The Candidates on Racial Equality

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:53 pm

Clint;940518 wrote: I like your candidate but, like most Americans, I can never remember his name. So I've decided that even though McCain is part of the same old machine I would rather have him at the helm than someone who's only sailed in a lake.
This is bigger than the '08 election.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:24 pm

Clint;940487 wrote: Of the two most notable candidates John McCain has a history of representation. He has supported the rights of every American throughout his years of service. In the U.S. Navy he served side by side with people of every color. He has demonstrated over and over that he is a public servant, serving ALL Americans.

The more I see of him the more I like him.

The way he reacted to orders from his CIC is no indication to the way he will give orders if he became CIC.

Serving alongside people within the armed forces does not equate to supporting them.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:12 pm

K.Snyder;940354 wrote: Absolutely not...

That's laughable...:wah:...

Purely neutral with extreme emphasis on observation...At no point I considered Barack Obama unintelligent, non empathetic, or deprived of ambition...

What you're doing is underestimating the prevalence of racial inequality in America...By your saying "He recognizes a good opportunity and uses his talents to capitalize on it. Capitalize BIG! " is him capitalizing on, among other things, but equally as important if not more, is his luck in not being subject to the effects of racism...

My reference to Barack Obama being lucky was saying he was lucky for not having been effected of racism evident in his success to become a Presidential nominee not limited to his own control...

I have slavery and pathetic civil rights in American history to back that up...

No one would think for a minute that every African-American in America had a legitimate chance of being a Presidential candidate...They weren't as lucky as Barack Obama to not be oppressed by racisms' effects...
The reason I can't respond to this is because you've designed yourself a permanent out. No matter who I hold up as a success story --

Oprah Winfrey, Billionaire entertainment mogul

Barack Obama, Presidential candidate

Tiger Woods, cult celebrity of some obscure "sport"

Emma Chappell, Founder, United Bank of Philadelphia

Anthony Kendall, CEO, Mitchell & Titus LLP

Mark Pitts, President of Urban Music, Jive Records/Zomba Label Group

Charley Pride, country music legend

Bill Picket, legendary rodeo cowboy

Condoleezza Rice, US Secretary of State

Colin Powell, former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, former US Secretary of State

Stephen Carter, Yale Law School Professor

Thurgood Marshall, late great Justice, US Supreme Court

Christopher Gardner, former homeless father-turned-successful stock broker

you can point to each one and say, "Feh! Lucky." and all their hard work, risk, success, sacrifice ... all of it is instantly irrelevant. It's just luck. Well, if it's just luck, Oprah needs to start buying lottery tickets.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:48 pm

Bryn Mawr;940554 wrote: The way he reacted to orders from his CIC is no indication to the way he will give orders if he became CIC.

Serving alongside people within the armed forces does not equate to supporting them.

Given the choice, I'll take someone who has demonstrated the ability to follow the orders of the CIC over someone who hasn't done much at all. If you haven't demonstrated the abiity to follow you are missing the key skill of a leader.

Serving alongside people within the armed forces demonstates the ability to serve alongside people. You don't survive unless you are able to work with all kinds in very difficult conditions.

Speaking of difficult situations...name one Obama's been in. Maybe he had a particularly difficult group to organize or something. Wait a minute...did he ever actually get a community organized?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:52 pm

Clint;940640 wrote: Given the choice, I'll take someone who has demonstrated the ability to follow the orders of the CIC over someone who hasn't done much at all. If you haven't demonstrated the abiity to follow you are missing the key skill of a leader.

Serving alongside people within the armed forces demonstates the ability to serve alongside people. You don't survive unless you are able to work with all kinds in very difficult conditions.

Speaking of difficult situations...name one Obama's been in. Maybe he had a particularly difficult group to organize or something. Wait a minute...did he ever actually get a community organized?

So your major test for suitability for civilian leadership is military service?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:41 am

Bryn Mawr;940709 wrote: So your major test for suitability for civilian leadership is military service?
I think (thinking for Clint here

) that he's looking for evidence of leadership and performance under pressure. Military service is not a litmus test, but is a one-stop shop to find those qualities, when it's available. If there's no military record, sometimes it's difficult to ascertain if a person has those qualities.

Of course, correct me if I'm wrong here, Clint.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:57 am

Accountable;940628 wrote: The reason I can't respond to this is because you've designed yourself a permanent out. No matter who I hold up as a success story --

Oprah Winfrey, Billionaire entertainment mogul

Barack Obama, Presidential candidate

Tiger Woods, cult celebrity of some obscure "sport"

Emma Chappell, Founder, United Bank of Philadelphia

Anthony Kendall, CEO, Mitchell & Titus LLP

Mark Pitts, President of Urban Music, Jive Records/Zomba Label Group

Charley Pride, country music legend

Bill Picket, legendary rodeo cowboy

Condoleezza Rice, US Secretary of State

Colin Powell, former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, former US Secretary of State

Stephen Carter, Yale Law School Professor

Thurgood Marshall, late great Justice, US Supreme Court

Christopher Gardner, former homeless father-turned-successful stock broker

you can point to each one and say, "Feh! Lucky." and all their hard work, risk, success, sacrifice ... all of it is instantly irrelevant. It's just luck. Well, if it's just luck, Oprah needs to start buying lottery tickets.

It's not entirely luck...

I consider their success to be lucky in regards to not being subject to oppressive racism...I recognize they've had great determination and competence to get where they're at...

You've listed 13 people to whom have been lucky enough to not feel the effects of greater oppressive racism than that of millions upon millions of other peoples...The percentages don't lie...

One of which is Barrack Obama...

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:08 am

Accountable;940795 wrote: I think (thinking for Clint here

) that he's looking for evidence of leadership and performance under pressure. Military service is not a litmus test, but is a one-stop shop to find those qualities, when it's available. If there's no military record, sometimes it's difficult to ascertain if a person has those qualities.

Of course, correct me if I'm wrong here, Clint.

I think there's too much emphasis on leadership qualities than there is in the acknowledgment of political experiences...

One person in the White House is not the supreme controller of this country...I think we're giving too much credit to the power of the President of the Unites States of America...

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:25 am

K.Snyder;940804 wrote: It's not entirely luck...

I consider their success to be lucky in regards to not being subject to oppressive racism...I recognize they've had great determination and competence to get where they're at...

You've listed 13 people to whom have been lucky enough to not feel the effects of greater oppressive racism than that of millions upon millions of other peoples...The percentages don't lie...

One of which is Barrack Obama...
You, sir, speak from supreme ignorance. I beg you to check these people out before you write them off as just "lucky" and, by doing so, write off an entire ethnic group as completely without hope of succeeding unless fickle Lady Luck favors one at random.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:41 am

Accountable;940822 wrote: You, sir, speak from supreme ignorance. I beg you to check these people out before you write them off as just "lucky" and, by doing so, write off an entire ethnic group as completely without hope of succeeding unless fickle Lady Luck favors one at random.

No you're just completely misunderstanding me...

How you can deny the ill effects of racism in American history is beyond me...

For you to deny that the ill effects of racism in America were ever prevalent is "You, sir, speak from supreme ignorance."...

You seem to write these people off as having been oppressed equally to all minorities in the world...There's levels of hate associated with racism...Which leads me to my point that these people were not subject to the level of hate that would have hypothetically prevented them from being as successful as they are...

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:26 am

K.Snyder;940839 wrote: No you're just completely misunderstanding me...

How you can deny the ill effects of racism in American history is beyond me...

For you to deny that the ill effects of racism in America were ever prevalent is "You, sir, speak from supreme ignorance."...

You seem to write these people off as having been oppressed equally to all minorities in the world...There's levels of hate associated with racism...Which leads me to my point that these people were not subject to the level of hate that would have hypothetically prevented them from being as successful as they are...
Then help me understand. Where have I ever denied the effects of racism? I am in awe that these people faced racism head-on - most from birth (ever read Oprah's bio?) - and overcame all the prejudice, bigotry, nay-sayers, and hopelessness to triumphant success -- success that you toss aside as "lucky." Help me understand you.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:46 am

Accountable;940855 wrote: Then help me understand. Where have I ever denied the effects of racism? I am in awe that these people faced racism head-on - most from birth (ever read Oprah's bio?) - and overcame all the prejudice, bigotry, nay-sayers, and hopelessness to triumphant success -- success that you toss aside as "lucky." Help me understand you.

Because no matter how bad you or anyone else feels anyone you speak of to whom had overcome these obstacles had not faced the heaviest effects of racism like others have...Without selling any of these people short I absolutely admire to the utmost extent for them to overcome what they've gone through...But the fact still remains that they hadn't felt the heaviest effects of racism...Which to me is defined as enslavement and the levels associated with racisms' prevalence to begin with...

Oprah was not enslaved...

An example would be all of those to whom died before her from racist centered attacks...I think we can both agree that she were luckier than them can't we?...

Further, to say that Obama was not lucky having been born in Hawaii compared to Lynchburg Virginia 1961 is preposterous...Lynchburg...Doesn't take a genius to know what went on in that city...:wah:

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:01 am

K.Snyder;940875 wrote: Because no matter how bad you or anyone else feels anyone you speak of to whom had overcome these obstacles had not faced the heaviest effects of racism like others have...Without selling any of these people short I absolutely admire to the utmost extent for them to overcome what they've gone through...But the fact still remains that they hadn't felt the heaviest effects of racism...Which to me is defined as enslavement and the levels associated with racisms' prevalence to begin with...

Oprah was not enslaved...Good Lord! This isn't a competition that one of us has to win, it's a discussion. We were talking about US presidential candidates' stances on racial equality, so I've been confining at least my part of the discussion to the current US situation ... where slavery is illegal and virtually unheard of. No wonder we weren't agreeing. We were in separate conversations.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:27 am

Accountable;940948 wrote: Good Lord! This isn't a competition that one of us has to win, it's a discussion. We were talking about US presidential candidates' stances on racial equality, so I've been confining at least my part of the discussion to the current US situation ... where slavery is illegal and virtually unheard of. No wonder we weren't agreeing. We were in separate conversations.

You'd asked in every instance beginning with my logic derived from this post...

K.Snyder wrote:

Purely luck...The fact still remains that there are people in this country who are discriminated against...Obamas success does not suggest the effects of racism are non existent rather he were lucky enough to not be effected by racism...In response to this...

Accountable wrote: He apparently wasn't too effected by racism and inequality. In fact, his skin color seems to be the only thing he had in common until adulthood when he purposely sought out those that more closely fit the stereotype of black radical. Followed by...Accountable wrote: Calling Obama purely lucky sells him short. The man has intelligence, savvy, and drive. He recognizes a good opportunity and uses his talents to capitalize on it. Capitalize BIG!

What you've posted is an insult to the very group you're trying to defend.

From which led to this... K.Snyder wrote: Absolutely not...

That's laughable......

Purely neutral with extreme emphasis on observation...At no point I considered Barack Obama unintelligent, non empathetic, or deprived of ambition...

What you're doing is underestimating the prevalence of racial inequality in America...By your saying "He recognizes a good opportunity and uses his talents to capitalize on it. Capitalize BIG! " is him capitalizing on, among other things, but equally as important if not more, is his luck in not being subject to the effects of racism...

My reference to Barack Obama being lucky was saying he was lucky for not having been effected of racism evident in his success to become a Presidential nominee not limited to his own control...

I have slavery and pathetic civil rights in American history to back that up...

No one would think for a minute that every African-American in America had a legitimate chance of being a Presidential candidate...They weren't as lucky as Barack Obama to not be oppressed by racisms' effects... Which ultimately leading to you're completely misunderstanding me, from which you'd asked...Accountable;940855 wrote: Then help me understand. Where have I ever denied the effects of racism? I am in awe that these people faced racism head-on - most from birth (ever read Oprah's bio?) - and overcame all the prejudice, bigotry, nay-sayers, and hopelessness to triumphant success -- success that you toss aside as "lucky." Help me understand you. From which I'd made it quit clear of Obama being a primary example of being one of the lucky ones to whom this entire argument originated from with this...K.Snyder;940875 wrote: Because no matter how bad you or anyone else feels anyone you speak of to whom had overcome these obstacles had not faced the heaviest effects of racism like others have...Without selling any of these people short I absolutely admire to the utmost extent for them to overcome what they've gone through...But the fact still remains that they hadn't felt the heaviest effects of racism...Which to me is defined as enslavement and the levels associated with racisms' prevalence to begin with...

Oprah was not enslaved...

An example would be all of those to whom died before her from racist centered attacks...I think we can both agree that she were luckier than them can't we?...

Further, to say that Obama was not lucky having been born in Hawaii compared to Lynchburg Virginia 1961 is preposterous...Lynchburg...Doesn't take a genius to know what went on in that city...:wah: Which lead to this...Accountable;940948 wrote: Good Lord! This isn't a competition that one of us has to win, it's a discussion. We were talking about US presidential candidates' stances on racial equality, so I've been confining at least my part of the discussion to the current US situation ... where slavery is illegal and virtually unheard of. No wonder we weren't agreeing. We were in separate conversations.Ultimately leading to your sidestepping my question before all of this insued which would have led is on to the discusssion without the questioning of logic being...

K.Snyder;940411 wrote:

You feel that Affirmative action creates opportunities at the expense of people of the upper class making those very same people subject to ill living conditions?......If you have an answer for this we could presume the discussion...

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:47 am

Accountable;940795 wrote: I think (thinking for Clint here

) that he's looking for evidence of leadership and performance under pressure. Military service is not a litmus test, but is a one-stop shop to find those qualities, when it's available. If there's no military record, sometimes it's difficult to ascertain if a person has those qualities.

Of course, correct me if I'm wrong here, Clint.

Thank you Acc. no correction needed. I guess I need to get up a lot earlier.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:39 am

K.Snyder wrote:

You feel that Affirmative action creates opportunities at the expense of people of the upper class making those very same people subject to ill living conditions?...Restricted only to upper class? Of course not.

Peers, K. Affirmative action separates American from American, setting up special legal status for one over another. This promotes, if not actually creates, animosity between Americans, which is the opposite result of the original intent. Affirmative Action drives a wedge between peers, regardless of financial status.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:13 am

jimbo;940956 wrote: hey dont get them knickers in a twist

i do believe this cartoon cheered you up last time :wah:

http://www.hahastop.com/pictures/Rednecks.htm
:wah::wah::-2:wah::wah:

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:00 pm

Accountable;941034 wrote: Restricted only to upper class? Of course not.

Peers, K. Affirmative action separates American from American, setting up special legal status for one over another. This promotes, if not actually creates, animosity between Americans, which is the opposite result of the original intent. Affirmative Action drives a wedge between peers, regardless of financial status.

I wasn't necessarily emphasizing on only the upper class but I'll take that as a yes no doubt...

I have to disagree...The upper class are peoples already proven to have overcome animosity...I feel any peoples of the upper class already has a head start in the opurtunities of life therefor shouldn't at all be effected by Affirmative action...

However this was the case more predominantly within the most current past I would say transitioning into what we now see as a very real culture shock...

With all of the businesses going overseas and added inflation I think that what was an unprecedented state of opportunity is now becoming extremely difficult for the lower to mid upper class citizens of America and even a worse state of opportunity for the lower classes of America...

I do agree that Affirmative action is implemented too much...Should be amended...

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:48 pm

should be eradicated.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:19 am

Jester;941783 wrote: MCCain all the way on this issue:

Silence is best.

I wouldnt touch race relations with a ten foot pole... Everybody is equal, no preferential treatment whatsoever. Stop all data collecting, stop all race jargon by the goverment. No attempt to equalize racial numbers should ever be attempted anywhere.

And for the record, gender is not race.
But he's apparently leaving the current preferential rules in place. :-2 How's that right?