Brave Hamas Freedom Fighters

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:52 am

mrsK;452095 wrote: Why does that have to happen?????It doesn't have to. I promise not to be sarcastic toward you, there's a start. I hope I'm not sarcastic toward anyone. I do try to stick to the point at hand, and contribute positively, but I'm in no position to judge either my success or my own technique.

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:42 am

Diuretic;452173 wrote: I am suggesting that as a tactic, if that was what it was, it is a bit suspect.Brave, though.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:45 am

and now the latest from Gaza:

Report: Palestinian women victims of violence

Rape, other abuse widespread in territories, Human Rights Watch says

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15593267/

OK Koan and Spot come and show us how the Israelis have forced Palestinian men to treat their women like this..

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:25 am

zinkyusa;452259 wrote: and now the latest from Gaza:

Report: Palestinian women victims of violence

Rape, other abuse widespread in territories, Human Rights Watch says

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15593267/

OK Koan and Spot come and show us how the Israelis have forced Palestinian men to treat their women like this..

What's the relevance of that article, if any, in the context of this thread?

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:39 am

Bill Sikes;452288 wrote: What's the relevance of that article, if any, in the context of this thread?

it's obvious to most people i imagine..

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:56 am

Israel's latest "oops" - oh so sorry, we'll look into whether this was 'a technical error" or "a human error"

Israel kills 18 civilians in Gaza shelling

Israeli artillery shells killed 18 Palestinian civilians in northern Gaza on Wednesday, local officials and witnesses said, prompting swift vows of retaliation from Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

It was the deadliest single Israeli attack on Palestinians in four years.

"We saw legs, we saw heads, we saw hands scattered in the street," said Attaf Hamad, 22, in Beit Hanoun, a town in the northern Gaza Strip that has been a launching ground for Palestinian militants' rocket attacks on Israel.

The strike was condemned across Europe and the Middle East. But an initial response by the United States stopped short of reprimanding Israel, whose prime minister, Ehud Olmert, is due to meet President George W. Bush in Washington on Monday.

How many "oops" does it take to make a war crime?

"Brave" Israel, bombs civilians asleep in their homes.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:15 am

koan;453312 wrote: Israel's latest "oops" - oh so sorry, we'll look into whether this was 'a technical error" or "a human error"

Israel kills 18 civilians in Gaza shelling

Israeli artillery shells killed 18 Palestinian civilians in northern Gaza on Wednesday, local officials and witnesses said, prompting swift vows of retaliation from Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

It was the deadliest single Israeli attack on Palestinians in four years.

"We saw legs, we saw heads, we saw hands scattered in the street," said Attaf Hamad, 22, in Beit Hanoun, a town in the northern Gaza Strip that has been a launching ground for Palestinian militants' rocket attacks on Israel.

The strike was condemned across Europe and the Middle East. But an initial response by the United States stopped short of reprimanding Israel, whose prime minister, Ehud Olmert, is due to meet President George W. Bush in Washington on Monday.

How many "oops" does it take to make a war crime?

"Brave" Israel, bombs civilians asleep in their homes.

Reuters forgot to mention this:

Israel halted artillery attacks in Gaza while it investigated the shelling, but said operations would continue against Palestinian rocket squads. Both Defense Minister Amir Peretz and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert expressed regret at the loss of civilian life and offered humanitarian and medical assistance to the Palestinian Authority.

The tank shells landed around a compound of four apartment buildings in Beit Hanoun, the town Israel took over for a week in pursuit of militants who launch rockets at southern Israel. More than 50 Palestinians, most of them gunmen, were killed before Israeli troops withdrew on Tuesday, and the rocket attacks resumed immediately.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/200611 ... VGUG0.html

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:54 am

zinkyusa;453320 wrote: Reuters forgot to mention thisZinky, is that wretched tale - and I note the weasel-worded "mostly" - meant to excuse the subsequent mayhem mentioned in the previous post? How many did the "the rocket attacks" which "resumed immediately" kill, to warrant such random savagery? "How many "oops" does it take to make a war crime?" seems fair comment to me.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:00 pm

spot;453350 wrote: Zinky, is that wretched tale - and I note the weasel-worded "mostly" - meant to excuse the subsequent mayhem mentioned in the previous post? How many did the "the rocket attacks" which "resumed immediately" kill, to warrant such random savagery? "How many "oops" does it take to make a war crime?" seems fair comment to me.

Of course it does not excuse it, simply points out why the IDF was there in first place...

as noted there 50 gunmen killed prior to this mistake..it takes two sides to fight a war Spot..as usual you and Koan want to only present part of the story..

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:07 pm

zinkyusa;453352 wrote: Of course it does not excuse it, simply points out why the IDF was there in first place...

as noted there 50 gunmen killed prior to this mistake..it takes two sides to fight a war Spot..as usual you and Koan want to only present part of the story..I can't speak for the other but all I do, consistently, is highlight the total disparity between the effects either side is having. It would indeed take two sides to fight a war. This isn't a war, this is murderous unrestrained repression by a sociopath society top-heavy with weaponry.

You left out the "mostly". Even the news report you quoted didn't go that far.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:13 pm

zinkyusa;452259 wrote: and now the latest from Gaza:

Report: Palestinian women victims of violence

Rape, other abuse widespread in territories, Human Rights Watch says

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15593267/

OK Koan and Spot come and show us how the Israelis have forced Palestinian men to treat their women like this..

From the web site of Human rights watch which is where msnbc got the article in the first place. Don't know if you actually looked at it before you used the article but here are just a brief selection of the other items on the site.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10 ... m14465.htm

U.S.: Vice President Endorses Torture

http://hrw.org/campaigns/torture.htm

U.S. Torture and Abuse of Detainees

http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/

Fatal Strikes

Israel’s Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon

So if the one you picked is an accurate report then how about some of the others? Or do you hold to the view anyone criticising israel or the west is biased and anyone criticising the palestinians is accurate?

Who's forcing americans to torture prisoners and israelis to dliberately target civilians?

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/israel_lebanon/

Never actually heard of Human rights watch before . Seems to be an american based organisation so how it compares to amnesty international for accuracy I don't know.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:15 pm

zinkyusa;453352 wrote: as noted there 50 gunmen killed prior to this mistake..it takes two sides to fight a war Spot..as usual you and Koan want to only present part of the story..

Your article says "More than 50 Palestinians, most of them gunmen". That's at least 26 "gunmen". You say "as noted there 50 gunmen killed". Who is only presenting part of the story?

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:21 pm

spot;453360 wrote: I can't speak for the other but all I do, consistently, is highlight the total disparity between the effects either side is having. It would indeed take two sides to fight a war. This isn't a war, this is murderous unrestrained repression by a sociopath society top-heavy with weaponry.

You left out the "mostly". Even the news report you quoted didn't go that far.

Bryn Mahr accuses me of using emotive language, why doesn't he ever say anything when you do it? "Sociopath Society" Spot? Everyone in Israel is a sciopath now? You don't like being called a hypocrite and yet yesterday you get upset with some of my adjectives describing Hamas, and then use equally strong ones to describe Israelis society. I think you are and Koan are incapable of taking off your blinders and being objective about this conflict.

Please quote what you wish for me to comment on in it's full context. I am not as bright as you and Koan, and my memory is not so good as it once was. I require a bit more explanation. What do you mean by mostly? Was it is used in the article I posted somewhere? Did I use it somewhere? I'm not trying to avoid commenting on it I just don't know what you mean.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:24 pm

Bill Sikes;453368 wrote: Your article says "More than 50 Palestinians, most of them gunmen". That's at least 26 "gunmen". You say "as noted there 50 gunmen killed". Who is only presenting part of the story?

Whatever Bill..

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:25 pm

zinkyusa;453373 wrote: Everyone in Israel is a sciopath now?For a society to behave in a given fashion it isn't necessary for everyone in it to have the same mindset. I'm describing a mass behaviour and the directing intelligences, not every individual in the country. Is that an unreasonable use of language? I don't think it is, anyway.

As regards the "mostly", Bill dealt with that in the post preceding yours.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:32 pm

zinkyusa;453375 wrote:

Originally Posted by Bill Sikes

Your article says "More than 50 Palestinians, most of them gunmen". That's at least 26 "gunmen". You say "as noted there 50 gunmen killed". Who is only presenting part of the story?

Whatever Bill..

"Whatever"? You're joking, surely. You're going to leave it at that?

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:35 pm

zinkyusa;453373 wrote: What do you mean by mostly? Was it is used in the article I posted somewhere? Did I use it somewhere? I'm not trying to avoid commenting on it I just don't know what you mean.

See your post #60 in this thread.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:35 pm

spot;453377 wrote: For a society to behave in a given fashion it isn't necessary for everyone in it to have the same mindset. I'm describing a mass behaviour and the directing intelligences, not every individual in the country. Is that an unreasonable use of language? I don't think it is, anyway.

As regards the "mostly", Bill dealt with that in the post preceding yours.

Yes it is very much a misuse of language, you did not say anything about behavior you simply said Sociopath Society..

26 or 50 my point was that Reuters made no mention of the events preceeding the killing of the civilians and therefore their reporting was incomplete..

Bill as usual completley missed the point..I guess you did as well..

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:38 pm

zinkyusa;453388 wrote: Yes it is very much a misuse of language, you did not say anything about behavior you simply said Sociopath Society..

26 or 50 my point was that Reuters made no mention of the events preceeding the killing of the civilians and therefore their reporting was incomplete..

Bill as usual completley missed the point..I guess you did as well..The point of the "mostly" is that it's yet another sideways admission that unarmed bystanders yet again died under Israeli shelling. The lack of care and the lack of interest is depressing.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:47 pm

spot;453390 wrote: The point of the "mostly" is that it's yet another sideways admission that unarmed bystanders yet again died under Israeli shelling. The lack of care and the lack of interest is depressing.

Lack of care and interest are your perceptions and therefore lack any basis in reality..

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:47 pm

zinky wrote: I think you are and Koan are incapable of taking off your blinders and being objective about this conflict
it helps to stick to the facts of the issue and leave the personalities of posters alone

those who stick to the facts will be the ones who impress subsequent readers of the thread. I have little hope of converting the opinion of any of the members on this site. There is no evidence to suggest that it is likely to happen.

What can be found is that new members join, encouraged by seeing their point of view reflected in the debates here. I suspect that calling me blind and previous ranting, raving attacks against my personality might urge others to join and defend me so...go ahead and make an @ss of yourself. You'll only earn me more friends.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:50 pm

koan;453400 wrote: it helps to stick to the facts of the issue and leave the personalities of posters alone

those who stick to the facts will be the ones who impress subsequent readers of the thread. I have little hope of converting the opinion of any of the members on this site. There is no evidence to suggest that it is likely to happen.

What can be found is that new members join, encouraged by seeing their point of view reflected in the debates here. I suspect that calling me blind and previous ranting, raving attacks against my personality might urge others to join and defend me so...go ahead and make an @ss of yourself. You'll only earn me more friends.

I'm not attacking your personality only commenting on your objectivity...

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:54 pm

zinkyusa;453388 wrote: 26 or 50 my point was that Reuters made no mention of the events preceeding the killing of the civilians and therefore their reporting was incomplete..

You didn't even read the Reuters article, then, did you.

zinkyusa;453388 wrote: Bill as usual completley missed the point..I guess you did as well..

Pish[1].

[1] That's a real word, accurately used, in case you didn't know.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:00 pm

Bill Sikes;453405 wrote: You didn't even read the Reuters article, then, did you.

Pish[1].

[1] That's a real word, accurately used, in case you didn't know.

I did read it just didn't see the last continued link...in any case Koan d/n post that last part which provides some context for the events..Much easier to post the parts that d%$n the IDF..

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:07 pm

zinkyusa;453399 wrote: Lack of care and interest are your perceptions and therefore lack any basis in reality..My perception is the dead unarmed bystanders and, sadly, they're all too real.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:11 pm

spot;453419 wrote: My perception is the dead unarmed bystanders and, sadly, they're all too real.

and who are you to accuse people of a lack of care and understanding...you arrogantly claim that you are all wise and knowing?

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:30 pm

zinkyusa;453404 wrote: I'm not attacking your personality only commenting on your objectivity...

I fear, sir, you attempt to shoot the messenger.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:33 pm

koan;453451 wrote: I fear, sir, you attempt to shoot the messenger.

Not at all, I have nothing at all against the messenger, only the message..

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:33 pm

zinkyusa;453425 wrote: and who are you to accuse people of a lack of care and understanding...you arrogantly claim that you are all wise and knowing?The lack of care seems self-evident when severed limbs and pools of blood result without, if you believe the killers, intention. The lack of understanding is entirely your own.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:35 pm

spot;453458 wrote: The lack of care seems self-evident when severed limbs and pools of blood result without, if you believe the killers, intention. The lack of understanding is entirely your own.

and I say that lack is your own..

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:37 pm

zinkyusa;453464 wrote: and I say that lack is your own..Are you seriously proposing that we descend to "Is too", "Is not", "Is", "Isn't"?

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:38 pm

spot;453470 wrote: Are you seriously proposing that we descend to "Is too", "Is not", "Is", "Isn't"?

No but that seems to be your direction..

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:41 pm

zinkyusa;453473 wrote: No but that seems to be your direction..Again I fear we can only leave the thread as it is and allow anyone reading to form their own judgement. I'm quite content to do that. Nothing relevant has been added in these last few posts.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:55 pm

Scrat;453730 wrote: So the IDF losers are killing women again. At least they didn't have a chance to use them as shields like they usually do.

Since the arse whipping in Lebanon they have been uptight. Need to kill something since they can't deliver on anything else. Especially if it shoots back.

I'd hardly call it an "arse whipping". The only real defeat was they lost a lot of world approval, otherwise it was just a matter of not taking Palestine out in the third round. If godzilla went up against a mouse and the mouse still lived at round four there would be a red faced godzilla.