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Scrat wrote: I don't exactly know what is going on there in the system but one thing is for sure, the management of this clusterfook is the epitomy of incompetence. Florida went through 4 hurricanes last year. Nothing even remotely like this happened.

I'm really beginning to wonder just what is going on. The people in the disaster dept were told the hospitals were evacuated when in fact doctors, nurses and critically injured people were left behind and essentially abandoned. So far they have not gotten any aid whatsoever. Doctors are doing triage, they have made the decision not to waste resources on old people to keep more critical younger people alive so old people are put outside to die.

I just heard that the hospital ship that was promised IS 2 WEEKS AWAY!!

I think that the chain of command has run for the hills. The politicians have nice comfortable command centers FAR AWAY FROM THE POINTS OF NEED. They rely on information that is old and have on sense of what is really going on. They have no good idea of where to put what when.

I think that this is as bad as it is because of the local politicians. I think that their heads should roll. They're paid too much.


Sounds like you are the expert in emergency management:wah: . Are you going there to offer your advice?

Armchair Generals:-5

canaan wrote: what? you didn't hear? Bush is the one who built the levees and made them substandard just hoping a cat. 4 would blow through! Why, he is the one who prayed for the hurricane and when the levees didn't break right after the hurricane he sent his agents down with jack hammers to finish the job. and then flew over just so he could laugh at them. Wasting gas and everything! :rolleyes:


You are a bully.

Canaan is the one who will save the day. We must all drop what we are doing and look to him/her for answers. THere is a horrible thing happening in New Orleans and its been 4 days with no food/water to these people. We have been dropping supplies overseas for decades to help refugees of war and we can't help these people in our own country? Its mindboggling to me!

No need to get in an argument about your douche bag idol W the redneck jerk, where is he and what he is doing to help these people? Sitting on his corn sucking bum in the posh white house. There are guestrooms there, cant he accomodate some poor family?:mad:

When people have to reach so far down in the barrel that they criticize the President for wanting to see what is likely, this nation’s worst ever natural disaster, they are exposing their political desperation.

Blaming local politicians because relief isn’t available to respond to a disaster beyond anyone’s imagination is a cheap shot. Having said that, New Orleans is a community where the people have bought into graft and corruption as being the norm. Their politicians are no doubt a reflection of their constituency. That’s the way it usually is. You reap what you sow.

Nobody asked looters to go wild. Nobody planning for this sort of thing would plan for people shooting at rescue helicopters. Violence is not what you expect from people needing to be rescued.

I have said for years that government programs have nurtured a sub culture that would become predatory when supplies get short. The political left with their socialist bent has taught them that they are entitled. Now, like spoiled children, when they don’t get what they think they are entitled to, they will take it, using force if it isn’t handed over.

We will experience the consequences of this entitlement culture every time we have shortages. Expect it. It is now a reality.

....i am praying LE can gain some control. but they and the medical workers and all the people trying to help are exhausted and hungry too.

Relief workers face 'urban warfare'

Here's an idea: Why don't all the people in this thread who are using this as an excuse to snipe and bitch and gripe at each other, be snide and sarcastic, and place blame, put all that energy into something that's actually worthwhile and helpful?? Like say, I dunno, send money to the relief funds?

This is a real-life catastrophe we are witnessing, safe here behind our computers, and the people that are using it as a punchline or the opportunity to take a shot at someone really disgust me.



How's that for bullying?????

Scrat wrote: Clint I am not a general per say but one reason I make as much as I do in my field is because I can think outside of the box and get things done. I have a knack for getting things done under adverse conditions.

I also know a lot of about Erwin Rommel, one of the best generals of WWII. He had a knack for getting things done in adverse situations. He won the second battle of El Alamein by being there at the front with the troops, getting shot at with them and knowing everything that happened as it happened.

I just heard that there is little or no communication of any kind out of the city, no police radios, cell phones or even cans with strings attached. The people in charge need to be where the battle is, not in some cushy status appropriate ''command center" 200 miles away.

They are not on the scene therefore they cannot make timely decisions as the situation demands. Yes, if I were there I would be kicking asses and taking names, I would not be nice and polite, the people there would be very motivated to obtain the absence of my presence by doing things right. The first time.
Having the ability to get things done is what usually qualifies people to be in command centers.

I would be very interested to know how you would improve the communications out of the city. When the communication infrastructure is destroyed how can you blame the people who no longer have it?

Moving the command center into the midst of the problem won’t improve anything. Where, in a city the size of New Orleans would you put it? Where would it be accessible? Where would it have a reliable source of electricity? Where could those who man the command center go to get the necessary rest to make good decisions? The last thing you want is a command center that is in distress itself.

I can assure you that the people manning command centers are motivated well beyond anything you could accomplish with a bad mouth. They are motivated by a deep compassion and desire to bring the situation under control for the sake of the people in distress. Believe it or not they are people who have dedicated their lives to public service because they are motivated by helping people.

BabyRider wrote: Here's an idea: Why don't all the people in this thread who are using this as an excuse to snipe and bitch and gripe at each other, be snide and sarcastic, and place blame, put all that energy into something that's actually worthwhile and helpful?? Like say, I dunno, send money to the relief funds?

This is a real-life catastrophe we are witnessing, safe here behind our computers, and the people that are using it as a punchline or the opportunity to take a shot at someone really disgust me.



How's that for bullying?????


How about applying to go there to help? I did.

How about filling in on the job for a National Guard member who is going? I was asked to do that today and if all goes well that is where I will be for the next month. It's three and a half hours from home.

You assume way too much Baby.

Clint wrote:

You assume way too much Baby.
Yeah, well, I did make the concession of saying "Those of you who are...." so as far as I can tell, I didn't "assume" a thing. About you, anyway.

BabyRider wrote: Yeah, well, I did make the concession of saying "Those of you who are...." so as far as I can tell, I didn't "assume" a thing. About you, anyway.
Yeah, well, I was just feeling like a Bully.

Now that I have it out of my system...sorry...I see what you mean.

I am sensitive to the fact that I am a Brit. and therefore not qualified to comment on events in the US.....I have family in the US (some in New Orleans) so have more than a passing interest in events over there. I also work for an American owned company. I have been watching CNN and FOX news since Sunday and have been shocked by the aftermath of 'Katrina'......as I stated in a previous post, The goings on at the convention centre are horrendous. The world is looking at the US , the most influential and powerful country in the world, and wondering what the hell is happening....where is the organisation, the aid, the help. 4 days without food......you guys here at FG have all the right ideas....

I am sad for what is going on at the moment, but we have to be HOPEFUL for the future. If someone could post some info for us in the UK to donate to I would be grateful.....seems a totally inadequate gesture but the best we can do for now....the very best of luck to all of you in the South.

I only read the last two pages of this. It reminds me of the N.O. streets, so I didn't wade any farther. In case it hasn't been mentioned yet:



They found Fats Domino



NEW YORK(AP)

Fats Domino apparently rode out the hurricane in his New Orleans home and was rescued by boat from his flooded neighborhood, his daughter Karen Domino White said Thursday.

The 77-year-old R&B legend had been reported missing Thursday by his longtime agent, Al Embry, and his niece, Checquoline Davis.

White said late Thursday that she saw a photograph of her father that had been taken Monday by the New Orleans Times-Picayune. The photo showed Domino, whose real name is Antoine Domino, in jeans and a blue-striped shirt being helped off a boat by rescuers.

"We're very relieved," White said in a telephone interview.

White said she has been unable to speak to Domino and had no information on his wife, Rosemary, or any other family members in the flooded city.

Domino, who has rarely appeared in public in recent years, has a home in the 9th ward, a low-lying area of the flooded city. On Sunday night, Embry said he spoke over the phone to Domino, who told him that he planned to remain in New Orleans despite the order to evacuate.

Getting information on possible missing persons has been nearly impossible as phone lines for hospitals and police haven't been working.

Domino has sold more than 110 million records in his long career, including the legendary singles "Blueberry Hill" and "Ain't That a Shame."

His 1950 recording of "The Fat Man" is sometimes called the first real rock 'n' roll record. He was among the first honorees to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

There is absolutely no excuse for any US state to have babies dying on the streets in the aftermath of a disaster. The inability of our leader to immediately provide help , supplies and relief is unforgiveable. I have lived to see us deploy a sky full of planes dropping supplies on the ground, for foreign countries in need.

The situation on the coast is serving to show our enemies how unprepared we are to deal with disaster. I also am amazed that the first thing we always do is to ask the middle class here to reach into their pockets and help. How about lets dip into the mega wealth pot of money and resources we are always boasting to have, and straighten this situation out. No, as usual here its always help our own last. I am sick and ashamed to see the news coverage down in New Orleans. Many many people are going to have a tremendous change of feelings towards our leaders. Bush has made a big bo bo . That hurricane did more than raise gas prices. The poor handling of this crisis is going to affect the course of everything that happens here in the following year. Ive always known in my heart that we were not the good guys we are always professing to be. The value we place on life, and the quality of life we deem acceptable for a good portion of our population ,is becoming last on our list of priorities. A good man will always make sure his own family is safe and secure , before he leaves them to go out and help others. If he neglects or risks 3 people at home, and helps 100 strangers his value as a human being and his character is 0. Heros do not risk their own men. They risk their own neck to save others. Leaders Lead. They are shining examples of humanataian action, and their actions inspire others. All of the heart ripping news coverage we watch here is a diversion. Human suffering falls into the realm of entertainment, presented to distract us from a true awareness of where we stand today. Will the resources of the country weve loved be there to support any of us , when we are in need? There comes a time to analyze what truly is going on in a bad relationship, and make changes. Or stay, and fall together.

Weeder, I love you like a stranger, baby, but your post disgusts me. The main thing wrong here is exactly that you, the Washington bureaucrats, and everyone else wants someone else to do something, then cast blame anywhere but at your own feet. I'm sure you feel better making the government responsible. This is one time that FJBear's attitude of do something, anything, but do it now is perfect.



Yes it would be wonderful if logistics wizards swept down and organized everything. They're down there somewhere, I'm sure, blaming someone for not having their stuff ready as requested.



You know who my hero is? I saw him on TV last night. These two old gents, had to be in their 60's, had a boat & were patrolling the neighborhood. When they found someone (of course it was always someone weak, sick, or old; that's all that were left) they would help them into the boat and, wading, pull the boat & victim out to where they could get help. As soon as they unloaded the victim and handed them over to rescuers, they returned to find more. They didn't sit and wait and blame; they acted! They are not army, Red Cross, or Salvation Army; they are neighbors. And they are heroes.

Accountable wrote: Weeder, I love you like a stranger, baby, but your post disgusts me. The main thing wrong here is exactly that you, the Washington bureaucrats, and everyone else wants someone else to do something, then cast blame anywhere but at your own feet. I'm sure you feel better making the government responsible. This is one time that FJBear's attitude of do something, anything, but do it now is perfect.



Yes it would be wonderful if logistics wizards swept down and organized everything. They're down there somewhere, I'm sure, blaming someone for not having their stuff ready as requested.



You know who my hero is? I saw him on TV last night. These two old gents, had to be in their 60's, had a boat & were patrolling the neighborhood. When they found someone (of course it was always someone weak, sick, or old; that's all that were left) they would help them into the boat and, wading, pull the boat & victim out to where they could get help. As soon as they unloaded the victim and handed them over to rescuers, they returned to find more. They didn't sit and wait and blame; they acted! They are not army, Red Cross, or Salvation Army; they are neighbors. And they are heroes.


that is awesome! I LOVE to hear stories like that...about the "old gents". however, aren't some people just in a situation where the simply cannot "act" right now... all they can do is sit and wait?

Sure. But hundreds, maybe thousands, think they are in that position and are not. the convention center is full of able bodied people who are starving while they wait, rather than walking up the street to see what they can find. One lady found a pallet of orange juice to share with the diabetics. It hadn't moved for 4 days, yet people were starving of thirst.

These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will." about time.

i think they've run out of places to take the people, the astrodome is full. also, evacuations were at a standstill because of the shooters...that has to get under control before they can carry on with humanitarian aid.

Scrat wrote: If they can get troops there why can't the get people out? That is half of the problem.
I just saw on NBC one bus driver says they won't go in because people are shooting everybody. The power of the press. I'll bet the shooting is very rare, but if it bleeds it leads.

Accountable wrote: I just saw on NBC one bus driver says they won't go in because people are shooting everybody. The power of the press. I'll bet the shooting is very rare, but if it bleeds it leads.
Yes, Scrat's intitlement culture is doing its thing. The fruit of socialism.

I am a resident of Louisiana but away from the disaster. I also work for an emergency response agency. Let me assure you that this is a disaster made by local and state officials. The state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans were totally unprepared for this storm. Oh, they said they were. They assured us they had a plan. They did not! Hundreds of buses and boats along with trailers full of food and supplies were sent from other Louisiana cities to NO only to be turned away by city officials. They were told to go home! Whoever was in charge, if anyone was, had not idea what to do with the supplies and equipment. They were still in denial and rejected the help.

The cities pumping system, designed to pump water out of the city, was unmanned. How can you have a major hurricane approaching and leave the pumping stations unmanned?!!! Mayor Nagin can cuss for the cameras all he wants but he failed his city, he failed as a leader. Gov Blanco has that deer in the headlights look. Decades of political corruption in LA has now paid horrific dividends.

To add to the problem, gangs have taken over the streets. Rescuers are unable to do their job because of the lawlessness and danger. Let's put the blame where it is due. It's starts with failure of local government. It is exacerbated by absence of leadership from the governor's mansion. Engineering also failed NO. Scientists, enginneers, politiicans, they all failed to adequate anticipate this disaster. The federal government is the least of the problems. In fact, it seems to be the only entity to have a plan. It seems like a lifetime, but we are only a few days into this; the logistics are a nightmare. The organization must be constructed from the ground up after the fact because of the failure of local and state governments.

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of all the partisans trying to make a federal issue, pun intended, out of this. This is not a Bush problem. NO was a disaster waiting to happen long before Bush ever dreamed of the White House. NO has had years to put a plan in effect. They didn't. This storm is an indictment of Louisiana, not the federal government.

Our state economy faces long term problems. NO will not be rebuilt. It shouldn't be. Everything will have to be razed and started from scratch. Businesses won't return. Families won't have jobs or homes to go back to. NO, as we knew it, is no more.

I have also been on the other end of a category 4 hurricane having ridden out Hugo from my Charleston, SC apartment in 1989. People affected by Hugo felt abandoned and criticized federal response also. When you are in that situation a day seems like a month. A minute, a day. But it takes time to respond, especially when the state was totally clueless and unprepared. No one had an idea what to ask the government for, no one in LA had a clue how to attack this problem. Remember, it was at least 24 hours after the levees broke before local officials admitted they had a serious problem. Quit letting my state officials and NO ofiicials off the hook by blaming the federal government. The accountability for this tragedy lies squarely in NO and at the state capital. Our leaders were negligent and must be held accountable. If we don't take this opportunity to change our state leadership and how business is done, the entire state will wither and die. The flow of criticism should focus on LA, not DC.

Where are you, Adam? PM me, if you don't want to make it public. I'm a LA native.

Scrat wrote: Sometimes it takes a bully to get something done, especially when everyone is sitting around with their heads where the sun never shines.

It's easy Clint, the command post would be on the 1/2 mile stretch of I-10 downtown that is dry. Not in Baton Rouge.

You need. 3 480 volt 500 amp diesel generators and a trailer full of communication equipment that has channels for military, civilian and air communications. The police radios are already there. All of the people it takes to run it. Probably about 50. Get some type of aircontol going.

That takes care of the communication problem.

6 choppers dedicated to the command post only. 2 in reserve, 1 for the needs of the CP and 3 to go out and scout around and do things of general utility, locally.

Set up an emergency hospital if you can, a small one. Dedicate 2 personel choppers to it.

Boots on the ground in boats, whatever with strict orders to report back what is needed and where. This will take about 30 people. The rest of the force takes care of law and order.

That takes care of the onscene problem.

Let the people come to you, have food and water ready along with means of evacuation that is reliable. Evac them to a central point that has facilities to care for them. Get them out as quickly as possible. Run choppers 24 hours a day.

That is how you evac people.

You call Baton Rouge and say we need this here and that there at this time.

If it doesn't happen in a timely manner you take the chopper back to BR and you start jumping down peoples throats. If the problem is not there you go further upstream and repeat the process.

Any whiners you find are replaced. "I can't" just isn't good enough when people are dying. You need proactive people for this type of work.



I agree Clint but I don't believe the people in the command center have the foggiest idea of what they are doing. I'm sure they can build whorehouses and Casinos but they can't clean up the mess that they have there.



Babyrider. In my defence I will ask you a question.

Have you ever seen a more poorly managed enterprise than this?



I think not.

And yes, when it comes to government I am the ultimate cynic. :p
General Scrat arrives on the scene of the nation’s largest natural disaster. “Get a trailer and a couple of generators and put them in the middle of the mess” he says. “Now get some kind of air control going” he says (this time with lots of authority in his voice)". “ Get up an emergency hospital if you can”…” and I mean it”…”I want it now”. “I want you 30 people to go out and find out what’s going on”. “The rest of you (by the way, how many of you are there?)… take care of law and order”. “And, Oh yeah, Go tell everybody to come here to this trailer if they need anything”….Ha, ha, ha, I can’t go on. Scrat, they would laugh you out of Dodge. You are having illusions of grandeur. Your view of this problem is WAY to simplistic.

I’m just curious Scrat. Have you ever even been involved in a tabletop exercise for a disaster?

I'm in Shreveport and like most other LA cities and many in Texas, we are becoming a refugee camp. Our hospitals are full, our police and EMS are working to capacity. Hotels, coliseums, gymnasiums, all bursting at the seams. Louisianians are doing all they can to help feed and shelter these people and the effort will be long-term.

I will say what you don't see much on the news is all the private citizens from the NO area in their boats and pirogues out rescueiing people. You don't hear about the families that have emptied their bank accounts to buy food and water and have stationed themselves on the outskirts of the city to meet refugees as they escape the city on foot. It's much more dramatic and sensational to focus on the gangs.

Like most major urban cities, NO has its share of the criminal element. But the people of LA are largely generous people who would give you the shirt off their backs to help a neighboor and they are doing so. For every shooting you hear about, there are thousands of private citizens, churches, civic organizations going to extreme measures to provide assistance to our neighbors in south LA.

Yaaaaaaaay Humanity!!

Accountable wrote: Yaaaaaaaay Humanity!!


I second that motion. That is where the real relief will come from.

I just heard they're opening Kelly Air Force Base here in S.A. to accept refugees.

No. I've only been involved in real ones.

In all my years I have never seen anything like this. The US has had MAJOR disasters before. But you have to remember that the effected areas are greater in area than the whole of the UK.

But LA has always been kind of strange. Alabama and Mississippi have got their act together. Why has LA let this happen?

President Bush says FEMA is moving too slow.

"There's a lot of aid surging toward those who've been affected. Millions of gallons of water. Millions of tons of food. We're making progress about pulling people out of the Superdome," the president said.

For the first time, however, he stopped defending his administration's response and criticized it. "A lot of people are working hard to help those who've been affected. The results are not acceptable," he said. "I'm heading down there right now."

More:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050902/D8CC53PG0.html

That's one thing GW never got. He's never understood the power of presence.

Accountable wrote: That's one thing GW never got. He's never understood the power of presence.
Sounds like he may be getting it. I don't understand why he pulls back so much. He has shown us he has what it takes to lead but it takes a huge disaster to get him moving.

I definately agree that those selfless humans are heros. It would be wonderful if we had a hero at the helm of our country. My comments stand.And neither you nor anyone else know what I do for others. It isnt covered on CNN. And that is the way it should be.

To me President Clinton was despicable but I can honestly say that if he had had 9-11 and Katrina on his watch I would have been behind him, supporting his actions (providing he took action). I think President Bush has made some serious mistakes. I also think any President would make mistakes, given the same situations to deal with. He has information to use in his decision making that none of us are privy to. I can’t judge his decisions based on that alone. All I can assess is whether or not he is in action, making things happen.

I think that taking shots at the leader in times like this is risky business. Only those with unique and accurate information on which to base their opinions should be speaking. Rumor mongering and political hate speach is extreemly dangerous right now.

New Orleans rocked by huge blasts

The New Orleans riverfront has been hit by a series of massive blasts, and fires are raging in the area.

Details are sketchy, but the blast is believed to have involved a chemical factory. Police have sent a team to see if toxic fumes have been released.

The news came as extra troops were sent to quell lawlessness in the city, where thousands are stranded without food or water in Hurricane Katrina's aftermath.

More:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4207202.stm

weeder wrote: [...]My comments stand.[...]
As does my disgust. Yay freedom.

right now, watching FOX cable, shots fired . police have weapons drawn and police vehicles coming in with more weapons. it's a war zone.

Scrat wrote: Here you go Bez.



http://www.kiro710.com/events.jsp





I don't think we need help resource wise. We need more organization on the ground so we can get resources where they are needed and get people out.





The Red Cross.



http://www.redcross.org/


Thanks for that Scrat....these funds will be needed in the future. I see what you're saying about organisation that's why so many of us feel so useless & frustrated. I myself am an organiser and to see people just sitting waiting for help to come is well...hard. I applaud the ones that are sticking their heads above the parapet and finding food eg. the oranges etc and taking people to safety. These are the unsung heroes....they need more of these at the moment

it's so frustrating, i can't get details, but i heard some firefighters and their families are being held hostage. ...a bus carrying refugees has crashed, one dead, some injured. MRE's are being distributed at convention center. and here comes the cavalry!!

Why has LA let this happen?


From what I've heard and read the Louisiana state government has been asking the federal government for help repeatedly over the past 10 years to help build the levy's higher because they knew this disaster would stryke. The federal government basically told them they would not dole out billions of dollars for something that may never happen.

A bus carrying refugees did crash traveling north on I49. 1 dead, 10 injured some critically. Haven't heard about hostages. Things will now get better with the arrival of troops.

Rainbow that is true but ironically the breeches in the levy occurred in places not slated for repair. Either way, the levees were built to withstand a Category 3. No one, esp local and state government, should act surprised at the situation facing them now. They simply didn't prepare.