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capt_buzzard wrote: Speaking about here re splinter IRA groups come Real IRA, 32 county IRA, INLA are all part of of the same alter ego group Sinn Fein IRA, who in turn support other terrorists groups in Europe and elsewhere.
They are all socialists? They are all under the umbrella organization and the UDA are misguided saints?

flowers wrote: It all depends where you're standing and whose eyes you're looking through to view the world with. If governments can advocate violence then they can fully expect member of the publics to follow suit. It's like setting an example. It's almost trendy these days. No one places any importance on the human rights of others (equal rights afforded to EVERY citizen by the government), yet we somehow expect our own rights to be safeguarded! The more we do it, the more unstable this poor old world becomes and the more disaffected youth become. :guitarist
We can only hope that you will eventually realize that this is an imperfect world, we are imperfect people, and issues come in shades of gray, not black and white.

As an excercise to help you develop some real judgement, and logic skills, I suggest you imagine that after WWII, the US pulled all their military assets home, and stayed there, saving our soldier's lives, and our resources, and money for ourselves.

You seem quite good at gathering "facts", and data, I'm looking forward to seeing your vision of the world without the US risking "collateral damage", or inappropriate interference.

A good starting point would be the relationship between Europe and the Soviet Union. :yh_silent

flowers wrote: [QUOTE=Der Wulf]We can only hope that you will eventually realize that this is an imperfect world, we are imperfect people, and issues come in shades of gray, not black and white.



Dear fellow human Wulf, see I'm way PAST realising we live in an imperfect world! Doh! (You missed my irony - bless!) I have a vivid imagination as it is thanks, but, (from your gracious tone) do I take it that if my opinion differs from you, it must mean I have no 'real' judgement or 'logic'?!! Ha ha ha!!!!!!!



By the way, I love America as a country and a people (I just can't stand your administration!). I love love love every single country on this earth for so many different things. When I was a kid I used to embarrass my mum by being greedy when people would ask me where I was from. I'd just say 'everywhere!'



Wulf, I'm sorry if I rankled you. I mean no harm at all. I love debate but most of all to learn about people not rankle them. Please oh wise one, humor me, educate and enlighten me. You can start by addressing my request from the previous post, or explaining the irony in your

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showt ... #post36044

post. BTW: I'm old and grouchy, your passive aggresion, and using a "sunny" facade to hide your fear of commiting to a challangable position, gives me gas

kensloft wrote: They are all socialists? They are all under the umbrella organization and the UDA are misguided saints?The Ulster Defence Association + many other Loyalist groups are also terrorists.

flowers wrote: [QUOTE=Der Wulf]We can only hope that you will eventually realize that this is an imperfect world, we are imperfect people, and issues come in shades of gray, not black and white.

Dear fellow human Wulf, see I'm way PAST realising we live in an imperfect world! Doh! (You missed my irony - bless!) I have a vivid imagination as it is thanks, but, (from your gracious tone) do I take it that if my opinion differs from you, it must mean I have no 'real' judgement or 'logic'?!! Ha ha ha!!!!!!! :wah:

By the way, I love America as a country and a people (I just can't stand your administration!). I love love love every single country on this earth for so many different things. When I was a kid I used to embarrass my mum by being greedy when people would ask me where I was from. I'd just say 'everywhere!'

Wulf, I'm sorry if I rankled you. I mean no harm at all. I love debate but most of all to learn about people not rankle them. :-2
Rankle Der Wulfe? Surely you jest! Der Wulfe rankled? Ha Ha Ha ! Nevair. Not ze der wollfe. Only from everywhere? What about anywhere?

I am gathering concern.

Flowers please say something concrete and real so we do not have to gather our gas masks in case of Der emergency.

koan wrote: I am gathering concern.

Flowers please say something concrete and real so we do not have to gather our gas masks in case of Der emergency.
How do you know der dogs do der silent, deadly flatulence gas releases(farts)?

kensloft wrote: How do you know der dogs do der silent, deadly flatulence gas releases(farts)?
To tell you the truth...I think Der Wulf is just looking for an excuse to do what comes naturally.

It's ok DW don't hold it in...it's not good for you.

koan wrote: To tell you the truth...I think Der Wulf is just looking for an excuse to do what comes naturally.

It's ok DW don't hold it in...it's not good for you.
Think he's jealous of Watson at the pub? How long is it between releases? Maybe if we could get him outside he'll not be so Wulfe-ish. Aowooo!

To return this to topic...What if we took all the people on death row and subjected them to DW's gas after listening to flowers? Would that be cruel and inhuman? Maybe it would kill them...we don't know.

Seems like a good punishment to me. Maybe subjected for a week Could you put it out for that long? We might have to bottle it.

koan wrote: To return this to topic...What if we took all the people on death row and subjected them to DW's gas after listening to flowers? Would that be cruel and inhuman? Maybe it would kill them...we don't know.

Seems like a good punishment to me. Maybe subjected for a week Could you put it out for that long? We might have to bottle it.
Nice segue koan. I don't know. He'd have to have fewer of the prisoners or more of the Der Wulfes. But that would be deemed cruel and unusual punishment.

It must be tough telling it like it is. A tough row to hoe when it comes to showing people the naive approch doesn't hold water. Capital punishment always draws them out.

They're both right in their own ways but they both have to come to realize that there is a middle ground. Wulfe knows about it as he called it the grey area.Too much of a good thing is always cause for a concern. If people were sure of there being an afterlife then it would be a punishment but if it isn't they've let the culprits off scot free.

The manner of American justice creates a scenario of self-fulfilling prophecy. Murder requires retribution of kind. Muslim law expects trade or goods denoting extenuating circumstances. American law has extenuating circumstances. They both, if they don't have an agreement, put these people to death. Neither is the Christian ethic.

Ethics based upon Christianity?

Yes.

But not the Christian ethic.

I would be all for Capital Punishment if there weren't corruption in this world. Yes, DNA has come a long way, but there is still the chance that a persons DNA could be put at the scene of the crime and therefore, making a person look guilty.

If there were an independent (from the police) lab processing the information from a crime scene and an independent lab processing possible suspects DNA it might work. But then you would also need an independent lab to compare the two...expensive, but human life or death is at stake here.

You hear about the police having tunnel vision in regards to a suspect, and there have been cases of the police actually lying in order to convict someone. Here is Canada the Guy Paul Morin case comes to mind...a man who spent 15+ years convicted of molesting and killing a little girl, thanks to DNA he was exhonerated , but an inquiry proved that police, prosecutors and even witnesses (pressured by the prosecutors) lied in court in order to get a conviction. If they are willing to do this, then what is to stop the same from planting DNA, or using false results to convict someone.

There have been many convicts released because of DNA evidence, and that is a good thing, but like I said, DNA is not the end all and total proof of guilt when there are still forces out there who will stop at nothing to convict an innocent man/woman because of public pressure to make an arrest and gain a conviction so the community feels safer.

Please note that on the whole I believe that the police are good,hardworking and honest folks, but there is always the bad apple who spoils the bunch, leaving reasonable doubt for the death penalty.

My 2 cents anyway....

for the one out of a million case of corruption or incompetence, there are a million cases of diligent investigative work combined with the fail-safes of prosecutors offices. i am SO SICK of "planted" DNA...as in oj. what crap. yes, the police have nothing better to do. ("excuse me, may i have some of your DNA to keep in my evidence stash for future use?" some semen or blood would be nice, i'll just keep it in the fridge with my lunch") and DNA is usually combined with excellent circumstantial evidence that supports the overall case. prosecutors are subject to charges of misconduct and do not bring frivolous charges to the court. in fact is is often a grand jury that brings the indictment. the innocence project which utilizes DNA to release the truly innocent is a wonderful thing. but maybe they have an agenda and plant evidence? sounds silly doesn't it? but is it any less ludicrous? why is the DNA evidence used by the innocence project more reliable than that used by the state? have mistakes been made? of course. honest and not-so-honest mistakes. but nobody wants to send someone to death row just to close the books on a case. BTW...'exoneration' is a legal term, and does NOT mean a person is factually innocent. it means it is not proven 100% or that a deal was struck. period.

I can understand you being on the defensive, LC..afterall you are a police officer. The point is that innocent people have and will continue to be convicted of crimes they didn't commit, even if it's only one in a million, it's still one.

If nobody wants to send someone to death row to close the books on a case why are there so many people being found innocent while they are there? There have been 23 in FLA alone, since 1973 and 4 in the last 25 months! What about the rest of the States that have the DP?

http://www.truthinjustice.org/rudolph-holton.htm

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match with you, I'm just stating my opinion and my opinion is that there are innocent men and women being put to death because of "mistakes".

i am fully aware of injustices that have occurred throughout the history of the death penalty in America, my problem is with the accusation of police planting DNA. it's patently ridiculous and false..........further, many of the so-called innocents who have been released are NOT innocent, they just won appeals due to different appellate issues. because the law in it's majesty favors the criminals. personally i do not advocate the conviction of any innocent.

chicagolosina wrote: I can understand you being on the defensive, LC..afterall you are a police officer. The point is that innocent people have and will continue to be convicted of crimes they didn't commit, even if it's only one in a million, it's still one.



If nobody wants to send someone to death row to close the books on a case why are there so many people being found innocent while they are there? There have been 23 in FLA alone, since 1973 and 4 in the last 25 months! What about the rest of the States that have the DP?



http://www.truthinjustice.org/rudolph-holton.htm



I'm not trying to get into a pissing match with you, I'm just stating my opinion and my opinion is that there are innocent men and women being put to death because of "mistakes".
If this were a perfect world, we would not be having this conversation.

With few exceptions, those wrongly convicted, put themselves in jepardy by lifestyles, and behaviors they had chosen. My point is that to apportion blame, the "innocent" must share the blame for their perdicament. We must be very careful to not overvalue their worth to society.

Der Wulf wrote: If this were a perfect world, we would not be having this conversation.

With few exceptions, those wrongly convicted, put themselves in jepardy by lifestyles, and behaviors they had chosen. My point is that to apportion blame, the "innocent" must share the blame for their perdicament. We must be very careful to not overvalue their worth to society.
But isn't this creating a status quo class of people that are continually picked through by the enforcement aspect of society. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Good:bad. Evil:good. Right:wrong. Right life:wrong life. The whole concept of America is being destroyed because you are imprisoning your own people for life. Not being able to pay back to society ever for your trangressions is not far away from having slaves.

Double jeopardy is alive and well in America. Once you are released from prison you move into a lifestyle of lifestyles that are new punishments meant to keep the prisoner in check. He/she might be out of a cell in the physical sense but they aren't in the true sense of being free. If the British had have taught you like that (didn't they?) then you would have rebelled at the drop of a hat (didn't you?).

Being at the wrong place at the wrong time is not a way that will let you off the punishment of innocents. Fortunately, we are at the stage where science is giving us the means to make exact judgements in certain realms of the criminal ethic. As DNA and the other means of identifying people becomes more and more exact it will mean that less and less people will be "innocents" caught in the fishermen's nets.

Hoo boy. One briar patch coming up.

Der Wulf wrote: If this were a perfect world, we would not be having this conversation.

With few exceptions, those wrongly convicted, put themselves in jepardy by lifestyles, and behaviors they had chosen. My point is that to apportion blame, the "innocent" must share the blame for their perdicament. We must be very careful to not overvalue their worth to society.


Yea think of all the innocent poor minorities who put themselves in jeopardy by being a poor miniority....

chicagolosina wrote: Yea think of all the innocent poor minorities who put themselves in jeopardy by being a poor miniority....
Please note very carefully, it was you who assumed an equasion between being poor, and making bad decisions. Or like my logic challanged buddy Ken, who wants to believe that somehow "destiny" trumps choice.

I'm sure the race card will be the next excuse offered.



Not me, I firmly believe that human beings are better than the sum of their parts, if you aspire to be a better person, one of the first things you will do is avoid compromising situations.



If you are talking about parole Ken, remember that it is an opportunity to reduce your sentence in return for following a strict set of rules, another choice that you yourself make. :yh_shame :yh_sad

I thought I already posted this but forgot my connection zonked out along the way. Um...about two days ago I wanted to post this info from Death Penalty Information Center. It's lengthy but relevant.

In 1990, the United States General Accounting Office conducted a review of the best studies concerning race and the death penalty. They concluded that:

Race of victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving the death penalty, i.e., those who murdered whites were found to be more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks. This finding was remarkably consistent across data sets, states, data collection methods, and analytic techniques.[12]

Justice Harry Blackmun, who voted to uphold the death penalty both in 1972 when it was halted, and in 1976 when it was reinstated, recently concluded that racial discrimination continues to infect the practice of the death penalty: "Even under the most sophisticated death penalty statutes, race continues to play a major role in determining who shall live and who shall die."[13]

Racial disparities in the death penalty continue in various ways:

In Maryland, 87 percent of those on death row are African-Americans.[14] (The overwhelming majority of those sentenced to death come from a single suburban county.)

In Kentucky, 100 percent of those on death row are there for the murder of a white victim, despite the fact that there have been 1,000 African-Americans murdered in that state since 1976. [15]

In New Jersey, a recent death penalty study by the state's Supreme Court found "strong and consistent biases" against black defendants, taking into account cases with similar socio-economic backgrounds and similar aggravating and mitigating circumstances. [16]

Under the federal death penalty, which resumed in 1988 and was expanded in 1994, 78 percent of those slated for capital prosecution have been members of minorities. [17]

The Inequities of Location

Of the 330 executions which have taken place since 1976, 274 (or 83 percent) have occurred in the South. Texas, alone, has accounted for about a third of all executions in the country. And even within Texas, the practice is anything but uniform. Houston, whose population makes up about 16 percent of Texas's total population, is responsible for about a third of Texas's death row.[18] Similarly, over half of Pennsylvania's death row comes from one city, Philadelphia.[19] Philadelphia contains only 14 percent of the state's population but its prosecutor pursues the death penalty in virtually every available case.

The Inequities of Appointed Attorneys

After the decision by the prosecutor to pursue the death penalty, the wheel of chance spins again to select a lawyer for the defendant. About 90 percent of those facing capital charges cannot afford their own lawyer.[20] A few defendants will be assigned competent attorneys, skilled in handling a death penalty case. More typically, however, the defendant will be given a lawyer willing to accept a pittance of a fee, and who will be denied the necessary resources to conduct an adequate defense. The death penalty will be assessed not on those who have committed the worst crimes, but on those given the worst lawyers.

Defendants facing the death penalty have been given lawyers who were drunk during the trial, lawyers who fell asleep during the trial, lawyers who were absent during critical parts of the case, lawyers who had just graduated from law school, or lawyers who had never handled a criminal case. [21] Even experienced lawyers can do little when they are paid two or three thousand dollars for a case which requires a thousand hours of preparation and thousands of dollars for experts and investigators.

States are simply unwilling to spend the money it takes to eliminate this arbitrary factor in the death penalty. Capital punishment is already a tremendous financial drain on state and local government. Providing fairly compensated counsel, and the resources they need to conduct a full defense of their client, is not a priority for governments or taxpayers. An arbitrarily applied death penalty is the result. As Justice Harry Blackmun wrote shortly before leaving the Supreme Court: "My 24 years of overseeing the imposition of the death penalty from this Court have left me in grave doubt . . . whether the constitutional requirement of competent counsel for capital defendants is being fulfilled." [22]

Der Wulf wrote:



If you are talking about parole Ken, remember that it is an opportunity to reduce your sentence in return for following a strict set of rules, another choice that you yourself make. :yh_shame :yh_sad
Not asking about parole at all. There are many advantages that are removed from people that are sentenced and imprisoned. Education is one of the privileges that is revoked from people for the rest of their lives. They can never get loans to pursue education thereby leaving them in a state of ignorance. There are many different societal things that are removed from their being able to grow into productive citizens.

convicted felons are disenfranchised...perhaps they should have considered that before robbing the 7-11 and shooting the poor clerk making 5 bucks an hour. i am so sorry they no longer have the option to go to Harvard Law. it's so unfair.

What if you were the one who had to pay the cost of the imperfect system. For some unexplained reason, suddenly all the evidence of a murder pointed at you. Are you willing to pay the price and give up your life for the sake of punishing by death the ones who "deserve" it. What of your children? Your innocence never proven or given another chance to be proven.

Sounds unrealistic, how do you imagine it? But it has happened. It's just that it wasn't you.

To me, not to sound patriotic, this is like teenagers who think they will never die, never catch AIDS, never overdose....whatever. It just hasn't happened yet. Doesn't mean it couldn't.

lady cop wrote: convicted felons are disenfranchised...perhaps they should have considered that before robbing the 7-11 and shooting the poor clerk making 5 bucks an hour. i am so sorry they no longer have the option to go to Harvard Law. it's so unfair.
You aren't suggesting that felons would become lawyers are you?

Der Wulf wrote: Please note very carefully, it was you who assumed an equasion between being poor, and making bad decisions.


No, Sir.....it is you assuming that I assumed an equasion between being poor and making bad decisions..I thought my statement was clear and concise...and I'll make it again, this time I'll explain myself a little further.......

I said nothing about bad behavior..I simply stated that by being a poor miniortiy someone is automatically placed in jeopardy because they are just that....to expand on that, a poor person does not have the resources to properly excercise his right to defend himself....

And being a miniority, well that speaks for itself, and the race card is approriately played as race is a major factor in sentencing, especially in capital murder cases. It's an ugly reality that racism is still extemely prevelant, especially in the criminal justice system.

kensloft wrote: Not asking about parole at all. There are many advantages that are removed from people that are sentenced and imprisoned. Education is one of the privileges that is revoked from people for the rest of their lives. They can never get loans to pursue education thereby leaving them in a state of ignorance. There are many different societal things that are removed from their being able to grow into productive citizens.
These are not "removed", they can't get a loan because they have lousy credit, they have difficulty finding a job, because nobody wants to hire a felon. This is the fault of the law abiding citizens??:guitarist

chicagolosina wrote: No, Sir.....it is you assuming that I assumed an equasion between being poor and making bad decisions..I thought my statement was clear and concise...and I'll make it again, this time I'll explain myself a little further.......



I said nothing about bad behavior..I simply stated that by being a poor miniortiy someone is automatically placed in jeopardy because they are just that....to expand on that, a poor person does not have the resources to properly excercise his right to defend himself....



And being a miniority, well that speaks for itself, and the race card is approriately played as race is a major factor in sentencing, especially in capital murder cases. It's an ugly reality that racism is still extemely prevelant, especially in the criminal justice system.
OK, ALLRIGHTY

now I get it, if your poor, or ethnic, don't bother to try improving yourself, the "system" is stacked against you, the "man" is gonna hold ya down, justice is only available to the rich. Don't worry about lawful behavior, or picking your friends carefully, you can't be held responsible for your actions, because you are disenfranchised, and the man is gonna find a way to get you no matter what yadayadayada.........and another person gets trapped in their own self fulfilling prophecy. Guess what, it was'nt being poor, or ethnic, or a conspiracy of the rich whites. It was the negativity, the lies, and the excuses that prevented them from developing the pride of acheiving, the toughness and determination needed to succeed, and to develop the tools necessary to pry themselves from the vicous cycle of debasement, and denial.

Sorry folks, you may think you are being compassionate and helpful, but all you are doing is enableing more deadly excuses. :-1

Der Wulf wrote: OK, ALLRIGHTY

now I get it, if your poor, or ethnic, don't bother to try improving yourself, the "system" is stacked against you, the "man" is gonna hold ya down, justice is only available to the rich. Don't worry about lawful behavior, or picking your friends carefully, you can't be held responsible for your actions, because you are disenfranchised, and the man is gonna find a way to get you no matter what yadayadayada.........and another person gets trapped in their own self fulfilling prophecy. Guess what, it was'nt being poor, or ethnic, or a conspiracy of the rich whites. It was the negativity, the lies, and the excuses that prevented them from developing the pride of acheiving, the toughness and determination needed to succeed, and to develop the tools necessary to pry themselves from the vicous cycle of debasement, and denial.

Sorry folks, you may think you are being compassionate and helpful, but all you are doing is enableing more deadly excuses. :-1


You're missing the point, I think.

It is not a matter of whether the ethnic minority, poor person and/or person who lives in Texas has made something of themselves...it is about the inconsistency of the application of capital punishment as well as the chance, however small, that the person may be innocent.

Der Wulf wrote: OK, ALLRIGHTY

now I get it, if your poor, or ethnic, don't bother to try improving yourself, the "system" is stacked against you, the "man" is gonna hold ya down, justice is only available to the rich. Don't worry about lawful behavior, or picking your friends carefully, you can't be held responsible for your actions, because you are disenfranchised, and the man is gonna find a way to get you no matter what yadayadayada.........and another person gets trapped in their own self fulfilling prophecy. Guess what, it was'nt being poor, or ethnic, or a conspiracy of the rich whites. It was the negativity, the lies, and the excuses that prevented them from developing the pride of acheiving, the toughness and determination needed to succeed, and to develop the tools necessary to pry themselves from the vicous cycle of debasement, and denial.

Sorry folks, you may think you are being compassionate and helpful, but all you are doing is enableing more deadly excuses. :-1


Your argument is apples and oranges here…who’s talking about improving one’s lot in life, besides you?

I was noting the fact (as proven by your governments own statistics) that race and poverty plays a major part in capital murder cases. I am not saying that race and poverty is an excuse for criminal behavior..your saying that, and your angry about it…so who is enabling more deadly excuses?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/FactSheet.pdf

Persons executed for interracial murders:

White Defendant/Black Victim:12 Black Defendant/White Victim: 192

96% of the States where there have been reviews of race and the death penalty there was a pattern of either race-of-victim, or race-of-defendant, or both

Statistical study in Philadelphia found that for similar crimes committed by similar defendants, blacks received the death penalty at a 38% higher rate than all others.

A comprehensive study on the death penalty in North Carolina found the odds of receiving a death sentence rose by 3.5 times among those whose victims were white.

We can argue back and forth about this forever, but it still won’t change either of our minds, and that is fine, we are both entitled to our own opinions….your for it, I’m against it, period.

The reasons I am against it are because it is not applied evenly, an innocent person could be put to death, the expense, the fact that it has been proven not to be a deterrent to crime, the list goes on and on…So why do you feel that it is right? I am interested in your opinions.

I’m so sorry you feel the way you posted above, all I got from that post was hate. Correct me if I am wrong, because I would sure like to be.

chicagolosina wrote: Your argument is apples and oranges here…who’s talking about improving one’s lot in life, besides you?

I was noting the fact (as proven by your governments own statistics) that race and poverty plays a major part in capital murder cases. I am not saying that race and poverty is an excuse for criminal behavior..your saying that, and your angry about it…so who is enabling more deadly excuses?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/FactSheet.pdf

Persons executed for interracial murders:

White Defendant/Black Victim:12 Black Defendant/White Victim: 192

96% of the States where there have been reviews of race and the death penalty there was a pattern of either race-of-victim, or race-of-defendant, or both

Statistical study in Philadelphia found that for similar crimes committed by similar defendants, blacks received the death penalty at a 38% higher rate than all others.

A comprehensive study on the death penalty in North Carolina found the odds of receiving a death sentence rose by 3.5 times among those whose victims were white.

We can argue back and forth about this forever, but it still won’t change either of our minds, and that is fine, we are both entitled to our own opinions….your for it, I’m against it, period.

The reasons I am against it are because it is not applied evenly, an innocent person could be put to death, the expense, the fact that it has been proven not to be a deterrent to crime, the list goes on and on…So why do you feel that it is right? I am interested in your opinions.

I’m so sorry you feel the way you posted above, all I got from that post was hate. Correct me if I am wrong, because I would sure like to be.


Me too, Der Wulfe. I've got to see what this bramble bush is going to produce.

chicagolosina wrote:

I’m so sorry you feel the way you posted above, all I got from that post was hate. Correct me if I am wrong, because I would sure like to be.
Cool, so now yer doin a psychoanalysis of Der Wulf, and for free no less.

Last one about 12 yrs ago cost Uncle Sam several thousand dollars, but i guess that probably included the FBI investigation.

Would it help if i sent you my DOD clearance number, maybe they'll send you a copy of the old one.



At any rate i'll look forward to your explanation of my hatefullness, you know, like who i hate, and why i hate them, and where you got this remarkable talent for long distance mental acuity. :-6

Der Wulf wrote: Cool, so now yer doin a psychoanalysis of Der Wulf, and for free no less.

Last one about 12 yrs ago cost Uncle Sam several thousand dollars, but i guess that probably included the FBI investigation.

Would it help if i sent you my DOD clearance number, maybe they'll send you a copy of the old one.



At any rate i'll look forward to your explanation of my hatefullness, you know, like who i hate, and why i hate them, and where you got this remarkable talent for long distance mental acuity. :-6


Although calling you hateful is not a fact and a huge leap in assumption, there are a lot of facts presented so far that you have yet to respond to. Not responding with a counter to the reasons for abolishing the death penalty but continuing to support it makes you subject to being considered biased for maintaining an opinion despite the facts. Offer a defense and it will become less personal. Or admit that you have no defense.

koan wrote: Although calling you hateful is not a fact and a huge leap in assumption, there are a lot of facts presented so far that you have yet to respond to. Not responding with a counter to the reasons for abolishing the death penalty but continuing to support it makes you subject to being considered biased for maintaining an opinion despite the facts. Offer a defense and it will become less personal. Or admit that you have no defense.
Actually sweets, if you check through the threads, you'll see that i did answer.



I could go to the DOJ records and present counter statistics, or explain in boring detail the criteria required to be elgible for the death penalty, but the result would be the same. There are those convinced that the US is in general uncivilized, frought with racial inequity, and dominated socially by wealthy industrialusts that got that way by trodding on the necks of the poor and disadvantaged. The proof of our callousness, and ignorance is that we have no respect for human life. We force the poor and ethnics[p&e] into desperation, then our brutal and corrupt cops, drag them into a prejudiced and uncaring justice system, from whence they, [p&e]'s are marched in horrifying numbers to death chambers where we waste millions of dollars trying to enforce our perverted "justice".

Then our blood thirst not quenched, we go off to the middle east and slaughter even more [p&e's], just for the entertainment of our stupid, and greedy politicians and their filthy rich friends at Haliburton.



Now when i argue that the cycle of despair can be overcome through making good choices, and hard work, i am hateful.



Sorry Koan, i respect you and i think you'll hafta admit that the sort of rant above is not typical of me. But ya know, sometimes ya have a bad day, and every once in a while, insipidness, like BS gets to be more than an old grouch can tolerate :yh_peace :yh_kiss

Der Wulf wrote: Actually sweets, if you check through the threads, you'll see that i did answer.



I could go to the DOJ records and present counter statistics, or explain in boring detail the criteria required to be elgible for the death penalty, but the result would be the same. There are those convinced that the US is in general uncivilized, frought with racial inequity, and dominated socially by wealthy industrialusts that got that way by trodding on the necks of the poor and disadvantaged. The proof of our callousness, and ignorance is that we have no respect for human life. We force the poor and ethnics[p&e] into desperation, then our brutal and corrupt cops, drag them into a prejudiced and uncaring justice system, from whence they, [p&e]'s are marched in horrifying numbers to death chambers where we waste millions of dollars trying to enforce our perverted "justice".

Then our blood thirst not quenched, we go off to the middle east and slaughter even more [p&e's], just for the entertainment of our stupid, and greedy politicians and their filthy rich friends at Haliburton.



Now when i argue that the cycle of despair can be overcome through making good choices, and hard work, i am hateful.



Sorry Koan, i respect you and i think you'll hafta admit that the sort of rant above is not typical of me. But ya know, sometimes ya have a bad day, and every once in a while, insipidness, like BS gets to be more than an old grouch can tolerate :yh_peace :yh_kiss
It was actually a really good rant, as such. It is sufficient to say that the stats in percentage of black or ethnic minority people given the death penalty matches the percentage of black/ethnic minorities that commit crimes punishable by death I don't know if that is true or if, in fact, that is what you are saying. Why so many in Texas? I'd say it's a good reason not to move there but I don't plan on killing anyone anyway so it wouldn't really matter. I'd hate to be stuck with that accent for the rest of my life...I might be fixin to kill myself!

We all have a bad day. What if the judge/jury had a bad day when it came time to ruling on a death penalty sentence. What about the drunken lawyers? They may not have had a bad day, but the next morning must have sucked (not as bad as their unfortunate client's though).

Koan: http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/deathrow.htm

Interesting link. Texas does not seem to execute in a racially discriminatory way (although other areas do) BUT they do execute in larger numbers. There is inequality in the country when one area executes more often. This is not just a racial matter. See section from my earlier post repeated here. And there are other non racial factors remaining.

koan wrote: The Inequities of Location

Of the 330 executions which have taken place since 1976, 274 (or 83 percent) have occurred in the South. Texas, alone, has accounted for about a third of all executions in the country. And even within Texas, the practice is anything but uniform. Houston, whose population makes up about 16 percent of Texas's total population, is responsible for about a third of Texas's death row.[18] Similarly, over half of Pennsylvania's death row comes from one city, Philadelphia.[19] Philadelphia contains only 14 percent of the state's population but its prosecutor pursues the death penalty in virtually every available case.

Der Wulf wrote: Actually sweets, if you check through the threads, you'll see that i did answer.



I could go to the DOJ records and present counter statistics, or explain in boring detail the criteria required to be elgible for the death penalty, but the result would be the same. There are those convinced that the US is in general uncivilized, frought with racial inequity, and dominated socially by wealthy industrialusts that got that way by trodding on the necks of the poor and disadvantaged. The proof of our callousness, and ignorance is that we have no respect for human life. We force the poor and ethnics[p&e] into desperation, then our brutal and corrupt cops, drag them into a prejudiced and uncaring justice system, from whence they, [p&e]'s are marched in horrifying numbers to death chambers where we waste millions of dollars trying to enforce our perverted "justice".

Then our blood thirst not quenched, we go off to the middle east and slaughter even more [p&e's], just for the entertainment of our stupid, and greedy politicians and their filthy rich friends at Haliburton.



Now when i argue that the cycle of despair can be overcome through making good choices, and hard work, i am hateful.



Sorry Koan, i respect you and i think you'll hafta admit that the sort of rant above is not typical of me. But ya know, sometimes ya have a bad day, and every once in a while, insipidness, like BS gets to be more than an old grouch can tolerate :yh_peace :yh_kiss


Your polemic is great up until you start fantasizing about things. It is a stretch to state that America and Americans are bloodthirsty. That is your invention to suit your purposes in the debate. If there is any bs it is coming with your rendition of things that are the world view of the typical American.

I completely and wholly agree with you about hard work and good choices. You had the opportunity to do the hard work and good choices but that is not necessarily available to everyone especially people that can't speak the language or don't have the necessary qualifications(sometimes just the colour of the skin) to land the job. America has come zillions of miles since the fifties and sixties. It still has zillions to go. It has not arrived at that point yet. The point where everybody practices doing right choices with hard work has not been arrived at yet either, because the jobs aren't there. God bless you for the example you've set. The paradigm of the average American.

You are a brilliant, intelligent man. You have made sure that you have made the education that you have acquired work for you. You are not some illiterate kid from the ghetto or poverty stricken working class family that is completely dysfunctional wanting to get their children educated. It doesn't happen. You struggled, you persisted but in the end you had a home from which you could achieve these goals. Doesn't sound like much. A home?

Million and millions of people that were younger and as young as you were do not and did not have this 'charmed life' with which to build their "American Dream". It may not mean much to you but to millions and millions of people it is a purely fantastic concept. As fantastic as the reasons why people will commit crimes or have bad friends? This seems to be a stereotypical purview from an exalted corner of the world to those that don't understand the reality of what a working life entails, not from not wanting to do the work, because the employment wasn't there for them to search for and utilize to their betterment.

koan has stated a point that has to be addressed

there are a lot of facts presented so far that you have yet to respond to. Not responding with a counter to the reasons for abolishing the death penalty but continuing to support it makes you subject to being considered biased for maintaining an opinion despite the facts.


In Peace

Wow...so much to address here...Forgive me if I add later on - I'm not sure I can remember it all.



1) States can have varying laws, and it doesn't mean that laws are applied indiscriminately. We argue about this all the time - federal gov't or state gov't? We're working through having both. Meanwhile, in a nutshell, so long as the Supreme Court does not find a state law to be unconstitutional, the state has the right to create and apply laws as it sees fit. That includes applying the death penalty. Agree or disagree, it's still the law at this time.



2) The right to vote is removed from convicted felons. Disenfranchised, as LC said. I *believe* that some felons can regain that right under current laws, but I'd have to research that to be sure. The voting laws have changed radically and often over the past centuries.

I do know that the only crime that will deny you student loans for education are drug-related crimes.



3) There have been a few rare cases where law-abiding upstanding citizens have been convicted of crimes they didn't commit based on their remarkable physical similarities to a criminal. I'm vaguely recalling a soldier who spent around 5 years in prison for murdering a family - but he was eventually released after his lawyers proved his innocence.



4) The appeals process is supposed to protect your rights should you ever be wrongfully convicted. While you may be imprisoned and even on Death Row, you still have the ability to try and find justice. That's harsh, and we can never make up for wrongfully convicting someone, but at the same time, we cannot protect every single person from every type of injustice 24/7. We are forced to make choices, and when we do, we tend to err on the side of caution towards society rather than the individual.



5) There is a case under appeals now in Oregon where the defense attorney fell alseep during testimony, and the accused was sent to Death Row. It happens. It's horrible. It can easily be solved.



In Oregon, we have a little program that assesses all health insurance companies twice a year. People who are not eligible for Medicare/Medicaid and other insurances are covered under this plan. It's very simple. We estimate claims based on experience, determine an assessment for every health insurance company in the state, and use those funds to pay for the claims. It is audited every year to ensure the funds are used correctly.



Is it fair to make companies pay for the hardships of others? Not really, no. But when we're talking about our justice system, would it be fair for lawyer firms to help pay for (and/or provide) a decent defense for the poor? I'm leaning towards yes...certainly as fair as it is to make taxpayers fund it.



Providing an adequate defense would go a long way towards improving our system, and our faith in that system.



6) The American Dream. It can happen to poor people as well as those from a good home. It depends largely on grit and choices. People are who they make themselves to be.



I'm real hard on this one. I make no excuses for those who came from rotten backgrounds. I accept no excuses. I have the luxury, because I came from one of those backgrounds.



I've often talked about my dad and how wonderful he was. I stand by that. We came from a family with lots of pride, and no money. Of alcoholism and violence. Of a small southern town with few prospects. My sister and I moved every two years, changed identities, were abused, and had every other statistic thrown at us as we grew up. My dad was married 5 times, my mom is on #4. Not exactly the picture perfect home.



My dad died when I was 16, leaving me destitute - my inheritance went to my baby brother who needed heart surgeries to survive. (As it should be, I've no resentment over that.)

My sister was already married and living in Toronto.

I went to work to survive. I didn't know anything about student loans or other ways I could work my way through college. My mom threw me out when my social security ran out, and at 17 I was on my own. Sink or swim...I'm quite the swimmer, even if that is bragging.



It never occurred to me that I could whine and throw myself on the mercy of society. So I worked 2 jobs, and I saved, and I got by. And in time it got better. I didn't get to college until I was 31. I won't finish until I am 41.



Life has been hard, my life has not been easy, but it has been exactly what I have made of it. It will continue to be so. I am no one's victim, I am no one's statistic, and forgive me if I have a big attitude about it. I am no different than anyone else. If I can do it, and I have, then anyone can do it.



Being poor is not a crime - but using excuses as to why a person cannot accomplish whatever they want to is a tragedy, as well as positively enraging.



We act like dysfunctional people is something new. Sheesh!

Der Wulf wrote: Cool, so now yer doin a psychoanalysis of Der Wulf, and for free no less.

Last one about 12 yrs ago cost Uncle Sam several thousand dollars, but i guess that probably included the FBI investigation.

Would it help if i sent you my DOD clearance number, maybe they'll send you a copy of the old one.



At any rate i'll look forward to your explanation of my hatefullness, you know, like who i hate, and why i hate them, and where you got this remarkable talent for long distance mental acuity. :-6


You know everytime you respond to my posts in this thread, you go into a rant and completely change the topic. For the last time...I said "what I got from your post" and "correct me if I'm wrong" I am entitled to the way I personally feel, and the way I interrupt things did I say you hated anyone?

If you'd like to debate capital punishment, I'm all ears, but to go on and on about completely different topics..(ie hard work and good choices, your FBI profile, and my mental acuity) What's the point? I'm not here to explain myself to you or anyone..I'm here to offer an opinion, a different opinion, my own opinion... :-6

chicagolosina wrote:

I'm not here to explain myself to you or anyone..I'm here to offer an opinion, a different opinion, my own opinion...

...I am entitled to the way I personally feel, and the way I interrupt things

Quite right, please extend me the same courtesy. Let me point out that this is a forum -we each have our own style. If you want simplistic responses, you should probably use simple declarative sentences. Also please remember, whatever you post is fair game for response. Me?, I prefer a more conversational style, and humor, like we were sitting across the table from each other.

chicagolosina wrote: You know everytime you respond to my posts in this thread, you go into a rant and completely change the topic. For the last time...

I'm all ears, but to go on and on about completely different topics..(ie hard work and good choices, your FBI profile, and my mental acuity) What's the point?Actually, methinks you doth protest too much, being a dull day, and challenged into anal retentivness by your last post, I have taken the time to review our exchanges, I have marked the posit/response continuum in red.

WARNING TO THE CASUAL READER, THE FOLLOWING IS QUITE BORING.

#70 Posted by chicagolosina

I can understand you being on the defensive, LC..afterall you are a police officer. The point is that innocent people have and will continue to be convicted of crimes they didn't commit, even if it's only one in a million, it's still one.

If nobody wants to send someone to death row to close the books on a case why are there so many people being found innocent while they are there? There have been 23 in FLA alone, since 1973 and 4 in the last 25 months! What about the rest of the States that have the DP?

Der Wulf responds:

If this were a perfect world, we would not be having this conversation.

With few exceptions, those wrongly convicted, put themselves in jeopardy by lifestyles, and behaviors they had chosen. My point is that to apportion blame, the "innocent" must share the blame for their predicament. We must be very careful to not overvalue their worth to society.

#72 Chicagolosina responds

Yea think of all the innocent poor minorities who put themselves in jeopardy by being a poor miniority....

#73 Der Wulf responds

Please note very carefully, it was you who assumed an equation between being poor, and making bad decisions…… I'm sure the race card will be the next excuse offered.

Not me, I firmly believe that human beings are better than the sum of their parts, if you aspire to be a better person, one of the first things you will do is avoid compromising situations.

#79 Chicagolosina responds

No, Sir.....it is you assuming that I assumed an equasion between being poor and making bad decisions..I thought my statement was clear and concise...and I'll make it again, this time I'll explain myself a little further.......

I said nothing about bad behavior..I simply stated that by being a poor miniortiy someone is automatically placed in jeopardy because they are just that....to expand on that, a poor person does not have the resources to properly excercise his right to defend himself....

And being a miniority, well that speaks for itself, and the race card is approriately played as race is a major factor in sentencing, especially in capital murder cases. It's an ugly reality that racism is still extemely prevelant, especially in the criminal justice system.

#73 Der Wulf responds

OK, ALLRIGHTY

now I get it, if your poor, or ethnic, don't bother to try improving yourself, the "system" is stacked against you, the "man" is gonna hold ya down, justice is only available to the rich. Don't worry about lawful behavior, or picking your friends carefully, you can't be held responsible for your actions, because you are disenfranchised, and the man is gonna find a way to get you no matter what yadayadayada.........and another person gets trapped in their own self fulfilling prophecy. Guess what, it wasn’t being poor, or ethnic, or a conspiracy of the rich whites. It was the negativity, the lies, and the excuses that prevented them from developing the pride of achieving, the toughness and determination needed to succeed, and to develop the tools necessary to pry themselves from the vicous cycle of debasement, and denial.

Sorry folks, you may think you are being compassionate and helpful, but all you are doing is enabling more deadly excuses.

#83 Chicagolosina responds



Your argument is apples and oranges here…who’s talking about improving one’s lot in life, besides you?

I was noting the fact (as proven by your governments own statistics) that race and poverty plays a major part in capital murder cases. I am not saying that race and poverty is an excuse for criminal behavior..your saying that, and your angry about it…so who is enabling more deadly excuses?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/FactSheet.pdf

Persons executed for interracial murders:

White Defendant/Black Victim:12 Black Defendant/White Victim: 192

96% of the States where there have been reviews of race and the death penalty there was a pattern of either race-of-victim, or race-of-defendant, or both

Statistical study in Philadelphia found that for similar crimes committed by similar defendants, blacks received the death penalty at a 38% higher rate than all others.

A comprehensive study on the death penalty in North Carolina found the odds of receiving a death sentence rose by 3.5 times among those whose victims were white.

We can argue back and forth about this forever, but it still won’t change either of our minds, and that is fine, we are both entitled to our own opinions….your for it, I’m against it, period.

The reasons I am against it are because it is not applied evenly, an innocent person could be put to death, the expense, the fact that it has been proven not to be a deterrent to crime, the list goes on and on…So why do you feel that it is right? I am interested in your opinions.

I’m so sorry you feel the way you posted above, all I got from that post was hate. Correct me if I am wrong, because I would sure like to be.

#85 Der Wulf responds

Cool, so now yer doin a psychoanalysis of Der Wulf, and for free no less.

Last one about 12 yrs ago cost Uncle Sam several thousand dollars, but i guess that probably included the FBI investigation.

Would it help if i sent you my DOD clearance number, maybe they'll send you a copy of the old one.

At any rate i'll look forward to your explanation of my hatefullness, you know, like who i hate, and why i hate them, and where you got this remarkable talent for long distance mental acuity.

#93 Chicagolosina responds

You know everytime you respond to my posts in this thread, you go into a rant and completely change the topic. For the last time...I said "what I got from your post" and "correct me if I'm wrong" I am entitled to the way I personally feel, and the way I interrupt things did I say you hated anyone?

If you'd like to debate capital punishment, I'm all ears, but to go on and on about completely different topics..(ie hard work and good choices, your FBI profile, and my mental acuity) What's the point? I'm not here to explain myself to you or anyone..I'm here to offer an opinion, a different opinion, my own opinion

To close this out I'll give you a direct response to the 4 arguments you, actually posted. Twill make no difference, but they will be my exit lines.



it is not applied evenly: fact not proven

an innocent person could be put to death: True, imperfect world, however if we used fear of making a mistake as an automatic stop criteria, we would still have not explored space etc.

the expense: this is the direct result of anti DP efforts.

perhaps this could be restated more accuratly as the cost to keep the criminal alive

the fact that it has been proven not to be a deterrent to crime: nor has life

:yh_peace

kensloft wrote: 100% agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!


I'm not sure what the prisons are like in the States, but in England most are like hotels, with gyms, leisure areas, games etc - what kind of punishment is that for taking someone's life?

I can understand the argument of what if they get the wrong guy, the innocent guy? But what about these serial killers who we know for 100% sure are guilty? In England, capital punishment is not the law, but why are the taxpayers paying a lot of money out of their hard earned wage to keep the scum of the earth in a cushy prison? My sister worked as a prison officer for 6 yrs dealing with rapists, child molesters and drug dealers. And all that time she had to treat them with respect and decency because of their 'human rights'. What about the rights of the kids and women that were raped or slaughtered by these monsters?

They do not deserve to breathe the same air as the decent people around them. :-5

I've already served up enough controversy today arguing with Beth about school uniforms and Linus about Teri Schiavo...

So I'll sidestep this one. I'll just add that New Mexico just got rid of our death penalty this month.

Oh...my Christian teacher's aide just weighed in on this subject....He says "The worst place on Earth is still better than the best place in Hell."

I think that means the Death penalty is worse than Life in prison because that person goes straight to Hell right now, instead of waiting around a while.

lol. He's a funny bird.

smithy87 wrote: I'm not sure what the prisons are like in the States, but in England most are like hotels, with gyms, leisure areas, games etc - what kind of punishment is that for taking someone's life?

What about the rights of the kids and women that were raped or slaughtered by these monsters?

They do not deserve to breathe the same air as the decent people around them. :-5
Precisely on point and beautifully said, the money and concern expended on the scumbag's behalf are a horrible injustice to the victims and their loved ones. We need to remember that the murderer made a choice, the victim was not allowed that courtesy.

You know...I've been thining about this thread all day...and I just thought of something. I'm ambivalent towards the death penalty when discussing it objectively....

But if someone murdered my wife, child, or one of my grandchildren....

They'd have to tie me down to keep me from delivering the death penalty personally and right away. I guess when it's close to home and personal, objectivity goes out the window, eh?