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Ted;687205 wrote: ...when the Divine is beyond human language and human concepts.

Ted:-6


I love that, Ted, thank you.

I feel that God's love is all encompassing, wholly awe inspiring and unconditional but that we tend to want to make it like human love which, to be honest, can be rather partial, judgmental and conditional. Maybe a case of trying to bring the sacred down to the profane rather than trying to raise the profane to the sacred?

theia:-6

Thanks. Good post.

Theism and monism are systems of duality. This means we speak of God as if s/he were out there and not here. However, even scientists are coming to realize that all things in the universe are connected and thus the cosmos itself is sacred as is all life. God is not just out there. In fact the Divine and The Christ are within us. We need to look within. What we have developed and what others see generally is our false self, an image that we have created. We need to get past that false self to our real self and we will find the Divine there as well as the Christ. The Bible even makes the point that we hope to become one with God. We can over time do this. Salvation is not a one shot deal. It is part of our growing transforming relationship with God.

Contemplative and centering prayer are excellent ways to find the divine that already exists within us. The Psalmist says "Be still and know that I am God." This is what those two forms are prayer are about. In the vernacular "Shut up and listen for a change instead of always speaking."

Whether others like it or not this approach is from the Bible which is a product of the early church. Jesus himself practised such prayer, often going off by himself to pray and he encouraged his disciples to do the same.

The ultimate goal of God is compassion and justice (distributive). The kingdom of God has already arrived and will, we believe, continue into eternity.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Considering the OP another thought crosses my mind. Consider what the early Christian missionaries did to our first nations. They had a perfectly good system of government as well as a well developed form of spirituality. They essentially tried to destroy their culture and with it a wonderful approach to spirituality. This says nothing about the residential school fiasco though I'm not sure it can be all blamed on the church. The church, however, for long while denied any responsibility and ignored the complaints that came in. At least some churches are now doing their best to reconcile with the first nations and the wounds are beginning to heal.

This kind of approach continues today in many places. They go in to lure those who already have a faith away from their faith when they should be looking to those who have no faith. More importantly they should be their to show justice and compassion and try to improve their daily lives rather than proselytizing. If they have something to offer than others will see it and may inquire.

Shalom

Ted:-6

FarRider:-6

Great. Another dialogue.

I think once you've read my post on the other thread you will understand. But I will bring one item to your attention.

The Bible says that for a man to lie with another man as with a woman is an abomination. A little later it says the same thing about wearing clothing, at the same time, of more than one fiber. I would suggest that many if not all Christians pick and choose. I could give other examples but that should suffice unless you would like some others to chew on in which case I would be happy to discuss them.

Shalom

Ted:-6

FarRider:-6

Are you not now trying to defend the picking and choosing? It seems to me that if the Bible is indeed the absolute and inerrant word of God than this becomes simply a matter of picking and choosing except we now look for excuses as to why we do that. One cannot have it both ways. Thus the argument is not weak. It stands quite well.

In the NT Jesus said absolutely nothing about homosexuality. It was as prevalent then as now.

The admonitions against homosexuality would appear to come from St. Paul. It is also the same St. Paul that said that women should not speak in church and should have their heads covered. It was also the same St. Paul who said that long hair on a man was improper as was short hair on a woman. It was also the same St. Paul who is known to have had both male and female missionaries. In fact St. Paul never wrote any of those. Only half of what is attributed to St. Paul actually comes from him. The rest were written under his name after his death. This was the usual way to lend authority to what one wrote.

In the writings attributed to Paul he does not seem to have a problem with women. It only comes up in later letters written by his followers.

Then of course we must remember that Paul was not intending to write scripture but simply letters to various churches to instruct them.

Paul himself was too radical for the Roman state and so as time went on his followers tried to sanitize Paul by changing some of his most heart felt ideas. Thus Christianity became more palatable to the Romans.

Jesus, apparently in Matthew 5 has in fact changed the law. "You heard it said . . . but I say unto you . . .

There is also the problem of a serious contradiction between thou shalt do no murder and then, as in Numbers 31, going out and committing war crimes against a people. Add to that Jesus commandment to love one another as he loved us. If the fullness of God is manifested in Jesus of Nazareth then we have a problem when we compare the OT with the NT. In the OT war crimes are permitted and in the NT we are commanded to love our enemies and to do good to those that hate and spitefully us us. We are also told that all of the law and the prophets hinge around that one commandment. Now which god do we worship. The God who permits war crimes or the god who commands love, compassion and justice?

If we take the oriental approach one can say both but that hardly makes sense. In fact it is an out and out contradiction. Either Jesus presented to us the fullness of God or he did not.

I also have problems with a loving God who gets so angry with his people that he decides to assuage his petty anger by demanding blood even if it is his own son. This is related to my reference to maturity. It has nothing do do with you personally but the current view is that this is a leftover from our childhood where we in fear of the authority figures who threaten to beat us. This simply leads to a faith that is based on fear and not a faith based on justice and compassion and the love commanded by Jesus.

Its like saying if you don't do it my way you are going to burn. The person then says well ok I'll accept your way but inside simply carries on. The old saying "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. Jesus threatened no one. He ate with all manner of people and we have no record whatsoever of any threats during those meals. Besides that would be contrary to the Great Commandment and related admonitions. He didn't even ask if they were homosexual and obviously didn't care.

Personally I will go with the God that I see manifest in Jesus of Nazareth who is the basis of our faith and not the book that attests to him. It seems to me that to place the book at any other level amounts to idolatry. The very title of "The Word of God" belongs rightly only to a man, Jesus of Nazareth, and not to a book.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted;681312 wrote: What is wrong with Christianity is the same thing that is wrong with all of the world's great faiths-extremism. We have them in Christianity every bit as much as they have them in Islam and others.



All of the great faiths of the world were founded on two principles, justice (distributive) and kindness to all people not just to those of your tribe.



Islam is not worse nor better than Christianity. They have their extremists as well.



The only sin in homosexuality is the abuse that "Christians" and others subject them to on a regular basis.



The basics of Christianity are the same basics of all the great faiths and they are well spelled out in Micah 6:8; Matt. 22:36ff; Matt. 25:31ff.



Shalom

Ted:-6


Ted

As one who is just now reading the entire thread (late I know)..............

Where did homosexuality come from? (LOOKING at posts before you u I see no reference to it?

The question was:

Whats wrong with Christianity... Not homos!!!!!!

Ted;685766 wrote: FarRider:-6







Common sense told people they could hunt and fish without restraint and now species are going extinct on a daily basis.

Shalom

Ted:-6


OH MR SWAMIE................ Show us ALL the species going extinct on a daily basis.................



Or is this just another NAY-SAYER statement with no FACTS?

Far Rider;687411 wrote: I'm not sure the drift is all Ted's fault... I have been yakin it up as well.

I will ask Tombstone to shift this to a new thread...

Sorry.


I'm not sure it's thread drift, Far. BTS sees Ted's point that The only sin in homosexuality is the abuse that "Christians" and others subject them to on a regular basis as a comment on sin in homosexuality, Ted means it (I'm sure) as a sin within those who criticize homosexuals from a position of what they consider to be Christian truths. If Ted's sentence were less convoluted, say as "Criticizing homosexuality with the perceived letter rather than the spirit of Christianity is a sin", BTS would be less confused by what was said. I hope that helps.

Far Rider;687411 wrote: I'm not sure the drift is all Ted's fault... I have been yakin it up as well.



I will ask Tombstone to shift this to a new thread...



Sorry.


OK Far.......... But lookin back Ted started it........ In his very FIRST post NOt you

spot;687417 wrote: I'm not sure it's thread drift, Far. BTS sees Ted's point that The only sin in homosexuality is the abuse that "Christians" and others subject them to on a regular basis as a comment on sin in homosexuality, Ted means it (I'm sure) as a sin within those who criticize homosexuals from a position of what they consider to be Christian truths. If Ted's sentence were less convoluted, say as "Criticizing homosexuality with the perceived letter rather than the spirit of Christianity is a sin", BTS would be less confused by what was said. I hope that helps.


spot..............

go back and READ the WHOLE thread........

BTS;687413 wrote: OH MR SWAMIE................ Show us ALL the species going extinct on a daily basis.................



Or is this just another NAY-SAYER statement with no FACTS?


I expect http://www.well.com/user/davidu/extinction.html forms the background. The American Museum of Natural History describes the dynamics of an extinction event and the indications that one's in progress at the moment. If it's accurate then "daily event" will become unavoidably true with no possibility of preventing it. I don't think you can pick on Ted for repeating (in imprecise terms) a far wider perception of the current state of affairs.

BTS;687420 wrote: spot..............

go back and READ the WHOLE thread........


Oh, I have. What's wrong with Christianity is that some of its most vocal members are more than prepared to apply the Lord's commands to other people. Taking the commands as instruction on how to lead one's own life is Christian. Taking the commands as instruction on how to order everyone else's life is what's wrong with Christianity.

spot;687422 wrote: I expect http://www.well.com/user/davidu/extinction.html forms the background. The American Museum of Natural History describes the dynamics of an extinction event and the indications that one's in progress at the moment. If it's accurate then "daily event" will become unavoidably true with no possibility of preventing it. I don't think you can pick on Ted for repeating (in imprecise terms) a far wider perception of the current state of affairs.


OK spot....... I ask again

WHEN was the last documented extinction in your lifetime caused by man? and these (your feeble posts) are not in your life time (VERY OLD)





























You're it!

BTS;687432 wrote: OK spot....... I ask again

WHEN was the last documented extinction in your lifetime caused by man? and these (your feeble posts) are not in your life time (VERY OLD)The words themselves highlight the problem of talking about this. It takes fifty years from the last reported sighting of a species before it's declared extinct, for one thing. The indications in the two articles I referenced are to the unavoidable trend toward the fastest major mass extinction event the planet's ever known, and it's entirely man-made. You think that by saying the world's not reached the steep parts of the slope that it's not in progress, for some reason.

Here, anyway, is the current list of registered extinctions, with 784 entries. Bear in mind that this is only those species which haven't been seen either in the wild or in captivity for over fifty years. That fifty year lag between last sighting and registration as extinct is a big damper on the speed that a graph shows the crisis unfolding.

spot;687425 wrote: Oh, I have. What's wrong with Christianity is that some of its most vocal members are more than prepared to apply the Lord's commands to other people. Taking the commands as instruction on how to lead one's own life is Christian. Taking the commands as instruction on how to order everyone else's life is what's wrong with Christianity.


Well said, Spot. We all seem to find it easier to see someone else's mote than our own. And, who knows? If we could only stay close to and listen to what is in our own hearts, we might find that we are all, in reality, mote free.

FarRider:-6

Good response. I have no problem whatsoever with self defense and a just war if one can be called that. I suspect some are and some are not. War is not nice for anyone on either side. I go along with Churchill when he said "war is necessary but not necessarily war.

That being said in Numbers 31 we see a war that is apparently condoned and encouraged by God and war crimes are a part of that admonition from God.

The following part of that quote from Matthew that can be traced back to the historical Jesus is "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and whoever marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery." The rest are words the evangelist put into Jesus mouth. pg xiv, "The Historical Jesus", J. D. Crossan.

That being said one must still consider the cultural milieu of the day and the reasons that one such as Jesus would make such a statement. For instance it was a patriarchal society and women were chattel. Secondly a check of the Jewish encyclopedia will show that in Jesus day polygamy was common. Another point is that it was not considered adultery if a married man went off with another woman who was not a virgin and had a daliance. It is not so easy to simply read an ancient culture and apply it to a modern culture. There are of course other cultural reasons why that should be said.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 5&letter=A

JewishEncyclopedia.com - ADULTERY

I think another place of disagreement is quite clearly on the interpretation of the Bible. You see it as the absolute and inerrant word of God. In my view it is a very human book, albeit written by inspired folks, in which man records his perceived experiences of the Divine or God if you will. God does speak to us through the very human words of the Bible but it is not in and of itself the "Word of God". In fact that phrase rightly belongs to only One, the "Word made flesh", Jesus of Nazareth. The moment we see the Bible as the inerrant word of God it becomes an object of idolatry. We make it equal to God and it is not.

The reference to maturity is this: When we are children we see our father, the earthly one, as the CEO who can discipline us as little children. This ceases when we become adults. It is written that when we are children we see things from a child's point of view. When we grow up we put away childish things. The view of God as a punishing and disciplining father is from the child.

It would also seem to me then that you are practising picking and choosing from the what you consider the Word of God. Now we can look at the law and say well that was for those days. I admit to picking and choosing for the simple reason that many of the contradictions, and there are hundreds, simply do not make sense. However when we see the Bible from the midrashic point of view none of these make one iota of difference nor do the impossible stories such as the creation stories which are then quite easily handled in the 21st cent.

This brings me to another point. One might say well God can do anything.

"The word omnipotens, translated "almighty" in English, is used in some of the first creedal confessions to translate the Greek pantokrator. But its rel referent was the Lord, the dominus omnia potens, which means to say, he who has dominion over everything like a king and in a theocratic sense, not as a absolute being. . . . Michaelis explains in "Kittell" (1964, 3:915) that pantokrator refers to the "supremacy" of God, not to the "power to do all things."" pg 105, "Christophany, the Fullness of Man", Raimon Panikkar.

This then makes some sense of the holocaust and men like Stalin and Pol Pot.

Now, I actually need to think about that one. It is an interesting comment.

Shalom

Ted:-6

BTS:-6

Your attempt at "put down" is rather silly.

As far as extinction goes and good book on the present state of biology will tell you that species are going extinct on a daily basis. This does not mean only the four legged animals, it refers to all living things.

Since I have no intention of reinventing the wheel, so to speak, all I can suggest is that you do a little research.

Shalom

Ted:-6

spot:-6

Yes, that is what I meant in that long sentence. Thanks.

Shalom

Ted:-6

FarRider:-6

I did not say some of the letters attributed to Paul were put there by the reformers. I said they were written by his disciples after his death.

At least I admit that I pick and choose and why. You do the same but deny it.

As far as the word "Almighty" goes I was pointing out a linguistic reality. The word used then had nothing to do with being all powerful. I simply raised a question.

When it comes to my stating what my creator is I think you must have skipped a lot of what I wrote. I clearly pointed out that God is beyond human language and beyond human concepts. Which to put it more simply we cannot define or describe the Divine because s/he is so far beyond us we are incapable. I at least admit that man cannot get a good grasp on the Divine. You on the other hand seem to think you know it all.

But since you've already made up your mind I won't confuse you with the facts.

As far as what I say, anything that has to deal with the Divine is metaphorical and that does not come close to describing or defining the Divine but at least makes an honest step in that direction.

Shalom

Ted:-6

It is rather simple I worship the Creator not a book. When we make the Bible the inerrant word of God it becomes the center of idolatry. We equate the Bible with God when in fact Jesus was and is the living word of God. The Word is not a book. Though there are many useful truths, from God, presented in the midrashic and metaphorical writings of the Bible

Shalom

Ted:-6

BTS;687432 wrote: OK spot....... I ask again

WHEN was the last documented extinction in your lifetime caused by man? and these (your feeble posts) are not in your life time (VERY OLD)





























You're it!
the white finned dolphin..just ceased to exist recently because of man..he was hunted out of existance....

guppy:-6

It's good to see you here.

Shalom

Ted:-6

here is my two cents worth on the subject..the bible was written by man..and changed over the years...it has been altered somewhat...and you cant take the whole thing literally...i dont..i do believe in a divine creater..i do believe we will go on to another existance..into a place we as humans cannot possibly describe in our thought processes...and language..so the bible is not entirely correct..no it isnt..because it is written in our limited thoughts...as humans we are always tempted to go to bad thoughts or good thoughts..we have a choice to grow or not...all of us...the bible is written as a guide to help us to make better choices..not a rule book to stay out of hell..and that is my thoughts on that...



i am not homosexual...but i do not belittle or look down on them..its not my place to judge...

i live under the rules i feel like i am supposed to and allow everybody else the same privelege...to each his or her own..as long as they are not hurting anybody else, its none of my business.



It would be nice to see you all give your opinions and allow the others on here the same regard...you do not teach or enlighten by shoving thoughts down someones throat..you do it by living the life you think is correct by example..and thats it...but that is just my opinion...:p

Ted;688853 wrote: guppy:-6



It's good to see you here.



Shalom

Ted:-6




Hello Ted..good to see you too..



Gupps:)

Sweet Tooth;686131 wrote:



Now, if you want to talk about dirrty religions, lay off Christianity and talk about something else, like Catholicism.


Wow. I'm not Catholic and that even offended me.

jimbo;688866 wrote: whats wrong with Christianity .... how about the total lack of any proof of Christ ever being alive


And how about the presumption that it's the only "right" religion??

jimbo;688869 wrote: presumpted by whome my friend :)
By the majority of Christians. At least that's been my experience with them.

Did Far use the word "willeth"?

:-6

I have to go back and read this whole thread now.

Off the top of my head...

There is nothing wrong with religion. It's something wrong with the people who practice it.

Guppy:-6

Excellent posts.



Shalom

Ted:-6

Koan:-6

Good to see you back.

Shalom

Ted:-6

jimbo:-6

For what its worth the top Biblical scholars no longer even question the historicity of Jesus. They firmly believe he was a real live person. I am not talking fundamentalist types but highly academic historians and Bible scholars. They say they are as certain about that as anyone can be in history that far back. History is not an exacting science. It never has been and never will be.

Now, one might want to consider the theology and interpretation written around him and that is another matter entirely.

Shalom

Ted:-6

RedGlitter:-6

Unfortunately there are many in different faiths that seem to think they are the only right one. I personally don't accept that view. All of the world's great faiths began around the tenets of justice (distributive) and compassion though you wouldn't know that by the way some act.

I accept the validity of all these faiths. They all ultimately aim at the one ultimate reality.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Gnosticism:-5

Clint:-6

You have absolutely no idea.

Shalom

Ted:-6

skittles2004;680852 wrote: Hmm so my thoughts on that...

So many people have seen fakes and thats pretty much what christianity is to a lot of people. Sunday... a day to kill time and show off the newest outfits you bought or your hats whatever... What we dont see anymore is crazy out of control christians. Kids standing up for what they believe... praying in schools no matter what people think of them... praying in public... christians being proud to say Under God in the pledge... i believe we have become to comfortable with people saying our God isnt real... that faith means nothing... That there very exsistance means nothing! I am so sick of watching christians as a whole not doing anything about it except showing up on sundays giving there problems to God and asking him for things all the time! Whats wrong with christianity? People have no need for it because of the people calling themselves christians and yet they are not christ like themselves! Thats whats wrong with christianity.


Skittles,

I just reread your original post. I need to apologize to you for taking part in derailing what could have been a very productive thread.

I agree with your analysis of the lethargy that has taken over Christianity. We do tend to call our church going adequate and leave out the important things…the things Christ taught us to do. We are listening to the critics and feeling self-conscious and timid as you say.

I think we need to be careful in our boldness and focus more on our witness. If we stepped up our assistance to the poor and downtrodden (not that there isn’t a lot already), reach out to those who are trapped in self destructive behavior and accepted those who are different than we are, Christianity would regain its health.

I visited a congregation last Sunday that was putting on a campaign to send missionaries to Africa. I looked around the congregation of more than 1,000 and only saw one black face. We need to quit the long distance, showy, feel good evangelism and draw people to Christ where we live. It appeared to me this congregation wanted to brag about what they did in Africa but didn't want black people in their midst at home.

Excellent post Skittles…Thank you.

FarRider:-6

I finally admit that I pick and choose? I've never denied it nor hidden it like most Christians do.

Do I believe that Jesus was God incarnate? Well I can and will answer that but I'm afraid most of the answer lies in the realm of metaphor since by its very nature such a discussion is beyond our limited language and conceptualization ability.

To put it succinctly the answer is no. Jesus was an eastern Mediterranean Jewish peasant. He was born to a woman named Mary and perhaps his earthly father was Joseph but even that is questionable and that is why during his lifetime he was called a "mamser" which is a person of questionable parentage. He was a spirit person, a teacher, a healer, an exorcist, a miracle worker etc. He was a person who had a powerful experience of God or the Divine or the Ultimate reality. He had an incredible indescribable experience of God.

Because of the nature of this man he displayed and presented to us the fullness of God or the ultimate reality. So in one sense he was and is God incarnate. However, Jesus himself was quite clear that he was and was not the Divine as such. He told us the words he spoke were not his but from the Father.

In the words of the Christian mystics he wasn't God as such and he was. Not this and not that. Not one and not two. Now we're are into the realm of metaphor. He clearly said I am in the Father and the Father is in me and so it is with all those who follow the Divine will. God is in us and we are in God. This includes all people on the earth. Paul said he is the one "in whom we live and have our being. We are to look for the face of Christ in all people not just Christians. We must look inside to find the Divine.

I believe beyond any doubt that he was the Messiah. I also believe in and have experienced the risen Lord.

Shalom

Ted:-6