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What a strange thread this is.

It's presumed that selling a soul is a deal made with the devil but it seems far more souls are sold to fundamentalist visions of God.

Perhaps those who claim to be the devil's representatives on Earth proffer the deal, and minionship of their organization grants the promised earthly benefit? In which case the benefits may well be real and the organization genuine, unless of course the claimed secret-society conspiracy exists only within the realms of Dennis Wheatley's novels. Who can tell? Who, to be honest, other than a stack of well-paid child-kidnapping social workers and their victims, cares?

None of it has any supernatural foundation. People have undoubtedly created such organizations in the past and will do so in the future, there being a shill market who can be conned by appearances and suckers never being given an even break. I'd call it soulless.

koan;1356508 wrote: What a strange thread this is.

It's presumed that selling a soul is a deal made with the devil but it seems far more souls are sold to fundamentalist visions of God.


People sell their souls to all sorts of entities all the time. Really has little to do with religion, or even God.

God gave you your soul. what you do with it is up to you.

He certainly won't try to buy it back.

LarsMac;1356522 wrote: God gave you your soul.Accepting, for the sake of argument, the absolute and literal truth of this statement, what possible reason have I for being either grateful or endebted?

koan;1356508 wrote: What a strange thread this is.

It's presumed that selling a soul is a deal made with the devil but it seems far more souls are sold to fundamentalist visions of God.


If you worship a false god is that not the same thing? Rhetorical question on my part and not an issue I would get in to a debate on.

posted by larsmac

God gave you your soul. what you do with it is up to you.

He certainly won't try to buy it back.


The thing is you can only sell it if you believe you have one and it only has value if you believe selling it will send you to hell. So for a large number of people that means they could not sell their soul even if they wanted to. Therefore the most truustworthy people on the planet are atheists because they cannot be corrupted by the devil.

gmc;1356528 wrote:

The thing is you can only sell it if you believe you have one and it only has value if you believe selling it will send you to hell. So for a large number of people that means they could not sell their soul even if they wanted to. Therefore the most truustworthy people on the planet arec atheits because they cannot be corrupted by the devil.


That is an interesting way to look at it.

spot;1356524 wrote: Accepting, for the sake of argument, the absolute and literal truth of this statement, what possible reason have I for being either grateful or endebted?


I dunno. Why do you think one should feel grateful or indebted for something everyone has?

LarsMac;1356532 wrote: I dunno. Why do you think one should feel grateful or indebted for something everyone has?


I wouldn't. On the contrary, I'd be eternally furious and unforgiving at having the damned thing thrust on me without my consent in the first place.

spot;1356533 wrote: I wouldn't. On the contrary, I'd be eternally furious and unforgiving at having the damned thing thrust on me without my consent in the first place.


Well, there ya go, then, you might as well trade it for something you'd rather have.

Sign on the dotted line, and you don't need to give it another thought the rest of your life.

Probably should check the fine print, though.

:-3

LarsMac;1356534 wrote: Well, there ya go, then, you might as well trade it for something you'd rather have. I note that, according to the Christian dogmatic mythology we're centred on here, having a soul isn't a requirement for being alive. Cows, for example, not having a soul. Nor, if the Christian Doctors got as far as considering the monkey, the monkey.

Failing which, I didn't ask to be given life in the first place either. It's a shocking imposition which only a malign entity could have dreamed up. I'm not at the beck and call of some trumped-up All-Powerful Godhead, to be created and disposed of on a whim like that. I'll appeal against the original life sentence.

gmc;1356528 wrote: The thing is you can only sell it if you believe you have one and it only has value if you believe selling it will send you to hell. So for a large number of people that means they could not sell their soul even if they wanted to. Therefore the most truustworthy people on the planet arec atheits because they cannot be corrupted by the devil.
:) Oh, hah. Even if there's nothing supernatural, that doesn't mean that those who claim not to believe in the supernatural will behave in responsible way. And of course nobody proves that they are atheist by claiming to be atheist.

It's a folk myth, this idea of selling one's soul to the devil. The idea of the devil comes from a scripture, but the idea that said agent has anything to sell does not. It may of course come from said agent! It would do, wouldn't it.

What the devil may also 'sell' is the idea that selling him our souls is some sort of a special case that only the daring might assay. But everyone ultimately is faced with the same choice. It's what life is about- what it's all about, perhaps. Everyone is Cain or Abel, even if there is no supernatural, because everyone has the choice, potentially if not actually, of 'taking reward against the innocent', or refusing to take anything for doing someone's dirty work for them. The first option means a bad conscience, whether we admit it or not, and the second option means a clear conscience even if it may result in a hard, or a short, life on this earth. And if there is an afterlife, if we each have a soul whose destiny is directed by conscience, a bad conscience may result in a punitive end, as is said to lie in store for the devil and those who serve him.

spot;1356536 wrote:

I'm not at the beck and call of some trumped-up All-Powerful Godhead,...


You are right. Absolutely.

You are, and always have been, and always will be free to do as you please.

I don't see why all the straw dogs have to be raised up, here.

LarsMac;1356531 wrote: That is an interesting way to look at it.


I think so which is why I put it that way.

If your soul is that incorporeal essence of a person or living thing when you watch someone going down with alzheimers is that their soul dying slowly? When the mind finally goes and all you are left is an empty shell why keep them alive? If you know your fate was to be just a shell would you take the choice to end your corporeal existence - christians can't because suicide is a mortal sin

Corinthians 6:19-20 NIV) [19] Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; [20] you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

(1 Corinthians 3:16-17 NIV) [16] Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? [17] If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God&'s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.


So if your soul has been paid for by christ is it yours to sell in the first place? If you don;t own it you can't sell it.

posted by xyz

It's a folk myth, this idea of selling one's soul to the devil. The idea of the devil comes from a scripture, but the idea that said agent has anything to sell does not. It may of course come from said agent! It would do, wouldn't it.




Shockingly we seem to be in agreement - at least to some extent.

The term 'Godhead' is normally used by convinced, if reluctant, believers.

From GMC:

So if your soul has been paid for by christ is it yours to sell in the first place? If you don;t own it you can't sell it.


Exactly.

LarsMac;1356548 wrote: From GMC:



Exactly.


Not the hoary old chesnut of free will surely? What kind of god creates a being giving it free will but knowing they are going to sell their soul to the devil and then condemn them to hell for making that decision. How does he decide which ones will be going to hell? God works in mysterious ways is just a way to justify ignoring all the daft inconsistencies of religion. Or maybe I mistake what you mean.

LarsMac;1356539 wrote: You are right. Absolutely.

You are, and always have been, and always will be free to do as you please.

I don't see why all the straw dogs have to be raised up, here.
It's all the apocalyptic sheep-and-goat judgemental crap of Christian dogma which you're skating past, that's why.

TruthBringer;1355966 wrote: This is a question I pose to everyone on this board.
That is not possible, is it. That's because some 'on the board' cannot admit that they 'would suffer for it after you died'. All that these people can do is attempt to persuade that they don't believe in anything after they die. Which is very tedious.

So the obvious thing to do is ask only those who believe in something after they die.

Not that it would stop the people who say they don't believe in anything after they die.

gmc;1356555 wrote: Not the hoary old chesnut of free will surely?


No. It's just complete misunderstanding of the text.

But a good, tedious rant will bury the thread topic.

gmc;1356555 wrote: Not the hoary old chesnut of free will surely? What kind of god creates a being giving it free will but knowing they are going to sell their soul to the devil and then condemn them to hell for making that decision. How does he decide which ones will be going to hell? God works in mysterious ways is just a way to justify ignoring all the daft inconsistencies of religion. Or maybe I mistake what you mean.


The main problem with your bit, here, is that God does not codemn anyone to hell.

LarsMac;1356579 wrote: The main problem with your bit, here, is that God does not codemn anyone to hell.


That statement, if I recall correctly, falls under the category of Apologetics. Otherwise knows as Christian Dogma attempting to dodge the moral bullet.

spot;1356581 wrote: That statement, if I recall correctly, falls under the category of Apologetics. Otherwise knows as Christian Dogma attempting to dodge the moral bullet.


Don't know much about Dogma.

But it ain't God who does the condemning.

LarsMac;1356583 wrote: But it ain't God who does the condemning.Belief can be a cruel straitjacket. Why people can't just accept the world as it is I've no idea.

spot;1356585 wrote: Belief can be a cruel straitjacket. Why people can't just accept the world as it is I've no idea.
Belief can be a cruel straitjacket. Why people can't just accept God as He is, I've no idea.

No, I am not trying to mock you.

I think we are looking at sides of the same coin.

LarsMac;1356587 wrote: Belief can be a cruel straitjacket. Why people can't just accept God as He is, I've no idea.

No, I am not trying to mock you.

I think we are looking at sides of the same coin.


I don't think either of us can know God as He is. I do think we can know God as we experience Him. The idea that we can know God from believing a learned dogma taught by a particular religion I find laughable. As a way of controlling a large number of adherents it does work very effectively for the religious hierarchy, but it has bugger all to do with God.

LarsMac;1356579 wrote: The main problem with your bit, here, is that God does not codemn anyone to hell.


Rather depends which version of christian dogma you choose to believe in does it not? However, as a non believer I'm not going to insist my particular version is the only correct one.

posted by larsmac

Don't know much about Dogma.


You're probably better off for that but wait a minute and no doubt someone wil be along to tell you why their version is the corret one and which particular version of the bible is the one that should be used.

Posted by spot

The idea that we can know God from believing a learned dogma taught by a particular religion I find laughable. As a way of controlling a large number of adherents it does work very effectively for the religious hierarchy, but it has bugger all to do with God.


Good grief I agree with you - up to a point. Perhaps we will both be in the same version of hell the unco guid believe is reserved for those who don't share their dogma. Put the kettle on will you - or is there a different hell for those who don't believe in god from those who believe in the wrong version?

posted by xyz

That is not possible, is it. That's because some 'on the board' cannot admit that they 'would suffer for it after you died'. All that these people can do is attempt to persuade that they don't believe in anything after they die. Which is very tedious.


You should try and have enough faith so that what others believe or do not believe doesn't matter to you. Just because you proselytize all the time it doesn't follow others are doing the same. If discoursing about such matters disturbs you so maybe you should chill out a bit. Why do you assume the non religious don't believe in anything after they die? Yours is but one version of religuious belief and it's a moot point whether it is the correct one. If it works for youwhy is that not sufficient?

posted by xyz

No. It's just complete misunderstanding of the text.

But a good, tedious rant will bury the thread topic.


Which version of the text? No don't bother I'd have to accept your version is correct and that I'm not likely to do.

gmc;1356600 wrote: you proselytize all the time
Such is the power of that thar Bible, that even objective, factual statements about it are felt to be compelling.

Which version of the text?
Any version will do.

You cannot sell what you do not own. So no

what is an easier life anyway??

Life is hard no matter who you are and what view you have, nothing comes easy and anyone who thinks that it does would be foolish enough to sell their soul only to find that out.

It is all about perspective and making the most of what you have

mikeinie;1356607 wrote: You cannot sell what you do not own.
So who writes your posts?

mikeinie;1356607 wrote: You cannot sell what you do not own. So no

what is an easier life anyway??

Life is hard no matter who you are and what view you have, nothing comes easy and anyone who thinks that it does would be foolish enough to sell their soul only to find that out.

It is all about perspective and making the most of what you have


Actually it can be done you can but the seller needs to be powerful enough to either lay claim and just take - or convince those who really do own it that they don't and have no say in the matter or that there is someone who knows better that they should follow without question.

xyz;1356613 wrote: So who writes your posts?


??? what do you mean?

gmc;1356528 wrote: Therefore the most truustworthy people on the planet are atheists because they cannot be corrupted by the devil.


There are enough evil people on the planet to warp their minds and make them untrustworthy. If they allow it.

TruthBringer;1356912 wrote: There are enough evil people on the planet to warp their minds and make them untrustworthy.
Why that way round? Maybe the devil tells them that they must deny that God and he exist, in return for whatever he fools them into thinking they get in return. Maybe someone calls himself an atheist because he's a wicked person who wants everyone else to be wicked so that he is not shown up. Atheist morality is not up to standard, imv, anyway. Though of course there are exceptions.

xyz;1356914 wrote: Why that way round? Maybe the devil tells them that they must deny that God and he exist, in return for whatever he fools them into thinking they get in return. Maybe someone calls himself an atheist because he's a wicked person who wants everyone else to be wicked so that he is not shown up. Atheist morality is not up to standard, imv, anyway. Though of course there are exceptions.


Nice one..

Hey.. I have not gone burning any religious books lately.. can you say the same for your religion??

mikeinie;1356961 wrote: Nice one..

Hey.. I have not gone burning any religious books lately.. can you say the same for your religion??
See what I mean.

I want to sell my soul to be a billionaire, make my life easer, get a microchip implant and a brain chip, for my body to get healed, neuro feedback, and brain computer interface Will my life be easier and can I travel the world if I sell my soul. Can I get a passport if I have a juvenile record. All my charges have been dropped, never spent a night in jail. I have no felonies I was never in trouble as an adult.



Thanks

you`ve said this in your intro thread and it`s cute that you found another thread which asks the question. That`ll do, pig, that`ll do.

(That`s a quote from a movie where the line is spoken to an actual pig)