Ultrasound Before an Abortion?

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:53 pm

AnneBoleyn;1385916 wrote: Society's right. Think over that choice of words, kev.Society as a definition is the ideals of the majority. The only alternative is to either leave or revolt, neither of which can be perceived by a majority and it's most assuredly in the best interest of every individual there be laws against unhealthy practices. I'm talking about the effect of society, not the cause.

Diethylene glycol in the early 20th century springs to mind. Thalidomide, ironically enough, as well.

Diethylene glycol is a component used to make antifreeze and was sold as a Sulfonamide(Antibiotic) in the early 20th century and Thalidomide Thalidomide (play /θəˈlɪdəmaɪd/) is a sedative drug introduced in the late 1950s that was used to treat morning sickness. It was sold from 1957 until 1961, when it was taken away after being found to be a cause of birth defects. Modern uses of thalidomide include treating multiple myeloma in combination with dexamethasone, and erythema nodosum leprosum, with strict controls on its use to prevent birth defects. Research is ongoing in its use to treat other cancers and autoimmune conditions, although its use is controversial; the thalidomide tragedy led to much stricter testing being introduced for drug and pesticide licensing. Thalidomide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It's imperative that society have rights...

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:06 pm

Koan-

The heart of this matter, for me, is to keep abortion safe & legal for any woman who requests one. Her reasons are of no interest to me. Her right to decide for herself is. That is my concern. The rest is drivel.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:09 pm

From what I can see on the specific bill in question: Women will not be forced to look at the ultrasound. Most clinics already require an ultrasound. The wand ultrasound is considered more precise for locating the pregnancy in the early weeks thereby making it less likely that the woman will have to return for a second ultrasound.

The process is outrageously being likened to rape.

The process is being described as intrusive and humiliating, though pap smear exams with spectrum are not.

Meanwhile, the actual process of assuming the same position, having a device inserted to freeze your cervix then another device inserted that vacuums the fetus out, followed by being wrapped in a diaper and sat on a lawnchair in a room full of other women who recently had their womb stripped... is not intrusive or humiliating.

Let me give all the other women out there a piece of advice: if you can't endure an ultrasound of either type... don't get an abortion. If you're sure about what you're doing, the ultrasound is useful to make sure the pregnancy is normal before proceeding with termination... use the process as a minor prep for what they're going to do to you next.

A little piece of advice to the asswipes calling this rape: Rape is rape. Nothing else is rape.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:14 pm

kevin, I'm not sure I know what you are trying to say. Just remember this--if civil rights were a majority decision there would have not been civil rights. Majorities may rule, but the rights of the individual are first & foremost.

Thalidomide--that's the first time I became aware of abortion. I remember an American woman who had to leave the country & go to Sweden to get an abortion, taking the drug while pregnant. I remember well how she was vilified on a national level, hated & threatened. A memory from the good old days so often wistfully spoken of. The good old days may have been good if you liked to conform. If not, they were not good.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:19 pm

I'm not going to repeat myself endlessly. A sonogram is in no way essential for abortion. You have your own personal ax to grind, re: your own personal experience. You do not speak for every woman alive. Neither do I. Abortion on demand, no apologies, no excuses for you or any other person. That is my mantra.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:21 pm

If emotional torture (also claimed) is the concern with the ultrasound... consider it prep to sitting in the group recovery room listening to the women crying. I didn't cry. I waited until I was somewhere private.

Also, choose someone to drive you home based on who won't try to talk to you.

I wonder what would change if people spent as much time and money to figure out a way to help women keep their babies and still have a promising future.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:22 pm

Nothing else is rape.
Rape is a forced act, performed against the will of the victim. A victim is someone without choice.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:22 pm

AnneBoleyn;1385928 wrote: I'm not going to repeat myself endlessly. A sonogram is in no way essential for abortion. You have your own personal ax to grind, re: your own personal experience. You do not speak for every woman alive. Neither do I. Abortion on demand, no apologies, no excuses for you or any other person. That is my mantra.

I submit to you that the percentage of women who regret their abortion are massive in proportion to the women who are happy they did it.

I don't want to repeat myself either. Most clinics already require one. They don't want to be sued.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:25 pm

AnneBoleyn;1385930 wrote: Rape is a forced act, performed against the will of the victim. A victim is someone without choice.

Rape is a sexual act performed with malice, based on anger.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:27 pm

another thing...

"abortion on demand"??

What kind of drive thru abortion clinics are you promoting?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:31 pm

Rape is a sexual act performed with malice, based on anger
Though overwhelmingly it's first def. there are archaic ones, but listen to this one, koan. In Urban Dictionary there is a new def. for rape--An expression used when you want somebody to stop touching you.

i.e.The football player yelled out "RAPE!" so the other football players wouldn't touch him. It'd be way too awkward

To utterly defeat another person in any form of competitive activies.

i.e. Dude, I totally raped your ass during that last game of Age of Empires.

etc.

Urban Dictionary: rape

check it out. I think this is disrespectful, gross, dangerous thing to do--this new verb called rape.

What kind of drive thru abortion clinics are you promoting?
That's cute.

Yes, demand is a very strong word. You may not be aware of the upheavals necessary to bring about a change to have abortion (& contraception) be legal. There was a lot of passion, vehemence even, involved in getting these issues legally passed. It was a fight & it took fighting to win these rights for you and all women.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:57 pm

As someone who has been raped and has had an abortion with an ultrasound first... They are not the same. In no way can any dictionary make those two things the same.

Have you had an abortion, Anne?

I'm starting to suspect you haven't.

Also, ultrasounds are not legally required in Canada. The clinics require them by their own standards of proper medical care.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:13 pm

Have you had an abortion, Anne? I'm starting to suspect you haven't.
That's hilarious. Suspect. You're amusing! Listen koan, I know you grew up online, but I have no intention of answering that question, which may or may not be highly personal, but you know what? You're into statistics. I'm a woman. That means there's high chances of lots of stuff happening. It's also not always a question of what happened, but how you deal with what happened. That's the individual part.

Also, ultrasounds are not legally required in Canada.
Sigh. That's a relief. Thanks.

So who owns & maintains these clinics? Is that connected in some way? Did this practice recently begin?

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:17 pm

As a summary of my position on abortion rights:

I think that ultrasounds should be required as any clinic that is professional and caring will want to be sure that they have confirmed a normal pregnancy before doing a procedure to terminate.

Additionally,

Things I think a woman should be asked to think about before an abortion is granted:

1)Are they considering abortion because someone else has asked them abort?

If yes, they should be given counselling until the decision is being made without influence from anyone else.

2)Are they considering abortion for financial reasons?

If yes, they should be counseled until they are sure that financial concerns outweigh any emotional concerns they might face later on.

These first two questions are to reduce the number of women who are not having an abortion by choice.

No one asked me those questions. I'd have passed the first one and failed the second. If you can answer "no" to both those questions then you are actually making a choice. If you answer "yes" to either then it is not actually a choice you've made willingly.

Information that should be given before an abortion is granted:

A list of symptoms they may experience both physical AND emotional. Affirmation that a decision to abort is entirely personal and that only she can decide what is right for her. A pamphlet should be given listing the resources available for post abortion support, both physical and emotional support.

A choice can only be made if all information is made available and alternatives exist.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:19 pm

Anne, you can call me funny for asking the questions that matter if you like. I think the lack of response is more telling.

I believe that anyone who wants to state what is true and not true about abortion should have intimate knowledge of the subject. If you've had an abortion and won't talk about what actually happens... well, I'd guess you're not okay with what you did.

eta: For anyone reading or participating in this thread who is not okay, please look up resources for healing. They're out there and they can help.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:22 pm

oh... I had my abortion 11 years ago so... no, not new.

All the BC clinics that offer abortions require an ultrasound.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:42 am

AnneBoleyn;1385927 wrote: Just remember this--if civil rights were a majority decision there would have not been civil rights.Those without rights revolted in the best way possible to ensure society upholds civil rights. Civil rights is a majority decision, it's just that we have to pretend that the US is not the only country on the face of the planet that's all.

I'd much rather think this is a practical approach to a very delicate procedure, both mentally as well as physically. I also much rather prefer not to be immensly cynical when making up my mind on what would be the best decision I could make if I were ever presented with such an apparent dilemma.

In most states that require ultrasounds, as will be the case in Virginia, women must wait at least 24 hours between abortion counseling and the procedure and make at least two trips — one for the counseling and ultrasound, and another for the abortion.

Providers say scheduling of those trips, and not the ultrasound, has been the most cumbersome and costly effect of the law.

[...]

Despite the controversy over what type of ultrasound would be required in Virginia’s bill, both abdominal and vaginal ultrasounds are, in fact, used by most abortion providers. They are the most accurate tool for determining the development stage of a fetus, doctors said. More states moving to require ultrasound before abortion — Nation — Bangor Daily News — BDN Maine

Perhaps we can dispute the use of the word "fact" in the quoted text

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:30 am

Anne, you can call me funny for asking the questions that matter if you like. I think the lack of response is more telling.

My lack of response is due to not being able to give the time required to you at this moment. Btw, your questions so far have not mattered to me. I venture to say nor to grownup adult women who only want to control their own lives without your "help". You may see women as persons in need of special protection. I do not. If you've had an abortion and won't talk about what actually happens... well, I'd guess you're not okay with what you did.

Guess away. Speculate whatever makes you happy & fits your argument. Imagine then decide it must be fact because you thought of it!

That will have to do for now, see you later.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:46 pm

It seems to me that there are plenty of resources available for anyone who chooses or needs to know more about the development of a fetus without mandating it.

A long, long time ago men set out to control the world and one of the necessary parts of that conquest included oppressing the female gender of the species by convincing themselves and endeavoring to convince the female herself that female instincts and intuition was problematic for the advancement of civilization. I disagree with the male outlook, I think the female natural perspective is key to realizing a more peaceful and tame society. That doesn't mean I like female control, I naturally resist it, but I naturally resist any form of control (I don't know why).

Marriage itself is man's way of controlling the female by granting man authority over the family unit, and it's messed things up more than doing it good, IMV. I think Accountable made a very profound discovery within himself when he concluded that the woman is indeed the life supporting apparatus for the fetus and therefore holds the authority if and when to turn that life support off.

I have to wonder how many of us are descendants of ancestors who only engaged in consensual sex. I wonder also how many females, who were raped by today's standards either killed or walked away from babies after birth. My guess is many of us are here due to the result of violent and unwanted sexual aggression, and that there was indeed infanticide as a result in some cases. Perhaps the consequence of so many of us being bred through violence is reason for so much violence in the world?

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:10 am

I remember that I was in the ER with problems again, scared that my 2nd pregnancy was going to end up in miscarraige just like the first one did. I was only about 2 months along, but they did an ultrasound.....and there he was, heart beating, he was moving all around, and that told me that he was already a living person in there, more than anything I had read or been taught in the past. I would die for my child......i certainaly wouldn't think about it the other way around. That instinct kincked in on me from the beginning......from that moment. I guess I can't understand why it wouldn't be that way with everybody.

I never had any tests performed to look for anything wrong, he was my child.....my miracle....and that was that.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:42 pm

koan;1385942 wrote: As a summary of my position on abortion rights:

I think that ultrasounds should be required as any clinic that is professional and caring will want to be sure that they have confirmed a normal pregnancy before doing a procedure to terminate.

Additionally,

Things I think a woman should be asked to think about before an abortion is granted:

1)Are they considering abortion because someone else has asked them abort?

If yes, they should be given counselling until the decision is being made without influence from anyone else.

2)Are they considering abortion for financial reasons?

If yes, they should be counseled until they are sure that financial concerns outweigh any emotional concerns they might face later on.

These first two questions are to reduce the number of women who are not having an abortion by choice.

No one asked me those questions. I'd have passed the first one and failed the second. If you can answer "no" to both those questions then you are actually making a choice. If you answer "yes" to either then it is not actually a choice you've made willingly.

Information that should be given before an abortion is granted:

A list of symptoms they may experience both physical AND emotional. Affirmation that a decision to abort is entirely personal and that only she can decide what is right for her. A pamphlet should be given listing the resources available for post abortion support, both physical and emotional support.

A choice can only be made if all information is made available and alternatives exist.

We're already asked those questions. Koan I'm amazed that you believe women havent already thought about those issues themselves ....and there is no 'should' in counselling. And these ultrasound things are already given . It's the intention behind the ultrasound that they have just legislated that should be your biggest problem. If it's for the purpose of confirmation for the professional it should not be any concern for the female involved . But when those who legislate cry out that the woman should be made to see it and if it's got a heart beat (no brain mind you just heart beat) then you're killing it that's where we step into very dangerous territory. I want to know straight away the first woman they send to gaol for having an abortion. We turn off life support to those who only have a heart beat ...how is it wrong for one and not the other?

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:00 pm

AnneBoleyn;1385982 wrote: My lack of response is due to not being able to give the time required to you at this moment. Btw, your questions so far have not mattered to me. I venture to say nor to grownup adult women who only want to control their own lives without your "help". You may see women as persons in need of special protection. I do not.

Guess away. Speculate whatever makes you happy & fits your argument. Imagine then decide it must be fact because you thought of it!

That will have to do for now, see you later.

Woah !! Koan!! That's out of order. And simply put back on you in terms of 'Maybe you talk about it so much because you're not okay with what you did.' Don't put an accusetory cloud over Annes head. I'm beginning to think that your attitude here is about your own healing process rather than anything you actually believe or state in this thread. You can't ask if somone has had a termination of pregnancy and if they havent they don't know what they are on about or indeed hiding something ... I've terminations and I've born children, big effing deal . My reponsibility My choice.

Funny you know there is more demand put on cat owners in regards to responsiblity then there is on women over there own bodies. Women own their bodies, THE STATE DOES NOT.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:06 pm

And these ultrasound things are already given . It's the intention behind the ultrasound that they have just legislated that should be your biggest problem. If it's for the purpose of confirmation for the professional it should not be any concern for the female involved .
I don't get it. Why is ultrasound a "given?" Oh, so a new industry can make a buck, share some around, everyone takes a "cut". Follow the money. An ultrasound was never a given, isn't necessary to confirm pregnancy. Can you cite some freaky example where it was necessary & force it on everyone else? Why confirm a normal pregnancy, or an abnormal pregnancy, & then abort it? Who cares? This fetus grows no further. The only thing that should be "given" is our rights as human beings to possess our own person & decide for ourselves. That's the given -- a living woman deciding.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:13 pm

koan;1385942 wrote:

A choice can only be made if all information is made available and alternatives exist.

I'm actually becoming a little pissed off here. what alternatives? And if you say adoption I'll spit chips!!! Because that would be going back to the the days of baby farming and "womens homes".

Utopia doesn't exist. What alternatives does a woman have if she is poor? (and with the current economical situation as it stands ) What are you going to tell that woman?

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:24 pm

anne i'm against enforced ultrasounds. I know here you don't have to have one but if you go to a doctor first it's usually pretty much done on the spot. Just part and parcel of "I htink I'm pregnant need to check" which I believe is a healthy thing to do really . If you go to a clinic it's usually a pee job,but again it's for medical confirmation it's not intended to cast legislative judgement on the female. This legislation is dangerous because of who pushed for it. They are also against hystorectomys because it changes the natural order of things apparently...... GGGRRRRR!!!

I remember my old doctor who put two fingers up me and said 'yep you're pregnant'. He knew what he was looking for. But we've moved inot the area of panic when it comes to touching females in doctors offices now I suppose.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:41 pm

A blood test will do it, or the fingers, which (funny) I don't consider invasive. Ultrasounds cost from $200. to as high as $1000, or at least that's what I heard on the news. It's a new industry for the medical execs already making millions. Any woman is free to choose ultrasound, if she feels she must, but most would not use that choice, polls have determined that, & it is not medically necessary. That's the bottom line, it may be wanted by some patients, fine, but since it is not medically necessary, that ends it for me. Mrs Slocombe & I are unanimous in that!

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:50 pm

Well I agree with Mrs Slocombe. I don't think Mrs slocombe would want to force an ultrasound on her pussy' either.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:33 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1388055 wrote: I'm actually becoming a little pissed off here. what alternatives? And if you say adoption I'll spit chips!!! Because that would be going back to the the days of baby farming and "womens homes".Of course! Why be so cruel to a baby as to force it to suffer through the pain and humiliation of adoption? Far, FAR more loving if we just kill it quick. /sarcasm

Is life so unbearable for you?

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:59 am

you can't ask someone if they've had an abortion? Sheesh. I have. I'm not okay with my choice but I'm entirely comfortable talking about it. If someone thinks they know better than me what it feels like but can't talk about it... then afaic they aren't okay with the whole subject. If you want to stare down someone with experience then bring it. You've done it, you claim it's a happy occasion in your life, fuzzy, so lets debate. If someone wants to sit there without committing to what they do or do not know I'm pretty much of the mind that they can happily abort their opinion just as non-committally. Men can weigh in but their opinions are moot because they aren't women. I lob all the women who haven't had an abortion into the category of men who aren't qualified to know what it feels like. Maybe you're okay with being a murderer. I kind of consider it a badge on my chest of don't **** with me honours. I just refuse to look at it with any other defense than that I did it because I felt it was my life or my kid's. I'm a murderer. I did it legally but I'm still a harsh mother of a bitch for the experience. I have to live with it. If you can't admit to aborting then get out of my ****ing face.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:15 am

Hi, Koan. Please feel free to ask me anything you want. And if we were together hanging out, I'd have told you. I do have personal stories. It's up to me when & if I want to tell them. Especially to an audience. I have nothing to prove. I hope you can respect that. Also, since I believe in the fundamental right for a female to abort, personal, emotional stories don't have standing in legalese. I don't think you're a murderer. If it pleases you to think that way, I won't try to talk you out of it.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:17 am

Is life so unbearable for you?

IMO, you have no standing here Accountable. However, feel free to blab away.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:21 am

AnneBoleyn;1388108 wrote: IMO, you have no standing here Accountable. However, feel free to blab away.It's nice that you feel yourself superior. So going by your condescending defense of fuzzy, are you implying that abortion is far and away preferable to adoption?

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:23 am

The problem with the law seems to be that it did away with human, emotional considerations in deciding what's right, wrong, good for people or bad for them. The law is not there to protect and serve robots.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:25 am

I'm not superior, Accountable. What makes you arrive at that conclusion? You have no legal standing in abortion matters, it's that simple. Can't stand being left out I guess. Adoption has nothing to do with this discussion. Wouldn't ask women to be brood mares for others. Too much of a stretch for post Randian libertarians to grasp it seems.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:30 am

AnneBoleyn;1388114 wrote: I'm not superior, Accountable. What makes you arrive at that conclusion? You have no legal standing in abortion matters, it's that simple. Can't stand being left out I guess. Adoption has nothing to do with this discussion. Wouldn't ask women to be brood mares for others. Too much of a stretch for post Randian libertarians to grasp it seems.
I have human standing, like it or not. You defend fuzzy for her remarks on adoption. Those are the remarks I commented on. I've given my view on abortion. I'm pretty sure you read it. Do you think they are out of line? I haven't advocated to force anyone to be "brood mares", but you can't seem to communicate without hyperbole.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:47 am

It seems that the ultrasound requirement was just the tip of the iceberg. The law being discussed in Georgia would require a woman to carry to term even if the fetus is dead, just like "cows and pigs do" in the words of a Georgia legislator. The New Hampshire law would require doctors to lie to women and tell them that abortion causes breast cancer. One state passed a personhood at the moment of conception law and has arrested women for miscarriages. Another state wants written permission from the father of the fetus. Yet another state is worried that woman will lie about being raped so they can have an abortion and demands proof of the rape.

Why the rush to return to the 19th century? What's next?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:58 am

And then there's the one below from Arizona where a doctor may withhold health information about the fetus from the parents if the doctor is concerned that the information may lead the parents or mother to consider abortion as an option.

Format Document

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:23 am

Wandrin;1388126 wrote: One state [...] has arrested women for miscarriages.
Which state is that?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:23 am

I'm curious where and how the guilt associated with abortion is borne? Do you think it's natural or constructed from social and moral conditioning, or possibly a mix of both?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:26 am

Utah, I believe.Accountable;1388129 wrote: Which state is that?Utah I believe.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:53 am

Ahso!;1388131 wrote: Utah, I believe.Utah I believe.

There is also a case in Iowa where a woman fell down the stairs when pregnant and was arrested for attempted feticide. There are others where women have been arrested for drinking or using drugs while pregnant. In Mississippi, a woman was arrested for murder after she attempted suicide while pregnant.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:00 pm

I think I'd also read something about a similar thing happening in one of the southern caves. Georgia maybe?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:13 pm

what alternatives? And if you say adoption I'll spit chips!!! Because that would be going back to the the days of baby farming and "womens homes".

These words, Accountable? Yes, I most certainly agree. Hyperbole. If you insist. I have never given what is not a fact, & yes, I am passionate about this issue.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:17 pm

Ahso!;1388130 wrote: I'm curious where and how the guilt associated with abortion is borne? Do you think it's natural or constructed from social and moral conditioning, or possibly a mix of both?
Not everyone has guilt! Loss, maybe, maybe not. Loss of possibility? Maybe, maybe not. Regret? Maybe, maybe not. Don't assume. Sometimes, you just gotta do what you gotta do. We live with terrible decisions in life at times, don't we?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:22 pm

Wandrin;1388133 wrote: There is also a case in Iowa where a woman fell down the stairs when pregnant and was arrested for attempted feticide. There are others where women have been arrested for drinking or using drugs while pregnant. In Mississippi, a woman was arrested for murder after she attempted suicide while pregnant.
Links to news stories, police reports, or some other kind of factual support would make me just giggle with excitement.

.... well, okay, maybe not giggle.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:33 pm

AnneBoleyn;1388161 wrote: Not everyone has guilt! Loss, maybe, maybe not. Loss of possibility? Maybe, maybe not. Regret? Maybe, maybe not. Don't assume. Sometimes, you just gotta do what you gotta do. We live with terrible decisions in life at times, don't we?Of course, I didn't mean to suggest every person who choose abortion feels guilt. My inquiry was about those who do experience guilt afterwards.

I know several females who've had abortions and have talked with them about it extensively. Not that that makes me an expert or anything.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:37 pm

Ahso!;1388164 wrote: Of course, I didn't mean to suggest every person who choose abortion feels guilt. My inquiry was about those who do experience guilt afterwards.

I know several females who've had abortions and have talked with them about it extensively. Not that that makes me an expert or anything.
Makes you more of an expert than most of us. I'm sure even some women who have abortions only know their own personal circumstances.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:43 pm

AnneBoleyn;1388160 wrote: These words, Accountable? Yes, I most certainly agree. Hyperbole. If you insist. I have never given what is not a fact, & yes, I am passionate about this issue.
Actually I was referring to your words, not hers.

AnneBoleyn;1388114 wrote: I'm not superior, Accountable. What makes you arrive at that conclusion? You have no legal standing in abortion matters, it's that simple. Can't stand being left out I guess. Adoption has nothing to do with this discussion. Wouldn't ask women to be brood mares for others. Too much of a stretch for post Randian libertarians to grasp it seems.

I don't see how the 'baby farming' comment is hyperbole but the 'brood mare' one isn't. But we seem to be back on track now. Let's just drop it.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:45 pm

Let's just drop it.
okey doke.

I know you were speaking of my words, but I'd be glad to second what fuzzy said. Baby farming & brood mare is synonymous anyway.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:03 pm

Guest Post: A Doctor on Transvaginal Ultrasounds