seal cull to go ahead in canada

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:46 pm

G#Gill;819504 wrote: Spot, I am just putting my opinion down. I thought that was what it was all about ! Try looking up consistency and continuity. Making a post doesn't delete all the previous comments you've made in a thread, that's how it mimics conversation instead of Hyde Park Corner.

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:50 pm

Maybe what we should be asking here is do animals feel pain. No one can deny that they do! Regardless of your beliefs - pain is pain!!

If this HAS to be done .... maybe these 'humans' should look at a more humane way of doing it .... unless of course they get some sort of pleasure out of clubbing an animal to death!!!

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:56 pm

There has to be less pain involved in having your head crushed by a heavy blow which shatters the skull than by any alternative form of death yet invented. The thread's already pointed out why being shot in these circumstances is less humane.

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:07 pm

You would have thought, with todays technology, that 'they' would have come up with a more humane way of doing this!

Oh well, as long as 'they' sleep well at night, and are not too troubled by their actions, or haunted by dreams of someone 'culling' their kids in that manner, then all's good.

Not company I would choose to keep !!!!

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:10 pm

spot;819569 wrote: There has to be less pain involved in having your head crushed by a heavy blow which shatters the skull than by any alternative form of death yet invented. The thread's already pointed out why being shot in these circumstances is less humane.

Maybe some people just don't believe that's true Spot.....sorry, but there has to be a better alternative....

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:20 pm

I suggest you ask the next Veterinarian you meet. (don't Americans have a different word for Veterinarian?)

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:27 pm

spot;819592 wrote: I suggest you ask the next Veterinarian you meet. (don't Americans have a different word for Veterinarian?)

No, same word, but I don't think that a vet would like the head bashing things...maybe they'd recommend birth control for the seals.

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:31 pm

We live in entirely different cultures then. Seriously, ask one, I think you're quite mistaken in what you assume they'll say. "There has to be less pain involved in having your head crushed by a heavy blow which shatters the skull than by any alternative form of death yet invented" - is it true or not, that's the question.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:34 pm

spot;819592 wrote: I suggest you ask the next Veterinarian you meet. (don't Americans have a different word for Veterinarian?)

No, we call them veterinarians or vets.

I think the very fact that we, a bunch of knowingless humans, are here rationalizing the incredible pain we cause to another species, by claiming they have no soul so it's not murder/it's okay, it's up to us to repopulate the fishes, and being hakapiked in the head is better than being shot, just goes to show what kind of collective creature we are as a species. I won't get in the soul argument because I can't offer the "proof" that is requested but I really am stunned by that. I think Pheasant is correct in that perhaps we should just start considering whether or not animals feel pain. And without giving me a bunch of bible hoo-ha which means nothing to me, I'd like to hear some ideas as to why we seem to think we are the only important, valuable species on this planet and where we get off killing as we do.

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:05 pm

Jester;819610 wrote: I understand that quick high volt electrocution is the prefered method for killing stock animals. When we slughtered we slugged them in the head with a pointed mall. I have seen both nethods and performed both methods, the pointed mall is the quickest least suffering way possible. The electrocution method is said to render them unable to determine pain.

Pain is an automonic response though, it does not take higher reasoning to 'feel pain'. I would not consider feeling pain as a indication for having a soul.

I really do not want to enter into this religion/soul thing! I do not care about religion - what I do care about is if a person is a 'decent person'. I don't care what/who you worship and I will accept you based on your values to those living around you. The people who do this are disgusting!!

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:09 pm

RedGlitter;819605 wrote: I think the very fact that we, a bunch of knowingless humans, are here rationalizing the incredible pain we cause to another species, by claiming they have no soul so it's not murder/it's okay,
Since it was me you quoted, perhaps you'd like to show me where I said that? Or anything like that?

I've said we don't, in clubbing them, cause incredible pain, I've said it's the nearest option that exists to painless.

I don't regard anything to do with "soul" as relevant, I don't understand what people mean by the word, I don't know how they distinguish what they mean from "spirit" and I've yet to find anyone prepared to discuss the meaning at all. Though I do sometimes ask.

I do, however, restrict the word "murder" to the deliberate killing of humans. That's just a historical accident of language.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:13 pm

It does appear that every time human beings turn up in a new place there are mass extinctions. There's little direct proof that humans were responsible, but considerable circumstantial evidence:

It happened in the Americas, Australia and New Zealand. When you consider that the European invasion of the Americas wiped out the Passenger Pigeon and nearly the Bison, and I gathered from a documentary today the Maori definitely wiped out the Moa in what Europeans would call Mediaeval times (they then went on to set up nature reserves, so it appears humanity CAN learn and we don't HAVE to die in misery and cannibalism like the Easter Islanders) it seems we have to accept that as a species our hands are soaked in blood.

To some extent fair enough - we had to kill to survive. But the effects of climate change (almost certainly human caused) seem likely to dwarf anything we've seen in human history in terms of mass extinctions. Estimates I've seen vary from 20% to 50% of all plant and animal species worldwide over the next 100 to 200 years. (Data from IPCC, The Pew Centre (American) and the EU)

I notice that no-one is saying what a 1.7 to 2.3 degree centigrade average temperature rise would do to Africa's ability to support life - and Africa is consistently mentioned as one of the places which will get ABOVE average temperature rises.

Loosely, sea levels are expectected to rise between about 10 and 70 cm by 2100. This change will not be the same everywhere, but Bangladesh is already largely on stilts and I don't see how they can survive as a nation. What 150,000,000 starving Bangladeshis will do to the region is anyone's guess, but it won't be nice, and it won't increase the political stability of the region.

As well as all this we must assume that the great oceanic currents such as the Gulf and Humboldt will be affected - El Nino events are already known to have increased over the last two decades and the increased sightings of whales in the North Sea and Thames are indications that the deep ocean currents I gather they use to navigate are already disturbed. I don't know what this means for fish stocks, but I suspect culls are going to be the least of your seals concerns over the next few decades.

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:19 pm

Jester;819634 wrote: Sorry pheas, Ill bow out of this discussion... I can see I'm just too different on this subject to be able to not offend others.

:-4 at you Jester.

I just don't understand how people can claim to be caring/good people and say that this is okay ... it just blows my mind.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:23 pm

spot;819636 wrote: Since it was me you quoted, perhaps you'd like to show me where I said that? Or anything like that?

I've said we don't, in clubbing them, cause incredible pain, I've said it's the nearest option that exists to painless.

I don't regard anything to do with "soul" as relevant, I don't understand what people mean by the word, I don't know how they distinguish what they mean from "spirit" and I've yet to find anyone prepared to discuss the meaning at all. Though I do sometimes ask.

I do, however, restrict the word "murder" to the deliberate killing of humans. That's just a historical accident of language.

No, because I wasn't quoting you.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:24 pm

Of course seals are clubbed to death to save the dwindling fish population that feeds Canada. :rolleyes:

No mention of the massive fur trading from this unfortunate act!

But I suppose that's just a by product, a perk ?

The pups can't surely be killed for food, as large numbers of rotting corpses are left where they're clubbed.

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:36 pm

RedGlitter;819657 wrote: No, because I wasn't quoting you.

Jesus H Christ...

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=60

Give me strength.

Since it was me you quoted, perhaps you'd like to show me where I said that? Or anything like that?

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:42 pm

I blaspheme for emphasis around once a year when something extraordinary has happened and I want people to be aware of the extent of my frustration.

I'm mildly puzzled as to why it actually qualifies as blasphemy, I usually restrain myself to blimey or, if pressed, By The Bowels Of The Living Lord. What does the H add as an emphasizer? It seems very American.

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:45 pm

Jester;819672 wrote: Spot swore! I saw it!:wah:

He did swear Jester....I saw it too....:wah::wah:

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:46 pm

Jester;819672 wrote: Spot swore! I saw it!:wah:

Yes ya did Spot .... I'm telling :wah:

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:55 pm

Jester;819682 wrote: Ya got me, if I said that in my home growing up I'd still be chopping wood...:-2

The most extreme expression allowed to any of my children was "God's Teeth!" which, it must be said, they did actually use once they'd discovered it was permitted. They were looked at in awe when they employed it at school.

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:14 pm

Spot, the term "Jesus H. Christ" is a slang term serving as a mild profanity. Some say it started with comics misprouncing the words in prayers..."Our Father who art in Heaven, Harold be my name..." or it means "Holy," or a chromosome joke about not having a dad......"Haploid"

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:15 pm

Sorry to drag this off topic

YOU drag things off topic? Blimey. My post was meant to be about humans killing things and putting the seal cull into that context, but it ended up wandering all over the place!

Any way I can remove it?

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:26 pm

Hello Clod:-6

Sorry Clod, no one meant to take this thread or your post off topic, but it does happen often. Think our members are very comfortable with each other and tend to just chill a bit sometimes when things may get a bit serious. There was no disrespect for your post:-6 And, no young man, you may not delete your post:wah: and that's that:wah:

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:36 pm

Sorry, I wasn't being clear - I meant that MY post was much more off topic than Jester's!

And now this is off topic! Augh- am descending into off-topic Hell! :wah::wah:

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:36 pm

Kathy Ellen;819701 wrote: Spot, the term "Jesus H. Christ" is a slang term serving as a mild profanity. Some say it started with comics misprouncing the words in prayers..."Our Father who art in Heaven, Harold be my name..." or it means "Holy," or a chromosome joke about not having a dad......"Haploid"

I think we can discount chromosomes, the American Dialect Society has it recorded from 1923.

I like one above the rest. All those emblazoned IHS symbols abbreviate Iesus Hominum Salvator, Jesus Saviour of the World. The idea that someone mistook Hominum for a middle name is pretty good. I'm sure it's not what happened but it's pleasing.

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:39 pm

Then she should learn to use quotes more precisely. "I wasn't quoting you" is just such an astounding thing to respond with given the circumstances.

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:43 pm

rjwould;819719 wrote: Nice post, Clod...I highlighted the first sentence only to point out that this is true only after Christianity was introduced. Prior to that, at least here in America, native Americans respected and co-existed very well with nature and animals. I'm sure Chonsi can elaborate on this if she wants to.
You don't think it was them that eliminated the entire continent-full of megafauna previously then?

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:43 pm

I think that both Jester and Clodhopper need some time out in the naughty chair to discuss proper behavior...WELL, what are ya waitin for.....get goin and have a nice chat boys....:p

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:44 pm

rjwould;819721 wrote: Point taken.

Huh

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:45 pm

Kathy Ellen;819723 wrote: I think that both Jester and Clodhopper need some time out in the naughty chair to discuss proper behavior...WELL, what are ya waitin for.....get goin and have a nice chat boys....:p

Yes you are bad boys .... ya tell em Kathy :wah:

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:48 pm

rjwould;819728 wrote: I'm not calling it a swear, Spot, but in America it's easy to cross boundaries in language and seem offensive or extreme.

I think you stayed well within your own personal limits tho.

:wah::wah::wah:

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:49 pm

rjwould;819728 wrote: I'm not calling it a swear, Spot, but in America it's easy to cross boundaries in language and seem offensive or extreme.

I think you stayed well within your own personal limits tho.

On the contrary, I reached my limit.

I had in mind the American lion, the saber-toothed tiger and the mammoths when I used that imprecise word earlier. All were there at the same time as aboriginal man, all gone. Oh - and the mammoth-bones with tool scratches from where they were cut up.

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:51 pm

rjwould;819728 wrote: I'm not calling it a swear, Spot, but in America it's easy to cross boundaries in language and seem offensive or extreme.

I think you stayed well within your own personal limits tho.

Hey you :-6

We're all just joking now:wah:

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:53 pm

rjwould;819719 wrote: I highlighted the first sentence only to point out that this is true only after Christianity was introduced. Prior to that, at least here in America, native Americans respected and co-existed very well with nature and animals. I'm sure Chonsi can elaborate on this if she wants to.

Um, I thought the Clovis people, who I believe were the first humans into N.America via the Bering land bridge were reckoned responsible for the extinction of about 30 species, including Mammoth, Mastodon, various types of lion, two species of camel, and four of horses. I knew a little about this, but have just seen a few documentaries which reminded me of the little I knew (Clovis spear points and first people into N.America) and filled in a lot of detail. After that they may have settled into a life more in tune with nature, but they'd done the big killing already: at the time you start finding Clovis spearpoints all the big animals vanish...

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:55 pm

Kathy Ellen;819734 wrote: Hey you :-6

We're all just joking now:wah:

:yh_giggle:yh_giggle:yh_giggle

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:58 pm

[QUOTE=Kathy Ellen;819723]I think that both Jester and Clodhopper need some time out in the naughty chair to discuss proper behavior...WELL, what are ya waitin for.....get goin and have a nice chat boys....:p

Jester and I have agreed to have a spiritual beer drinking competition when we meet in the queue for the Pearly Gates.

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:11 pm

Can Pheasy and I help now.....how about some ice cold beer in the afterlife....nice and cold.....

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:15 pm

Kathy Ellen;819754 wrote: Can Pheasy and I help now.....how about some ice cold beer in the afterlife....nice and cold.....

Oooooh yes ... I can do ice help ..... does it involve pain ... shame ... ok I can help

:D:D

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:17 pm

rjwould;819746 wrote: I was being light hearted as well, sometimes I just suck at it.

Hey you, my lovely friend:-4

I'm just coddin ya...wasn't havin a go...just messin and muckin about....(hey, do I sound like a Brit now? :wah:)

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:18 pm

Kathy Ellen;819754 wrote: Can Pheasy and I help now.....how about some ice cold beer in the afterlife....nice and cold.....

Well, It's a kind thought, but COLD beers would be more appreciated in the HOT place. Given where Jester and I plan to meet, I was thinking more in terms of warm spiritual Real Ale.

GluglugluglugluglugAAAAAH!