sagan wrote: The short answer? According to Einstein, gravity is a product of matter warping spacetime. Long answer? Way beyond my ability to explain.
Yes, they had the same potential level of intelligence as 21st century man. Why?
Intelligence does not require a supernatural creator.
Intelligence takes many forms. Man, according to the Bible in Genesis, was given "Dominion" over life on the planet. It did not say that there was no intelligence in life. It was the interpretation of man that said that animals were unintelligent.
Ask any pet owner if they think that their animals are sentient and you will get a guarded answer of "Yes, I think they do but don't tell anybody else because they will think that I am crazy for saying that!"
The Bible's evolution has been that of from Jewish to Christian to Koran in the Western Culture. While everyone is claiming to be the only right portion of being God's representatives on earth. Thois has given rise to racism, tribalism and all the other isms that come into play but conveniently forgets and downplays the reality of we all come from the same place. We have human forefathers that came from the same stock who travelled the world and populated the land masses.
Because of the environmental and geographical locations on the different parts of the world the human beings took on the physical attributes that were dictated by the conditions under which they lived for thousands of generations.
The Blacks from Africa are skin that has an abundance of melanin that make the skin not as susceptible to the damage of bright, strong sunlight. The noses are larger to accomodate the thick warm environment.
The Orientals are dominated by the fatty tissue that grew around their eyes to ward off the effects of the freezing temperatures of their environment. The Orientls have smaller noses because of the lessened amount of cold, freezing air into the lungs.
The white are of less melanin because their environment had less sunshine and were , hence, white from the lack of melanin. Noses of all sizes and shapes.
Regardless, where did this come from. It has to have come from somewhere. It cannot just have been there. It is a cop out to say that it had no beginning and has no end. How long is a God day?
In the beginning....
In the beginning....
sagan wrote: Ken, are we talking about where intelligence comes from? Where gravity comes from? Or where the universe comes from?
All of the above are related. The timing is what we are asking about. String theory. You know!
All of the above are related. The timing is what we are asking about. String theory. You know!
In the beginning....
koan :-6
You've made some good points. Science deals with the physical realm whereas spriturality deals with the spiritual realm.
It was rather nice of Sagan to tell me what he thinks I've experienced several times throughout my life and what I experience on a daily basis. Since he hasn't had the experience he really doesn't know what he is talking about.
The "Mind of God" by Paul Davies a mathematical physicist is extrememly eye opening. He is certainly among a growning number of scientists who feel there is more to this universe then its physicality.
Shalom
Ted :-6
You've made some good points. Science deals with the physical realm whereas spriturality deals with the spiritual realm.
It was rather nice of Sagan to tell me what he thinks I've experienced several times throughout my life and what I experience on a daily basis. Since he hasn't had the experience he really doesn't know what he is talking about.
The "Mind of God" by Paul Davies a mathematical physicist is extrememly eye opening. He is certainly among a growning number of scientists who feel there is more to this universe then its physicality.
Shalom
Ted :-6
In the beginning....
Ted wrote: koan :-6
You've made some good points. Science deals with the physical realm whereas spriturality deals with the spiritual realm.
It was rather nice of Sagan to tell me what he thinks I've experienced several times throughout my life and what I experience on a daily basis. Since he hasn't had the experience he really doesn't know what he is talking about.
The "Mind of God" by Paul Davies a mathematical physicist is extrememly eye opening. He is certainly among a growning number of scientists who feel there is more to this universe then its physicality.
Shalom
Ted :-6
I will have to write it down and look for that book. Is it new or could I find it in the library?
kensloft, what was wrong with the answer that a "day" is a sequence of events? How long those events take to happen determines the "time" it takes. Why are the numbers of hours and minutes more important than what happens in them?
If I had to guess I'd say it was seven of everything...7 seconds, 7minutes, 7hours, 7days, 7weeks, 7months, 7years,...decades, centuries...keep going. (I think it is still being created)
You've made some good points. Science deals with the physical realm whereas spriturality deals with the spiritual realm.
It was rather nice of Sagan to tell me what he thinks I've experienced several times throughout my life and what I experience on a daily basis. Since he hasn't had the experience he really doesn't know what he is talking about.
The "Mind of God" by Paul Davies a mathematical physicist is extrememly eye opening. He is certainly among a growning number of scientists who feel there is more to this universe then its physicality.
Shalom
Ted :-6
I will have to write it down and look for that book. Is it new or could I find it in the library?
kensloft, what was wrong with the answer that a "day" is a sequence of events? How long those events take to happen determines the "time" it takes. Why are the numbers of hours and minutes more important than what happens in them?
If I had to guess I'd say it was seven of everything...7 seconds, 7minutes, 7hours, 7days, 7weeks, 7months, 7years,...decades, centuries...keep going. (I think it is still being created)
In the beginning....
koan wrote: I will have to write it down and look for that book. Is it new or could I find it in the library?
kensloft, what was wrong with the answer that a "day" is a sequence of events? How long those events take to happen determines the "time" it takes. Why are the numbers of hours and minutes more important than what happens in them?
If I had to guess I'd say it was seven of everything...7 seconds, 7minutes, 7hours, 7days, 7weeks, 7months, 7years,...decades, centuries...keep going. (I think it is still being created)
Well seeing as how you are putting it this way then I have to agree with what you are saying. That is what I meant. Your original explanation did not seem to encompass what you are saying now. Excuse me if I didn't read what you were saying properly. It does seem semantical at the moment.
kensloft, what was wrong with the answer that a "day" is a sequence of events? How long those events take to happen determines the "time" it takes. Why are the numbers of hours and minutes more important than what happens in them?
If I had to guess I'd say it was seven of everything...7 seconds, 7minutes, 7hours, 7days, 7weeks, 7months, 7years,...decades, centuries...keep going. (I think it is still being created)
Well seeing as how you are putting it this way then I have to agree with what you are saying. That is what I meant. Your original explanation did not seem to encompass what you are saying now. Excuse me if I didn't read what you were saying properly. It does seem semantical at the moment.
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chonsigirl
- Posts: 33633
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:28 am
In the beginning....
Descartes: I think, therefore I am.
You can take it up a notch, and make it:
I think, therefore I believe.
Intelligence is present in many forms throughout the universe, both seen and unseen. It is the use of intelligence that matters the most, using the potential one has.
*sitting in a classrooom trying to use mine* :-6
You can take it up a notch, and make it:
I think, therefore I believe.
Intelligence is present in many forms throughout the universe, both seen and unseen. It is the use of intelligence that matters the most, using the potential one has.
*sitting in a classrooom trying to use mine* :-6
In the beginning....
StelZ wrote: Hi chonsigirl
Dolphins 'are' too, but I don't suppose they think about it too much!
My point is its not just luck that humans are the only animals to have the ability to think and hypothesise. We were (after all) created in Gods image.
Aparently...
Hypothesise can and is done by any animal. It is the concentration and degree of communication that differentiates the human from the rest.
Dolphins 'are' too, but I don't suppose they think about it too much!
My point is its not just luck that humans are the only animals to have the ability to think and hypothesise. We were (after all) created in Gods image.
Aparently...
Hypothesise can and is done by any animal. It is the concentration and degree of communication that differentiates the human from the rest.
In the beginning....
Ted wrote: It is quite possible that the story of Noah and the flood is a legend that had its beginning in a local flood. The Tigris used to flood as does the Nile on an annual basis.
Shalom
Ted :-6
I was thinking the same thing. They say the Mediterranean was originally dry, and that at some time, a break near Gibraltar flooded the whole thing at once. Man, that must have been a heck of a tsunami.
Or maybe it's referring to an interglacial period when all the glaciers melted at once, kind of "Waterworld" style. there's evidence that occasionally, the Earth changes it's magnetic pole, so perhaps that's a reason to explain this.
Didn't I read somewhere that Geologists are convinced there really was a flood, because of a certain soil layer seen at the same depth worldwide? or was that an asteroid strike?
Shalom
Ted :-6
I was thinking the same thing. They say the Mediterranean was originally dry, and that at some time, a break near Gibraltar flooded the whole thing at once. Man, that must have been a heck of a tsunami.
Or maybe it's referring to an interglacial period when all the glaciers melted at once, kind of "Waterworld" style. there's evidence that occasionally, the Earth changes it's magnetic pole, so perhaps that's a reason to explain this.
Didn't I read somewhere that Geologists are convinced there really was a flood, because of a certain soil layer seen at the same depth worldwide? or was that an asteroid strike?
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
In the beginning....
Jives :-6
According to many geologists there is not one shred of evidence for an overall who world flood. There have been many floods and of course techtonic plate movements that have caused land masses to rise above or sink below sea level throughout the millenia.
Shalom
Ted :-6
According to many geologists there is not one shred of evidence for an overall who world flood. There have been many floods and of course techtonic plate movements that have caused land masses to rise above or sink below sea level throughout the millenia.
Shalom
Ted :-6
In the beginning....
It is amazing that even the scientists disagree amongst themselves. I guess I'll stick with the scientists I've read and the ones I happen to know personally. Sagan has his little clique and hey, so do I. LOL
Shalom
Ted :-6
Shalom
Ted :-6
In the beginning....
I'm in neither clique! Don't offend me. I am very interested in geology and I have never seen aything that resembles a forty day flood across the earth.
Much as Lake Iroquois broke and created the great Lakes in North America... so did the flood of the Mediterranean Region. It did not come from the west but the north and east according to findings. Figure a flood of the Euphates, the Nile and this deluge all occurring at the same time. Spell? Wipe out.
Much as Lake Iroquois broke and created the great Lakes in North America... so did the flood of the Mediterranean Region. It did not come from the west but the north and east according to findings. Figure a flood of the Euphates, the Nile and this deluge all occurring at the same time. Spell? Wipe out.
In the beginning....
I read a great earthquake busted open the former sliver of land over the Bosphorus at Turkey's bridge to Europe and a once much larger Black Sea roared through the newly opened channel and inundated large areas of the coastal Middle East, North Africa and southern Europe. The lowland plains of Ukraine and southern Russia have shown marine fossils, leading one to believe the area was once under the big Black Sea. A global flood after 40 days of rain? Bunk. That book also speaks of talking snakes, devils, angels and other ridiculous fiction. Science is slowly uncovering our history on this planet. Until I see or read of a single shred of proof there is an old man in the sky that knows everyone's birthday's I'll stick to science.
"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group that believes you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas millionaires, or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." [font=Arial Narrow][/font]
President Dwight D. Eisenhower Nov. 08, 1954
President Dwight D. Eisenhower Nov. 08, 1954
In the beginning....
David :-6
As a Christian I can go along with almost everything you've said. So we have no problem there.
Shalom
Ted :-6
As a Christian I can go along with almost everything you've said. So we have no problem there.
Shalom
Ted :-6
In the beginning....
Ted, I must admit I'm surprised at your agreement with my post. Every Christian I've run into rejects all logic instantly and begins the sermon about how I will be sorry if I don't accept deism. You Canadians are a few steps above the evangelical fundamentalist strain we have in in the U.S. RedStates!!! Greetings to British Columbia!!
"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group that believes you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas millionaires, or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." [font=Arial Narrow][/font]
President Dwight D. Eisenhower Nov. 08, 1954
President Dwight D. Eisenhower Nov. 08, 1954
In the beginning....
My toilet flooded once. Oh, yeah, and a couple of streets in the neighbourhood. Both times it felt like the world was ending. :-6
In the beginning....
koan wrote: My toilet flooded once. Oh, yeah, and a couple of streets in the neighbourhood. Both times it felt like the world was ending. :-6
If there were no sharks coming out of the bowl then the probabilities that there was a flood meant that there was a from none to zilch probability. What else causes a flood in the toilet bowl?
If there were no sharks coming out of the bowl then the probabilities that there was a flood meant that there was a from none to zilch probability. What else causes a flood in the toilet bowl?
In the beginning....
I just saw a fascinating show on "String Theory" yesterday...fascinating stuff. The leading physicists think they have finally linked all the theories of Einstein and Bohr.
Apparently, the entire Universe is made up of tiny vibrating "strings" of energy. The way they vibrate determines the kind of matter they generate. So...get this...the whole Universe may turn out to be...
A song in the mind of God.
Apparently, the entire Universe is made up of tiny vibrating "strings" of energy. The way they vibrate determines the kind of matter they generate. So...get this...the whole Universe may turn out to be...
A song in the mind of God.
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
In the beginning....
sagan wrote: Rather ironic really, someone who believes in invisible, magical beings demanding scientific proofs...
I'll do you a deal. If you agree, I'll give you a source that will explain a logical, feasible, scientific explanation for the creation of the universe - with mathematical proof backed up with empirical evidence and observations, on the condition you give me a source that gives proof of the existence of god using the same criteria.
The bottom line is that we don't know yet precisely how the universe came about. But "we don't know, yet" is the default position. Not - "we don't know, therefore god did it". As a godless infidel I'm quite happy with the "we don't know, yet" idea, because the areas of human ignorance that allow the concept of god(s) to operate in is getting smaller and smaller on an almost daily basis. The God of Gaps is getting squeezed into a tightening circle of the unknown.
Are you sure you aren't an agnostic? Prove it before I believe it but if you can't, then we will wait for the proof before I admit that there is a God? It's good to hear that you haven't discounted Him entirely.
I'll do you a deal. If you agree, I'll give you a source that will explain a logical, feasible, scientific explanation for the creation of the universe - with mathematical proof backed up with empirical evidence and observations, on the condition you give me a source that gives proof of the existence of god using the same criteria.
The bottom line is that we don't know yet precisely how the universe came about. But "we don't know, yet" is the default position. Not - "we don't know, therefore god did it". As a godless infidel I'm quite happy with the "we don't know, yet" idea, because the areas of human ignorance that allow the concept of god(s) to operate in is getting smaller and smaller on an almost daily basis. The God of Gaps is getting squeezed into a tightening circle of the unknown.
Are you sure you aren't an agnostic? Prove it before I believe it but if you can't, then we will wait for the proof before I admit that there is a God? It's good to hear that you haven't discounted Him entirely.
In the beginning....
sagan wrote: But the need for love and comfort that homo-sapiens feel as a social animal has existed for as long as our species has been around. It may comfort some to feel that this existence is the result of an almighty and loving creator, but that need for comfort doesn't equate to it being true. You look at humanity and see your god's greatest creation. I look at humanity and I see a hairless primate. If humanity is your gods pride and joy, then why do we see the effects of evolutionary mutation in our species? Why do we see so many design faults in the human body?
How can an omnipotent, omnicognisant god create/design something that wasn't good? How, in fact, can he make any kind of mistake at all?
I've often been amazed how a theist can hold this position. On one hand you can accept the validity of the scientific explanations for the physical world, and presumably, the methods these explanations are reached - hypothesize, test, observe, measure, record and repeat results. But then have no problem in throwing the scientific methodology that you believe serves well enough for explaining everything else out the window when the existence of 'god(s)'is under discussion. Incidentally, the carbon molecule isn't the basic element for everything, only life on this planet.
Chaos is ordering itself every second of every day, from the macroscopic to the quantum level.
No, not a case of forgetting. The problem is that some won't accept that it has been 'given' to us. We won't accept it has been 'given' because there is not, and never has been, a single shred of evidence for a supernatural 'giver'.
Science cant disprove Gods existence either. Occam's razor can be used the other way too, y'know.
How can an omnipotent, omnicognisant god create/design something that wasn't good? How, in fact, can he make any kind of mistake at all?
I've often been amazed how a theist can hold this position. On one hand you can accept the validity of the scientific explanations for the physical world, and presumably, the methods these explanations are reached - hypothesize, test, observe, measure, record and repeat results. But then have no problem in throwing the scientific methodology that you believe serves well enough for explaining everything else out the window when the existence of 'god(s)'is under discussion. Incidentally, the carbon molecule isn't the basic element for everything, only life on this planet.
Chaos is ordering itself every second of every day, from the macroscopic to the quantum level.
No, not a case of forgetting. The problem is that some won't accept that it has been 'given' to us. We won't accept it has been 'given' because there is not, and never has been, a single shred of evidence for a supernatural 'giver'.
Science cant disprove Gods existence either. Occam's razor can be used the other way too, y'know.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
In the beginning....
sagan wrote: No Ken, I'm a strong atheist. I believe the existence of god(s) is on a par with the existence of square circles. Square circles can be imagined as a concept, without acknowledging the possibility of their existence.
Norse, Greek, Egyptian or whatever god's realm?
Norse, Greek, Egyptian or whatever god's realm?
In the beginning....
I was thinking about how this was actually about how life began and less about how sagan feels about God and little pink bunnies :wah: . (Although that would be a great thread on it's own!)
I do wonder. Are there any non Christians who find something interesting in Genesis or is it discountable completely to non believers. Is there not a lot of wonderful metaphor for those who don't take it literally?
I do wonder. Are there any non Christians who find something interesting in Genesis or is it discountable completely to non believers. Is there not a lot of wonderful metaphor for those who don't take it literally?
In the beginning....
koan wrote: I was thinking about how this was actually about how life began and less about how sagan feels about God and little pink bunnies :wah: . (Although that would be a great thread on it's own!)
I do wonder. Are there any non Christians who find something interesting in Genesis or is it discountable completely to non believers. Is there not a lot of wonderful metaphor for those who don't take it literally?
Weisenheimer.
I do wonder. Are there any non Christians who find something interesting in Genesis or is it discountable completely to non believers. Is there not a lot of wonderful metaphor for those who don't take it literally?
Weisenheimer.
In the beginning....
sagan wrote: Ever heard of the phrase "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof? " I could claim the existence of any number of impossible things on the basis that you can't prove they don't exist.
You cant prove your parents love you........but you just somehow know they do.
You cant prove your parents love you........but you just somehow know they do.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
In the beginning....
StelZ wrote: I take it then you are open to the idea that God does exist.
I'm glad.
My faith has helped me on countless occasion. I can't prove that either.
But the greatest thing about beleiving in God is that even if he DOESN'T exist, I have lost nothing! :-6
I cant imagine my life without it. (faith)
I'm glad.
My faith has helped me on countless occasion. I can't prove that either.
But the greatest thing about beleiving in God is that even if he DOESN'T exist, I have lost nothing! :-6
I cant imagine my life without it. (faith)
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
In the beginning....
I actually think I could prove my parents love me through all the selfless acts and kindnesses they have shown me for no other reason. Although, sadly, I don't think everyone could prove it of their parents.