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ChristianIssues wrote: If you watch my video, Part A, you will find that just the first two minutes make it obvious that tongues cease before Jesus returns and as you watch the rest of the video, plus Parts B & C, you will find that tongues have indeed ceased.
If 'tongues have indeed ceased', Mick, then how would you account for the fact that hundreds of thousands of Christians around the world continue to speak in tongues in the present day?

When I asked you earlier in the thread if Christians who speak in tongues are just talking gibberish you said that you believed they are, and that you believed this absolutely. This means, of course, you believe that the Christians in freethinkingthuthseeker's church who speak in tongues are just talking gibberish as well.

But why are they doing this, Mick? Why are these Christians, along with so many others, just talking gibberish? And why have countless Christians done this across the centuries, given your claim that speaking in tongues ceased in the first century?

Glaswegian;1331574 wrote: If 'tongues have indeed ceased', Mick, then how would you account for the fact that hundreds of thousands of Christians around the world continue to speak in tongues in the present day?

When I asked you earlier in the thread if Christians who speak in tongues are just talking gibberish you said that you believed they are, and that you believed this absolutely. This means, of course, you believe that the Christians in freethinkingthuthseeker's church who speak in tongues are just talking gibberish as well.

But why are they doing this, Mick? Why are these Christians, along with so many others, just talking gibberish? And why have countless Christians done this across the centuries, given your claim that speaking in tongues ceased in the first century?


Hello Glaswegian,

I realise that there are some 600 million Pentecostals/Charismatics and the majority speak in tongues but that does not make it right. There are some 1.3 billion deluded Catholics, 1 billion misled Muslims, 1 billion confused Hindus etc.

Why do I believe that speaking in tongues is wrong? Very simply because the Bible clearly tells me that tongues has ceased so today's tongues is not the gift of the holy Spirit. Also, all tongues in the Bible was either understood or interpreted. If you know someone who speaks in tongues, get them to do the recording test I mention before to see if their tongues is real. You will find that they won't submit to the test but rather give all sorts of 'spiritual' why it is wrong to do it.

Besides all that, tongues had a specific purpose and that purpose was served in the 1st century so tongues ceased then. If you study it with an open mind you will find that what I say is true. I meet many ex-tongues-speaking people who have found this truth and disassociated themselves from those churches.

God bless,

Mick

This lady makes up her own language and believes the words and voice come from god. You might recognise the second one.

YouTube - LISA GERRARD - Aria (featured in Layer Cake )



YouTube - Timelapse vs. Lisa Gerrard (Elysium)

So is she speaking in tongues and is her music inspired by god? Times past she would probably be burned as a witch since god wouldn't speak through a mere woman.

Course it takes the religious to believe they have the right to decide what comes from god and what is from the devil and mugs to believe their opinion matters

posted by christianissues

Besides all that, tongues had a specific purpose and that purpose was served in the 1st century so tongues ceased then. If you study it with an open mind you will find that what I say is true. I meet many ex-tongues-speaking people who have found this truth and disassociated themselves from those churches.


If you study it all with an open mind you realise what a load of bollocks it is.

ChristianIssues;1331145 wrote: I sincerely appreciate what you say ... I also know many Pentecostals and many exPentecostals who have totally disassociated themselves for various reasons but that has no bearing on the subject of tongues. Even the Catholic church and the Masons do good work. If you watch my video, Part A, you will find that just the first two minutes make it obvious that tongues cease before Jesus returns and as you watch the rest of the video, plus Parts B & C, you will find that tongues have indeed ceased. If you make a careful study, with an open mind, you will find the evidence is overwhelming. If you are interested, Part A is at

YouTube - Speaking In Tongues Part A

God bless,

Mick


Greetings Mick, I have checked pout the ideas in that Video and whilst it COULD be an acurrate analysis I prefer to trust in GOD to reveal THE TRUTH to me rather than man.

Having also reread 1 corinthians in full from 1 -13 I beg to differ with the video conclusions with the greatest of respect.

Chapter 13 concerns Love it is about Love and becoming perfect and I strongly believe it is not aboput the completenesS of the BIBLE, but rather when we are complete we will become perfect. Do you for example already believe you are perfect? Not in God's eyes I mean but in your own?

God bless you

k

freethinkingthuthseeker;1332419 wrote: Greetings Mick, I have checked pout the ideas in that Video and whilst it COULD be an acurrate analysis I prefer to trust in GOD to reveal THE TRUTH to me rather than man.

Having also reread 1 corinthians in full from 1 -13 I beg to differ with the video conclusions with the greatest of respect.

Chapter 13 concerns Love it is about Love and becoming perfect and I strongly believe it is not aboput the completenesS of the BIBLE, but rather when we are complete we will become perfect. Do you for example already believe you are perfect? Not in God's eyes I mean but in your own?

God bless you

k


Hello K,

Chapters 12-14 of 1 Cor. are all about spiritual gifts and the bit in 1 Cor. 13 is just telling us that love is greater than any of those gifts.

I am far from perfect but the perfect in 1 Cor. 13 is not talking about our perfection. Look at it closely and you will see that, regarding what the perfect is, something which is very important is often overlooked in this matter. It is generally believed that when the perfect comes ALL the gifts will cease. However, 1Co_13:9-10 do not refer to ALL the gifts but to ONLY PROPHECY AND KNOWLEDGE, the very two things the Bible is made up of (The Bible starts out with God giving us the knowledge of Creation and ends where He gives us the prophecy of Revelation and in-between it is purely knowledge and prophecy). In 1Co_13:8 there are three gifts mentioned - tongues, prophecy and knowledge. However, in 1Co_13:9-10, which speak about the coming of the perfect, ONLY the IN-PART gifts of prophecy and knowledge are mentioned - tongues has been dropped. This means that the coming of the perfect has nothing to do with the cessation of tongues, nor the cessation of gifts in general, but ONLY to the cessation of the two in-part gifts of prophecy and knowledge. This begs the question, "What else besides the completion of the Bible would affect ONLY prophecy and knowledge?" The answer cannot be the return of Jesus as that will affect ALL things, not just two in-part gifts.

Once again, the fact that the gift of tongues has been removed from 1Co_13:9-10 tells us that these verses are not talking about the cessation of gifts in general, nor the cessation of tongues, but only the cessation of the in-part gifts of prophecy and knowledge and only the Bible fits as being the perfect. Both prophecy and knowledge are said to be 'in-part' and this is because the Bible itself was in-part (incomplete) when 1 Corinthians was written. When we also consider that the word 'perfect' can be translated as 'complete' we can see that the coming of the perfect was referring to the completion of the Bible after which the gifts of prophecy and knowledge would no longer be needed so they would cease and this is why no one can add to the Bible today. In 1Co_13:8, the verb used to say that tongues will cease is Middle Voice which means tongues will cease automatically, of themselves. Because tongues was merely a sign of judgment to the Jews, not a prayer language nor an angelic language, then when the sign had served its purpose the gift of tongues ceased automatically. This could have been in 70AD or earlier or perhaps it actually did cease with the coming of the perfect but whenever it was it was certainly in the 1st century.

Sorry to be so long-winded.

God bless,

Mick

thats OK Mick not long winded at all.

i see how you are looking at this but it truely does not gel with me Spiritually or even logically.

for instance if your analysis is correct then today we should have no knowledge as well as prophecy and also presumably healing and casting out demons gifts too. What about Faith as a gift?

Did Paul actually know that his letters would go into abook wihch had by no means been compiled and was even written before Matthews book and many others?

In the new international version 13:8 states tongues will be still

Yet what about the end times, this prophecy remains to be fulfuilled and we have knowledge about this but not full understanding of this yet.

As to what else could this be about, perhaps it refers to the end of the end times?

We really do need thise gifts more today than back then as the end times will be far worse than earlier times e.g the trubulation. The Holy Ghost comes down upoon us in Church when one or two sing in tongues to priase God and it furthermore, remains a powerful exorcist tool.

I know these people in my church are good clean and very Spiritual Christians and that this is not anything from the other side, so again I beg to differ and if you still maintain your belief I trust we can agree to disagree in peace and respect, unless you have something new to enhance this belief

God bless you in Jesus Name

Kevin

freethinkingthuthseeker;1332451 wrote: thats OK Mick not long winded at all.

i see how you are looking at this but it truely does not gel with me Spiritually or even logically.

for instance if your analysis is correct then today we should have no knowledge as well as prophecy and also presumably healing and casting out demons gifts too. What about Faith as a gift?

Did Paul actually know that his letters would go into abook wihch had by no means been compiled and was even written before Matthews book and many others?

In the new international version 13:8 states tongues will be still

Yet what about the end times, this prophecy remains to be fulfuilled and we have knowledge about this but not full understanding of this yet.

As to what else could this be about, perhaps it refers to the end of the end times?

We really do need thise gifts more today than back then as the end times will be far worse than earlier times e.g the trubulation. The Holy Ghost comes down upoon us in Church when one or two sing in tongues to priase God and it furthermore, remains a powerful exorcist tool.

I know these people in my church are good clean and very Spiritual Christians and that this is not anything from the other side, so again I beg to differ and if you still maintain your belief I trust we can agree to disagree in peace and respect, unless you have something new to enhance this belief

God bless you in Jesus Name

Kevin


Hello Kevin,

Regarding knowledge ceasing, 1 Cor. 13 is not referring to our personal knowledge as that will never cease, even when Jesus returns, unless we become brain dead. The knowledge that ceased was knowledge from God which was written into the Bible. Similarly, the prophecy that ceased was supernatural prophecy, like Revelation. This is certainly true as the Bible cannot be added to ... it is complete (the word 'perfect' means complete). We still prophecy in the form of teaching and preaching.

The gift of faith ceases when Jesus returns as I pointed out in the video - so does hope. Also, the passage does not speak about healing ... James tells us that people will be healed. Only tongues, prophecy and knowledge are spoken of in 1 Cor 13.

Kevin, neither Jesus nor His disciples needed tongues to expel demons or do anything else - everything was/is done by the power of God and prayer. Tongues was simply a sign of judgment to unbelieving Israel as it says in 1 Cor. 14 - tongues was never said to be a prayer language nor anything else but a sign.

There is a lot more that I can say but it would be better, if you are really interested in searching the subject out, for you to read the following two books. The first one was written by an exPentecostal. They are free to download. The second one is shorter and very good also.

All About Speaking In Tongues by Fernand LeGrand can be downloaded from

http://www.christianissues.biz/pdf-bin/ ... ongues.pdf

The article is called Sola-Scriptura, I think, and it is free to download from

http://www.christianissues.biz/pdf-bin/ ... iptura.pdf

I also have two follow-on videos called Speaking In Tongues Part B & C that may interest you. They are at

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.



Disagreeing in peace is no challenge to me Kev. I speak strongly against tongues because I can see clearly that the gift has ceased and is causing havoc in the churches.

God bless mate,

Mick

PS Regarding Paul knowing - Paul, like John, Peter and others were prophets and wrote what they received from God. Would you ask, "How did John know what he spoke about in Revelation?"

ChristianIssues;1332527 wrote: Hello Kevin,

Regarding knowledge ceasing, 1 Cor. 13 is not referring to our personal knowledge as that will never cease, even when Jesus returns, unless we become brain dead. The knowledge that ceased was knowledge from God which was written into the Bible. Similarly, the prophecy that ceased was supernatural prophecy, like Revelation. This is certainly true as the Bible cannot be added to ... it is complete (the word 'perfect' means complete). We still prophecy in the form of teaching and preaching.

The gift of faith ceases when Jesus returns as I pointed out in the video - so does hope. Also, the passage does not speak about healing ... James tells us that people will be healed. Only tongues, prophecy and knowledge are spoken of in 1 Cor 13.

Kevin, neither Jesus nor His disciples needed tongues to expel demons or do anything else - everything was/is done by the power of God and prayer. Tongues was simply a sign of judgment to unbelieving Israel as it says in 1 Cor. 14 - tongues was never said to be a prayer language nor anything else but a sign.

There is a lot more that I can say but it would be better, if you are really interested in searching the subject out, for you to read the following two books. The first one was written by an exPentecostal. They are free to download. The second one is shorter and very good also.

All About Speaking In Tongues by Fernand LeGrand can be downloaded from

http://www.christianissues.biz/pdf-bin/ ... ongues.pdf

The article is called Sola-Scriptura, I think, and it is free to download from

http://www.christianissues.biz/pdf-bin/ ... iptura.pdf

I also have two follow-on videos called Speaking In Tongues Part B & C that may interest you. They are at

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.



Disagreeing in peace is no challenge to me Kev. I speak strongly against tongues because I can see clearly that the gift has ceased and is causing havoc in the churches.

God bless mate,

Mick

PS Regarding Paul knowing - Paul, like John, Peter and others were prophets and wrote what they received from God. Would you ask, "How did John know what he spoke about in Revelation?"


Thank you so much for your kind words Mick, I share some sympathy with you in respect of misuse of gifts or misunderstanding but the central point we have not in common seems to be founded upon when and what is perfection.

By no co-incidence ( I do not believe in them), I just came accross the following which I copied to paste here.

It is an extract from a Christian analaysis of the significance of the Number 3 in scripture. The last part of this below points again to what I believe about the result of perfection and that although the Bible is the word of God indeed it is still in human terms a book bu yes it is rfull of God's spirit of course but we still live among sin, can you today stone a sinner? Not would you but by Gods lesson could you justly do so?

Here is the paste not written by me:

Hence three is a number of RESURRECTION, for it was on the third day that Jesus rose again from the dead. This was Divine in operation, and Divine in its prophetic foreshowing in the person of Jonah (Matthew 12:39,40; Luke 11:29; Jonah 1:17). It was the third day on which Jesus was "perfected" (Luke 13:32). It was at the third hour He was crucified; and it was for three hours (from the 6th to the 9th) that darkness shrouded the Divine Sufferer and Redeemer. The "loud voice" at the end of those twice three hours, when, "about the ninth hour," He cried, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46), shows completely that nothing of nature, nothing of the light or intelligence of this world, could give help in that hour of darkness. Does not this show us our impotence in the matter? Does it not prove our incapacity to aid in delivering ourselves from our natural condition?

With the light at the ninth hour came the Divine declaration, "It is finished." So divinely finished, completed, and perfected, that now there is no such darkness for those who have died with Christ. Light, uninterrupted light, shines upon all who are risen with Him; uninterrupted sunshine--even "the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." That three hours' darkness, therefore, testifies to our complete ruin, and our complete salvation, and shows that His people are "complete in Him."

While we are speaking of the Divine perfections of Christ, let us note the many marks and seals of this completeness.

"The Spirit, the water, and the blood," are the divinely perfect witness to the grace of God on earth (1 John 5:7).

The three years of His seeking fruit testifies to the completeness of Israel's failure (Luke 13:7).

His three-fold "it is written" shows that the Word of God is the perfection of all ministry (Matthew 4).

The Divine testimony concerning Him was complete in the threefold voice from Heaven (Matthew 3:17, 17:5; John 12:28).

He raised three persons from the dead.

The inscriptions on the Cross in three languages show the completeness of His rejection by Man.

The perfection of His offices are shown in His being Prophet, Priest, and King, raised up from among His brethren (Deuteronomy 177:15, 18:3-5, and 18:15).

The Divine completeness of the Shepherd's care (John 6:39), is seen in His revelations as--

* The "Good Shepherd" in death, John 10:14.

* The "Great Shepherd" in resurrection, Hebrews 13:20.

* The "Chief Shepherd" in glory, 1 Peter 4:5.

His three appearings in Hebrews 9 show that His work will not be divinely perfect and complete until He appears again.

1. He "hath appeared" in the end of the age to "put away sin," and to "bear the sins of many" (Hebrews 9:26,28).

2. "Now to appear in the presence of God for us," He has ascended into Heaven (v 24).

I believe this is closer to the truth and I personally know a very clean Christian who loves to pray and worship GOD in tongues and believes as I do it could indeed have been the langauge God spoke to Adam with in the beginning before the fall or at least the first language God used to Adam, it is beautiful and musical

God bless you my friend in Christ

3. He "shall appear" again part from all question of sin for those who look for Him (v 28).

freethinkingthuthseeker;1332725 wrote:

By no co-incidence ( I do not believe in them), I just came accross the following which I copied to paste here.

It is an extract from a Christian analaysis of the significance of the Number 3 in scripture. The last part of this below points again to what I believe about the result of perfection and that although the Bible is the word of God indeed it is still in human terms a book bu yes it is rfull of God's spirit of course but we still live among sin, can you today stone a sinner? Not would you but by Gods lesson could you justly do so?


Hello Kevin,

To be very honest Kev, I can't see how what the man wrote has any bearing on the coming of the perfect and tongues, prophecy and knowledge. If anything, the quote is mathematically off target regarding the argument about the coming of the perfect because of the simple fact that only two things, prophecy and knowledge, are affected by the coming of the perfect ... note what 1 Cor 13:9 & 10 say - tongues is out of the equation entirely.

God bless mate,

Mick