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spot;709673 wrote: Wiseguy, can you at least recognise that you're not producing equivalent figures? That article explicitly states that the majority of those they include in their total "share overcrowded accommodation with friends or family". We need a parallel definition of homelessness before we can find a comparison.
I'm just pointing out that it isn't all sunny in the UK. We all have our problems. The US problems will outweigh the UK because of the higher number of people and space. Some here prefer what we used to nostalgically refer to as the HOBO life. They want no roots and would rather fend for themselves right up until they need warmth from the winter, which in most cases is available at least in my area. I understand that places like New York city have a less likelihood of accommodation but that is because of the sheer number that congregate there.



Now, about your homeless. Are they housed and fed completely free of charge without any responsibilities what so ever? If so I am sure many of our homeless would gladly immigrate to the UK for these services.

YZGI;709683 wrote: Now, about your homeless. Are they housed and fed completely free of charge without any responsibilities what so ever?I guarantee that every indigent person in the UK has provision of food and a bed for the night at no cost and no follow-up debt if they apply for one, yes.

spot;709689 wrote: I guarantee that every indigent person in the UK has provision of food and a bed for the night at no cost and no follow-up debt if they apply for one, yes.
For the entirety of their life? Also, if the shelter can house 300 and 500 apply what happens?

spot;709689 wrote: I guarantee that every indigent person in the UK has provision of food and a bed for the night at no cost and no follow-up debt if they apply for one, yes.
I fail to see how you can guarantee this.



New Labour established a Rough Sleepers Unit (RSU), which claims to have removed over two thirds of those sleeping on the streets of the UK. Even if this figure is accepted—and there is evidence to suggest it is open to question—as the Crisis report shows, the result has only moved the problem out of sight, off the streets and into the hidden world of hostels and other temporary accommodation. Some charities have disputed the RSU figures, citing examples where the homeless are moved off the streets for one night only, which just happens to be the night on which the official count is taking place.

sunny104;709678 wrote: it's so much easier to have deep conversations in person!



do you think that perhaps it just isn't possible to help some people? How much do you think the government should do for some of these people? The programs are there to provide low cost or free services: housing, food, transportation, health care, etc.

there are plenty of people who work their asses off everyday to keep a roof over their head and food on the table without "help" from anyone.

What do you think is the main contributing factor to becoming homeless?


I think my main emphasis is that the programs don't work as often as they ought. What does it cost to afford a minimum level of housing? A family income of $16 an hour? I can see why some people drop short of that. Fear of not having a roof over your head definitely pushes some people to keep working long hours but it all adds stress.

Main factors... physical and mental illness I'd expect to be high on the list. Hard-drug substance abuse must have an effect though I'd think it would be small as a cause - perhaps more people get into hard-drug substance abuse as a result of homelessness than become homeless because they're abusing. People coming out of prison often have nothing and nobody to fall back on. People fall behind on rent and get evicted. People have very little by way of savings and become unemployed for even a short while.

If you compare these two wiki articles you'll get a sense of the difference between the two countries. They're not perfect but the sheer tone if nothing else shows order on the one hand and crisis on the other. They're at Homelessness in the United Kingdom and Homelessness in the United States. They do have good definitions though.

YZGI;709695 wrote: I fail to see how you can guarantee this.It's the law. It happens in practice. I do have practical experience in all this.

YZGI;709693 wrote: For the entirety of their life? Also, if the shelter can house 300 and 500 apply what happens?


Yes, and the local authority puts them in local private overnight accommodation.

YZGI;709695 wrote: New Labour established a Rough Sleepers Unit (RSU), which claims to have removed overtwo thirds of those sleeping on the streets of the UK. Even if this figure is accepted—and there is evidence to suggest it is open to question—as the Crisis report shows, the result has only moved the problem out of sight, off the streets and into the hidden world of hostels and other temporary accommodation.And if you compare that to the US experience, are you saying they're comparable? I'd have thought that "moving the problem out of sight, off the streets and into the hidden world of hostels and other temporary accommodation"is firstly inevitable and secondly nirvana compared with what happens in your neck of the woods.

So what happens when so many people decide to live a life of no responsibilities that your government can't accommodate them all? Do they just keep raising taxes on the ones who do have jobs and are responsible?

spot;709712 wrote:

And if you compare that to the US experience, are you saying they're comparable? I'd have thought that "moving the problem out of sight, off the streets and into the hidden world of hostels and other temporary accommodation"is firstly inevitable and secondly nirvana compared with what happens in your neck of the woods.


what do you mean? we have shelters here for people who choose to use them.

here's a new one that's going to open soon in San Antonio. You can see near the bottom of the article what they are providing for people.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/politi ... d8fc3.html

YZGI;709722 wrote: So what happens when so many people decide to live a life of no responsibilities that your government can't accommodate them all? Do they just keep raising taxes on the ones who do have jobs and are responsible?
What you appear not to see is that few people want to be in the position you're describing, they avoid getting into it voluntarily and they get out of it more quickly and more easily with the help that's available than if there were no help available to them.

oh for Gawds sake spot you are winding people up yet again.:-5:-5

spot;709711 wrote:

What does it cost to afford a minimum level of housing? A family income of $16 an hour?.


minimum? I live in the country, I can rent a small mobile home for 200 a month. I can live with room mates and split the costs if I wanted to live in a bigger, nicer house. I can rent an apartment in town for as low as 400 a month, maybe even lower depending on the neighborhood. You do what you have to do. Too bad more people don't have that attitude.

minks;709737 wrote: oh for Gawds sake spot you are winding people up yet again.:-5:-5


some of us read books, watch movies...spot winds people up! It's his thing. :wah:

minks;709737 wrote: oh for Gawds sake spot you are winding people up yet again.:-5:-5
Give him a chance and Spot will tell you that in the UK the grass is greener, the clouds are fluffier, the sky is bluer, the rain drops are better formed, red is redder, etc. etc. Than is the US.:wah:

YZGI;709746 wrote: Give him a chance and Spot will tell you that in the UK the grass is greener, the clouds are fluffier, the sky is bluer, the rain drops are better formed, red is redder, etc. etc. Than is the US.:wah:


Oh YZ I have had the pleasure of meeting spot, I know what he is about ahahaha

minks;709750 wrote: Oh YZ I have had the pleasure of meeting spot, I know what he is about ahahaha
It's just a friendly discussion. I don't get to excited. Besides I now have him looking for links on how much fluffier the clouds are in the UK.:wah:

YZGI;709760 wrote: It's just a friendly discussion. I don't get to excited. Besides I now have him looking for links on how much fluffier the clouds are in the UK.:wah:


oh I know it too

SPOT we want links you link king you.

Bumper stickers (which I loved btw) to homelessness. How does that compute??

There are homeless people everywhere. Some countries have more opportunities (socialist mostly) than others. We actually do have many programs available, but the biggest problem I see in my immediate area is that those programs are so overwrought with those that don't actually "need" it, that the ones that do end up without. Therein, lies the problem. Of course, that's just my opinion, and many people think it makes me heartless, so.....

I'll convert Spot when he comes to visit me! :wah:

sunny104;709772 wrote: I'll convert Spot when he comes to visit me! :wah:
Take him on a run through a cow pasture naked. That ought to do it.:wah:

YZGI;709776 wrote: Take him on a run through a cow pasture naked. That ought to do it.:wah:


When is that exactly??? I wanna be there!....have calendar ready to be marked!

YZGI;709776 wrote: Take him on a run through a cow pasture naked. That ought to do it.:wah:


what about him? should he be naked too??

sunny104;709782 wrote: what about him? should he be naked too??


What is it about Americans that they want to chase naked welshmen through cow pastures? Don't you have enough cowboys nowadays:sneaky:



By the time a Marine pulled into a little town, every hotel room was taken. "You've got to have a room somewhere," he pleaded. "Or just a bed, I don't care where."

"Well, I do have a double room with one occupant a Navy guy," admitted the manager, "and he might be glad to split the cost. But to tell you the truth, he snores so loudly that people in adjoining rooms have complained in the past. I'm not sure it would be worth it to you."

"No problem," the tired Marine assured him. "I'll take it." The next morning the Marine came down to breakfast bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.

"How'd you sleep?" asked the manager. "Never better," replied the Marine. The manager was impressed. "No problem with the other guy snoring, then?"

"Nope, I shut him up in no time," said the Marine. "How did you manage that?" asked the manager.

"He was already in bed, snoring away, when I came in the room," the Marine explained. "I went over, gave him a kiss on the cheek, said, 'Goodnight, beautiful,' and he sat up all night watching me."






Pierre, a brave French fighter pilot, takes his girlfriend, Marie, out for a pleasant little picnic by the River Seine. It's a beautiful day and love is in the air. Marie leans over to Pierre and says, "Pierre, kiss me!" Our hero grabs a bottle of Merlot and splashes it on Marie's lips.

"What are you doing, Pierre?" says the startled Marie. "I am Pierre, the fighter pilot! When I have red meat, I like to have red wine!" She smiles and they start kissing. When things began to heat up a little, Marie says, "Pierre, kiss me lower."

Our hero tears her blouse open, grabs a bottle of Chardonnay and starts pouring it all over her breasts. "Pierre! What are you doing?", asks the bewildered Marie. "I am Pierre the fighter pilot! When I have white meat, I like to have white wine!" They resume their passionate interlude and things really steam up.

Marie leans close to his ear and whispers, "Pierre, kiss me lower!" Our hero, grabs a bottle of Cognac and pours it in her lap. He then strikes a match and lights it on fire. Marie shrieks and dives into the river.

Standing waist deep, Marie throws her arms upwards and screams furiously, "PIERRE, what in the hell do you think you're doing?"

Our hero stands up, defiantly, and says, "I am Pierre the fighter pilot! When I go down, I go down in flames!"






Airman Jones was assigned to the induction center, where he advised new recruits about their government benefits, especially their GI insurance.

It wasn't long before Captain Smith noticed that Airman Jones had almost a 100% record for insurance sales, which had never happened before. Rather than ask about this, the Captain stood in the back of the room and listened to Jones's sales pitch.

Jones explained the basics of the GI Insurance to the new recruits, and then said, "If you have GI Insurance and go into battle and are killed, the government has to pay $200,000 to your beneficiaries. If you don't have GI insurance, and you go into battle and get killed, the government only has to pay a maximum of $6000."

"Now," he concluded, "which bunch do you think they are going to send into battle first?"

spot;709689 wrote: I guarantee that every indigent person in the UK has provision of food and a bed for the night at no cost and no follow-up debt if they apply for one, yes.


When I lost my house, I laid a deposit to rent a house, the letting agency went bust so my deposit was lost, I was made homeless with Jim and 2 children, I went to my council and they had no where to put us, we had to stay in a friends living room floor for 3 nights until they found us a bed and breakfast which was 20 miles from my childrens school. We had to stay in one room in a property which was sub standard (understatement!) for 6 months.

SuzyB;709800 wrote: When I lost my house, I laid a deposit to rent a house, the letting agency went bust so my deposit was lost, I was made homeless with Jim and 2 children, I went to my council and they had no where to put us, we had to stay in a friends living room floor for 3 nights until they found us a bed and breakfast which was 20 miles from my childrens school. We had to stay in one room in a property which was sub standard (understatement!) for 6 months.


spot;709689 wrote: I guarantee that every indigent person in the UK has provision of food and a bed for the night at no cost and no follow-up debt if they apply for one, yes.
Hmmmmm...

SuzyB;709800 wrote: When I lost my house, I laid a deposit to rent a house, the letting agency went bust so my deposit was lost, I was made homeless with Jim and 2 children, I went to my council and they had no where to put us, we had to stay in a friends living room floor for 3 nights until they found us a bed and breakfast which was 20 miles from my childrens school. We had to stay in one room in a property which was sub standard (understatement!) for 6 months.


Local Council departments are more than capable of screwing anyone who doesn't insist. The law's completely specific about the instant response that it demands. It's laid out in http://www.uk-legislation.hmso.gov.uk/a ... pb5-l1g190

"Interim duty to accommodate in case of apparent priority need: If the local housing authority have reason to believe that an applicant may be homeless, eligible for assistance and have a priority need, they shall secure that accommodation is available for his occupation pending a decision as to the duty (if any) owed to him under the following provisions of this Part [...] The following have a priority need for accommodation [...] (b) a person with whom dependent children reside or might reasonably be expected to reside; [...] 'eligible for assistance' means not excluded from such assistance by section 185 (persons from abroad not eligible for housing assistance) or section 186 (asylum seekers and their dependants). "

So it doesn't work then.

RedGlitter;709816 wrote: So it doesn't work then.


I'd have walked straight round the corner to the nearest solicitor and had a green-form court order on the council's desk before they shut for the day. Courts are very quick at responding to emergency applications like that. The system works very effectively if it's used.

spot;709809 wrote: Local Council departments are more than capable of screwing anyone who doesn't insist. The law's completely specific about the instant response that it demands. It's laid out in http://www.uk-legislation.hmso.gov.uk/a ... pb5-l1g190

"If the local housing authority have reason to believe that an applicant may be homeless, eligible for assistance and have a priority need, they shall secure that accommodation is available for his occupation pending a decision as to the duty (if any) owed to him under the following provisions of this Part [...] The following have a priority need for accommodation [...] (b) a person with whom dependent children reside or might reasonably be expected to reside; [...] 'eligible for assistance' means not excluded from such assistance by section 185 (persons from abroad not eligible for housing assistance) or section 186 (asylum seekers and their dependants). "


Trust me Spot I demanded, they knew and we knew that they had to find housing for us but due to all the B&B's being full and no hotel to accommodate us they had no where to send us.

Then when they sent us to that 5hit hole, they just said that we should be grateful that we had somewhere to stay. It was breaking every health and safety rule in the book, only when I totally flipped 6 months later and went to the council office with photo's and the threat that I was contacting the newspapers were we offered suitable accommodation.

I do believe that on the whole the system is good but you do have folks that are not being given adequate help.

SuzyB;709821 wrote: Trust me Spot I demanded, they knew and we knew that they had to find housing for us but due to all the B&B's being full and no hotel to accommodate us they had no where to send us.
That's what legal aid and court orders are for, Suzy. The council has absolutely no option in the matter if you push hard enough.

RedGlitter;709816 wrote: So it doesn't work then.


We was offered somewhere after 3 days, but I do know that they should of housed us somewhere as soon as we declared ourselves homeless, the problem is we don't have enough accomodation.



spot;709820 wrote: I'd have walked straight round the corner to the nearest solicitor and had a green-form court order on the council's desk before they shut for the day. Courts are very quick at responding to emergency applications like that. The system works very effectively if it's used.


The problem is many people like myself wouldn't have a clue about green-form court orders, people that find themselves homeless don't always know about the law, myself included, I have never heard of that form.

I am not complaining, just saying that sometimes we get things wrong to.

spot;709823 wrote: That's what legal aid and court orders are for, Suzy. The council has absolutely no option in the matter if you push hard enough.


I wish I'd of known that, i'd of loved to of seen the look on the miserable sod's face if I'd quoted all that :wah:

SuzyB;709829 wrote: I wish I'd of known that, i'd of loved to of seen the look on the miserable sod's face if I'd quoted all that :wah:


I bet that course of yours could cover areas like that if you want to take it there!

spot;709832 wrote: I bet that course of yours could cover areas like that if you want to take it there!


I am not there this week as Jenna had her tonsils out on Monday, but we will cover that I'm sure, Sociology is one of my favourite subjects, thinking of going on to do a degree in Sociology and Criminology.

SuzyB;709838 wrote: I am not there this week as Jenna had her tonsils out on Monday, but we will cover that I'm sure, Sociology is one of my favourite subjects, thinking of going on to do a degree in Sociology and Criminology.


Here, this is the missing piece of the jigsaw. Access to the courts with adequate professional assistance is a recognised requirement in England. People whose income and capital is considered insufficient are provided with automatic financing of their consultations and representation - there's a calculator at http://www.clsdirect.org.uk/legalhelp/c ... sp?lang=en which tells you whether legal aid is available or not. It's provided for civil access as well as criminal defence, there are odd corners to do with immigration and libel but for most applicants it's plain sailing. The money goes straight to the lawyer, no bills go to the clients.

It's to do with Magna Carta, of all things. It was written into English law in 1215 that "To no one will we sell, to no one deny or delay right or justice"and it still applies.

RedGlitter;709561 wrote: You are awfully condescending for one so ignorant of the US military.

Go fix your own country.


The one thing that would fix Australia is to let Australians fix it,Americans look after America,English look after England,Welsh look after Wales,Irish look after Ireland etc ,etc ,etc.



Oh!!!! another thing that would help Australians right now is that all the politicians get of the telly.The people know who they want to vote for already,they don't need their taxes wasted on political adds.:wah::sneaky:

dunkin;709893 wrote: The one thing that would fix Australia is to let Australians fix it,Americans look after America,English look after England,Welsh look after Wales,Irish look after Ireland etc ,etc ,etc.





Oh!!!! another thing that would help Australians right now is that all the politicians get of the telly.The people know who they want to vote for already,they don't need their taxes wasted on political adds.:wah::sneaky:
The most sensible post all evening.

spot;709689 wrote: I guarantee that every indigent person in the UK has provision of food and a bed for the night at no cost and no follow-up debt if they apply for one, yes.


Not always beds available, I tried and tried for one homeless girl I met whilst policing - she ended up sleeping in the Police Station reception area as there was no where else. That's the trouble with living in a semi-rural region, no shelters, no support.



YZGI;709693 wrote: For the entirety of their life? Also, if the shelter can house 300 and 500 apply what happens?


They get turned away to another shelter and if they're full they get turned away and so on.



YZGI;709722 wrote: So what happens when so many people decide to live a life of no responsibilities that your government can't accommodate them all? Do they just keep raising taxes on the ones who do have jobs and are responsible?


Yes



spot;709820 wrote: I'd have walked straight round the corner to the nearest solicitor and had a green-form court order on the council's desk before they shut for the day. Courts are very quick at responding to emergency applications like that. The system works very effectively if it's used.


Provided that people know the system and how to use it. Then the problem is lack of information and often the homeless are people who just don't know how to access this information or can be intimidated by people in official roles. JMO but a lot of people who find themselves homeless are affected by mental health issues - not the easiest of people to help. (Not being patronising or condescending here - I'm related to someone with mental health problems who was homeless for a long time)

I've tracked it down and I think the source is right.President Reagan took time to personally write to Lance Cpl. Joe Hickey on Sept. 23, 1983, according to Gen. Kelley.

Hickey was deploying to Beirut, Lebanon, and President Reagan wrote, "Sometimes people ask me: What is the hardest part of your job? There's never any doubt about my answer. The hardest thing I ever do is to send brave, young men like you into areas of danger."

Continuing the story, Gen. Kelley revealed how the famous two sentences President Reagan said about the Marines came about.

In his letter to Hickey, President Reagan wrote, "Some people work an entire lifetime and wonder if they ever made a difference to the world. But the Marines don't have that problem."

A month after writing Hickey, on Oct. 23, 1983, a Hezbolla terrorist, supported and encouraged by Iran, Syria and Labanese Druze, drove an 18-ton Mercedes truck, laden with the equivalent of 18,000 pounds of TNT, into the headquarters building of Marine Battalion Landing Team 1/8, killing 241 Marines.

Sloan, Tom. "Camp Pendleton Has Lead Role in Honoring President Reagan." Marine Corps News 16 February 2006 http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,88163,00.html