Does God consider homosexuality a sin

[Accountable]

ronin;962751 wrote: God in His infinate wisdom created homosexuality for a reason, assuming that he is always serious and didn't just do it to freak out the rednecks.
Of course God has a sense of humor! Three-toed sloth - do I really have to go on?

[Bryn Mawr]

GunZ;961502 wrote: Well said young man, don't let nobody shove you around. (it's me lilbull, uncle Mitch)


Who's shoving him around? Just trying to hold a reasonable discussion.

After talking to his father for the last two years I'd hardly expect Hoss to be a pushover :wah:

[buttercup]

I like your avatar.

[Bryn Mawr]

Hoss;964387 wrote: Don't worry about my uncle; he's just looking out for me when I probably don't need it. I am a somewhat intimidated here. I really don't know any of you and at the same time I'm trying not to offend anyone. I know what I want to say, but I don't know if anyone can understand what it is I mean.


Let rip :-6

As long as you keep to the subject rather than have a go at the person then you'll not go wrong - you are as entitled to your opinion as anybody and if they get offended then that's their problem.

Be prepared to back your facts up, be able to defend your logic and stand by your opinion - I've learnt a hell of a lot trying to do that.

I've changed one or two of my ideas by finding I cannot support them but I've a far better understanding of what I believe and why than I ever did before.

[buttercup]

Hoss no one is wrong, it would be a very boring world if we all agreed all the time would it not?

[buttercup]

Hoss;964436 wrote: Me? My avatar? Thank you if your talking to me.


Yes, sorry i should have clarified that. The wolf has many things to teach us.

[buttercup]

But everyone's truth is different. This is why i think your dad encouraged you to join here, or thats what i like to think.

[buttercup]

Of course it does Hoss but if your parents are eg: Rosemary & Fred West, what then?

http://www.murderuk.com/serial_rosemary_fred_west.html

[buttercup]

Like i say i think your Dad meant you to become a member here to see different points of view, that does not mean to say that what you have learned is wrong, just that all is not black & white, there are many shades of grey my friend.

[buttercup]

No need to apologize to me Hoss. It makes no difference to my life personally what you believe as i will remain the same (please do not take offence by that). What makes me the person i am today is made up of many shades of grey & much life experience. (my own). I was brought up in the church or faith or call it what you will. I know it well. (my own personal family's religion)

Now that i follow my own path (non religious) does not mean i do not follow a code of ethics or have a belief in a set of life standards - i do.

I respect your beliefs even if i dont agree with them, it has not been easy for me to find my own way & go against many things i was raised or taught to believe but i have & i live with the consequence of that, again not easy.

I stand by it. I think your Dad introduced you to the garden for you to determine your own set of beliefs (not his) This is just my personal opinion of him. If it turns out that you have the exact same set of beliefs then you will not go far wrong in life.

In saying that i dont think ive gone far wrong either

[Ted]

Hoss:-6

Welcome.

First of all I disagree that God wants people to necessarily obey their government. God wants us to do what is best for us and our fellow human beings.

On the homosexuality issue I have several points but will make only a few. Leviticus also tells us that it is wrong to eat shell fish, that it is wrong to wear clothing made of more than one type of fiber or that we can stone recalcitrant children. If you view of the Bible is that it is the absolute inerrant word of God you cannot have it both ways. If one is wrong so is the other.

My second point is that the Bible is an ancient text written in a particular culture for a particular audience for a people who have a limited amount of knowledge. They thought that epilepsy was caused by demons and that illness was from the same cause or misbehaviour. We now know that diseases are caused by viruses, bacteria or genetic abnormalities.

The Bible is a very human book composed of myth, legend, folk tale, poetry, short story, fiction, theology and even a few kernels of history spread throughout. It was written in a particular style called midrash which makes great use of metaphor and using a prior event to explain a more recent event. According to the scholars including Jewish scholars it is primarily a religious book which is not to be taken literally but metaphorically, that there are many valid interpretations and not just one and that the Bible must be reinterpreted based on our accumulated knowledge and experience. Borg, Crossan, Fox, Daum. If this were not the case the Bible would be a dead document from antiquity. The fact that God still speaks to us through the words of the Bible makes it a living document for today. Spong, Goulder, Borg, Crossan, Fox etc.

You mentioned that one option is that God says different things to different folks. God communicates with folks in a way they can best understand based on many factors of which one is culture.

The Bible is not the "Word of God" by virtue of its authorship but by virtue of the fact that God does speak to us through the very human words of the Bible.

I refer to myself as a Christian pluralist. That is I accept the validity of all of the world's great faiths even though I myself am a Christian.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[guppy]

Ted;964538 wrote: Hoss:-6



Welcome.



First of all I disagree that God wants people to necessarily obey their government. God wants us to do what is best for us and our fellow human beings.



On the homosexuality issue I have several points but will make only a few. Leviticus also tells us that it is wrong to eat shell fish, that it is wrong to wear clothing made of more than one type of fiber or that we can stone recalcitrant children. If you view of the Bible is that it is the absolute inerrant word of God you cannot have it both ways. If one is wrong so is the other.



My second point is that the Bible is an ancient text written in a particular culture for a particular audience for a people who have a limited amount of knowledge. They thought that epilepsy was caused by demons and that illness was from the same cause or misbehaviour. We now know that diseases are caused by viruses, bacteria or genetic abnormalities.



The Bible is a very human book composed of myth, legend, folk tale, poetry, short story, fiction, theology and even a few kernels of history spread throughout. It was written in a particular style called midrash which makes great use of metaphor and using a prior event to explain a more recent event. According to the scholars including Jewish scholars it is primarily a religious book which is not to be taken literally but metaphorically, that there are many valid interpretations and not just one and that the Bible must be reinterpreted based on our accumulated knowledge and experience. Borg, Crossan, Fox, Daum. If this were not the case the Bible would be a dead document from antiquity. The fact that God still speaks to us through the words of the Bible makes it a living document for today. Spong, Goulder, Borg, Crossan, Fox etc.



You mentioned that one option is that God says different things to different folks. God communicates with folks in a way they can best understand based on many factors of which one is culture.



The Bible is not the "Word of God" by virtue of its authorship but by virtue of the fact that God does speak to us through the very human words of the Bible.



I refer to myself as a Christian pluralist. That is I accept the validity of all of the world's great faiths even though I myself am a Christian.



Shalom

Ted:-6


You put into words better than i ever could just like i feel about the bible Ted. I grew up believing it as the final authority but as i got older and broadened my knowlege and spoke to so many different people with different beliefs i have broadened my beliefs. There are many different paths up the same mountain. :-6

[Ted]

guppy:-6

I was raised with similar experiences concerning the Bible and the Christian faith. Now, in my view, it was not appropriate.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Bryn Mawr]

Hoss;964433 wrote: LOL! 'let rip' amongst my friends means to 'fart at will'. I tried to back up my facts but I think next time I need to ask what verses you are quoting first. I'm not a bible whiz. I try, but what I don't know my grampa is a phone call away. I pray through the verses and I usually get my answer. What I'm learning here is that either God gives other people different answers than what he gives me, or other people are just wrong. I find it very hard not to offend people when you have to tell them they are wrong. :-3


If other people are wrong and you can back up your reasons for saying so then fine but, personally, I believe your other explanation - God is so far beyond our comprehension that different people can see different aspects of him and get different answers.

It is still the same God, each of the answers is a true vision of God but the details are different.

[Ted]

Bryn Mawr:-6

Some excellent points.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

Hoss:-6

I can truly appreciate where you are coming from. I've been there and done that. As I grew older I realized that things were not as the Bible always said. Thus I went to university and studied both Hebrew and Greek translation, interpretation, biblical history etc. I continue formal studies at the Vancouver School of Theology. I also continue to act as a lay preacher in the Anglican Church of Canada.

That being said I have no problem with you believing as you do but you should be aware that not all Christians believe in the same way.

Myth--the two creation stories.

Legend--The story of Noah.

Folk tale--the story of Lot, much of Isaiah. The story of the Exodus.

Short story--The book of Ruth,

Poetry--Job (not historical)

Fiction--Jonah.

You make a common error which arose as a result of the Reformation. The error is in what is truth and what is historical. Something does not have to be historically accurate to present profound truths about the Divine. The story of Noah is a very good story for learning about the truth of the human animal. A first Nations phrase goes like this "I don't know if the story actually happened this way but I do know that the story is true. "Oliver Twist" by Dickens is a work of fiction but it is loaded with truth. There were many Olivers alive at the time of Dickens--Fred, Harry, Tanya, Ruth, Bill, Henrietta, and hundreds of other names.

The Jews knew the Bible was not historically accurate. It was and is their sacred story. It was never written to be read literally (Rabbi Robert Daum, Israel Finkelstein, Neil Silberman, and a host of others. It was meant to be read and reinterpreted as is necessary.

Now, to the comment that I am selling the ancients short. They were not stupid people. They used an ancient language that is , even today, not easy to translate. Their background or fund of knowledge was not what ours is today. They could only use what they understood. They did not know about bacteria or viruses or genetics. They did not know about horse and buggy or cars or modern medicine. Thus they could not know about diseases and so thought of demon possession. They did not know of the recent research that shows that the brains of homosexual men are different from the brains of heterosexual men. The homosexual brain is structured like the female brain which is different from the male brain.

The Bible as a history book cannot be supported by the scientific or archaeological research. i.e. There is not one shred of evidence for the Exodus as written. It simply did not happen. The story arose out of the expulsion of the Hyksos from the Nile delta.

As a person you do not need to fear the truth. Jesus himself is reported to have said we would know the truth and it would set us free and it does. Do not be afraid to search and study. Do not fear widening your horizons. Do I want you to think and believe as I do? No, not at all, I would only hope that you would take great care to study and learn.

On the issue of homosexuality I recommend reading the history of sexuality in the Jewish encyclopedia.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 5&letter=A

I would also suggest a reading of a theologians comments.

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homose ... alter-wink

I do not mind answering questions.

Perhaps you could do me one favour. I am visually impaired and would hope that you could break your posts into paragraphs as it makes it easier for me to read.

I don't usually make posts this long.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

Ted:-6

[Ted]

Hoss:-6

Just to make a comment on the New Testament. Much of it is midrashic in nature and cannot be read historically. When I began to understand this the Bible became an even more profound and powerful book for me. The Gospels themselves are not biographies but the accumulated traditions of what the church had come to believe about Jesus by the time of writing.

As Bryn Mawr has pointed out we do not have the language nor the conceptualization ability to define or describe the Divine. God or Allah or the Great Spirit if you wish is so much bigger than we are. S/He is beyond us and our abilities to know.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

Hoss:-6

Thanks for the understanding.

I feel very blessed by God and have done so for years. I have lived most of my life relying on the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I am in a community that believes as I do and it is the most profound Christian community I've ever been in and that includes my experiences in the fundamentalist community which I found totally inappropriate.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

Hoss:-6

No offense taken.

I could ask you the same question. What if your stand has turned people away from a religious faith?

I actually dislike immensely the word "saved" because I think it does not express the totality of what it is supposed to refer. A much better word is "transformed" because it expresses what happens in the here and now and into the future.

A close reading of history will show you that all of the word's great faiths began on the two tenets of justice and compassion. "The Great Transformation", Karen Armstrong.

I do not for one moment believe that Christianity is the only way or that it holds a monopoly on the truth. Who is there to say that God has not spoken to other folks in the best way they could understand based on their culture, fund of knowledge, conceptualization ability? Personally I would not dare to make such a statement. That is God's role.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[ronin]

I hve just read through most of these posts in this thread and everyone seems to have gotten off the topic and into name calling and "Jesus" bashing

So i don't have aproblem in putting my 6 cents worth in.

In my origional post, i wasn't being totally serious but the points still hold true.

Fotthose who are fortunate enough to have a belief in god then good on you and youare entitled to your oppinion.

for those that don't believe then good on you and you are also entitled to your oppinion.

However, how about respecting everyones oppinion. Personally as long as you are not hurting anyone else then enjoy.

as for the origional topic, hands up if you remember it!

who among you would be willing to do something that was going to get you bashed, ridiculed, descriminated against and labeled with all mannr of insulting terms?

Just as I thought... No one!

so what makes you think people would be gay by choice?

[Ted]

ronin:-6

An excellent post.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

Hoss:-6

I have no problem with you holding the position you do. However, one also has to realize that there are other Christians who vehemently disagree with you.

I have relied, all my life, on the guidance of the Holy Spirit and have never wavered in that. I was raised a fundamentalist. Without prejudice I will tell you, that what I found was evil and not love. I found this in more than one fundamentalist church. The fundamentalist approach in my view tries to create God in their image.

Our Lord Jesus Christ associated with all types of folks but especially with the poor, the impoverished, the publicans and the prostitutes and without looking it up at the moment made the comment that they would likely be in the kingdom before others. He rejected no one not even the rich young man.

The greatest symbol of acceptance at the time of Jesus was to eat with a person. Jesus meals were in fact sacred and Eucharistic.

With all due respect the fundamentalist approach tries to put God in a box and makes him limited. As Bible translator J. B. Philips wrote, "Your God is Too Small".

I do on occasion quote the Bible when I find it appropriate. I also believe as according to John 16 that all Christian writers down through the centuries had valuable and holy things to say and write about, and that includes modern Christians. Many decry modern religious work, especially that by scholars, and yet with those scholars past and present we would not have the Bible we have today.

As for the phrase "The Word of God" it rightly belongs to only One, the risen one was and is the living word of God. It is a book though it becomes for Christians the word of God because God does speak to us through the very human words in the Bible. Far too many today engage in idolatry because the put the Bible ahead of Jesus and God. They worship the Bible as if it were God.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

Hoss:-6

Do not make the mistake of others. The Bible, the Qur'an, the Vedas, and other sacred writings all claim to be the word of God.

The Ayatolla Khomeini confessed that he had only read one book in all his life and that was the Qur'an. Many have made the same mistake including Christians. They live their lives in ignorance being afraid of the truth.

I forgot to comment above on the other faiths. All of the great faiths of the world have followers that go from one extreme to the other; from extremist to extremist and Islam does not hold a monopoly on extremism. You say you have not met a decent Muslim. Have you met any? We have a Muslim community where I live and they are very kind and considerate folks who follow the teaching of the Qur'an when it says there "should be no compulsion in religion".

Lets look at a few Christians; Those that picket and harass at the funerals of gay folks; those who shoot abortion doctors; those who call for the assassination of foreign presidents; those that join the KKK; those that mock other Christians as well as other faiths.; those that think it appropriate to kill the infidel (oh we do have those in Christianity).

One question I have never had answered: What can you say to a Muslim that will convert her/him to Christianity when they know they are in the right faith?

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

Hoss:-6

I do not mock or laugh at you. I have forgiven the evil that I was forced to be part of as a child but I will never forget. I have made it very clear that what I have said is my perception and my experience.

I will comment on your point of homosexuality. The medical profession is convinced that homosexuality is a given it is not a choice. ronin has pointed this out including that no one would willingly choose the abuse they are subjected to by "Christians".

Unfortunately far too many fundamentalists view all others as being condemned to hell. These people seem to think they have the hot line upstairs. No one has all the answers and those that think they do are living in a delusion.

I do respect you for your stand but do not forget that many Christians will and do disagree with the fundamentalist point of view. We have one church here on this island that will have nothing else to do with any of the other churches thinking they are not Christian.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Tan]

no



Pheasy;776714 wrote: I pulled this out from another thread - so as not to derail.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Printer/hom ... in-PF.html

So is homosexuality a sin, and all those who are homosexuals are going to hell?

Someone very close to me is gay. He is one of the nicest, most caring people I know. A wonderful father and truly a great person. Never has he hurt anyone. He will always go out of his way to help anyone in need, and is very sensitive to all around him.

So as someone him loves him, should I break this shocking news to him that all his wonderful qualities are wasted on God, and he should prepare himself for the fires of hell :rolleyes:


no

[Ted]

JAB:-6

What really amazes me is that some folks seem to think that sexuality is the only way to define a person. Homosexuality is a given. It is not a choice and churches should get over it. There are far more important things in this world to worry about; starvation, poverty, terrorism, illness, the homeless, organized crime etc.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Accountable]

Ted;966488 wrote: JAB:-6



What really amazes me is that some folks seem to think that sexuality is the only way to define a person. Homosexuality is a given. It is not a choice [...]The behavior is.