that the battery that runs the toy is only loaned to us. When God, the Giver wants the battery back, He gets it back. The toy then becomes inanimate, and in time it biodegrades back into the earth from which it was taken.
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
The material of the body comes from the earth. The life comes from God. Adam became a living being, or soul, when the body of earthly elements was combined with the life power from God. If the life power is removed and goes back to heaven where it came from, the man is no longer a living being or soul, but a dead, inanimate carcass. The Bible often reminds us that we are dust, we are clay. We did not come from heaven. We came from the earth.
Genesis 3:19
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.â€
Read that carefully. It doesn’t say “…And to dust your body shall return.†It says, “…And to dust you shall return.â€
Job 34:14,15
If He should set His heart on it,
If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
15 All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust.
It doesn’t say “…And man’s body would return to dust.†Is says, “man would return to dust,†because that’s where we came from.
Ecclesiastes 12:6,7
6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken,
Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain,
Or the wheel broken at the well.
7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
The spirit returns to God because it came from God. We came from the earth.
Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
You may notice that some versions say “…his plans perish,†or “…his plans come to nothing.†There is a Hebrew word for plans, like the plans God has for us in Jeremiah 29:11. That word is “machashabaw.†Machashabaw appears many times in Scripture, and almost always means something preconceived or planned, or describes intentions. The word used in Psalm 146:4 is the Hebrew word “eshtonah.†Eshtonah appears only in Psalm 146:4. But it is derived from the Hebrew word, “ashath,†which means “to think.†There is no evidence that the right translation for Psalm 146:4 has anything to do with planning or intentions. When a man dies, his thoughts cease.
Job 7:9,10
8 The eye of him who sees me will see me no more;
While your eyes are upon me, I shall no longer be.
9 As the cloud disappears and vanishes away,
So he who goes down to the grave does not come up.
He shall never return to his house,
Nor shall his place know him anymore.
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6
For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.
All this is the result of sin. If Adam and Eve had never sinned, they could have lived forever. In
the Garden of Eden they had access to the Tree of Life. But once they sinned, God had to bar them from further access to the Tree of Life. Without a clear path to this tree, man does not live forever, in spirit form or otherwise.
Genesis 3:22-24
22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live foreverâ€â€23 therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
We don’t have eternal life. But we do have this hope: God has promised to give eternal life to His children in Christ, It’s a gift. If we already had eternal life, it would not be a gift. When will we get this gift? Scripture is clear. We don’t get it yet. If we die before Jesus comes, we die. Dead. This is an experience common to everyone.
In Revelation 2:10 the Smyrna church was told to “be faithful unto death.†Here, they are told they shall not be hurt by the “second death.†Evidently they would experience death, but not the second death. The death that the Smyrna believers experienced was a death common to all humanity.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
This gives us some information. All who ever lived and were saved in Christ, and who died, will be resurrected to life again- WHEN? Verse 23 leaves no doubt- at the second coming of Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Where it says “God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.†It means God will bring them from earth to heaven with Jesus- Not from heaven to earth. If they were already in heaven, why does it say that the dead “rise?†Scripture is clear. These people have “slept†unconsciously in their graves- some for thousands of years. They will awake on the last day, when Jesus comes again. This is consistent throughout the Bible- Old Testament, New Testament- the story never has changed.
Job 14:13-15
13 “Oh, that You would hide me in the grave,
That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past,
That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man dies, shall he live again?
All the days of my hard service I will wait,
Till my change comes.
15 You shall call, and I will answer You;
You shall desire the work of Your hands.
Job 19:25-27
25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
Psalm 6:4,5
4 Return, O LORD, deliver me!
Oh, save me for Your mercies’ sake!
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You;
In the grave who will give You thanks?
Psalm 16:8-10
I have set the LORD always before me;
Because He is at my right hand I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices;
My flesh also will rest in hope.
10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Psalm 17:15
15 As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness;
I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness.
Psalm 49:15
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave,
For He shall receive me.
Selah
Psalm 116:7-9
7 Return to your rest, O my soul,
For the LORD has dealt bountifully with you.
8 For You have delivered my soul from death,
My eyes from tears,
And my feet from falling.
9 I will walk before the LORD
In the land of the living.
Hosea 13:14
4 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave;
I will redeem them from death.
O Death, I will be your plagues!
O Grave, I will be your destruction!
Pity is hidden from My eyes.â€
Isaiah 25:8,9
He will swallow up death forever,
And the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces;
The rebuke of His people
He will take away from all the earth;
For the LORD has spoken.
9 And it will be said in that day:
“Behold, this is our God;
We have waited for Him, and He will save us.
This is the LORD;
We have waited for Him;
We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.â€
Isaiah 26:19-21
Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.
Daniel 12:1,2
“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Notice that in many of the Old Testament texts referring to the resurrection there is also a clear reference to the day of the Lord, the second coming of Christ. When a person dies, they sleep. They become unconscious. They have no sense of the passage of time until their resurrection. Then, on the last day of history as we know it, Jesus will come in clouds of heaven and the dead in Christ will awake from the graves where they have slept since death, and arise with new, eternally-living spirit-bodies. We who are alive and remain on the earth when Jesus comes again will be transformed at that moment into eternally living bodies, and rise, following the resurrected saints, to meet Jesus in the air. Then He will take us to heaven to be with Him.
Now I know most of you don’t agree with this, but I’ll be plain and honest with you. If you read Revelation with the typical immortal soul idea, it’s like trying to translate a Chinese cookbook with a Spanish-English dictionary. Sad to say, this is one reason that Revelation is such an opaque and obtuse book to most Christians, and why many of the Biblical texts regarding the resurrection seem to make no sense. Especially when we start talking about the resurrections of the righteous and the wicked and the “second death.†A lot of Christians who study their Bibles carefully and prayerfully are starting to realize this, and giving up that old, worn out immortal soul theology. The worn out old tradition makes good “St. Peter at the pearly gates†joke material, but theologically, it just doesn’t work. Like everyone else, I had a very hard time accepting the soul-sleep way of understanding death and resurrection. But after careful and prayerful Bible study, it proved itself to me. Now everything makes sense. I’m not going back.
1027
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.â€â€™
This may be jumping ahead, but the mention of the second death in 2:11 warrants a little investigation. The Book of Revelation speaks a lot concerning death and resurrection. There is a widely held spiritual misconception regarding the nature of death and resurrection, which makes certain parts of the Book of Revelation impossible to understand, because they make no sense according to the mistaken view most churches teach about death and resurrection.
The Most Widespread Spiritual Misconception Of All
If there is one almost universally accepted religious idea that is just plain wrong, it is the concept of the natural immortality of the human spirit. People generally hold the idea that when they die, it is only their body that dies, but the spirit that is their conscious self, that feels emotions and has thoughts and intentions, is immortal, and once freed from the body, it goes somewhere. Some eastern religions teach that it goes to another body being born, and so the person is reincarnated. In the Occult, it is believed that spirits of the dead can communicate with those still alive. Most western religions teach that if the person was good, the soul goes to heaven, and if bad, goes to hell. There in heaven, or hell, the immortal soul lives forever- so most people believe. This belief is so powerfully compulsive that people believe it in the face of explicit, black and white Bible testimony to the contrary.
I’ll tell you about an experience I had. Some years ago it seemed medically necessary for me to have a colonoscopy. I didn’t want to be awake for this agony. I found a doctor who would put me to sleep for it. We went in to the clinic, and I changed into the gown, and laid down on the gurney. The nurse gave me a shot, and I remember thinking, “Man, this stuff is strong!†Moments later, I was laying in the hallway, waiting for the colonoscopy. My wife came up and asked me how the procedure went.
“I haven’t had it yet. I’m just waiting for them to bring me in.â€
Jeannie smiled that knowing smile of hers and said, “I have news for you. You have already had the colonoscopy. It’s finished. Get dressed and we’ll go home.â€
Another time I had a kidney stone that required a very complicated surgery. I remember saying “goodbye†to the anesthetist. A moment later I found myself sitting upright in the recovery room in the most terrible pain and distress I have ever experienced. I had been under general anesthesia for a few hours. It seemed to me only a few seconds.
I am convinced by Scripture that if a person died, even thousands of years ago, and let’s suppose they were saved- they will experience no passage of time from the moment they die, to the moment they awake in the resurrection. For the time in between their death and their resurrection, their body will be decaying to dust, and their conscience will be non-existent. From the moment they die, the next thing they know they will be awaking in the resurrection. It will seem as if it had been only a moment, like my experiences with general anesthesia.
The Bible teaches that when you die, the spirit in you returns to God who gave it. This spirit is the breath of life. Our life on earth is like a fragile, battery-operated toy that is given to us. The catch is that the battery that runs the toy is only loaned to us. When God, the Giver wants the battery back, He gets it back. The toy then becomes inanimate, and in time it biodegrades back into the earth from which it was taken.
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
The material of the body comes from the earth. The life comes from God. Adam became a living being, or soul, when the body of earthly elements was combined with the life power from God. If the life power is removed and goes back to heaven where it came from, the man is no longer a living being or soul, but a dead, inanimate carcass. The Bible often reminds us that we are dust, we are clay. We did not come from heaven. We came from the earth.
Genesis 3:19
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.â€
Read that carefully. It doesn’t say “…And to dust your body shall return.†It says, “…And to dust you shall return.â€
Job 34:14,15
If He should set His heart on it,
If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
15 All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust.
It doesn’t say “…And man’s body would return to dust.†Is says, “man would return to dust,†because that’s where we came from.
Ecclesiastes 12:6,7
6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken,
Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain,
Or the wheel broken at the well.
7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
The spirit returns to God because it came from God. We came from the earth.
Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
You may notice that some versions say “…his plans perish,†or “…his plans come to nothing.†There is a Hebrew word for plans, like the plans God has for us in Jeremiah 29:11. That word is “machashabaw.†Machashabaw appears many times in Scripture, and almost always means something preconceived or planned, or describes intentions. The word used in Psalm 146:4 is the Hebrew word “eshtonah.†Eshtonah appears only in Psalm 146:4. But it is derived from the Hebrew word, “ashath,†which means “to think.†There is no evidence that the right translation for Psalm 146:4 has anything to do with planning or intentions. When a man dies, his thoughts cease.
Job 7:9,10
8 The eye of him who sees me will see me no more;
While your eyes are upon me, I shall no longer be.
9 As the cloud disappears and vanishes away,
So he who goes down to the grave does not come up.
He shall never return to his house,
Nor shall his place know him anymore.
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6
For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.
All this is the result of sin. If Adam and Eve had never sinned, they could have lived forever. In
the Garden of Eden they had access to the Tree of Life. But once they sinned, God had to bar them from further access to the Tree of Life. Without a clear path to this tree, man does not live forever, in spirit form or otherwise.
Genesis 3:22-24
22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live foreverâ€â€23 therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
We don’t have eternal life. But we do have this hope: God has promised to give eternal life to His children in Christ, It’s a gift. If we already had eternal life, it would not be a gift. When will we get this gift? Scripture is clear. We don’t get it yet. If we die before Jesus comes, we die. Dead. This is an experience common to everyone.
In Revelation 2:10 the Smyrna church was told to “be faithful unto death.†Here, they are told they shall not be hurt by the “second death.†Evidently they would experience death, but not the second death. The death that the Smyrna believers experienced was a death common to all humanity.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
This gives us some information. All who ever lived and were saved in Christ, and who died, will be resurrected to life again- WHEN? Verse 23 leaves no doubt- at the second coming of Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Where it says “God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.†It means God will bring them from earth to heaven with Jesus- Not from heaven to earth. If they were already in heaven, why does it say that the dead “rise?†Scripture is clear. These people have “slept†unconsciously in their graves- some for thousands of years. They will awake on the last day, when Jesus comes again. This is consistent throughout the Bible- Old Testament, New Testament- the story never has changed.
Job 14:13-15
13 “Oh, that You would hide me in the grave,
That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past,
That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man dies, shall he live again?
All the days of my hard service I will wait,
Till my change comes.
15 You shall call, and I will answer You;
You shall desire the work of Your hands.
Job 19:25-27
25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
Psalm 6:4,5
4 Return, O LORD, deliver me!
Oh, save me for Your mercies’ sake!
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You;
In the grave who will give You thanks?
Psalm 16:8-10
I have set the LORD always before me;
Because He is at my right hand I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices;
My flesh also will rest in hope.
10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Psalm 17:15
15 As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness;
I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness.
Psalm 49:15
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave,
For He shall receive me.
Selah
Psalm 116:7-9
7 Return to your rest, O my soul,
For the LORD has dealt bountifully with you.
8 For You have delivered my soul from death,
My eyes from tears,
And my feet from falling.
9 I will walk before the LORD
In the land of the living.
Hosea 13:14
4 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave;
I will redeem them from death.
O Death, I will be your plagues!
O Grave, I will be your destruction!
Pity is hidden from My eyes.â€
Isaiah 25:8,9
He will swallow up death forever,
And the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces;
The rebuke of His people
He will take away from all the earth;
For the LORD has spoken.
9 And it will be said in that day:
“Behold, this is our God;
We have waited for Him, and He will save us.
This is the LORD;
We have waited for Him;
We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.â€
Isaiah 26:19-21
Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.
Daniel 12:1,2
“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Notice that in many of the Old Testament texts referring to the resurrection there is also a clear reference to the day of the Lord, the second coming of Christ. When a person dies, they sleep. They become unconscious. They have no sense of the passage of time until their resurrection. Then, on the last day of history as we know it, Jesus will come in clouds of heaven and the dead in Christ will awake from the graves where they have slept since death, and arise with new, eternally-living spirit-bodies. We who are alive and remain on the earth when Jesus comes again will be transformed at that moment into eternally living bodies, and rise, following the resurrected saints, to meet Jesus in the air. Then He will take us to heaven to be with Him.
Now I know most of you don’t agree with this, but I’ll be plain and honest with you. If you read Revelation with the typical immortal soul idea, it’s like trying to translate a Chinese cookbook with a Spanish-English dictionary. Sad to say, this is one reason that Revelation is such an opaque and obtuse book to most Christians, and why many of the Biblical texts regarding the resurrection seem to make no sense. Especially when we start talking about the resurrections of the righteous and the wicked and the “second death.†A lot of Christians who study their Bibles carefully and prayerfully are starting to realize this, and giving up that old, worn out immortal soul theology. The worn out old tradition makes good “St. Peter at the pearly gates†joke material, but theologically, it just doesn’t work. Like everyone else, I had a very hard time accepting the soul-sleep way of understanding death and resurrection. But after careful and prayerful Bible study, it proved itself to me. Now everything makes sense. I’m not going back.
1027
Look what the cat dragged in.
-
telaquapacky
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:00 pm
The Raven challenge!
This is part three of a one of a three part series which includes posts 80,81 and 82. They are a labor of love, and I commend you for plodding through all of this, if you do. I hope it will be worth your while. Thank you for your consideration of what I’m presenting here.
The Two Resurrections And The Second Death, Part 1
Revelation 2:10b,11
… Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
I shared with you in my last post that the Smyrna people suffered the first death, yet Jesus promised them He would spare them from the second death. Rather than just gloss over the above verses superficially, it would be good to know what “the second death†means. In my last post I presented Scriptural testimony describing the first death. I think that armed with the true Biblical understanding of the state of the dead, and the timing and conditions associated with the resurrection, we are ready to understand the second death. (I may be jumping ahead, but the second death is mentioned in the letter to Smyrna, so I think that a full investigation of it is fair game)
What is the Second Death?
The second death is mentioned four times in the Book of Revelation: verses 2:11, 20:6,14 and 21:8. If you read Chapter 20 from verse 4 to 15, you get a fuller explanation of the future history of death and resurrection than anywhere else in all of Scripture. One thing about Revelation- it is the book that brings all the threads of the entire Bible together.
Revelation 20:4-15
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The Judgment of the Saints and the Millennium
The first thing apparent in Revelation 20:4-15 is that we get a glimpse of two different judgments. Verse 4 talks about a judgment of the saints (In the Bible, “saints†means all the saved people). Why judge the saints? I thought we were excused from judgment. But this judgment is one that you want- it’s good news. It’s your acquittal- it establishes your right to eternal life in Christ. If you have ever been accused, or God forbid, arrested and booked for some crime that you know you are innocent of, believe me, you do not want this thing to go away quietly. You want your day in court to prove your innocence and restore your good reputation. Who is being judged and acquitted there? It says “the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.†That sounds like a description of all the saved who remain alive until Christ’s second coming. But there is reason to believe that the dead in Christ from all past ages are also included in this judgment, because it says, “the rest of the dead†took part in another resurrection, one thousand years later, and faced another judgment. There is good reason to believe that none of the saints, ancient or modern, will face that second judgment. The outcome of the first judgment is that the saints live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. Where is this happening? Not on earth, but in heaven- that is, out in space somewhere. More specifically, in the New Jerusalem. We are told that at the resurrection of the saved, they meet Jesus in the air and go with Him to heaven. There, they stand on a sea of glass, and once judged righteous, then enter the city, the New Jerusalem, and have access to the tree of life. This city in space is their dwelling place for a thousand years. (Aside: Some of us have heard what may be folklore, but may be true, that the present dwelling place of God in heaven is located in the Orion Nebula- that middle spot of light in the belt of the constellation Orion. If so, then that is where we’re going after the resurrection, and that the New Jerusalem is being prepared for us there, right now, as we speak. I’m not saying Orion is necessarily the place, but just to provide some cognitive frame of reference. “Heaven†means out in space somewhere- maybe in Orion, maybe somewhere else. God knows. Every time I see Orion, I think about Jesus’ coming and our journey to heaven, and take stock of my own life)
During the thousand years, verse 5 tells us that the “rest of the dead,†that is, the lost, “lived not again until the thousand years were finished.†Here’s where an accurate view of the state of the dead is crucial to understanding. The rest of the dead are still unconscious and unalive, and their bodies are buried back on earth. Many of their bones litter the earth. The earth, after the fiery cataclysm of Christ’s second coming, is a vast, charred wasteland. Jeremiah described the scene:
Jeremiah 4:23-25
23 I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, And all the hills moved back and forth. 25 I beheld, and indeed there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens had fled.
The phrase, “without form and void†ought to sound familiar to you. It’s from Genesis 1:2, describing the earth in the earliest phase of creation. After the cataclysm of the second coming, the earth is returned to it’s primitive state.
Genesis 1:2
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
See the word, “deep?†it comes from the Hebrew word, tehom, which means, “abyss,†or “bottomless pit.†The world dark and void, after the saints have left, and the unsaved have died, looks like an abyss, like a bottomless pit. What does that make you think of?
Revelation 20:1-3
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
So another thing that happens at the beginning of the thousand years, what we call the millennium, is that Satan is bound. I believe that the fiery cataclysm of Christ’s second coming scorches the surface of the earth, leaving it a deserted wasteland, and there amid the wreckage and chaos, Satan walks alone and dejected. He has a thousand years to look upon the results of his course of action and think about all the grief and misery he has caused to mankind (Maybe Satan’s fallen angels are with him- maybe they are saying, “A fine mess you’ve gotten us into.†And maybe Satan is saying to them, “I’m thinking… I’m thinking…â€)
Incidentally, the abandonment of Satan in the desolate earth is a fulfillment of the same scene that was acted out every year in the Jewish Ceremonial feast of Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, when the scapegoat, azazel, which ultimately bore the sins of the community, was led far out into the wilderness and abandoned there (see my post #39 where I describe how the Day of Atonement was celebrated).
Here are the events discussed so far at the second coming of Christ:
1.)The sleeping saints are awakened and resurrected into eternally living bodies
2.)The living saints are transformed in to new eternally living bodies
3.)They all rise to meet Jesus in the air
4.)They begin a journey with Jesus to the New Jerusalem somewhere out in space
5.)The coming of Christ is with fire and radiant heat that scorches the earth to a wasteland
6.)The lost try to hide from the brightness of the coming Christ, but are incinerated and die
7.)Satan (perhaps with his angels) remains on the smoldering wreckage of planet earth
8.)The Millennium begins
I’ll continue this in the next post.
The Two Resurrections And The Second Death, Part 1
Revelation 2:10b,11
… Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
I shared with you in my last post that the Smyrna people suffered the first death, yet Jesus promised them He would spare them from the second death. Rather than just gloss over the above verses superficially, it would be good to know what “the second death†means. In my last post I presented Scriptural testimony describing the first death. I think that armed with the true Biblical understanding of the state of the dead, and the timing and conditions associated with the resurrection, we are ready to understand the second death. (I may be jumping ahead, but the second death is mentioned in the letter to Smyrna, so I think that a full investigation of it is fair game)
What is the Second Death?
The second death is mentioned four times in the Book of Revelation: verses 2:11, 20:6,14 and 21:8. If you read Chapter 20 from verse 4 to 15, you get a fuller explanation of the future history of death and resurrection than anywhere else in all of Scripture. One thing about Revelation- it is the book that brings all the threads of the entire Bible together.
Revelation 20:4-15
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The Judgment of the Saints and the Millennium
The first thing apparent in Revelation 20:4-15 is that we get a glimpse of two different judgments. Verse 4 talks about a judgment of the saints (In the Bible, “saints†means all the saved people). Why judge the saints? I thought we were excused from judgment. But this judgment is one that you want- it’s good news. It’s your acquittal- it establishes your right to eternal life in Christ. If you have ever been accused, or God forbid, arrested and booked for some crime that you know you are innocent of, believe me, you do not want this thing to go away quietly. You want your day in court to prove your innocence and restore your good reputation. Who is being judged and acquitted there? It says “the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.†That sounds like a description of all the saved who remain alive until Christ’s second coming. But there is reason to believe that the dead in Christ from all past ages are also included in this judgment, because it says, “the rest of the dead†took part in another resurrection, one thousand years later, and faced another judgment. There is good reason to believe that none of the saints, ancient or modern, will face that second judgment. The outcome of the first judgment is that the saints live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. Where is this happening? Not on earth, but in heaven- that is, out in space somewhere. More specifically, in the New Jerusalem. We are told that at the resurrection of the saved, they meet Jesus in the air and go with Him to heaven. There, they stand on a sea of glass, and once judged righteous, then enter the city, the New Jerusalem, and have access to the tree of life. This city in space is their dwelling place for a thousand years. (Aside: Some of us have heard what may be folklore, but may be true, that the present dwelling place of God in heaven is located in the Orion Nebula- that middle spot of light in the belt of the constellation Orion. If so, then that is where we’re going after the resurrection, and that the New Jerusalem is being prepared for us there, right now, as we speak. I’m not saying Orion is necessarily the place, but just to provide some cognitive frame of reference. “Heaven†means out in space somewhere- maybe in Orion, maybe somewhere else. God knows. Every time I see Orion, I think about Jesus’ coming and our journey to heaven, and take stock of my own life)
During the thousand years, verse 5 tells us that the “rest of the dead,†that is, the lost, “lived not again until the thousand years were finished.†Here’s where an accurate view of the state of the dead is crucial to understanding. The rest of the dead are still unconscious and unalive, and their bodies are buried back on earth. Many of their bones litter the earth. The earth, after the fiery cataclysm of Christ’s second coming, is a vast, charred wasteland. Jeremiah described the scene:
Jeremiah 4:23-25
23 I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, And all the hills moved back and forth. 25 I beheld, and indeed there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens had fled.
The phrase, “without form and void†ought to sound familiar to you. It’s from Genesis 1:2, describing the earth in the earliest phase of creation. After the cataclysm of the second coming, the earth is returned to it’s primitive state.
Genesis 1:2
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
See the word, “deep?†it comes from the Hebrew word, tehom, which means, “abyss,†or “bottomless pit.†The world dark and void, after the saints have left, and the unsaved have died, looks like an abyss, like a bottomless pit. What does that make you think of?
Revelation 20:1-3
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
So another thing that happens at the beginning of the thousand years, what we call the millennium, is that Satan is bound. I believe that the fiery cataclysm of Christ’s second coming scorches the surface of the earth, leaving it a deserted wasteland, and there amid the wreckage and chaos, Satan walks alone and dejected. He has a thousand years to look upon the results of his course of action and think about all the grief and misery he has caused to mankind (Maybe Satan’s fallen angels are with him- maybe they are saying, “A fine mess you’ve gotten us into.†And maybe Satan is saying to them, “I’m thinking… I’m thinking…â€)
Incidentally, the abandonment of Satan in the desolate earth is a fulfillment of the same scene that was acted out every year in the Jewish Ceremonial feast of Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, when the scapegoat, azazel, which ultimately bore the sins of the community, was led far out into the wilderness and abandoned there (see my post #39 where I describe how the Day of Atonement was celebrated).
Here are the events discussed so far at the second coming of Christ:
1.)The sleeping saints are awakened and resurrected into eternally living bodies
2.)The living saints are transformed in to new eternally living bodies
3.)They all rise to meet Jesus in the air
4.)They begin a journey with Jesus to the New Jerusalem somewhere out in space
5.)The coming of Christ is with fire and radiant heat that scorches the earth to a wasteland
6.)The lost try to hide from the brightness of the coming Christ, but are incinerated and die
7.)Satan (perhaps with his angels) remains on the smoldering wreckage of planet earth
8.)The Millennium begins
I’ll continue this in the next post.
Look what the cat dragged in.
-
telaquapacky
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:00 pm
The Raven challenge!
This is part two of a three part series which includes posts 80,81 and 82
The End of the Millennium
Revelation 20:5 tells us that “the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.†So at the end of the millennium, the unsaved dead live again- they are resurrected and walk again on the ruined planet. There is apparently a second resurrection. This should not surprise us, because Jesus said something to that effect in John 5:29
John 5:28,29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
At the same time, at the end of the thousand years, Satan is released from his prison. I don’t believe this means Satan can leave the earth. I believe it means he is no longer restrained from tempting anyone. Revelation 20:8 tells us Satan goes to gather the unsaved of all ages, who are freshly resurrected, from the four corners of the earth. These people are probably very hungry. Satan uses all the great, unsaved generals, political leaders, promoters, and mighty men of all ages past, and forms a great army to surround the camp of God’s people, the New Jerusalem.
Wait a minute. The New Jerusalem was out in space. Not anymore. Look at Revelation 20:9- “And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city…†At the end of the millennium, the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to earth. Read Revelation 3:12
Revelation 3:12
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Why does the New Jerusalem come down from heaven? We are promised a new heaven and a new earth. We aren’t going to stay in heaven forever. Satan won’t wander over a wrecked earth forever. God will remake the earth to be our new dwelling place- and His as well.
Revelation 21:1,2
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
At the end of the millennium, the unsaved multitudes, the “rest of the dead†from Revelation 20:5 experience the resurrection of damnation. They don’t get eternally living bodies. They get the same kind of bodies they had in their former life. Satan gathers them from all over the earth, and leads them to surround the camp of the saints- the New Jerusalem, which has just descended from heaven and settled on the earth.
Gog and Magog
Gog and Magog are mentioned in Ezekiel 38:2,3,14,16,18 and 39:11. I won’t quote all those verses here. If you read it, it is evident that Gog is the land of Magog, who is a chief prince who gathers a vast army of many nations, all of whom are enemies of God’s people. They have come to attack Israel, which is described as having been gathered out of the nations, and dwelling safely against the mountains of Israel. I believe that in Ezekiel as in Revelation 20, Gog and Magog the nations of the lost, and Satan. After all, the lost are every bit “the land of Magog†or Satan, as much as the saints are spiritual Israel, the land of God. The unsaved army will surround the New Jerusalem, just returned from heaven in the same way that the armies of Gog and Magog might have surrounded Israel which had returned from the exile in Babylon, and were dwelling safely against the mountains of Israel.
The White Throne Judgment
Revelation 20:8,9
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
If this scene doesn’t vindicate the righteousness of God’s judgment, I don’t know what does. No one who is condemned to die the second death will have any excuse to say God’s judgment is unfair, because in the very end, they are caught in the very act of attacking the city of God and His people. There is also tragic irony in this. These are people who, all throughout their lives, were graciously offered entrance to the spiritual city of God through the merits of Christ’s sacrificial atonement for them, yet they refused or attempted instead to enter on their own merit. Some of these people even regarded themselves as faithful Jews and Christians, yet the fruits of their personal religion reveal that rather than enter God’s kingdom Christ’s way, they were deceived into trying to enter it their own way or Satan’s way. A mere mouth profession of belief in Jesus does not constitute a saving faith.
Scripture bears out that the execution of God’s final judgment and the permanent eradication of sin will forever resolve the question of the righteousness of God’s judgment to the satisfaction of the entire universe. Those who live after this, live eternally with an experiential, unshakable faith and loving trust in God. Never again will sin mar the universe or wreak havoc on it’s inhabitants.
Revelation 20:11-14
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
When the evil army surrounds the New Jerusalem and is about to attack, God sets up His white judgment throne. The books will be opened. One book is the record of our lives- everything we ever said or did. In an instant, every person in that crowd will see all the wickedness they have ever committed. They will see every gracious offer of forgiveness, and every effort on God’s part to reach and win them gently to accept the truth about Him, all which they rejected and spurned, favoring Satan’s lies instead. Then the Book of Life is opened, and because their sins were not blotted out of the other record books by the cleansing blood of Christ, their names have been blotted out of the Book of Life.
I’ll quote what I said in post #39 about the Day of Atonement:
Telaquapacky wrote: … all day, the people searched their souls for any cherished sin or attitude of impenitence before God. As they met one another in the street, they would kindly wish one another that God would blot their sins out of His books of remembrance, and not blot their names out of His book of life.I want to emphasize again the prophetic significance of the Ceremonial Law. That law itself is abolished, having been fulfilled by Christ on the cross. We don’t have to sacrifice animals today, or have a temple around which to celebrate the Jewish festivals. But they were the way God used to teach the ancient Jews how He would solve the sin problem once and for all. Understanding their significance helps us understand the consummation of all things described in Revelation. All the Bible is consistent in infinitesimal detail. There’s a reason for all that stuff in the “Old Testament.â€
Satan and sinners, having been judged and condemned, with no room for doubt as to God’s righteousness, then will be cast into the lake of fire. For this purpose Revelation 20:9 tells us that fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes the unsaved.
The Second Death
I am going to share with you something that will make many of you very uncomfortable, and for the life of me I can’t understand why. I believe Satan, his evil angels, and all the lost are consumed in the lake of fire, and after a time, they are destroyed- cease to exist. Without apology, I do not believe that lost sinners, many of whom were no more wicked than you or I have been, will writhe in agony and torture for ceaseless ages without end in a burning hell. The very concept of an eternal burning hell is so reprehensible, sick and depraved it shocks the conscience of anyone who truly has one, and uses the meat north of the neck to think about it for a moment. God is not like that. He will Himself suffer forever a sadness of having lost those children of His, whom He loved, who rejected Him and followed Satan. He would not torture them like some perverted fiend forever. God is not like that! And humans are not built that way. We do not have eternal life in and of ourselves, that those who are lost have to be sent somewhere for eternity. This is why it is called “The Second Death.†The final end of the lost will be an eternal, unconscious death from which there will be no hope of a resurrection.
I will continue this discussion in the next post, part three of this three part series.
The End of the Millennium
Revelation 20:5 tells us that “the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.†So at the end of the millennium, the unsaved dead live again- they are resurrected and walk again on the ruined planet. There is apparently a second resurrection. This should not surprise us, because Jesus said something to that effect in John 5:29
John 5:28,29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
At the same time, at the end of the thousand years, Satan is released from his prison. I don’t believe this means Satan can leave the earth. I believe it means he is no longer restrained from tempting anyone. Revelation 20:8 tells us Satan goes to gather the unsaved of all ages, who are freshly resurrected, from the four corners of the earth. These people are probably very hungry. Satan uses all the great, unsaved generals, political leaders, promoters, and mighty men of all ages past, and forms a great army to surround the camp of God’s people, the New Jerusalem.
Wait a minute. The New Jerusalem was out in space. Not anymore. Look at Revelation 20:9- “And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city…†At the end of the millennium, the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to earth. Read Revelation 3:12
Revelation 3:12
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Why does the New Jerusalem come down from heaven? We are promised a new heaven and a new earth. We aren’t going to stay in heaven forever. Satan won’t wander over a wrecked earth forever. God will remake the earth to be our new dwelling place- and His as well.
Revelation 21:1,2
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
At the end of the millennium, the unsaved multitudes, the “rest of the dead†from Revelation 20:5 experience the resurrection of damnation. They don’t get eternally living bodies. They get the same kind of bodies they had in their former life. Satan gathers them from all over the earth, and leads them to surround the camp of the saints- the New Jerusalem, which has just descended from heaven and settled on the earth.
Gog and Magog
Gog and Magog are mentioned in Ezekiel 38:2,3,14,16,18 and 39:11. I won’t quote all those verses here. If you read it, it is evident that Gog is the land of Magog, who is a chief prince who gathers a vast army of many nations, all of whom are enemies of God’s people. They have come to attack Israel, which is described as having been gathered out of the nations, and dwelling safely against the mountains of Israel. I believe that in Ezekiel as in Revelation 20, Gog and Magog the nations of the lost, and Satan. After all, the lost are every bit “the land of Magog†or Satan, as much as the saints are spiritual Israel, the land of God. The unsaved army will surround the New Jerusalem, just returned from heaven in the same way that the armies of Gog and Magog might have surrounded Israel which had returned from the exile in Babylon, and were dwelling safely against the mountains of Israel.
The White Throne Judgment
Revelation 20:8,9
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
If this scene doesn’t vindicate the righteousness of God’s judgment, I don’t know what does. No one who is condemned to die the second death will have any excuse to say God’s judgment is unfair, because in the very end, they are caught in the very act of attacking the city of God and His people. There is also tragic irony in this. These are people who, all throughout their lives, were graciously offered entrance to the spiritual city of God through the merits of Christ’s sacrificial atonement for them, yet they refused or attempted instead to enter on their own merit. Some of these people even regarded themselves as faithful Jews and Christians, yet the fruits of their personal religion reveal that rather than enter God’s kingdom Christ’s way, they were deceived into trying to enter it their own way or Satan’s way. A mere mouth profession of belief in Jesus does not constitute a saving faith.
Scripture bears out that the execution of God’s final judgment and the permanent eradication of sin will forever resolve the question of the righteousness of God’s judgment to the satisfaction of the entire universe. Those who live after this, live eternally with an experiential, unshakable faith and loving trust in God. Never again will sin mar the universe or wreak havoc on it’s inhabitants.
Revelation 20:11-14
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
When the evil army surrounds the New Jerusalem and is about to attack, God sets up His white judgment throne. The books will be opened. One book is the record of our lives- everything we ever said or did. In an instant, every person in that crowd will see all the wickedness they have ever committed. They will see every gracious offer of forgiveness, and every effort on God’s part to reach and win them gently to accept the truth about Him, all which they rejected and spurned, favoring Satan’s lies instead. Then the Book of Life is opened, and because their sins were not blotted out of the other record books by the cleansing blood of Christ, their names have been blotted out of the Book of Life.
I’ll quote what I said in post #39 about the Day of Atonement:
Telaquapacky wrote: … all day, the people searched their souls for any cherished sin or attitude of impenitence before God. As they met one another in the street, they would kindly wish one another that God would blot their sins out of His books of remembrance, and not blot their names out of His book of life.I want to emphasize again the prophetic significance of the Ceremonial Law. That law itself is abolished, having been fulfilled by Christ on the cross. We don’t have to sacrifice animals today, or have a temple around which to celebrate the Jewish festivals. But they were the way God used to teach the ancient Jews how He would solve the sin problem once and for all. Understanding their significance helps us understand the consummation of all things described in Revelation. All the Bible is consistent in infinitesimal detail. There’s a reason for all that stuff in the “Old Testament.â€
Satan and sinners, having been judged and condemned, with no room for doubt as to God’s righteousness, then will be cast into the lake of fire. For this purpose Revelation 20:9 tells us that fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes the unsaved.
The Second Death
I am going to share with you something that will make many of you very uncomfortable, and for the life of me I can’t understand why. I believe Satan, his evil angels, and all the lost are consumed in the lake of fire, and after a time, they are destroyed- cease to exist. Without apology, I do not believe that lost sinners, many of whom were no more wicked than you or I have been, will writhe in agony and torture for ceaseless ages without end in a burning hell. The very concept of an eternal burning hell is so reprehensible, sick and depraved it shocks the conscience of anyone who truly has one, and uses the meat north of the neck to think about it for a moment. God is not like that. He will Himself suffer forever a sadness of having lost those children of His, whom He loved, who rejected Him and followed Satan. He would not torture them like some perverted fiend forever. God is not like that! And humans are not built that way. We do not have eternal life in and of ourselves, that those who are lost have to be sent somewhere for eternity. This is why it is called “The Second Death.†The final end of the lost will be an eternal, unconscious death from which there will be no hope of a resurrection.
I will continue this discussion in the next post, part three of this three part series.
Look what the cat dragged in.
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telaquapacky
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The Raven challenge!
This is part three of a three part series which includes posts 80,81 and 82.
The Case Against Eternal Hellfire
So far I have presented strong Biblical evidence for the non-immortality of the human soul. That was post #79. Here, I said a few words about the character and mercy of God. I want to emphasize that not everything that is said about God from the pulpits of Christian churches is true- I’m sure you are shocked to hear that. The threat of eternal hellfire has been used for centuries to frighten people into obedience. It really doesn’t work, does it? Even if it did, a person persuaded to live a pure life, speak pure words and think pure thoughts in order to save their behinds from roasting forever- that person cannot reasonably be said to have a righteousness based on faith- but by compulsion, and by their own effort. That is the antithesis of the gospel. Lest we forget, Satan early on, both in the Jewish era and in the Christian era, came into the church and perverted the true religion of God with error. His object was to besmirch God’s reputation through injecting wrong teachings into God’s religion- teachings which portray God as if He were as vicious and cruel and dictatorial as Satan is. The teaching of eternal, never-ending torment was invented by Satan. Satan has invested God with his own character qualities. Believe you me, if Satan could, he would delight in seeing you and me flayed and barbecued endlessly. Unfortunately, Satan has succeeded in making a lot of otherwise faithful believers in God to believe the same about God. This is unspeakably sad, and it has caused more right minded people to stomp out of the Christian church in disgust and become hardened atheists, than any other false doctrine ever perpetrated on God’s people. It also leads many who remain professing Christians (or believers in other monotheistic, Creator-God based religions) to accept the notion that since eternal hell is so horrible a thing, and so necessary to take any measures to protect people from, no matter how extreme, that many people accept the heresy that religion and morality should be enforced by the State. Church plus State equals Antichrist (If this is new to you, read my post #26). That is the end product. All of this is at bitter, irreconcilable war against righteousness by faith in Jesus.
Now how can I say there is no eternal suffering when the verse I quoted above, Revelation 20:10 appears to say otherwise? Let’s look at it again:
Revelation 20:9,10
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
My main argument rests on the dominant position of Scripture, which argues for the destruction of the Devil and all the lost. I’ll present that in a moment. First, I wish to establish a few caveats about the traditional interpretation of the verse above. One is, you will notice a different treatment of the lost human beings of the army surrounding the city of God. It says they are devoured. Only the devil, the beast and the false prophet are “tormented day and night forever,†whatever that means. The first point is that the “eternal fire†isn't meant for lost sinners; it is meant for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
People don’t belong there. It is God’s will that all should repent and come to a saving belief in Him. Because the human soul is mortal- not immortal, and destructible- not indestructible, the lost simply won’t endure in the fire for very long. The other reason is because they don’t belong there, they won’t be there very long. The unsaved, being mortal, will not endure long in that fire.
From my point of view, I see God as a consistent person. God does not break His own law. Leviticus 24:20 presents the “eye for an eye, and tooth for a tooth†principle.
Leviticus 24:20
20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured.
Some people see this as proof that in the Old Testament that God was unmerciful. The fact is that the principles of righteousness never changed. It was always God’s purpose from the beginning that we forgive our neighbor. What people don’t realize when they read the “eye for eye†principle is that it was actually “tort reform.†Lawyers in those days, just as today tried to exact extreme, disproportionate awards in civil cases. God said, “No.†He presented that principle, not to compel those who wound others, in every case, to be wounded in the same way, but to say, “I’d rather that you forgive someone who does harm to you. But as long as you are going to punish them, don’t make them suffer more than equal to the actual damages or harm they have caused to you.†If you really want to interpret Leviticus 24:20 as God compelling people to break arms and gouge out eyes and pull teeth, go ahead and join all the atheists who also use those kinds of hard-to-understand verses of Scripture to make God look bad. Then ask yourself if that kind of interpretation glorifies God and makes people love and trust Him more. Of course it doesn’t. That’s why atheists interpret it that way. But now think for a moment- and think fairly. How much harm can the average person do in a lifetime? How much grief and pain can they cause to others? Does that deserve an eternity- millions, billions, trillions of eons in burning hell? I dare ask: what scales do you measure with? God measures fairly. God is just. God is righteous. God would never have an eternally burning hell of torture because, not only would that be inconsistent with His character, it is illegal by His own law!
Here’s another point. We all know Jesus died the death we deserved for our sins. He suffered the penalty of sin for everyone. In case you haven’t noticed, the cross was taken down almost two thousand years ago. Jesus is not still suffering.
Revelation is a highly symbolic book. What is to be taken literally, and what is to be taken figuratively depends entirely upon the testimony of all Scripture that preceded Revelation. The question is, when Christ talked about “everlasting fire,†for example in Matthew 3:12 or 24:41, was He talking about a fire that burns people forever, or burns them up permanently- with eternal effectiveness? Let’s look at two examples of eternally burning fire in Biblical prophecy. First, in Isaiah 34:9,10, Isaiah says that God would turn Edom into a burning pitch that would burn forever.
Isaiah 34:9,10
9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever.
We know that Edom was indeed destroyed, but it is not presently the uninhabitable ecological disaster area described in Isaiah 34. Edom is the present day territory of southern Palestine. Granted, you and I might not wish to live there, but it is not the hell described here. “So,†you may say, “this is a future prediction for the end times.†How do you reconcile that with God’s promise of giving us a “new heaven and a new earth, “ which is unmarred by the results of sin? The “forever and ever†and “burning pitch†that “shall not be quenched night or day†is symbolic and spiritually metaphorical language for the wiping out of the Edomites, and their cessation of existence as a nation. If the smoke of that burning literally arose forever and ever, the new earth would have a serious air pollution problem!
Another example of symbolic eternal fire is Sodom, according to Jude:
Jude 7
7 ...as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
See the word, “example?†It’s from the Greek word, deigma, which means “example,†or “specimen.†Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of what God’s eternal fire looks like and what effects it has. Have you ever visited the Dead Sea, which is the present day site of the valley in which these cities once were? I did, about 15 years ago. I did not see any fire, but the ground is littered with cooled blobs of sulfur which are still flammable if you light them with a match. The altitude there is the lowest on the earth. The sea itself is a evaporative pond for a rich variety of minerals. Looking in the water you see white, crystalline humps of mineral deposits, and there is an extensive mining and recovery industry there. Go swimming in the Dead Sea. The water is slimy with minerals and the concentration of them makes you so buoyant in the water that you can easily float, holding your hands and feet out of the water, perfectly still, without treading water or paddling at all. If you have a small cut in your skin, the water stings, but exposure to those minerals heals the cut that same day. Even in God’s judgment there is healing! But you know something? There is no burning fire or smoke. Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorrah, the present day Dead Sea, serves as an example of what happens when cities and their inhabitants are struck by God’s eternal fire. The meaning here is clearly not never ending torment, but eternal finality and consequences that are irreversible. I believe that this is the meaning of Revelation 20:10 as well.
The Destruction of the Lost
The “eternal fire†has two purposes. It cleanses the earth and clears the ground for the renovation of the earth, and the making of a new earth. The second purpose is to put an end to sin and sinners. The lost, including Satan and his evil angels are consumed and cease to be. Scripture is plain on this, and Revelation does not contradict the tenor of Scripture.
Malachi 4:1
1 “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,†Says the LORD of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch.â€
Malachi 4:3
3 â€You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,†says the LORD of hosts.
Obadiah 1:16
16 Just as you drank on my holy hill, so all the nations will drink continually; they will drink and drink and be as if they had never been.
Ezekiel 28:18
18 “You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you. 19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you. You have become a horror, and shall be no more forever.â€
Leviticus 10:2
2 So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
Psalm 92:7
7 When the wicked spring up like grass, and when all the workers of iniquity flourish, it is that they may be destroyed forever.
I want to wrap up this segment now, and continue with the other letters to the churches. Here is a list of events that I believe happen at the end of the millennium:
1. The New Jerusalem travels from God’s dwelling place out in some galaxy in space, to the earth.
2. It lands upon the scorched and desolated earth.
3. The lost dead are resurrected into the same bodies they had before they died.
4. Satan, now free to deceive the nations again, gathers them together
5. Satan deceives them that they can take the New Jerusalem- it’s his last hope.
6. Their attack is interrupted by the white throne judgment of God
7. Fire comes down and consumes and destroys the lost into nothing. Some, who deserve “more stripes†(think of Hitler) take more burning than others, but this doesn’t go on endlessly.
8. Satan and his angels suffer what they deserve, and in time are consumed into nothing.
9. After the earth is completely cleansed by fire of sinners and sin, God spreads out new topsoil, vegetation and restores the animals, once wild and hostile, now cuddly and friendly.
10. The people in the city go out and make homes for themselves in a world made new.
11. Earth, once the place of Satan and sin, is now God’s new headquarters for His righteous universal kingdom.
The point I was trying to make from the beginning is that the Smyrna church, like all who share a saving faith in Jesus, is spared from the second death, which is the final, complete, destruction of the lost, a death from which there will never, ever, be any resurrection from eternity to eternity. The second death is eternal “bedtime†for the lost. It took a while to explain all this, but I believe it was worth it.
God’s ultimate purpose is to finish up with a universe of people who have seen and are eyewitnesses to His fairness, justice and mercy, and the righteousness and desirability of His law of love. In eternity, there will be no need for anyone to be dangled over or threatened with punishment to make they obey- they will know the beauty and truth and loveliness of God, and will live eternally in cheerful, willing, agreeing obedience to Him, not as slaves threatened with torture if they make one false move. When I was shown this beautiful concept of how God’s character and His plans for us really are, it changed my life. The old, traditional way of thinking couldn’t. That’s what is motivating me to share this with you.
1083
The Case Against Eternal Hellfire
So far I have presented strong Biblical evidence for the non-immortality of the human soul. That was post #79. Here, I said a few words about the character and mercy of God. I want to emphasize that not everything that is said about God from the pulpits of Christian churches is true- I’m sure you are shocked to hear that. The threat of eternal hellfire has been used for centuries to frighten people into obedience. It really doesn’t work, does it? Even if it did, a person persuaded to live a pure life, speak pure words and think pure thoughts in order to save their behinds from roasting forever- that person cannot reasonably be said to have a righteousness based on faith- but by compulsion, and by their own effort. That is the antithesis of the gospel. Lest we forget, Satan early on, both in the Jewish era and in the Christian era, came into the church and perverted the true religion of God with error. His object was to besmirch God’s reputation through injecting wrong teachings into God’s religion- teachings which portray God as if He were as vicious and cruel and dictatorial as Satan is. The teaching of eternal, never-ending torment was invented by Satan. Satan has invested God with his own character qualities. Believe you me, if Satan could, he would delight in seeing you and me flayed and barbecued endlessly. Unfortunately, Satan has succeeded in making a lot of otherwise faithful believers in God to believe the same about God. This is unspeakably sad, and it has caused more right minded people to stomp out of the Christian church in disgust and become hardened atheists, than any other false doctrine ever perpetrated on God’s people. It also leads many who remain professing Christians (or believers in other monotheistic, Creator-God based religions) to accept the notion that since eternal hell is so horrible a thing, and so necessary to take any measures to protect people from, no matter how extreme, that many people accept the heresy that religion and morality should be enforced by the State. Church plus State equals Antichrist (If this is new to you, read my post #26). That is the end product. All of this is at bitter, irreconcilable war against righteousness by faith in Jesus.
Now how can I say there is no eternal suffering when the verse I quoted above, Revelation 20:10 appears to say otherwise? Let’s look at it again:
Revelation 20:9,10
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
My main argument rests on the dominant position of Scripture, which argues for the destruction of the Devil and all the lost. I’ll present that in a moment. First, I wish to establish a few caveats about the traditional interpretation of the verse above. One is, you will notice a different treatment of the lost human beings of the army surrounding the city of God. It says they are devoured. Only the devil, the beast and the false prophet are “tormented day and night forever,†whatever that means. The first point is that the “eternal fire†isn't meant for lost sinners; it is meant for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
People don’t belong there. It is God’s will that all should repent and come to a saving belief in Him. Because the human soul is mortal- not immortal, and destructible- not indestructible, the lost simply won’t endure in the fire for very long. The other reason is because they don’t belong there, they won’t be there very long. The unsaved, being mortal, will not endure long in that fire.
From my point of view, I see God as a consistent person. God does not break His own law. Leviticus 24:20 presents the “eye for an eye, and tooth for a tooth†principle.
Leviticus 24:20
20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured.
Some people see this as proof that in the Old Testament that God was unmerciful. The fact is that the principles of righteousness never changed. It was always God’s purpose from the beginning that we forgive our neighbor. What people don’t realize when they read the “eye for eye†principle is that it was actually “tort reform.†Lawyers in those days, just as today tried to exact extreme, disproportionate awards in civil cases. God said, “No.†He presented that principle, not to compel those who wound others, in every case, to be wounded in the same way, but to say, “I’d rather that you forgive someone who does harm to you. But as long as you are going to punish them, don’t make them suffer more than equal to the actual damages or harm they have caused to you.†If you really want to interpret Leviticus 24:20 as God compelling people to break arms and gouge out eyes and pull teeth, go ahead and join all the atheists who also use those kinds of hard-to-understand verses of Scripture to make God look bad. Then ask yourself if that kind of interpretation glorifies God and makes people love and trust Him more. Of course it doesn’t. That’s why atheists interpret it that way. But now think for a moment- and think fairly. How much harm can the average person do in a lifetime? How much grief and pain can they cause to others? Does that deserve an eternity- millions, billions, trillions of eons in burning hell? I dare ask: what scales do you measure with? God measures fairly. God is just. God is righteous. God would never have an eternally burning hell of torture because, not only would that be inconsistent with His character, it is illegal by His own law!
Here’s another point. We all know Jesus died the death we deserved for our sins. He suffered the penalty of sin for everyone. In case you haven’t noticed, the cross was taken down almost two thousand years ago. Jesus is not still suffering.
Revelation is a highly symbolic book. What is to be taken literally, and what is to be taken figuratively depends entirely upon the testimony of all Scripture that preceded Revelation. The question is, when Christ talked about “everlasting fire,†for example in Matthew 3:12 or 24:41, was He talking about a fire that burns people forever, or burns them up permanently- with eternal effectiveness? Let’s look at two examples of eternally burning fire in Biblical prophecy. First, in Isaiah 34:9,10, Isaiah says that God would turn Edom into a burning pitch that would burn forever.
Isaiah 34:9,10
9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever.
We know that Edom was indeed destroyed, but it is not presently the uninhabitable ecological disaster area described in Isaiah 34. Edom is the present day territory of southern Palestine. Granted, you and I might not wish to live there, but it is not the hell described here. “So,†you may say, “this is a future prediction for the end times.†How do you reconcile that with God’s promise of giving us a “new heaven and a new earth, “ which is unmarred by the results of sin? The “forever and ever†and “burning pitch†that “shall not be quenched night or day†is symbolic and spiritually metaphorical language for the wiping out of the Edomites, and their cessation of existence as a nation. If the smoke of that burning literally arose forever and ever, the new earth would have a serious air pollution problem!
Another example of symbolic eternal fire is Sodom, according to Jude:
Jude 7
7 ...as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
See the word, “example?†It’s from the Greek word, deigma, which means “example,†or “specimen.†Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of what God’s eternal fire looks like and what effects it has. Have you ever visited the Dead Sea, which is the present day site of the valley in which these cities once were? I did, about 15 years ago. I did not see any fire, but the ground is littered with cooled blobs of sulfur which are still flammable if you light them with a match. The altitude there is the lowest on the earth. The sea itself is a evaporative pond for a rich variety of minerals. Looking in the water you see white, crystalline humps of mineral deposits, and there is an extensive mining and recovery industry there. Go swimming in the Dead Sea. The water is slimy with minerals and the concentration of them makes you so buoyant in the water that you can easily float, holding your hands and feet out of the water, perfectly still, without treading water or paddling at all. If you have a small cut in your skin, the water stings, but exposure to those minerals heals the cut that same day. Even in God’s judgment there is healing! But you know something? There is no burning fire or smoke. Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorrah, the present day Dead Sea, serves as an example of what happens when cities and their inhabitants are struck by God’s eternal fire. The meaning here is clearly not never ending torment, but eternal finality and consequences that are irreversible. I believe that this is the meaning of Revelation 20:10 as well.
The Destruction of the Lost
The “eternal fire†has two purposes. It cleanses the earth and clears the ground for the renovation of the earth, and the making of a new earth. The second purpose is to put an end to sin and sinners. The lost, including Satan and his evil angels are consumed and cease to be. Scripture is plain on this, and Revelation does not contradict the tenor of Scripture.
Malachi 4:1
1 “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,†Says the LORD of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch.â€
Malachi 4:3
3 â€You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,†says the LORD of hosts.
Obadiah 1:16
16 Just as you drank on my holy hill, so all the nations will drink continually; they will drink and drink and be as if they had never been.
Ezekiel 28:18
18 “You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you. 19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you. You have become a horror, and shall be no more forever.â€
Leviticus 10:2
2 So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
Psalm 92:7
7 When the wicked spring up like grass, and when all the workers of iniquity flourish, it is that they may be destroyed forever.
I want to wrap up this segment now, and continue with the other letters to the churches. Here is a list of events that I believe happen at the end of the millennium:
1. The New Jerusalem travels from God’s dwelling place out in some galaxy in space, to the earth.
2. It lands upon the scorched and desolated earth.
3. The lost dead are resurrected into the same bodies they had before they died.
4. Satan, now free to deceive the nations again, gathers them together
5. Satan deceives them that they can take the New Jerusalem- it’s his last hope.
6. Their attack is interrupted by the white throne judgment of God
7. Fire comes down and consumes and destroys the lost into nothing. Some, who deserve “more stripes†(think of Hitler) take more burning than others, but this doesn’t go on endlessly.
8. Satan and his angels suffer what they deserve, and in time are consumed into nothing.
9. After the earth is completely cleansed by fire of sinners and sin, God spreads out new topsoil, vegetation and restores the animals, once wild and hostile, now cuddly and friendly.
10. The people in the city go out and make homes for themselves in a world made new.
11. Earth, once the place of Satan and sin, is now God’s new headquarters for His righteous universal kingdom.
The point I was trying to make from the beginning is that the Smyrna church, like all who share a saving faith in Jesus, is spared from the second death, which is the final, complete, destruction of the lost, a death from which there will never, ever, be any resurrection from eternity to eternity. The second death is eternal “bedtime†for the lost. It took a while to explain all this, but I believe it was worth it.
God’s ultimate purpose is to finish up with a universe of people who have seen and are eyewitnesses to His fairness, justice and mercy, and the righteousness and desirability of His law of love. In eternity, there will be no need for anyone to be dangled over or threatened with punishment to make they obey- they will know the beauty and truth and loveliness of God, and will live eternally in cheerful, willing, agreeing obedience to Him, not as slaves threatened with torture if they make one false move. When I was shown this beautiful concept of how God’s character and His plans for us really are, it changed my life. The old, traditional way of thinking couldn’t. That’s what is motivating me to share this with you.
1083
Look what the cat dragged in.
The Raven challenge!
"dangling over or threatening with punishment" is an absollutely sick way to view God. Jesus came to set us free from this tripe not to enslave us.
God help us and protect us from this nonsense.
Shalom
Ted:-6
God help us and protect us from this nonsense.
Shalom
Ted:-6
-
telaquapacky
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:00 pm
The Raven challenge!
Hi, Ted!
Hi, Snooze!
Glad we're all on this journey togerther!
Hi, Snooze!
Glad we're all on this journey togerther!
Look what the cat dragged in.