Hmm. We'll have to disagree about Poland (and indeed Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania, which are hard to see as threats to the USSR).
So it's ok in your book to kill as many of your own people as you like? Crumbs. Don't think I'll be voting for you in the upcoming Greater London Authority Elections!;)
So Tibet eh?
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
So Tibet eh?
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
So Tibet eh?
Which words in my post do you see as inaccurate? "Every other country the Soviets ever set foot in was in order to expel the Axis occupation".
Actually I missed Finland, they did invade Finland. On the other hand Finland was to all intents and purposes a part of the Axis.
Actually I missed Finland, they did invade Finland. On the other hand Finland was to all intents and purposes a part of the Axis.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
So Tibet eh?
I think the secret protocols of the Nazi/Soviet pact were a naked land grab. I've always been very sorry we were simply not strong enough at the end of WW2 to obtain the freedom of the Poles. I think the seizure of the Baltic States (combined population approx ten people) was unnecessary for the security of the USSR and a naked land grab.
That's a start, anyway.
That's a start, anyway.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
So Tibet eh?
And I don't admit the Chinese claim to Tibet, either, any more than I would support a claim by the British to the USA on the grounds that we once owned the place! (Tempting though it is. They are all royalists under the skin. :p{Clodhpper rushes to hide behind the sofa before the Damned Colonial Rebels start throwing things at him}).
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
So Tibet eh?
And yes it's ok in my book to kill as many of your own people as you like. So long as there's no external threat, a person or party doing that is far more likely to face rebellion than if there's an external threat. Either way, rebellion or no rebellion, the cost of external intervention is far higher than the internal repression could amount to.
I can think of two instances in the 20th century where that's not true and that's Rwanda and Cambodia and in neither case was there an international effort to prevent the slaughter until it was long finished. Every other major slaughter was international or was ended by internal state reform. The USSR reformed in the early fifties, China reformed in the 70s. Both were extreme cases with at least arguable justification.
I can think of two instances in the 20th century where that's not true and that's Rwanda and Cambodia and in neither case was there an international effort to prevent the slaughter until it was long finished. Every other major slaughter was international or was ended by internal state reform. The USSR reformed in the early fifties, China reformed in the 70s. Both were extreme cases with at least arguable justification.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
So Tibet eh?
Argh! Must have killed my own reply to spot since it isn't here.
Said that a combination of secret police, informers, kids indoctrinated at school so they'll denounce their own parents, gulags, and a sufficiently effective bureaucracy make rebellion impossible - the Nazis and the Soviets both managed it.
The failure to intervene in Rwanda and Cambodia and the successful intervention in Sierra Leone were the reasons I supported the intervention in Iraq...
Said that a combination of secret police, informers, kids indoctrinated at school so they'll denounce their own parents, gulags, and a sufficiently effective bureaucracy make rebellion impossible - the Nazis and the Soviets both managed it.
The failure to intervene in Rwanda and Cambodia and the successful intervention in Sierra Leone were the reasons I supported the intervention in Iraq...
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
So Tibet eh?
Scrat;817530 wrote: You know Russian history from the western point of view, not from the Russian point of view, those who were there that fought, survived unbelievable hardship and have an entirely different way of looking at it.
Keep in mind something about the history books you read, they were written in the west. It's not hard. Not many would consider him a hero even in Russia back then but he did what was necessary to build one of the greatest nations in human history, that was no easy task.There was a reason for the canonization of Stalins and his image, STABILITY. Keep in mind, the war for Russia was not finished until 1949 and due to western agression and hostility, it never really ended. They couldn't afford another person to be there that wanted to change things or was not in control.
The facts you have in what you read are shallow at best, meant to distort what really happened in favor of another view, another line of propaganda. You are smarter than that Galbally.
Of course I am looking at it from a western perspective, what else would you expect me to do? I am western and my ethical ideas are all western, which is why I don't like police states or dictatorships ruled by meglomaniacs. In any case, the facts I am relating are facts, without the Russian political gloss you are putting on them, Stalin was denounced at the 1957 party conference by his immediate successor, Zhukov was responsible for the campaigns in 1943-45 that won the war, he was betrayed afterwards by his political leader, and rehabilitated after his death by Soviet historians, who recognized that this man (who truly was a war hero) was given a raw deal. You saw that stability forced Stalin's hand, rubbish, it was meglomania same as it always was. Yes Russia is a great country and a great people, unfortunatly its political leaders usually leave a lot to be desired. The fact of history is that the Russian revolution happened, some good things came out of it, and a lot of bad things came out of it, but by whatever standard he is judged, Stalin was a monster, in his public and private life, and is one of the most sinister figures of the 20th century, and certainly no hero.
Keep in mind something about the history books you read, they were written in the west. It's not hard. Not many would consider him a hero even in Russia back then but he did what was necessary to build one of the greatest nations in human history, that was no easy task.There was a reason for the canonization of Stalins and his image, STABILITY. Keep in mind, the war for Russia was not finished until 1949 and due to western agression and hostility, it never really ended. They couldn't afford another person to be there that wanted to change things or was not in control.
The facts you have in what you read are shallow at best, meant to distort what really happened in favor of another view, another line of propaganda. You are smarter than that Galbally.
Of course I am looking at it from a western perspective, what else would you expect me to do? I am western and my ethical ideas are all western, which is why I don't like police states or dictatorships ruled by meglomaniacs. In any case, the facts I am relating are facts, without the Russian political gloss you are putting on them, Stalin was denounced at the 1957 party conference by his immediate successor, Zhukov was responsible for the campaigns in 1943-45 that won the war, he was betrayed afterwards by his political leader, and rehabilitated after his death by Soviet historians, who recognized that this man (who truly was a war hero) was given a raw deal. You saw that stability forced Stalin's hand, rubbish, it was meglomania same as it always was. Yes Russia is a great country and a great people, unfortunatly its political leaders usually leave a lot to be desired. The fact of history is that the Russian revolution happened, some good things came out of it, and a lot of bad things came out of it, but by whatever standard he is judged, Stalin was a monster, in his public and private life, and is one of the most sinister figures of the 20th century, and certainly no hero.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Tibet eh?
And yes it's ok in my book to kill as many of your own people as you like.
Really? How chilling.
Really? How chilling.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Tibet eh?
Anyway, to get back to the main topic of the thread about Tibet and China, there was a very interesting piece on the TV last night about how ordinary migrant workers in China are becomming more militant in their demand for more rights as workers. Now of course being a communist workers paradise, strikes and independent trade unions are naturally banned in China, as the State cares for its workers so much that they don't need to organize to assert their rights.
However, some of these ungrateful workers are actually striking anyway and demanding outrageous things like being given sick pay, redundancy money, accident insurance, and the right to collective bargaining. Of course being a socialist country, the factory bosses are using the police and army to break up these outrageous demonstrations of organized labour.
But it seems that the government might be going soft and actually bringing in legislation that empowers the workers to seek better treatment, despite the obvious need to crack down on these dangerous dissidents (or citizens as we might call them) in the interests of "stability" and socialist "order". Interesting times indeed.
However, some of these ungrateful workers are actually striking anyway and demanding outrageous things like being given sick pay, redundancy money, accident insurance, and the right to collective bargaining. Of course being a socialist country, the factory bosses are using the police and army to break up these outrageous demonstrations of organized labour.
But it seems that the government might be going soft and actually bringing in legislation that empowers the workers to seek better treatment, despite the obvious need to crack down on these dangerous dissidents (or citizens as we might call them) in the interests of "stability" and socialist "order". Interesting times indeed.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Tibet eh?
Galbally;817655 wrote: And yes it's ok in my book to kill as many of your own people as you like.
Really? How chilling.
You know perfectly well you cut that out of context. It's ok in my book to kill as many of your own people as you like because the consequence of that is fewer overall deaths, with a shorter period of upheaval before internal change, than external intervention would cause.
As for your subsequent "interesting times" post, you do seem to be wanting it both ways. I agree it's interesting times.
Really? How chilling.
You know perfectly well you cut that out of context. It's ok in my book to kill as many of your own people as you like because the consequence of that is fewer overall deaths, with a shorter period of upheaval before internal change, than external intervention would cause.
As for your subsequent "interesting times" post, you do seem to be wanting it both ways. I agree it's interesting times.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Tibet eh?
spot;817698 wrote: You know perfectly well you cut that out of context. It's ok in my book to kill as many of your own people as you like because the consequence of that is fewer overall deaths, with a shorter period of upheaval before internal change, than external intervention would cause.
As for your subsequent "interesting times" post, you do seem to be wanting it both ways. I agree it's interesting times.
Yes, you did temper it with some qualifications to be fair to you, but still its a pretty extraordinary thing to say, but I know you with your logicistian type mind, you just take things to their logical conclusion in your arguments, I am more of a common-sense type person, maybe thats a lack of conviction or a healthy sense of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
As for the other post of course I want it both ways, I believe in a mixed economy, I'm not an ideological captialist, I'm utilitarian, whatever works, works. I think that it would be brilliant if the workers in China get better employment rights, in fact I think it would be better if British workers got better employment rights, as for Americans, they wouldn't understand this argument, as they don't get the idea of government protecting citizens from the depredation of big capital, but I am a European like yourself.
As for your subsequent "interesting times" post, you do seem to be wanting it both ways. I agree it's interesting times.
Yes, you did temper it with some qualifications to be fair to you, but still its a pretty extraordinary thing to say, but I know you with your logicistian type mind, you just take things to their logical conclusion in your arguments, I am more of a common-sense type person, maybe thats a lack of conviction or a healthy sense of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
As for the other post of course I want it both ways, I believe in a mixed economy, I'm not an ideological captialist, I'm utilitarian, whatever works, works. I think that it would be brilliant if the workers in China get better employment rights, in fact I think it would be better if British workers got better employment rights, as for Americans, they wouldn't understand this argument, as they don't get the idea of government protecting citizens from the depredation of big capital, but I am a European like yourself.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Tibet eh?
Scrat;818595 wrote: Learn to read cyrillic and travel around Russia. If you take their history into account, their enviornment the obstacles they've faced and what they have accomplished and toss it into a bag you will probably see things differently.
There is a difference between Russophobes and Russophiles. Russophiles in the majority of cases have been to Russia for long periods of time, it kind of grows on you, they tend to resent the lies and sophistry they see in the west. Russophobes on the other hand usually have never even been to the country themselves for even a short period of time and steadfastly refuse to even consider it. They prefer to wallow in their warm and comforting ignorance and dogma.
Remember this, Stalin was the man for the job at the time. He kept a country that was all but wrecked in order and brought it kicking and screaming into the modern age and made a country capable of standing up to the west.
You can call him a megalomaniac but keep this in mind, it's just your opinion.
All of the same can be said for China now. It's better than it has ever been because of the people who run it, screw the Dali Lama, he'd be no better when he got to power. Maybe worse, we know how tinpot dictators work now don't we?
Sure I agree, the best way to know any country is to learn its language and travel around. I did that in Germany and it made me understand and like Germans more that I had previously, but I still don't think Hitler was a great fellow or that German militarism was a very sensible idea in the long run. Also my time in France with French people has made me quite Francophile, but I still think Robspierre was a tosser, and Napoleon was not the nicest chap who ever lived either. At the moment I am trying to deal with Italian and Spanish as well because I am working with some of those peolpem who are all lovely I have to add. I'm a Western European Scrat, thats my worldview, and I am comfortable with it, its doesn't mean that I am not interested in other places or people, but I realize that I have a perspective.
And yes, I do admire Russia and its people, they are a European people as are my people, the Irish, and White Russia is part of Europe, with magnificent achievements in many areas, as well as some despicable lows, so your not going to put the Russophobe tab on me just because I have a view independent of yours (unless of course you are a Russian Diplomat and speak for Russia). Being critical of events in a country's past or present doesn't mean you have any particular hatred for that country.
For instance I think George Bush is a moron, his administration are nuts, the American philosophy on healthcare, guns, the worship of capital for its own sake, and the creation of a permanent ruling oligarchy is all wrong, but it doesn't stop me admiring the great things about America that still remain. Just because I might criticize Israel doesn't make me antisemitic, and in the same way just because I think Stalin was god awful, self-serving despot doesn't mean I am anti-Russian, just anti-Stalinist.
As for your comments about China, well they kind of speak for themselves really.
There is a difference between Russophobes and Russophiles. Russophiles in the majority of cases have been to Russia for long periods of time, it kind of grows on you, they tend to resent the lies and sophistry they see in the west. Russophobes on the other hand usually have never even been to the country themselves for even a short period of time and steadfastly refuse to even consider it. They prefer to wallow in their warm and comforting ignorance and dogma.
Remember this, Stalin was the man for the job at the time. He kept a country that was all but wrecked in order and brought it kicking and screaming into the modern age and made a country capable of standing up to the west.
You can call him a megalomaniac but keep this in mind, it's just your opinion.
All of the same can be said for China now. It's better than it has ever been because of the people who run it, screw the Dali Lama, he'd be no better when he got to power. Maybe worse, we know how tinpot dictators work now don't we?
Sure I agree, the best way to know any country is to learn its language and travel around. I did that in Germany and it made me understand and like Germans more that I had previously, but I still don't think Hitler was a great fellow or that German militarism was a very sensible idea in the long run. Also my time in France with French people has made me quite Francophile, but I still think Robspierre was a tosser, and Napoleon was not the nicest chap who ever lived either. At the moment I am trying to deal with Italian and Spanish as well because I am working with some of those peolpem who are all lovely I have to add. I'm a Western European Scrat, thats my worldview, and I am comfortable with it, its doesn't mean that I am not interested in other places or people, but I realize that I have a perspective.
And yes, I do admire Russia and its people, they are a European people as are my people, the Irish, and White Russia is part of Europe, with magnificent achievements in many areas, as well as some despicable lows, so your not going to put the Russophobe tab on me just because I have a view independent of yours (unless of course you are a Russian Diplomat and speak for Russia). Being critical of events in a country's past or present doesn't mean you have any particular hatred for that country.
For instance I think George Bush is a moron, his administration are nuts, the American philosophy on healthcare, guns, the worship of capital for its own sake, and the creation of a permanent ruling oligarchy is all wrong, but it doesn't stop me admiring the great things about America that still remain. Just because I might criticize Israel doesn't make me antisemitic, and in the same way just because I think Stalin was god awful, self-serving despot doesn't mean I am anti-Russian, just anti-Stalinist.
As for your comments about China, well they kind of speak for themselves really.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Tibet eh?
Scrat;818813 wrote: Point made then, my thinking of you as a Russophobe is in fact, just my opinion.
As for Tibet I see it as very possible that the country can fall to chaos. We all know what sometimes happens when the people at the top change, civil war and strife ect. Really Galbally, if China were to leave Tibet would the lot of the average citizen of Tibet change? I doubt it. We would most likely be replacing one tyrant with another and the process may well be very costly in innocent lives.#
And of course you are perfectly entitled to your opinion.
About Tibet, I really don't know what the answer's are for Tibet, I just tend to think that the fairly harsh repression there is wrong, as is the displacement of the native Tibetan culture, and that in this case the end does not justify the means being used, I am not even sure if the objective is the correct one, you would disagree with me about that I am fairly sure.
Its hard to know from this side of the world what the real situation is in Tibet, but the fact that foreign journalists are excluded from the place is a bad sign, and also part of the deal of China being allowed to hold the olympics was an agreement that they would allow foreign journalists into the country and also take some of the points being made by Western governments about human rights a bit more seriously. They are not living up to that side of the bargain at all, and perhaps it was a little naive to expect them to in the first place, but its not as simple as just telling to stuff it, as thats not really very constructive.
As for Tibet I see it as very possible that the country can fall to chaos. We all know what sometimes happens when the people at the top change, civil war and strife ect. Really Galbally, if China were to leave Tibet would the lot of the average citizen of Tibet change? I doubt it. We would most likely be replacing one tyrant with another and the process may well be very costly in innocent lives.#
And of course you are perfectly entitled to your opinion.
About Tibet, I really don't know what the answer's are for Tibet, I just tend to think that the fairly harsh repression there is wrong, as is the displacement of the native Tibetan culture, and that in this case the end does not justify the means being used, I am not even sure if the objective is the correct one, you would disagree with me about that I am fairly sure.
Its hard to know from this side of the world what the real situation is in Tibet, but the fact that foreign journalists are excluded from the place is a bad sign, and also part of the deal of China being allowed to hold the olympics was an agreement that they would allow foreign journalists into the country and also take some of the points being made by Western governments about human rights a bit more seriously. They are not living up to that side of the bargain at all, and perhaps it was a little naive to expect them to in the first place, but its not as simple as just telling to stuff it, as thats not really very constructive.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Tibet eh?
Tibet and Wales are in very similar positions for practically identical reasons and the degree of unrest just about matches too. I'd think that fairly harsh repression in either country would be wrong too but there are street demonstrations in living memory in Wales which bear comparison with those in Tibet today. Winston Churchill as Home Secretary called out the troops and had the Riot Act read, people still talk about him as a monster in consequence. Dozens of Welsh demonstrators died.
The Welsh ended up with a regional assembly, recognition for the linguistic and cultural heritage, it took a hundred years and a lot of burned English holiday cottages to get the point across. As in Tibet it had nothing to do with actually wanting an independent Welsh foreign policy, and England's safe from having the Welsh hire out airbases to all and sundry.
The Welsh ended up with a regional assembly, recognition for the linguistic and cultural heritage, it took a hundred years and a lot of burned English holiday cottages to get the point across. As in Tibet it had nothing to do with actually wanting an independent Welsh foreign policy, and England's safe from having the Welsh hire out airbases to all and sundry.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Tibet eh?
spot;818903 wrote: Tibet and Wales are in very similar positions for practically identical reasons and the degree of unrest just about matches too. I'd think that fairly harsh repression in either country would be wrong too but there are street demonstrations in living memory in Wales which bear comparison with those in Tibet today. Winston Churchill as Home Secretary called out the troops and had the Riot Act read, people still talk about him as a monster in consequence. Dozens of Welsh demonstrators died.
The Welsh ended up with a regional assembly, recognition for the linguistic and cultural heritage, it took a hundred years and a lot of burned English holiday cottages to get the point across. As in Tibet it had nothing to do with actually wanting an independent Welsh foreign policy, and England's safe from having the Welsh hire out airbases to all and sundry.
Perhaps that's a useful analogy, being Irish I am all nationalistic in the political sense, as opposed to the Welsh who tend to put their nationalistic tendencies into simply preserving a unique cultural identity. I guess that the challenge that faced wales in the 19th and 20th century to not simply become completely subsumed into England forever and swamped by the ENglish and their ways, is similar to that which afflicts the Tibetans now, with that new emerging superpower China.
You know in the late 19th century, many commentators predicted that if the trends in Ireland continued, by the end of the 20th century there would have been no Irish people left in Ireland, and its culture would have been completely exterminated. Of course that didn't happen, though it took a lot of troubles to get where we are now, but certainly Ireland had to work for a long time to recover its sense of itself after centuries of domination, happily it seems that the country has truly emerged from that period, (not without many scars though it has to be said).
The Welsh ended up with a regional assembly, recognition for the linguistic and cultural heritage, it took a hundred years and a lot of burned English holiday cottages to get the point across. As in Tibet it had nothing to do with actually wanting an independent Welsh foreign policy, and England's safe from having the Welsh hire out airbases to all and sundry.
Perhaps that's a useful analogy, being Irish I am all nationalistic in the political sense, as opposed to the Welsh who tend to put their nationalistic tendencies into simply preserving a unique cultural identity. I guess that the challenge that faced wales in the 19th and 20th century to not simply become completely subsumed into England forever and swamped by the ENglish and their ways, is similar to that which afflicts the Tibetans now, with that new emerging superpower China.
You know in the late 19th century, many commentators predicted that if the trends in Ireland continued, by the end of the 20th century there would have been no Irish people left in Ireland, and its culture would have been completely exterminated. Of course that didn't happen, though it took a lot of troubles to get where we are now, but certainly Ireland had to work for a long time to recover its sense of itself after centuries of domination, happily it seems that the country has truly emerged from that period, (not without many scars though it has to be said).
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
So Tibet eh?
A bit cautious about poking my English nose into this, but it's a question as to whether at that time (1066 - 1250ish) English, Welsh and Irish were all having the s**t kicked out of them by the Normans. There's no doubt though that Glendower's revolt was caused by sheer English arrogance at its worst.
Personally I favour the existence of a United Kingdom, but I know a number of English folk apparently very keen on Scottish and Welsh independence. How serious they really are about this I wouldn't like to say.
Last night I sat in an Irish pub in London, chatting to a Welshman who was up from the Valleys visiting his son in the best head trauma private hospital in the UK. Son was hit by a car and coming out of a coma, is in army and everything paid for by them. By incredible coincidence I have a Scots friend recovering from a coma, (hit by train) whom I visited yesterday (he said his first word since the accident - Yaay! :-6) and hope I was able to give this Welsh chap some moral support. Think I succeeded since by the end of the evening he seemed at least as much concerned by the lack of fizz in London-served cider! :wah::wah:
I would be very sorry to lose that sort of thing.
Personally I favour the existence of a United Kingdom, but I know a number of English folk apparently very keen on Scottish and Welsh independence. How serious they really are about this I wouldn't like to say.
Last night I sat in an Irish pub in London, chatting to a Welshman who was up from the Valleys visiting his son in the best head trauma private hospital in the UK. Son was hit by a car and coming out of a coma, is in army and everything paid for by them. By incredible coincidence I have a Scots friend recovering from a coma, (hit by train) whom I visited yesterday (he said his first word since the accident - Yaay! :-6) and hope I was able to give this Welsh chap some moral support. Think I succeeded since by the end of the evening he seemed at least as much concerned by the lack of fizz in London-served cider! :wah::wah:
I would be very sorry to lose that sort of thing.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
So Tibet eh?
Clodhopper;819062 wrote: A bit cautious about poking my English nose into this, but it's a question as to whether at that time (1066 - 1250ish) English, Welsh and Irish were all having the s**t kicked out of them by the Normans. There's no doubt though that Glendower's revolt was caused by sheer English arrogance at its worst.
Personally I favour the existence of a United Kingdom, but I know a number of English folk apparently very keen on Scottish and Welsh independence. How serious they really are about this I wouldn't like to say.
Last night I sat in an Irish pub in London, chatting to a Welshman who was up from the Valleys visiting his son in the best head trauma private hospital in the UK. Son was hit by a car and coming out of a coma, is in army and everything paid for by them. By incredible coincidence I have a Scots friend recovering from a coma, (hit by train) whom I visited yesterday (he said his first word since the accident - Yaay! :-6) and hope I was able to give this Welsh chap some moral support. Think I succeeded since by the end of the evening he seemed at least as much concerned by the lack of fizz in London-served cider! :wah::wah:
I would be very sorry to lose that sort of thing.
I guess from an Irish perspective, there was never really a hope of us being reconciled to being in the U.K. after the Famine, it was just too much, we came to close to anilhilation with no help to ever feel secure in that political setup.
I think the problem that the UK faces now is the way its set up, its not a federal state, its a unitary one, with 3 countries in it, and a bit of another one. It certainly worked for a long time, when England was at the height of its powers, but the changing world will make it more difficult to maintain that model, and now with the other parliaments the dynamic will be for seperation at some stage.
Its my guess that once that process is complete, the 3 nations of Britain, and the 2 on the island of Ireland (whether they unify or remain seperate) will then agree to certain links (within the EU) as it would be sensible to maintain good national relationships. I think Scotland will probably become independent in the relatively near future, Wales, not so probable in the short term, Northern Ireland is a bit of a wild card, but it won't be leaving the UK at any time in the near future, (unless the UK itself breaks up leaving Northern Ireland's position in it academic) that would be my best guess.
I think the major thing about Scotland becomming independent, is that it will seriously make the Westminster parliament and the people of England think harder about their relationship with the EU, probably a realization of a more pragmatic policy would be the long term result.
Personally I favour the existence of a United Kingdom, but I know a number of English folk apparently very keen on Scottish and Welsh independence. How serious they really are about this I wouldn't like to say.
Last night I sat in an Irish pub in London, chatting to a Welshman who was up from the Valleys visiting his son in the best head trauma private hospital in the UK. Son was hit by a car and coming out of a coma, is in army and everything paid for by them. By incredible coincidence I have a Scots friend recovering from a coma, (hit by train) whom I visited yesterday (he said his first word since the accident - Yaay! :-6) and hope I was able to give this Welsh chap some moral support. Think I succeeded since by the end of the evening he seemed at least as much concerned by the lack of fizz in London-served cider! :wah::wah:
I would be very sorry to lose that sort of thing.
I guess from an Irish perspective, there was never really a hope of us being reconciled to being in the U.K. after the Famine, it was just too much, we came to close to anilhilation with no help to ever feel secure in that political setup.
I think the problem that the UK faces now is the way its set up, its not a federal state, its a unitary one, with 3 countries in it, and a bit of another one. It certainly worked for a long time, when England was at the height of its powers, but the changing world will make it more difficult to maintain that model, and now with the other parliaments the dynamic will be for seperation at some stage.
Its my guess that once that process is complete, the 3 nations of Britain, and the 2 on the island of Ireland (whether they unify or remain seperate) will then agree to certain links (within the EU) as it would be sensible to maintain good national relationships. I think Scotland will probably become independent in the relatively near future, Wales, not so probable in the short term, Northern Ireland is a bit of a wild card, but it won't be leaving the UK at any time in the near future, (unless the UK itself breaks up leaving Northern Ireland's position in it academic) that would be my best guess.
I think the major thing about Scotland becomming independent, is that it will seriously make the Westminster parliament and the people of England think harder about their relationship with the EU, probably a realization of a more pragmatic policy would be the long term result.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Tibet eh?
I'd not see it as separation particularly. The Westminster Assembly will become more and more oriented toward legislating on English affairs which is fine. Maybe Wales and Northern Ireland will upgrade to she same status as England and Scotland and become countries in their own right instead of their current condition as a principality and a province. The EU will continue to shoulder more and more if the international aspects of sovereignty thank goodness. What's left will be regional and country-specific. The only final visible break would be removing Welsh and Scots representation from the lower House. I'd not really want to do that, it provides the only place where the interests of Great Britain can be aired.
I'm sure that within a generation we'll all have the option of an English (country-level) or a British (national level) or a European (State level) passport which will let us effectively vote with our feet while staying put. Why should be not get a choice in what the label on the inside cover says?
I'm sure that within a generation we'll all have the option of an English (country-level) or a British (national level) or a European (State level) passport which will let us effectively vote with our feet while staying put. Why should be not get a choice in what the label on the inside cover says?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
So Tibet eh?
I think you are expecting a far more sensible reaction from the English than you would get.
Hope I'm wrong, but if it happens and you are a Welsh or Scottish person living in England I'd stay very, very quiet indeed (I'm now paraphrasing the sorts of thing I'd expect to hear. Let me be quite clear I would not want this and would not say it myself) amid snarls about why were we providing the Welsh and Scots with jobs - they claimed they wanted independence, they've got it and they can f off back home and work there. Remember the "No Irish " signs in guest house windows in the 50's?
Hope I'm wrong, but if it happens and you are a Welsh or Scottish person living in England I'd stay very, very quiet indeed (I'm now paraphrasing the sorts of thing I'd expect to hear. Let me be quite clear I would not want this and would not say it myself) amid snarls about why were we providing the Welsh and Scots with jobs - they claimed they wanted independence, they've got it and they can f off back home and work there. Remember the "No Irish " signs in guest house windows in the 50's?
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
So Tibet eh?
Might I add that in my opinion "the fairly harsh repression there" is US-inspired propaganda and has nothing to do with reality. Yet another instance of drip-drip-drip xenophobia from Uncle Sam.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Tibet eh?
spot;819846 wrote: Might I add that in my opinion "the fairly harsh repression there" is US-inspired propaganda and has nothing to do with reality. Yet another instance of drip-drip-drip xenophobia from Uncle Sam.
You can say that if you want to, but that would involve all of the news services in the world, including the BBC, telling lies, as well as Chinese and Tibetan dissidents, Amnesty international, human rights watch, and the rest of it just for the benefit of the US government, and thats unlikely.
You can say that if you want to, but that would involve all of the news services in the world, including the BBC, telling lies, as well as Chinese and Tibetan dissidents, Amnesty international, human rights watch, and the rest of it just for the benefit of the US government, and thats unlikely.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Tibet eh?
But it wouldn't, Galbally. None of the reputable news sources use the words "the fairly harsh repression there", it's you that uses them. It's not a fair summary of the Amnesty International reports at all. The simple way to be sure is for us to quote representative clips from them and see how near "the fairly harsh repression there" we can get. I claim that's a poor description.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
So Tibet eh?
Scrat;819834 wrote: I do agree with you on all of this except for the justification part. Why? What is the alternative.
If China were to pull out of Tibet it would leave a vacuum, people with a lust for power would go at one anothers throats, it would more than likely be a civil war type thing. More than likely the most ruthless faction would win and do you think they would be any better than China is now? We've all seen it before.
As for the means being used I have no doubt that the regular people are staying out of the fight, it's the radicals that are getting thumped and I have no doubt that they have their set of plans all hunky dory if China should ever decide to leave.
If it ain't broke don't fix it, China is a changing/evolving society don't mess with her.
Chuckle. Given the comparison between Wales/Tibet and England/China earlier on this thread, do you think I could use your quotation as an argument for why Wales should not have independance?:sneaky:
Now why do I feel this urge to hide behaind the sofa...
If China were to pull out of Tibet it would leave a vacuum, people with a lust for power would go at one anothers throats, it would more than likely be a civil war type thing. More than likely the most ruthless faction would win and do you think they would be any better than China is now? We've all seen it before.
As for the means being used I have no doubt that the regular people are staying out of the fight, it's the radicals that are getting thumped and I have no doubt that they have their set of plans all hunky dory if China should ever decide to leave.
If it ain't broke don't fix it, China is a changing/evolving society don't mess with her.
Chuckle. Given the comparison between Wales/Tibet and England/China earlier on this thread, do you think I could use your quotation as an argument for why Wales should not have independance?:sneaky:
Now why do I feel this urge to hide behaind the sofa...
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
So Tibet eh?
Independence has no real meaning when two countries are in the EU together.
Classical independence meant that you had control of your own foreign policy and chose who crossed your border. Nothing else really mattered except for that. Wales and England are never going to be in a position where they can say that's true of their relationship and the last time it was true was, as Galbally said, when the Normans forced it on them.
Classical independence meant that you had control of your own foreign policy and chose who crossed your border. Nothing else really mattered except for that. Wales and England are never going to be in a position where they can say that's true of their relationship and the last time it was true was, as Galbally said, when the Normans forced it on them.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
So Tibet eh?
Only way I see England joining the EU while we have the Murdoch Press peddling the the wazened little winker's political agenda is by the government ramming it through without a referendum and until that point we do have at least some direct control over foreign policy.
If we are doing that, I'd like to see the creating of a Federated States of Europe with a Royal (have to arrange Anglo Spanish marriage!) Head of State, elected Lower House and part elected part appointed Upper House.
I can dream...
If we are doing that, I'd like to see the creating of a Federated States of Europe with a Royal (have to arrange Anglo Spanish marriage!) Head of State, elected Lower House and part elected part appointed Upper House.
I can dream...
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
So Tibet eh?
We did, actually, have a referendum which said yes to membership. You can't have forgotten that. We don't repeat these things every decade just to check, it's a proper yes or no electoral commitment rather like a marriage vow.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
So Tibet eh?
re referendum - no, I hadn't forgotten, but it's bit hard to commit the whole country and everyone in it on a referendum result that only reflects the views of the over 50s! Much as I'd like to in this case.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
So Tibet eh?
That was the deal though. We'd not done referenda before that one, it set the rules.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Tibet eh?
I agree my niece may be playing for the US Women National Soccer team in this Olympics and it will be a shame if protest are a factor. Heck I may be going to China if she makes the Final team we know tonight if she is going to the Olympic qualifying for women in Mexico. She has dedicated so much of her life to this once in a life time opportunity of playing in the Olympics.
[QUOTE]Tibet I'm sick to death of it . I just knew the olympics would be another type of world stage to stage a protest. I'm sick to death of people around the world doing this. The Olympics should be the only place in the world where people should gather to NOT bite each others heads off!!! [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Tibet I'm sick to death of it . I just knew the olympics would be another type of world stage to stage a protest. I'm sick to death of people around the world doing this. The Olympics should be the only place in the world where people should gather to NOT bite each others heads off!!! [/QUOTE]
ALOHA!!
MOTTO TO LIVE BY:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
WOO HOO!!, what a ride!!!"
MOTTO TO LIVE BY:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
WOO HOO!!, what a ride!!!"
So Tibet eh?
Scrat;820709 wrote: Here's a video with some history and if you look into it it is actually quite accurate and says what undoubtedly the vast majority of Chinese people think. I agree with it.
Yes, some of the points made in the thing are valid indeed, but it still has the whiff of "Trimuph of the Will" about it, it kinda gives me the creeps to be honest.
Yes, some of the points made in the thing are valid indeed, but it still has the whiff of "Trimuph of the Will" about it, it kinda gives me the creeps to be honest.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
So Tibet eh?
Oh well, it's nice to know we are justified in using violence to stop Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland seceding from the UK if they want to. How ironic that China has "owned" Tibet for as long as England and Wales have been one state!
Suppose we'd better start getting ready to invade Eire and large parts of Western France as well. Not to mention the entire Commonwealth and the USA!
Suppose we'd better start getting ready to invade Eire and large parts of Western France as well. Not to mention the entire Commonwealth and the USA!
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
So Tibet eh?
fuzzy butt;821078 wrote:
I agree with Galbally it's a bit propaganderish......creepy is probably a better discription though
It's just shoddy thinking. In essence it says that China is justified in behaving badly because other countries have done. Take that logic any distance and we can all behave as badly as we like because (insert evil bogeyman of choice here) behaved badly.
I agree with Galbally it's a bit propaganderish......creepy is probably a better discription though
It's just shoddy thinking. In essence it says that China is justified in behaving badly because other countries have done. Take that logic any distance and we can all behave as badly as we like because (insert evil bogeyman of choice here) behaved badly.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
So Tibet eh?
I'm not sure that accurately reflects my position in this thread. I think that's better expressed as China's done little to apologize for. There's unrest on the street drummed up by an anti-Chinese faction somewhere on the planet, they dealt with it calmly and without a massacre, who could do better? They're there by right, they have every reason to continue to be there and they're lawfully keeping the peace.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Tibet eh?
spot;821583 wrote: I'm not sure that accurately reflects my position in this thread. I think that's better expressed as China's done little to apologize for. There's unrest on the street drummed up by an anti-Chinese faction somewhere on the planet, they dealt with it calmly and without a massacre, who could do better? They're there by right, they have every reason to continue to be there and they're lawfully keeping the peace.
Unlike Tianemen Square in 1989 where unfortunatly the need for a just "socialist order" did require a massacre of thousands of completely peaceful unarmed protesters of course, those pesky anti-Chinese Chinese students eh? What a bunch of jokers. But of course there never was a massacre or a democracy movement as that was made up by the imperialist running dogs at the BBC in that city of Vipers London.
I say in this case you will have to wait until after the olympics is over before you really see the crackdown proper. You can be assured its going to happen. I say sometime this coming october.
Unlike Tianemen Square in 1989 where unfortunatly the need for a just "socialist order" did require a massacre of thousands of completely peaceful unarmed protesters of course, those pesky anti-Chinese Chinese students eh? What a bunch of jokers. But of course there never was a massacre or a democracy movement as that was made up by the imperialist running dogs at the BBC in that city of Vipers London.
I say in this case you will have to wait until after the olympics is over before you really see the crackdown proper. You can be assured its going to happen. I say sometime this coming october.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Tibet eh?
1989, like 1848 before it, was the year of revolutions. It was also a generation ago. You're dredging into history at this point.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
So Tibet eh?
Spot: I was referring to the video, not your position! I wouldn't call you a shoddy thinker, though I disagree with you fairly extensively on this issue.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
So Tibet eh?
You get yourself some historical perspective, young Clodhopper, and then come back and tell us oldies all about it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Tibet eh?
spot;821989 wrote: 1989, like 1848 before it, was the year of revolutions. It was also a generation ago. You're dredging into history at this point.
Yes, and counter revolutions.
Yes, and counter revolutions.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Tibet eh?
spot;821989 wrote: 1989, like 1848 before it, was the year of revolutions. It was also a generation ago. You're dredging into history at this point.
Yes, 1989 was the year of revolutions, and also some counter revolutions. Of course the difference is that the people who did what they did in China in 1989 are still in power now, more or less the same people. Also its easy to be selective about events and dismiss things you might find disagreeable, but it doesn't alter the fact that these things happened less than 20 years ago. Lets not completely forget recent history.
Yes, 1989 was the year of revolutions, and also some counter revolutions. Of course the difference is that the people who did what they did in China in 1989 are still in power now, more or less the same people. Also its easy to be selective about events and dismiss things you might find disagreeable, but it doesn't alter the fact that these things happened less than 20 years ago. Lets not completely forget recent history.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Tibet eh?
Galbally;822306 wrote: Lets not completely forget recent history.
No, I stand by it being a generation ago. China then and China now are astonishingly different places.
No, I stand by it being a generation ago. China then and China now are astonishingly different places.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.