I think there can only be the death penalty with DNA evidence. Screw the people who identify out of a line up, screw the people who see a vehicle even with a license plate number. Death can only be directed through exact DNA linking the crime to the person.
I hate the idea of supporting a criminal doing life for murder but I do not want to be responsible for the wrong person getting death.
Time for another Death Penalty thread
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nvalleyvee
- Posts: 5191
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:57 am
Time for another Death Penalty thread
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
Time for another Death Penalty thread
koan;673184 wrote: Except not everyone gets the death penalty for the same crime. That's part of the problem. Inconsistent application. Black people die more often.
HUH?
quote koan:
"Black people die more often."
Why is that?
In 2005, offending rates for blacks were more than 7 times higher than the rates for whites
To view data, click on the chart.
[D]
Let me reiterate. WHITES ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. Neither are blacks or another minority. The problem is an individuals decision to break the law, tie up taxpayers money and make life less free and more costly for law-abiding citizens.
Crime desensitizes and negates our social moral structure. Repeated exposure breeds nonchalance toward and we are less appalled at the offenders and the offences. When white supremacist state that blacks are responsible for our degenerating moral structure, they are incorrect only in that every black is not responsible. But every Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, Indian, etc. that commits a crime slowly destroys the fabric of liberty that everyone so richly deserves.
HUH?
quote koan:
"Black people die more often."
Why is that?
In 2005, offending rates for blacks were more than 7 times higher than the rates for whites
To view data, click on the chart.
[D]
Let me reiterate. WHITES ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. Neither are blacks or another minority. The problem is an individuals decision to break the law, tie up taxpayers money and make life less free and more costly for law-abiding citizens.
Crime desensitizes and negates our social moral structure. Repeated exposure breeds nonchalance toward and we are less appalled at the offenders and the offences. When white supremacist state that blacks are responsible for our degenerating moral structure, they are incorrect only in that every black is not responsible. But every Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, Indian, etc. that commits a crime slowly destroys the fabric of liberty that everyone so richly deserves.
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Time for another Death Penalty thread
koan;673195 wrote: :-2
How so? True I didn't burden it with statistics but are you doubting that the statistics will show a black man is more likely to get the death penalty for the same crime as a white man?
Sorry, but I had to spend at least some time with my beloved before bed.
BTS pretty much covered it. I don't know of any of these color-coded studies that take into consideration repeat offenders, details/circumstances of the crime (which help to determine sentencing), demeanor/remorse of the convict, etc. Each case has to be tried individually; a jury can't and shouldn't check statistics to see if the affirmative action numbers are right.
How so? True I didn't burden it with statistics but are you doubting that the statistics will show a black man is more likely to get the death penalty for the same crime as a white man?
Sorry, but I had to spend at least some time with my beloved before bed.
BTS pretty much covered it. I don't know of any of these color-coded studies that take into consideration repeat offenders, details/circumstances of the crime (which help to determine sentencing), demeanor/remorse of the convict, etc. Each case has to be tried individually; a jury can't and shouldn't check statistics to see if the affirmative action numbers are right.
Time for another Death Penalty thread
koan;673195 wrote: :-2
How so? True I didn't burden it with statistics but are you doubting that the statistics will show a black man is more likely to get the death penalty for the same crime as a white man?
Given the OJ Simpson verdict, shouldn't that read the poor man is more likely to get the death penalty for the same crime as a rich man?
How so? True I didn't burden it with statistics but are you doubting that the statistics will show a black man is more likely to get the death penalty for the same crime as a white man?
Given the OJ Simpson verdict, shouldn't that read the poor man is more likely to get the death penalty for the same crime as a rich man?
Time for another Death Penalty thread
BTS;673217 wrote: HUH?
quote koan:
"Black people die more often."
Why is that?
In 2005, offending rates for blacks were more than 7 times higher than the rates for whites
To view data, click on the chart.
[D]
Let me reiterate. WHITES ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. Neither are blacks or another minority. The problem is an individuals decision to break the law, tie up taxpayers money and make life less free and more costly for law-abiding citizens.
Crime desensitizes and negates our social moral structure. Repeated exposure breeds nonchalance toward and we are less appalled at the offenders and the offences. When white supremacist state that blacks are responsible for our degenerating moral structure, they are incorrect only in that every black is not responsible. But every Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, Indian, etc. that commits a crime slowly destroys the fabric of liberty that everyone so richly deserves.
What you are showing is not the rate of offending but the rate of conviction.
You graph incorporates all of the bias that is the subject of the discussion.
quote koan:
"Black people die more often."
Why is that?
In 2005, offending rates for blacks were more than 7 times higher than the rates for whites
To view data, click on the chart.
[D]
Let me reiterate. WHITES ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. Neither are blacks or another minority. The problem is an individuals decision to break the law, tie up taxpayers money and make life less free and more costly for law-abiding citizens.
Crime desensitizes and negates our social moral structure. Repeated exposure breeds nonchalance toward and we are less appalled at the offenders and the offences. When white supremacist state that blacks are responsible for our degenerating moral structure, they are incorrect only in that every black is not responsible. But every Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, Indian, etc. that commits a crime slowly destroys the fabric of liberty that everyone so richly deserves.
What you are showing is not the rate of offending but the rate of conviction.
You graph incorporates all of the bias that is the subject of the discussion.
Time for another Death Penalty thread
Bryn Mawr;674519 wrote: Given the OJ Simpson verdict, shouldn't that read the poor man is more likely to get the death penalty for the same crime as a rich man?
quite right. there are a few factors that make the application inconsistent. I was just throwing out one of the obvious ones.
BTS has trouble posting relevant charts. We've had that problem in the past. I just ignore it. :yh_whistl
quite right. there are a few factors that make the application inconsistent. I was just throwing out one of the obvious ones.
BTS has trouble posting relevant charts. We've had that problem in the past. I just ignore it. :yh_whistl
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Time for another Death Penalty thread
:wah:
Ahem. Sorry.
:wah:
Ahem. Sorry.
:wah:
Time for another Death Penalty thread
Peg;671419 wrote: It would depend on the crime. I would gladly flip the switch or give the injection to a pedophile.
so would i peg
so would i peg
The rottie queen
Time for another Death Penalty thread
as for innocent people getting hung
does any one realise how hard it is to get a guilty verdict
near imposible
does any one realise how hard it is to get a guilty verdict
near imposible
"To be foolish and to recognize that one is foolish, is better than to be foolish and imagine that one is wise."
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talkingamoeba
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:24 am
Time for another Death Penalty thread
el guapo;675008 wrote: as for innocent people getting hung
does any one realise how hard it is to get a guilty verdict
near imposible
Else where I'm not sure of how difficult a guilty verdict is, but here in the land of the free there are too many instances of innocent people being found guilty and serving long sentences. One of the most recent being the case of a schizophrenic man being charged with 2 rapes. He served over 20 yrs. before the real rapist was found out by DNA evidence. The actual rapist has now been linked by DNA to many rapes and several murders. The innocent man could have been put to death if he had been convicted of one of the rape/murders committed by the freak, and the trial had been in one of the death penalty states. Unfortunately beyond a shadow of doubt is often too subjective here.
does any one realise how hard it is to get a guilty verdict
near imposible
Else where I'm not sure of how difficult a guilty verdict is, but here in the land of the free there are too many instances of innocent people being found guilty and serving long sentences. One of the most recent being the case of a schizophrenic man being charged with 2 rapes. He served over 20 yrs. before the real rapist was found out by DNA evidence. The actual rapist has now been linked by DNA to many rapes and several murders. The innocent man could have been put to death if he had been convicted of one of the rape/murders committed by the freak, and the trial had been in one of the death penalty states. Unfortunately beyond a shadow of doubt is often too subjective here.
Sometimes I go about
In pity for myself,
And all the while,
A Great Wind carries me,
Across the sky.
-Ojibwe Saying
In the begining,
Well I don't really Know:-2
After that
Any Thing is possible
-Me
In pity for myself,
And all the while,
A Great Wind carries me,
Across the sky.
-Ojibwe Saying
In the begining,
Well I don't really Know:-2
After that
Any Thing is possible
-Me
Time for another Death Penalty thread
Listen to Britains last executioner's opinion on bringing back the deat penelty
Attached files Peirpoint.mp3 (651.9 KB)
Attached files Peirpoint.mp3 (651.9 KB)
Time for another Death Penalty thread
talkingamoeba;678409 wrote: Else where I'm not sure of how difficult a guilty verdict is, but here in the land of the free there are too many instances of innocent people being found guilty and serving long sentences. One of the most recent being the case of a schizophrenic man being charged with 2 rapes. He served over 20 yrs. before the real rapist was found out by DNA evidence. The actual rapist has now been linked by DNA to many rapes and several murders. The innocent man could have been put to death if he had been convicted of one of the rape/murders committed by the freak, and the trial had been in one of the death penalty states. Unfortunately beyond a shadow of doubt is often too subjective here.
i witnessed my brothers murder would happily have the death penalty back
i witnessed my brothers murder would happily have the death penalty back
"To be foolish and to recognize that one is foolish, is better than to be foolish and imagine that one is wise."
Time for another Death Penalty thread
Peg;671419 wrote: It would depend on the crime. I would gladly flip the switch or give the injection to a pedophile.
Me too,scum of the earth in my book.As for the question would I watch.answer no.
We don't have the death penalty in Britain as you know.Sometimes I wonder if it is right,if it is beyond doubt that some scumbag is a murdering paedophile ie Ian Huntly.hy should the tax payer pay for his upkeep in prison.
Me too,scum of the earth in my book.As for the question would I watch.answer no.
We don't have the death penalty in Britain as you know.Sometimes I wonder if it is right,if it is beyond doubt that some scumbag is a murdering paedophile ie Ian Huntly.hy should the tax payer pay for his upkeep in prison.
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drumbunny1
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:29 am
Time for another Death Penalty thread
To all the people that don't support the death penalty...God forbid this would happen to you but....have your year old child...wife...parents..whoever it is close to you raped, mamed, murdered...I bet you'd change your mind...you would want the murder's BLOOD!!!...and if you don't then good for you that you can be in such a terrible situation and still forgive...
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drumbunny1
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:29 am
Time for another Death Penalty thread
As a matter of fact its a heck of a lot cheaper to give the death penalty...we'll say about $300,000 for lethal injection...but its about $45,000 a YEAR to house them..and that doesn't include C.O. wages and benefits...
Time for another Death Penalty thread
drumbunny1;715731 wrote: To all the people that don't support the death penalty...God forbid this would happen to you but....have your year old child...wife...parents..whoever it is close to you raped, mamed, murdered...I bet you'd change your mind...you would want the murder's BLOOD!!!...and if you don't then good for you that you can be in such a terrible situation and still forgive...This weekend's a poignant moment to read a post like that. It's the twentieth anniversary of the Enniskillen outrage and I'd just been reading today's Sunday Tribune article about it which fleshes out "you would want the murder's BLOOD!!!" far better than I could. I'll not isolate quotes from the article but I do urge you to read it from end to end.drumbunny1;715732 wrote: As a matter of fact its a heck of a lot cheaper to give the death penalty...we'll say about $300,000 for lethal injection...but its about $45,000 a YEAR to house them..and that doesn't include C.O. wages and benefits...
It is, of course, true that the financial price of justice can be ludicrously low if one dispenses with the niceties of due process. We could have conviction and execution at the same moment as arrest if we authorize the police to shoot perpetrators immediately instead of arresting them. We could have a new rallying cry - "How did I know he was guilty? I shot him. We only shoot the guilty". If, on the other hand, you're trying to describe actual costs within the current legal framework, there are analyses which show the financial cost of maintaining the death penalty to exceed the financial cost of not having one.
Here's a University of Vermont summary of existing studies, for example. By all means post alternatives, there are a lot of them about.A study found that the death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of imprisonment for life (Cook & Slawson. 1993). On a national basis, these figures translate to an extra cost of over $700 million dollars spent since 1976 on the death penalty.
[...] Florida spent an estimated $57 million on the death penalty from 1973 to 1988 to achieve 18 executions - that is an average of $3.2 million per execution (Miami Herald). It costs six times more to execute a person in Florida than to incarcerate a prisoner for life with no parole. In Texas, a death penalty case costs an average of $2.3 million, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years (Dallas Morning News). The death penalty costs California $90 million annually beyond the ordinary costs of the justice system - $78 million of that total incurred at the trial level (Sacramento Bee). The New York Department of Correctional Services estimated that implementing the death penalty would cost the state about $118 million annually. To illustrate the cost, it is estimated that the money it would take to implement the death penalty in New York for just five years would be enough to fund 250 additional police officers and build prisons for 6,000 inmates (Lacayo, 1987).
It is, of course, true that the financial price of justice can be ludicrously low if one dispenses with the niceties of due process. We could have conviction and execution at the same moment as arrest if we authorize the police to shoot perpetrators immediately instead of arresting them. We could have a new rallying cry - "How did I know he was guilty? I shot him. We only shoot the guilty". If, on the other hand, you're trying to describe actual costs within the current legal framework, there are analyses which show the financial cost of maintaining the death penalty to exceed the financial cost of not having one.
Here's a University of Vermont summary of existing studies, for example. By all means post alternatives, there are a lot of them about.A study found that the death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of imprisonment for life (Cook & Slawson. 1993). On a national basis, these figures translate to an extra cost of over $700 million dollars spent since 1976 on the death penalty.
[...] Florida spent an estimated $57 million on the death penalty from 1973 to 1988 to achieve 18 executions - that is an average of $3.2 million per execution (Miami Herald). It costs six times more to execute a person in Florida than to incarcerate a prisoner for life with no parole. In Texas, a death penalty case costs an average of $2.3 million, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years (Dallas Morning News). The death penalty costs California $90 million annually beyond the ordinary costs of the justice system - $78 million of that total incurred at the trial level (Sacramento Bee). The New York Department of Correctional Services estimated that implementing the death penalty would cost the state about $118 million annually. To illustrate the cost, it is estimated that the money it would take to implement the death penalty in New York for just five years would be enough to fund 250 additional police officers and build prisons for 6,000 inmates (Lacayo, 1987).
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Time for another Death Penalty thread
spot;715745 wrote: We could have conviction and execution at the same moment as arrest if we authorize the police to shoot perpetrators immediately instead of arresting them. We could have a new rallying cry - "How did I know he was guilty? I shot him. We only shoot the guilty".
To emphasise this point, I will put forward the case of Juan Charles Menendez.
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid ... 1746712007
To emphasise this point, I will put forward the case of Juan Charles Menendez.
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid ... 1746712007
An ye harm none, do what ye will....
Time for another Death Penalty thread
I really think that people that favor the death penalty have a personal fear of death and view it as the ultimate punishment. I am one that wants his "pound of flesh" and love the idea of retribution. I think that death is too easy a way out for those convicted of the most violent crimes. Let em rot in jail, take away their freedom. I do wish there was hard labor however.
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drumbunny1
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:29 am
Time for another Death Penalty thread
Very good point Lon....life imprisonment is worse for some people...but like you said...make it more than a just a "life vacation" where they don't have to work....they eat...sleep...and try to pass the day without any consequences