Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:31 am

spot;1482162 wrote: I have never met anyone who has either inflicted or suffered waterboarding. Neither have I ever red any first-hand accounts written by anyone who has either inflicted or suffered waterboarding. I have no idea what the answer might be, but if you're going to inform the thread you'd better be damned sure you have convincing first-hand accounts by people who have actually suffered - not just experienced experimentally, but genuinely been tortured with - waterboarding, to back up your post. I have a dreadful suspicion that you're going to guess the answer, and claim your guess is actually true, on no basis whatsoever.

Not guess, speculate. Big difference---NOT!

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:40 am

AnneBoleyn;1482165 wrote: Not guess, speculate. Big difference---NOT!

Whatever it is I suspect it has piss-all to do with drowning. The terror of waterboarding relates, I would have thought, to the reflexes surrounding suffocation, which is an entirely different matter. I look forward to being more accurately informed.

Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:48 pm

Ahso!;1482161 wrote: Why don't you just stick to the thread title. Waterboarding is way off topic.

:-2

It is pertinent to the conversation my friend and I were having.

Regards

DL

Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:52 pm

spot;1482162 wrote: I have never met anyone who has either inflicted or suffered waterboarding. Neither have I ever red any first-hand accounts written by anyone who has either inflicted or suffered waterboarding. I have no idea what the answer might be, but if you're going to inform the thread you'd better be damned sure you have convincing first-hand accounts by people who have actually suffered - not just experienced experimentally, but genuinely been tortured with - waterboarding, to back up your post. I have a dreadful suspicion that you're going to guess the answer, and claim your guess is actually true, on no basis whatsoever.

Tell us, what does the victim of waterboarding fear?

Not a bit of water and a rag but the effects of them. Like drowning to death.

You have made my point though.

Regards

DL

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:57 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1482178 wrote: Not a bit of water and a rag but the effects of them. Like drowning to death.

You have made my point though.

On the contrary, I've made it abundantly clear that waterboarding is extremely unlike drowning to death and, were it not that water were involved in both, the two activities would be taken to be polar opposites.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:08 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1482177 wrote: :-2

It is pertinent to the conversation my friend and I were having.

Regards

DLNo it isn't pertinent, that's only you insisting it is.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:10 pm

I reckon that many over think things, if I were to simply splash water over an asthmatic's face, whether they were close to dieing or not, whether they were close to be drowned or not, the sensation would be very similar to drowning, the brain doesn't 'reason' very well at such times.

Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:11 pm

spot;1482179 wrote: On the contrary, I've made it abundantly clear that waterboarding is extremely unlike drowning to death and, were it not that water were involved in both, the two activities would be taken to be polar opposites.

Correct.

The water is what forms the association to drowning to death.

That is why they use water instead of just covering the mouth and nose with plastic. We have more of a natural fear of drowning than just suffocating as there is nothing in nature to trigger that the way there is water for drowning.

Regards

DL

Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:16 pm

Bruv;1482181 wrote: I reckon that many over think things, if I were to simply splash water over an asthmatic's face, whether they were close to dieing or not, whether they were close to be drowned or not, the sensation would be very similar to drowning, the brain doesn't 'reason' very well at such times.

An asthmatic may already have a fear of suffocation without water so I don't know how he would react to water splashes which are not the same as someone holding a rag over his face and pouring water over it.

Regards

DL

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:27 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1482184 wrote: An asthmatic may already have a fear of suffocation without water so I don't know how he would react to water splashes which are not the same as someone holding a rag over his face and pouring water over it.

Regards

DL
The asthmatic would react very much the same being splashed as the non asthmatic being water boarded, because the aim is to cause fear in the mind of the victim.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:27 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1482182 wrote: That is why they use water instead of just covering the mouth and nose with plastic. We have more of a natural fear of drowning than just suffocating as there is nothing in nature to trigger that the way there is water for drowning.
May we now come to the acid test? Are we just listening to your opinion, or do you have "convincing first-hand accounts by people who have actually suffered - not just experienced experimentally, but genuinely been tortured with - waterboarding, to back up your post"?

Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:52 pm

Bruv;1482186 wrote: The asthmatic would react very much the same being splashed as the non asthmatic being water boarded, because the aim is to cause fear in the mind of the victim.

I got what the aim was. I just do not know if ann asthmatic would react the same way in terms of fear of the water drowning him as compared to his fear of just asphyxiating.

He would have his normal natural fear of drowning and a more learned fear of asphyxiation due to his condition.

Instinctually they might meld. I don't know.

Regards

DL

Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:05 pm

spot;1482187 wrote: May we now come to the acid test? Are we just listening to your opinion, or do you have "convincing first-hand accounts by people who have actually suffered - not just experienced experimentally, but genuinely been tortured with - waterboarding, to back up your post"?

All I can offer is this.

All else that I have offered is just my opinion. I have felt the grip of the beginnings of panic when having dove deeper than intended but nothing to match the intensity shown in this link.

Note how little actual water is used.

Regards

DL

Post by **spot** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:22 am

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1482205 wrote: All else that I have offered is just my opinion.Speaking from ten years' experience on this site, I strongly suggest you establish credibility with its users before attempting to badger them into submission the way you've been doing. A degree of politeness would also go some way toward holding conversations rather than having fights..

Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:18 am

spot;1482216 wrote: Speaking from ten years' experience on this site, I strongly suggest you establish credibility with its users before attempting to badger them into submission the way you've been doing. A degree of politeness would also go some way toward holding conversations rather than having fights..

I give what I get.

I am not here to make friend so much as to make logical and moral points.

Regards

DL

Post by **spot** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:26 am

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1482264 wrote: I am not here to make friend so much as to make logical and moral points.
You have invented for yourself a straw man. You start off with this notion that you're addressing a bible literalist, and then you pose questions which you feel will put you in a morally unassailable and intellectually superior position. It's like seeing someone who gets his jollies from exposing his genitals to strangers in a park.

We are not a site populated with bible literalists. Your straw men exist solely within your own imagination. If you want to discuss the bible with bible literalists, go and find a site where they congregate.

If, on the other hand, you'd like to discuss bible literalism, that would be fine, go for it, we'll be happy to join in. We can start from accepting that nobody here thinks some bad-tempered **** of an omnipotent deity dictated his life story to a bunch of obedient scribes. Yes there were scribes, no there was not and is not a bad-tempered **** of an omnipotent deity. Discussing the scribes is interesting.

Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:33 am

There are fewer believers daily. When they are all gone, then my work will be done.

Regards

DL

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:36 am

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1482270 wrote: There are fewer believers daily. When they are all gone, then my work will be done.

Regards

DL

Believers in what, exactly?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:25 pm

spot;1482268 wrote: We can start from accepting that nobody here thinks some bad-tempered **** of an omnipotent deity dictated his life story to a bunch of obedient scribes. Yes there were scribes, no there was not and is not a bad-tempered **** of an omnipotent deity. Discussing the scribes is interesting.

Is there any punctuation missing from the bold section, because try as much as I can, I can't make sense of it

Post by **spot** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:44 pm

Bruv;1482286 wrote: Is there any punctuation missing from the bold section, because try as much as I can, I can't make sense of it

I'm prepared to have my comma massaged into a full stop if you like. What follows it echoes the syntax of "I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Boy Scouts of America" catch-all style of denying things, popularized at the House Un-American Activities Committee show trials.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:08 pm

As to why there are fewer believers daily seems to be self apparent. The level of scientific education is higher than it was in the superstitious days of yore, when everything which could not be explained would be attributed to some imaginary deity. What really beggars belief is how believers still remain.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:18 pm

spot;1482287 wrote: I'm prepared to have my comma massaged into a full stop if you like. What follows it echoes the syntax of "I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Boy Scouts of America" catch-all style of denying things, popularized at the House Un-American Activities Committee show trials.

Silly me I should have known, you are picking up bad habits from the BBC Site.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:21 pm

FourPart;1482290 wrote: As to why there are fewer believers daily seems to be self apparent. The level of scientific education is higher than it was in the superstitious days of yore, when everything which could not be explained would be attributed to some imaginary deity. What really beggars belief is how believers still remain.

I have no concrete proof but I believe the opposite is true, there is a rise in 'believers' of several beliefs, mainly Islam and various flavours of Christianity

Post by **spot** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:42 pm

And those irritating Mormons, don't leave them off the list.

Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:49 pm

LarsMac;1482271 wrote: Believers in what, exactly?

Believers in God. Idol worshipers like Christians and Muslins.

The tipping point to non-believers being the majority is estimated to be 2050.

As a Gnostic Christian that is not particularly good for me but if the mainstream religions continue with their immoral tenets, including their institutionalized homophobia and misogyny then they deserve to die out.

Regards

DL

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:55 pm

Regarding the recent rise in belief in Islam, one must question whether that is really a rise of free expression, brainwashing or downright intimidation, and ask yourself if that is true belief or just people saying that they are believers for fear of the consequences if they say otherwise. By the same reason, there are also those who in resistance to the increased Islamification of their various homelands will rise to their defence by claiming that they are from a Christian country, whether they have any faith of their own or not. In America (which, ironically, probably goes against all the "Thou Shalt Not..." teachings of the Bible more than any other country), in particular, religion is very also much politicised & promoted hand in hand as being synonymous with patriotism - it's even on their currency - "In God We Trust".

Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:59 pm

FourPart;1482290 wrote: As to why there are fewer believers daily seems to be self apparent. The level of scientific education is higher than it was in the superstitious days of yore, when everything which could not be explained would be attributed to some imaginary deity. What really beggars belief is how believers still remain.

And how they still yield power to screw up our school systems.

As an aside, I do not believe the stats are nearly as high as we think. In Finland for instance, 95% claim to be Christians, yet only about 4% ever go to church.

Regards

DL

Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:07 pm

Bruv;1482293 wrote: I have no concrete proof but I believe the opposite is true, there is a rise in 'believers' of several beliefs, mainly Islam and various flavours of Christianity

The way some explain the rise in the right is that more are leaving the center for the right and left extremes or just dumping their inherited religions. Most have always only followed custom, tradition and culture and never really believed in their daddy's God.

I myself am classed as a Christian thanks to my children and taxes going to the Catholic system but none of us are really Catholics. Religious statistics are way lower than most think and closing churches show just how low they have sunk.

Regards

DL

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:23 am

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1482300 wrote: Religious statistics are way lower than most think and closing churches show just how low they have sunk.

What has churches closing got to do with it ?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:24 am

spot;1482295 wrote: And those irritating Mormons, don't leave them off the list.

Mormons get covered in 'various flavours of Christianity' ?

They only irritate if you let them.

Post by **spot** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:57 am

Bruv;1482327 wrote: Mormons get covered in 'various flavours of Christianity' ?
Really, seriously, no, they don't. They have their own revelation, Jesus is a prophet just as he is in Islam, Mormons are no more Christians than Muslims are. Every single thing that makes Islam a separate religion applies equally to Mormons.

Post by **LarsMac** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:30 am

spot;1482328 wrote: Really, seriously, no, they don't. They have their own revelation, Jesus is a prophet just as he is in Islam, Mormons are no more Christians than Muslims are. Every single thing that makes Islam a separate religion applies equally to Mormons.

There were many Christian ministers in the States who held that line until last election, when it seemed Romney was closing in on the Republican nomination. Suddenly most of them did an about-face and declared that Mormons we actually Christian, or at least more Christian that the Kenyan Muslim Socialist.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:34 am

spot;1482328 wrote: Really, seriously, no, they don't. They have their own revelation, Jesus is a prophet just as he is in Islam, Mormons are no more Christians than Muslims are. Every single thing that makes Islam a separate religion applies equally to Mormons.

The alternative name "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" says they believe in Jesus as the son of God, they might be on the more whacky side, but by their own definition they are Christians, and that is good enough for me.

Post by **spot** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:02 am

Bruv;1482337 wrote: The alternative name "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" says they believe in Jesus as the son of God, they might be on the more whacky side, but by their own definition they are Christians, and that is good enough for me.

The sole aspect of the Mormon's description of God which matches traditional Christianity's is "Immortal" and even that's qualified. God and Jesus are simply born men who happen to be Immortals, it's like Highlander turned into a religion. Here's a couple of Mormon quotes about it, they're entirely contrary to any Christianity I ever heard of:Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation (Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15).

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's," (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22; Compare with Alma 18:26-27; 22:9-10).

"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).

https://carm.org/comparison-between-chr ... n-doctrine

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:31 am

They might not be very Christian to your self, and others may not consider them Christians, but they believe in Jesus Christ and the name 'Christians' is a derivative of that name......and they call them selves Christians......so however whacky they are, how can they not be Christians ?

Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:41 am

Bruv;1482326 wrote: What has churches closing got to do with it ?

Sigh.

:-5:-5

Regards

DL

Post by **spot** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:28 am

Bruv;1482349 wrote: they believe in Jesus Christ and the name 'Christians' is a derivative of that name......and they call them selves Christians......so however whacky they are, how can they not be Christians ?

Is it relevant at all that Mormon doctrine insists they're the only Christian church, and that all other so-called Christian churches like the Roman Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Adventist and so on are all dead relics which have been rejected by Christ as not of His kingdom? That there is no Christianity outside of the Mormon Church?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:31 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1482350 wrote: Sigh.

:-5:-5

Regards

DL

My very own wife worships at least once a week, and hasn't been in a church for years.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:35 pm

spot;1482351 wrote: Is it relevant at all that Mormon doctrine insists they're the only Christian church, and that all other so-called Christian churches like the Roman Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Adventist and so on are all dead relics which have been rejected by Christ as not of His kingdom? That there is no Christianity outside of the Mormon Church?

Just proves that they are whackier than the rest.

You are looking for 'relevance' concerning something based on the doctrines of religious faith ? Join the other queue.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:53 am

Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:38 am

Bruv;1482359 wrote: My very own wife worships at least once a week, and hasn't been in a church for years.

Why does she worship?

Who does she idol worship?

Regards

DL

Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:42 am

FourPart;1482402 wrote:

Thanks for this.

I like Stephen Fry and have also quoted him.

Regards

DL

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:14 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1482406 wrote: Why does she worship?

Who does she idol worship?

Regards

DL

She believes in a god, she worships in an ex-commercial town centre premises with fellow believers.

Why ? Because she does.

No idols are involved as far as I know.

Why should a building with the specific name "Church" be involved in religious worship Mr Bishop ? Mathew 18:20......remember.

Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:46 pm

Bruv;1482408 wrote: She believes in a god, she worships in an ex-commercial town centre premises with fellow believers.

Why ? Because she does.

No idols are involved as far as I know.

Why should a building with the specific name "Church" be involved in religious worship Mr Bishop ? Mathew 18:20......remember.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Strange that God does not do one on one. So much for a personal God.

I take it she is a Christian from what you quote.

If a Christian, then she is an idol worshiper as her God is her idol.

Why would she pray to a God whose religion, Christianity, is a homophobic and misogynous religion that denies her equality and makes her a second class citizen?

He shall rule over you is what God says in Genesis 3.

Regards

DL

Post by **spot** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:32 pm

You're doing this imbecilic "literalism is the only Christianity" cobblers again, aren't you. Your picture of Christianity does not reflect reality.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:40 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1482411 wrote: Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Strange that God does not do one on one. So much for a personal God.

I take it she is a Christian from what you quote.

If a Christian, then she is an idol worshiper as her God is her idol.

Why would she pray to a God whose religion, Christianity, is a homophobic and misogynous religion that denies her equality and makes her a second class citizen?

He shall rule over you is what God says in Genesis 3.

Regards

DL

I choose not to answer on her behalf, but trust me she does not feel like a second class anything, or should I say, if she does, she puts on a good show.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:58 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1482411 wrote: He shall rule over you is what God says in Genesis 3.Could we step back and say what that actually means, for a moment.

It means that the editors who produced the written version of the Pentateuch, back around 600BC, recorded the oral folk tradition that was extant at the time. It reflects the way a small group of Bronze Age tribes around the Yemen had interpreted the world, complete with a notion of an external God whose attributes they felt they could explore through these stories.

If these tribal scribes believed the tales to be literally true - and I have my gravest doubts that they did any such thing - it makes no difference at all to the actuality of this external God they described, no more than J K Rowling has described the reality of spellbinding for the generation which is now in its twenties.

That the scribes included "He shall rule over you" in Genesis 3 may mean they thought God had cursed Eve and all womankind. That would be interesting. There is no external God, and there is no curse, but there's a story about it in Genesis.

Why on earth do you insist that we play this appalling game of every Christian is bound by the label to believe that what these scribes wrote down is a literal truth?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:58 pm

Bruv;1482415 wrote: I choose not to answer on her behalf, but trust me she does not feel like a second class anything, or should I say, if she does, she puts on a good show.

Looked like a proud, strong, beautiful woman to me in those pics I saw!

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:09 pm

I've had this out with Ebe, when he says that he has to go to the Mosque all the time. The thing is that I've been to the Mosque with him before now (and was welcomed as a guest by all there, knowing full well that I was not one of the Faithful), and the Imam confirmed what I was saying that technically there is no need to attend the Mosque at all, as it is written that Allah created the entire earth, and that therefore all the world is Holy Ground. So long as you pray with your heart, the Mosque is nothing but a convenient meeting point. I, therefore, believe the same to hold true for all the other faiths that worship the same God, regardless of what they call him.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:11 pm

AnneBoleyn;1482420 wrote: Looked like a proud, strong, beautiful woman to me in those pics I saw!

With a large derrière, don't forget.