Kat wrote: So much for the three things that are never discussed in public: sex, politics and religion.
First, religion and God are not the same. In fact, it is safe to say that God and religion are polar opposites. Have doubts? Look at the current situation in the Catholic Church. (No, I am not picking on the Catholic Church. It was the first example that I thought everyone would be familiar with.)
With that out of the way, yes I believe there is a devil, as I believe there is a God. We see examples of both on a daily basis.In Ireland, these subjects,Religion,Sex and Politics is alway's discussed in public. Its their favourite topics:guitarist
capt_buzzard wrote: In Ireland, these subjects,Religion,Sex and Politics is alway's discussed in public. Its their favourite topics:guitarist
You can tell my name by my number in this post. It is 666
Be afraid. Be very afraid. My number is there to tell you that you should fall on your knees and empty your pockets for me. Cash and money orders are to be made out to me at 666.
OO-oo-oo-oo- Give me your money. Give it right away to 666
capt_buzzard wrote: Most of us here believe in God. The Christians and Jews and some believe in Allah ect. But how many of us believe in The Devil - Lucifer - Satan?
Yep. He's the most subtle dude in the garden. Appears as an angel of light.
So convincing, as a matter of fact, he deceived the angels first. So clever, that God Himself had to come up with something REALLY radical to save us from his persuasiveness.
You see, he's the kind of fella we WANT to believe. Trouble is........he's wrong.
kalanu wrote: What biblical references can you provide to substantiate your claims regarding hell?.
That's just it. Dante didn't write the Bible and his vision happened a long time after the Bible was written.
Nevertheless, he was convinced God sent him that vision, and the Angel Virgil himself to guide him through Hell. It even included a few nice details like the gates of Hell being thrown down by Jesus as he passed through on the way to Heaven.
Doesn't the Bible say that Jesus, "descended into Hell, then ascended to Heaven"?
If you read it, it rings very true. The punishments for the crimes and sins fit perfectly, and yet I like the theme that there is a way out of Hell, implying that God will never give up on his childen, even after they die.
If you can't learn to love God while you are alive, then perhaps if you learn enough about evil after you die, you can still learn to love God and be redeemed.
Dante makes it a point to say that very few, (and only one at a time) manage to escape Hell. The torment is infinite for eternity, since most of the sinners don't want to believe. Still, it's possible for everyone to escape, of their own free will.
Just has a nice logical-sounding ring to it, don't you think?
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
I believe there is good and evil in this world. The bible states that satan is a fallen Angel, and I agree with that. I believe that Angels serve the Lord and demons serve satan, or the devil.
When we choose between right and wrong we do so on our own free will, the devil will put his two cents in (call it lust, greed-whatever you will), and so will God (call it your conscience) , but ultimately it's up to us to decide.
kalanu wrote: I believe in Satan, and specifically the Dantean version of Hell. A place where God sends insane souls to try to get their attention.
If a soul can learn enough about evil in Hell, then they can climb past Satan in the final bolgia and follow the chimney to Heaven. As shown to Dante by the angel Virgil.
Not that I'm planning on going there, I'm trying to be the best Christian I can. But it's nice to know that God never gives up on us, even after we go to Hell.
=================
What biblical references can you provide to substantiate your claims regarding hell?
chicagolosina wrote: I believe there is good and evil in this world. The bible states that satan is a fallen Angel, and I agree with that. I believe that Angels serve the Lord and demons serve satan, or the devil.
When we choose between right and wrong we do so on our own free will, the devil will put his two cents in (call it lust, greed-whatever you will), and so will God (call it your conscience) , but ultimately it's up to us to decide.
One thing that a lot of people tend to forget, because it is too apparent, and that is the fact that Jesus used to cast the demons out of people. Everybody is looking for the devil personified but don't realize that he is borrowing the body to make his works grow. If you don't see the devil then he probably doen't exist. Popular theory that is pushed by the baddies.
Everlasting Fire, Eternal Fire Matt. 25:41. The meaning of "everlasting fire" is graphically illustrated and explained by the following Bible passages:
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" Jude 7. Sodom "was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her" [i.e., no man could stop the city's destruction] Lam. 4:6. "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that afterward should live ungodly" 2 Pet. 2:6. "As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, saith the Lord; so shall no man abide there. neither shall any son of man dwell therein" Jer. 50:40, cf. 49:18. God burned Sodom and Gomorrah with eternal fire, as an example of the fate of all who would live wickedly. The result of the fire was that (a) Sodom and Gomorrah were quickly turned into ashes; (b) they ceased to burn; and (c) were never again inhabited. This shows that the "eternal fire" which destroys the wicked is everlasting in its result, and not in its duration.*
Forever. "The smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever" Rev. 14:11. This text does not say the shrieks of their torment ascend up forever and ever. Smoke and ashes are the end products of fire. Pointing to the Lord's vengeance by fire on the wicked, Isaiah says, "It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up forever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever. But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it" Isa. 34:10,11, (see vv.1, 2). David declared that the wicked will consume away into smoke; and Malachi says they will be reduced to ashes. See Ps. 37:20: Mal. 4:3. Further. there are relative degrees of punishment for the lost; some will suffer longer than others, according to their deeds, but all the wicked shall ultimately cease to exist. See Rev. 22:12; Ps. 37:10; 21:8-10. While the fire burns there will be no relief from its torment. See Rev. 20:10. Notice also from Matt. 25:41 that the fire is prepared for the devil and his angels, who will perish in it, and never return to life. See Ezek. 28:18, 19. Only those who stubbornly identify with Satan's rebellion will join him in this fiery extinction. Thus we see that the words "forever," and "everlasting" can express an unbroken period of time.
Instances of the use of the Hebrew word "forever" (olam) which simply indicate an uninterrupted finite period:
* Jonah 1:17; 2:6. Here, forever means three days.
* Ex. 21:6; 1 Sam. 1:22, 11, 28. Here it means the lifetime of a man.
* Ps. 37:20; Rev. 20:9, 10. Here it means until the wicked are devoured or consumed.
Satan also will be destroyed. Isn't that great?
Anything else I can help you with?
Thanks. I remember reading that we are God. Where is this passage?
kalanu wrote: That we are God is not written in the Bible.
Here is the problem:
The serpent said to the woman, "You will not die; {5} for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." -- Genesis 3:4-5
You will be like God ... Ezekiel 28:1-9
The prince of Tyre here is representative of lucifer.
The word of the LORD came to me: (2) Mortal, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD: Because your heart is proud and you have said, "I am a god; I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas," yet you are but a mortal, and no god, though you compare your mind with the mind of a god. -- Ezekiel 28:1-2
I believe that when we are born we come to the world as a spirit/soul in a body. We are neither good nor bad. But we have choices which we choose to live our lives. Within us there is the capacity to do what's right (which I call good) and the capacity to do wrong (that which is against nature or our consciences - I call that bad).
That within us which guides us to right or good I believe is our God within. That which tempts us to doing things that might not be right but serves only to our own personal enjoyment/pleasure is the devil within.
So what is that within us? Are they spirits - God (good) and the Devil (evil)? Or are they something that are just part of our own spirit?
You are taking a literalist view of the Bible which I simply do not go along with. The Bible is midrash from cover to cover and contains a great deal of metaphor with some kernels of history spread throughout.
Hell is not a place but a state of being or a state of mind that exists here on earth in the here and now. We humans create our own hells and that is what Jesus was warning us against.
kalanu wrote: That we are God is not written in the Bible.
Here is the problem:
The serpent said to the woman, "You will not die; {5} for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." -- Genesis 3:4-5
You will be like God ... Ezekiel 28:1-9
The prince of Tyre here is representative of lucifer.
The word of the LORD came to me: (2) Mortal, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD: Because your heart is proud and you have said, "I am a god; I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas," yet you are but a mortal, and no god, though you compare your mind with the mind of a god. -- Ezekiel 28:1-2
I hope you are not too disappointed?
I was incredulous that I read it and therefore it was a point that I checked several times. It was in the book of revelations. I'll look it up and find it.
what disturbs me is that you speak as if you are an authority.
Your interpretation is yours. I value your opinion but just because the bible has certain words strung together in a certain order does not necessarily change my point of view. It also has other words in other places that may tell me something entirely different.
kalanu wrote: Michael the Archangel Defeats the Great Dragon: Revelation 12:7-10 (KJV)
Revelation 12:7-10 A supernatural battle occurs between the Angels of God and the Fallen Angels of Satan. The Angels of God prevail:
7 And there was war in Heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon; and the Dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in Heaven.
9 And the Great Dragon was cast out, that Old Serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the Earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven, 'Now is come Salvation, and Strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the Power of His Christ: for the Accuser of our Brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God Day and Night.'
If you cannot believe this, you cannot believe anything. If this is not truth, nothing is truth.
Read this passage carefully, it tells you who the devil is. The book of Job is another good source for the reality of satan.
:yh_devil.......he just doesn't look like this!
I used to go to St Michael's College HS, here in Toronto. It is considered to be the Harvard of schools. Quite familiar with St Michael. Church seven times a week. Enjoyed the picture that was created with Milton. Very visual.
I'll still stick to the devil being ephemeral. Slides in and out of whoever is not paying attention and gets them to do his bidding. You can quote all you want from all the different parts of the Bible but that is not simplifying anything it is just feeding your ego.
He's hard to see but if you see him often enough you begin to be able to dismiss him and send him packing. There is nothing in the universe that is not of God.
So koan is "disturbed". Nice judgment on your part. Not called for as the Bible clearly tells we are not to judge others.
We don't know you background. Well you don't know mine. So what? Are you professing to have the red phone direct line to the Father. Are you claiming to hand and understand all the truth. If you are, in my opinion anyone who pretends to know it all is deluding themselvs.
I've have many years at university and what I have learned is how little I really know and how much there is to learn.
Micah 6:8 "He has told you, O mortal, what is good and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness. and to walk humbly with your God?"
Num 31 is somewhat contradictory in that God apparently condones and promotes war crimes. Nice guy!
So koan is "disturbed". Nice judgment on your part. Not called for as the Bible clearly tells we are not to judge others.
We don't know you background. Well you don't know mine. So what? Are you professing to have the red phone direct line to the Father. Are you claiming to hand and understand all the truth. If you are, in my opinion anyone who pretends to know it all is deluding themselvs.
I've have many years at university and what I have learned is how little I really know and how much there is to learn.
Micah 6:8 "He has told you, O mortal, what is good and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness. and to walk humbly with your God?"
Num 31 is somewhat contradictory in that God apparently condones and promotes war crimes. Nice guy!
Shalom
Ted :-6
Thanks, Ted. :-6
I was really busy for a while and COULDN'T BELIEVE my good fortune at kalanu's post referenced here. Did he actually compare himself to Christ????
Sorry to speak as if you are not here, kalanu, but it seems you need a little humility.
kalanu wrote: The common mistake in bible 'interpretation' is that there is no need for interpretation. If it says 'thou shalt not kill', for instance, that is what it means.
this is quite ridiculous on its face.
the bible wasn't written in english. it is only through interpretation that the commandment has been warped from its original wording, which was - not precisely of course, but as best translated - thou shalt not murder.
there's a rather large and fundamental difference between 'kill' and 'murder'. this one commandment is routinely used to condemn any and all killing. which was not the 'original intent' so to speak. it was a ban on the taking of life wrongfully. taking a life in self-defense was never considered wrong - until oh the last few hundred years, when a lot fluffy-cloud-filled noggins started misrepresenting it to satisfy their pacifist ways.
anastrophe wrote: ...until oh the last few hundred years, when a lot fluffy-cloud-filled noggins started misrepresenting it to satisfy their pacifist ways.
You mean tree hugging, vegetarian, "new age" spouting, reality denying, self enlightened but spiritually hungry activists?
"fluffy-cloud-filled noggins" really isn't fair, and is too rantful. sure, there are plenty of such folks, but pacifism is as legitimate a creed as any. i disagree with it, very strongly, but if someone chooses that path, then i respect their choice.
koan wrote: You mean tree hugging, vegetarian, "new age" spouting, reality denying, self enlightened but spiritually hungry activists?
Good rant. :-6
Now, if these are the types of people that you equate with pacifism then I'd probably agree with you. They used to do a lot of laudanum back then so, fluffy-cloud- filled noggins may not be too far off the pace.
"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group that believes you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas millionaires, or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." [font=Arial Narrow][/font]
capt_buzzard;4107 wrote: Most of us here believe in God. The Christians and Jews and some believe in Allah ect. But how many of us believe in The Devil - Lucifer - Satan?
The Devil Is A Human Being Not No Spook / ghost He / She Walking To And Fro In The Earth .
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
Tarnush had five more sons , which is where many species of ( disagreeable beings came from ) . They are called ;
Tiyr ~ ''The Causer Of Injuries ''
El An'waar ~ ''Encourages Debauchery ( Immorality ) ''
Sut Kathad ~ ''Teacher Of Lies ''
Karahat ~ ''Father Of Hate And Envy ''
Zalamur Hazin ~
Tarnush was also the father of the species called Maarid . Tarnush and the Maarid caused much turmoil in Malakuwt by trying to deceive all the races of the Anun . Na . Qi , Elohyeem , Gods , Judges and conceal the facts about the laws of Malakuwt .
Shaytaan Is A Physical Being ( Genesis 3 ; 15 )
The following is an actual conversation with ( a Shaytaan ) , a physical devil . This conversation took place on New Year's Eve ( one of Satan's popular holidays ) in one of New York's well-known nightclubs . It also appeared in a very popular periodical . Satan gives a full detailed account of who he is and what his purpose is in this world . It is made plain for you to see that Satan is working 24 hours a day , to take your soul to HELL!!!
''Millions have seen me . Perhaps you have seen me seated on some mountain top , my gigantic leathery wings folded against the sunset , my chin sunk , brooding on my clenched fist , on the evening of the day of an earthquake ? Or perhaps listening intently through the fires of a blistered city , I listen in amazement by the paralyzed pain , which is half the pleasure of great music , while a child wallows in a pool of bones and shrieks , ''Father ! , in a scream purged by pure terror of all gross humanity , Yes , even in the 20th century , which is the name of civilzation , has popularized vulgarity by making it complicated and expensive , one can still enjoy the finer things of life . Please sit down . I see by that look of dawning recognition that you realize who I AM . You are quite right . I am the Devil - Satan , the fiend , called rightly so , the prince of this world . I do not mean to larm you , but of I were you , I do not think I would stare too long into my eyes , whivh in better times have born the inexpressible light of Heaven and read their doom by the layered night of Hell . Eyes which in the dawn of creation , '' have watched with flaming envy as , at the great words '' fiat lux '' - ( let there be light ) , primal darkness shimmered the first day and earth took form from seething chaos , Eyes that have seen the first sun rise and set again and night return . Lit wonder of the first moon . Eyes that for 600.000 years have patiently probed the purulent heart of evil as a finger pushes through the wall of an ulcer .
Yes , I think we can claim with a certain smugness that the last couple of hundred years , Hell has really turned the satirical corner . In the under-ground we have now got together a group of experts in such things - deceased leftist from the international tailors , clothiers and haberdasher union , I believe . For the last 250 years , all hell has been underground in any narrowly geographic or doctrinal scene . Hell is a conspiracy . Like all good conspiracies , its first requirement is that nobody shall believe in it . Well, we have succeeded so well that for centuries , there has been no Hell and there is scarecely a tational man in the world today who , despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary , believes the devil exists. The greatest description is in history . For few facts , in human experience are better documented than the fact of my evidence . Its indeed indispurable . This is incontrovertible evidence ( truth ) in the Bible .
The evidence can be found in ( With Modern Greek Script ) Revelation 12 ; 7 - 9 and I Quote ; And there was war in heaven ; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon ; and the dragon fought and his angels , Verse 8 . And prevailed not ; neither was their place found any more in heaven . Verse 9 And the great dragon was cast out . that old serpent , called the Devil , and Satan , which deceiveth the whole world ; he was cast out into the earth , and his angels were cast out with him ,
Isiah 14 ; 12 is in a style , which to my way of thinking , is even better suited to the subject and is as explicit . Isiah 14 ; 12 ( With Modern Hebrew Script ) And I Quote ; '' How art thou fallen from heaven , O Lucifer , son of the morning ! How art thou cut down to the ground , which didst weaken the nations ! ''
The ages of faith has given us every - sweeping statistics on hell basing its count from Revelation 12 ; 4 ( The Original Aramic ) , And I Quote ; With his tail he drew 1/3 of the starts of the shamayeem and did cast them down to the planet earth ; And the taneen stood before the female who living being was ready to give birth , So that he could eat her child as soon as it was born .
Shaytaan , who is the Jebusite has taken control of the four major Television stations ,The Newspapers , And Magazines so he can program you into worshipping '' The image of the beast . ''
The Words Of The Evil One ;
'' 1 / 3 of the angels derserted with me , ( Zuen , the father of Sama'el , We were cast out of the Malakuwt , out into the Orion skies , unlike my son Ibliys , who fell in rank , with his two hundred fallen . ) It has been calculated that I command 2,400 legions or 14,400,000 devils . ( This will give you some idea of the forces that are opposed to us ) . Another calculation by a theologian computed the total number of demons to be exactly 2m665,746,664. I need scarcely tell you that the real strength to our effectiveness is one of the most jealously guarded secrets in Hell .
Nor can one write off the trstimony of hundreds of eyewitnesses who have met me , touched me , and even claimed to have enjoyed my more familiar attention . And it is in the face of this overwhelming evidence that I succeded in making you believe that I Do Not Exist .
But you smile ; I must confess that I deliberately arranged my evidence so that you would . Oh , how well I know the rationalist and liberal mind - the modern mind that still does not understand the nature of a commonplace thing like electricity , but does not hesitate to question the existence of Heaven and Hell . The mind that cannot grasp the mystery of the inoverse in which it has lived 600.000 years , let alone those greater universes beyond that myopia of man's greatest telescope , but does not hesitate to dount that its Creator and creation are divine . So . you still doubt my evidence , then I will give you evidence that even you cannot refute . If you are seeking my monument , look around you .... Behold the World !!!!... Behold my handiwork !!!
The sheer walls of the building of Rockefeller Center, abstractly glitter with their geometry of electronically lighted windows , plunged grey and chasmic ( bottomless pit ) to the city at their base. A proud architecture . We have a view in Hell , we rather like it . And certainly it is that in all human history man has never before closed such a haughty edifice above his head to fend off the wind of rain . And yet , if you see as I can behind the great stone face of this city , across the seas and the continents beyond, you would scarcely find one human heart , which is not gripped by a fear and a sense of helpessness unknown to man in any other age . They are like animals stampeding from of forest fire , who have reached their last refuge , the brink of an abyss . One side is a sheer drop . On the other the ring of flames roaring closer . They do not know how they came into this plight . But I know . It is my work . And their panic is my peace . It seems like yesterday that I launched Hell's Five Hundred Year Plan . I still remember when inspiration struck me . I still remember the disdainful laughter with which Hell and its reactionaries heard the plan - the most luminous plan that ever lit the darkened minds of a fallen angel. It was durling the 18th century ; Enlightenment began . I saw that makind had liquidated . Faith in the Human mind had surpassed faith in the Creator . I saw Hell must write progress on its banner ande science in its methods . Intellectual pride was always felt secretly a little proud of my fault . Not I perceived all mankind had sinned and them to show its hand . That is why Hell went underground . That is why for 250 years , I have ceased to existe . It was easier than I anticipated . On the whole , I think we can say progress has been steady . At first there was some opposition in Hell . Baal , Beelzebud and a handful of almost aboriginal demons who are still living in the 10th century B.C. , and have not had an idea since the majority went along with me . Our slogan was the '' Five Hundred Year Plan In Three Hundred Years'' . The three hundred years are almost up . In less than a generation the idea of the Enlightenment led directly to the French Revolution . France , the cultural focus of Europe , was split down the middle and remained so ever since . A chain reaction was set up over the world though it was not felt everywhere at once , that instability of all traditional institution , which is part of man's distress , was begun . The industrial and scientific revolution furthered the progress . Meanwhile another first -rate idea occurred to me . Shall I never forget the day when the grear thought of Evolution popped with all that it entail . Personally as I glance around this room , I have never felt my chances to be so good . He , Satan , is very much alive .
Satan is referred to as Zuen , Which is referred to as the Physical Evil One described as a scaly Reptilian . He is one of the worst Personalities . Zuen is also referred to as ; The Devil . The Dragon , Shakhar Father Of Haylal called Shaytaan , And Satan . '' The Devil '' Has many titles . Such as ; Zuen , Zu , Anzu , Kato , The Devil . Shakhar , Tarnush , Humbaba , Shaytan , Ibliys , Belus , Taaghuwt , Satan , Dragon , Diablos , Belzebub , Jaan , Nulush , Adad or Hadad meaning '' Lord '' , Which is from the Babylonian word '' Baal '' And Ha Satan , Baal ....
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
