God-Damned America

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:32 pm

LarsMac;1458648 wrote: It has bothered me since it started. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, changing a title is not possible.

I had thought about opening a new thread with a more "politically Correct" title, and then move all of the posts there.

Where HT to not object, it could be done.

If you don't mind me being perfectly honest I at first regretted using that title. But then I realized something about fairness and from what perspective it should be contemplated.

I am certain that if I cared enough to search through all the pages of FG I'd find the expression, "God bless America". Am I probably right? And what consideration has been given to those who are offended by that? None, I'll wager. This is an international forum. Are Iraqis welcome here? If I'd entitled this thread "God Bless America" would anyone have objected?

So, if you want to delete this thread then there isn't much I can do about it, though I won't agree to it. I have a better idea. That Americans learn to deal with criticisim against all the shyt that the U.S has come to represent, and better still realize what PERSONAL CRITICISIM means and where the line is. Also, aside from the title, I'm curious to know why people still log on to this thread. Maybe it's not so bad after all?

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:04 pm

Well, no, I searched and found not a single thread with the statement "God Bless America" as a title. Perhaps, somewhere in a thread, somebody said that, but it it is not easy to find.

Frankly though, if that phrase offends someone, then I would not really care.

America gets it fair share of criticism on this forum, of that I can assure you. And most of the Americans here certainly acknowledge we have a lot of it coming. But we do tire of being the whipping boys for all the Europeans who seem to think y'all have it all figured out.

We really did not screw the world up all by ourselves. Honest. We had a lot of help.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:36 pm

LarsMac;1458680 wrote: ..... "God Bless America" ..... Perhaps, somewhere in a thread, somebody said that ....

That's all I'm saying.

LarsMac;1458680 wrote: Frankly though, if that phrase offends someone, then I would not really care.

Again that's all I'm saying.

LarsMac;1458680 wrote: America gets it fair share of criticism on this forum, of that I can assure you. And most of the Americans here certainly acknowledge we have a lot of it coming.

I have no doubt.

LarsMac;1458680 wrote: But we do tire of being the whipping boys for all the Europeans who seem to think y'all have it all figured out.

An exagerration?

LarsMac;1458680 wrote: We really did not screw the world up all by ourselves. Honest. We had a lot of help.

:wah::wah::wah:

In the end it's the questioin of the title of this thread and how it might offend some Americans. I don't see how it should. But please now, let's not get into the subject of national pride or lack thereof. A trite subject of no substance of any worth. I once had such a discussion and was told that because I am willing to talk about my own country's faults and that national slander against it have no effect upon me, that I clearly have no national pride and that is proof that my country is a useless, yada, yada, yada. How boring.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:44 pm

recovering conservative;1458620 wrote: It depends on what you consider significant! I think it's significant that, even without the increase in gun-related deaths, the U.S. still has far higher gun deaths than any other developed nation in the world. I took a quick look at the Wikipedia entry on firearms death by nation, and find that, aside from the countries embroiled in revolution and civil war, the U.S. has four times as many gun deaths per capita as Canada; while our gun deaths are being inflated by the proliferation of firearms in America that flow across borders....this is the real border crisis!

I agree. I said it before and I'll say it again. Guns in the hands of desperate people is a dangerous situation. Is it any wonder that Americans are shooting up the U.S. on a daily basis? They have the perfect formulae: GUNS (lots of them!) + DESPERATION (in abundance!)

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:01 am

LarsMac;1458680 wrote:

America gets it fair share of criticism on this forum, of that I can assure you. And most of the Americans here certainly acknowledge we have a lot of it coming. But we do tire of being the whipping boys for all the Europeans who seem to think y'all have it all figured out.

We really did not screw the world up all by ourselves. Honest. We had a lot of help.

It took the Europeans Thousands of years to come to the point that maybe peace is a good thing after all. WWII is still a recent memory. They have nothing to brag about Yet.

As for us, we certainly can take "credit" for screwing up Central America, Vietnam & aided the Europeans in their screw ups in the Middle East.

eta--Bosnia, Serbia--even more recent.

It appears to me that when looking at "who" screwed up the World--look for a White Man.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:37 am

AnneBoleyn;1458694 wrote: It took the Europeans Thousands of years to come to the point that maybe peace is a good thing after all.

Steady on, good lady. "Thousands of years" you say? Let's see now .... the U.S. is, at the moment, only 200 hundred years. It'll take another 800 years for them to reach the first thousand years. How many thousands of years did you say we needed? Let's see how the U.S. will do when it reaches that point. So far - not good.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:41 am

I just meant you guys should get off that high morality horse you're riding. I in no way meant we should continue our mistakes, but should LEARN from yours. But, you knew that already, I'm sure.

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:54 am

The US mindset of today is merely an extension of the European mindset that got us here.

We are what you (Europe) made us. Your misfits. The flotsam and jetsam European "society" tossed onto the waves to land where they may.

We are growing up and coming back to haunt you, like those distant family relations you thought had gone away forever.

Well, We're Baaaccckk!

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:01 am

AnneBoleyn;1458706 wrote: I just meant you guys should get off that high morality horse you're riding.

I don't know anything about 'high horses' (I'll have to consult Oscar on that) but I do know that the U.S. is blasting up the Middle East and Latin America ...... but MOST IMPORTANTLY TO THIS PARTICULAR THREAD .... it is decimating its own back yard, ie. post offices, schools, colleges, universities, grammar schools, kindergartens, churches, road rages, and shopping centres.

Now, if you are offended by my grief for your own population then maybe you should put the subject on "ignore status".

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:07 am

LarsMac;1458708 wrote: The US mindset of today is merely an extension of the European mindset that got us here.

So you're murdering your own countrymen by the thousands in retaliation for my distant Viking uncle who raped your distant Bulgarian auntie a thousand years ago? Yeah, I guess that makes sense - to a donkey. :wah:

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:16 am

High Threshold;1458710 wrote: So you're murdering your own countrymen by the thousands in retaliation for my distant Viking uncle who raped your distant Bulgarian auntie a thousand years ago? Yeah, I guess that makes sense - to a donkey. :wah:

Not what I was saying at all, but nevermind, now I remember why we left home in the first place.

Carry on.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:23 am

High Threshold;1458709 wrote: I don't know anything about 'high horses' (I'll have to consult Oscar on that) but I do know that the U.S. is blasting up the Middle East and Latin America ...... but MOST IMPORTANTLY TO THIS PARTICULAR THREAD .... it is decimating its own back yard, ie. post offices, schools, colleges, universities, grammar schools, kindergartens, churches, road rages, and shopping centres.

Now, if you are offended by my grief for your own population then maybe you should put the subject on "ignore status".

Did you take a Ridiculous Pill this morning, or don't you remember anything about me & my beliefs? If so, dementia comes to my mind concerning your mind. Now stop being silly to me. I'm no friend to senseless violence wherever it occurs.

eta--& I WORK against it however I am able to.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:25 am

LarsMac;1458711 wrote: Not what I was saying at all, but nevermind, now I remember why we left home in the first place.

Carry on.

My grandma left home because the cossacks were trying to rape & kill her. My Austrian side left home for the same reason, but not by the same people.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:26 am

AnneBoleyn;1458714 wrote: Did you take a Ridiculous Pill this morning, or don't you remember anything about me & my beliefs? If so, dementia comes to my mind concerning your mind. Now stop being silly to me. I'm no friend to senseless violence wherever it occurs.

Good news. All of it.

I guess you were only joking about the "high horse".

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:28 am

A metaphor.

I'm not saying Europeans don't have the right to try to assuage us, just to remember from whence you, & all humans, came. Onward!

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:49 am

AnneBoleyn;1458718 wrote: A metaphor.

I'm not saying Europeans don't have the right to try to assuage us .....

I'm not talking about Europeans at all. If I were I might have named this thread, "God-Damed Europe. I just figured if I wanted to join in to criticise fundamentalist Moslem terrorists, A Qaida blasters, Taliban slave masters, Hezbollah suicide bombers, German Nazis, Italian or Spanish Fascists, Serbian "ethnic cleansers", Japanese Bushido nuts, Australian convicts, or British dentists, I'd either start a new thread on it or search for the threads already in the achives or in progress.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:22 am

Understood.

recovering conservative · Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:57 am

LarsMac;1458708 wrote: The US mindset of today is merely an extension of the European mindset that got us here.

We are what you (Europe) made us. Your misfits. The flotsam and jetsam European "society" tossed onto the waves to land where they may.

We are growing up and coming back to haunt you, like those distant family relations you thought had gone away forever.

Well, We're Baaaccckk!

Well, if that's not blame-shifting with a capital B! As a sidenote, notice that there are no blacks or anything other than white hillbillies in that picture?

An honest, unbiased overview of history of the 20th century shows that the U.S. "grew up" after WWII, when it plotted a deliberate course to elbow England out of the way and take its place as the no.1 colonial empire in the world. Here, we thought this was all part of natural progressions, as England's coal-based economy and indebtedness after the War forced Winnie to concede and give up most of England's remaining colonies/while the U.S., being undamaged (aside from the base at Pearl Harbor) by the War, was last-man-standing at the end of the War, and seized the advantage to dominate global industry and commerce for the next two decades or so. As classified records have become public in recent times, we have learned that the Truman Administration used the CIA covertly to support revolutionary groups within England's African colonies....a very risky maneuver coming at a time when the U.S. needed England as a crucial ally to face off with against the Soviet Union!

But, if we delve just a little further into the details, we have to consider the only effective international agencies (World Bank, IMF, and the WTO), which are also still U.S.-dominated, as the bureaucracies that run the modern global empire...which work hand-in-hand with the "stick" - U.S. military forces and CIA, and more recently since the rise of Blackwater - mercenary forces that can be sent in to do the dirty work without being tallied as official U.S. forces.

So, the U.S. has done more than become what "Europe made," since the intentions of the Founding Fathers clearly tried to establish a federal government that could NOT become an empire...either overtly like the European powers, or covertly, as a succession of U.S. administrations have created since WWII. *

*this was something Eisenhower warned about in his farewell address as President with the controversial phrase "Military Industrial Complex." Ike had spent the 8 years of his presidency pushing back against mostly Democratic-run Congresses that were continually fanning the flames of the Red Scare to get money for new military toys, and advocating foreign interventions. Because Eisenhower was the former Commander of Allied Forces in Europe during the War, he had an unassailable position that limited criticism from war hawks and military contractors. JFK...who ran as a red-baiting candidate to defeat Richard Nixon in 1960 (let's not forget that) had some credibility as a military man - wounded in action in the Pacific...not to mention being one of a tiny group of kids from rich families who saw active combat...Kennedy followed the direction of his advisers early in his presidency until he left the reservation during the Cuban Missile Crisis and Bay of Pigs fiasco...he may have intended to act against the military complex as portrayed by Oliver Stone and other conspiracy theorists, but most of the evidence is based on heresay and conjecture...nuff said.

So, where are we now?

My personal assessment of the United States in the 21st century is that of a crumbling empire that is the most dangerous force acting in the world today:

The U.S. is only able to maintain it's control of international currency and trade through the use or threat of use of military force.....if I have time, I might get into how this grossly misreported Ukrainian Civil War shows clear indicators as being one more example of U.S. foreign policy at work trying to destabilize outlier nations like Russia....the 5 billion in "aid" delivered through U.S. NGO's...much of which financed Orange Revolution pro-western/anti-Russian extremists. That aside, there are numerous examples in the world where the U.S. goes after any and every nation which seeks to step outside of using the U.S. Dollar for international trade because of continually increasing debt-financing.

It has become a closed circle - where the military complex is only afforded by more debt/and bankruptcy and collapse of the Dollar can only be staved off by use or threat of use of the military!

More than a few historians have noted that past failed empires had many voices warning about spiraling debt and military overreach but were unable to change course until their empires disintegrated. A similar thing happened to the Roman Empire (which also did not begin as an empire, but as a republic) when Rome reached a period of time when affording the luxury and extravagance of Rome...including a few handouts for the poor like free bread...could only be payed for by attacking and conquering more neighbours and turning them into colonies to plunder their gold, resources, and take some of them back as slave labour. It would be a mistake to believe that Rome failed because they were trying to conquer to world. They did have their own view of Manifest Destiny and sense of superiority over everyone else, but a number of emperors were pragmatic enough to realize that the Empire was already overstretched, and maintained peace for awhile, but were unable to stop the next emperor and his generals from renewing the expansion, because there was so much personal gain to be made if further wars were won....much like today's American Empire!

recovering conservative · Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:22 pm

LarsMac;1458625 wrote: OK, reality check.

All the rhetoric aside, there is not any way, for the moment, that you are going to get 270 million Americans to willingly give up all their guns. It ain't gonna happen, folks. Sorry. The right and wrong of that make great forum fodder, but that is all it is.

So, attacking the real problem behind the homicide rate will go much further in solving the problems than trying to do what is nearly impossible.

I'm thinking of that picture of those hayseeds I responded to in the earlier post, and note once again "The Real America" is all-white! So, is the problem of 270 million gun owners * just being too powerful for the U.S. Federal Government to deal with...like the militia groups at the Cliven Bundy Ranch? Or are we in fact seeing here, a sign that the U.S. Government tacitly permits and even encourages violence and threatening behaviour of certain groups, while brutally suppressing others?

* I don't want to contest that number, but the actual number is likely not even close, because of all the gun nuts who own dozens of firearms.

I only have to look back to see how the non-violent Occupy demonstrations were handled with police violence all across the U.S. in a single night of raids/ while these Teabagger clowns run around threatening people with their guns and get away with it. I think this is a clear sign that a consensus of opinion among the ruling classes (billionaires and fascists in positions of government authority) want to cultivate a potentially risky group of violent militants they perceive as being useful for their own designs. If so, this would be no different than the Black Shirts or Brown Shirts of fascist Germany and Italy pre-WWII. And it would match up with some of the unconfirmed reports today that the billionaire "Chocolate King" who runs the Ukraine today is personally financing groups of irregular non-official military units that are being sent in to Eastern Ukrainian cities, which have been recruited directly from the Pravy Sector, and another fascist group of the Euro-Maidan Movement, whose name escapes me at the moment.

Billionaire oligarchs are a minority....a very small minority of any population. They have to hire lackies and underlings to run their businesses for them, and many of them are willing to spend some money buying influence in government and the media, but they are not willing to hire everybody they need to do their bidding! So, just like the fascists of previous times, they will want their own private armies of thugs and goons to commit the violence on their behalf...many of them acting on their own free will with no financial incentives. What more could a billionaire fascist ask for?

And so we have groups of rural and suburban white militias and teabaggers who claim they are fighting against oppressive government...even though many of them are collecting government benefits themselves...and we are told that we have to be careful not to use too much force against these groups like the militias at the Bundy Ranch! Right now, there is an international scandal brewing as the UN has declared the undemocratic government administration of Detroit is directly violating human rights guarantees signed by the U.S., as they cut off water in poor neighbourhoods of Detroit. If the mostly black residents of the City who can't afford the doubling or tripling of water rates under the new "austerity" government, decided to march on City Hall with their guns in hand, what do you think will happen?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:25 pm

recovering conservative;1458742 wrote: Well, if that's not blame-shifting with a capital B! ..................

So very well-written. My hat's off.

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:42 pm

AnneBoleyn;1458718 wrote: A metaphor.

I'm not saying Europeans don't have the right to try to assuage us, just to remember from whence you, & all humans, came. Onward!

I must have some intermittent dyslexia cos I read that as "I'm not saying Europeans dont have the right to buy sausages ...." Took me a while to make any sense of that

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:54 pm

Snowfire;1458750 wrote: ... I read that as "I'm not saying Europeans dont have the right to buy sausages ...."

We don't really. We're still on the ration card you know. Haven't yet recovered from the food shortage of WW II. It's a slow process that'll take a few decades more.

recovering conservative · Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:59 pm

High Threshold;1458748 wrote: So very well-written. My hat's off.
Thanks, glad you liked it. To be honest, I had no intentions of writing an essay when I started that post...it just sort of started turning over more and more stones as I went along.

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:08 pm

recovering conservative;1458742 wrote: Well, if that's not blame-shifting with a capital B! As a sidenote, notice that there are no blacks or anything other than white hillbillies in that picture?

...Yada yada...

Yep, most Hillbillies are white. In fact, I have yet to meet a Black Hillbilly, or a Hispanic Hillbilly, or an Asian Hillbilly.

So when I went out searching for a picture of hillbillies, I was not, in the least, surprised to find a bunch of white folks.

And where do white folks come from? Yuppers. Europe.

Your reference to the Roman empire is clever, but tell me you don't really believe that America is actually running the show. I mean, if you are right in that, then you should look at that picture again. Because that is America in a nutshell. If you are right, those guys are the Masters of the Universe as we know it.

If that don't scare you, you haven't been paying attention.

recovering conservative;1458747 wrote: I'm thinking of that picture of those hayseeds I responded to in the earlier post, and note once again "The Real America" is all-white! So, is the problem of 270 million gun owners * just being too powerful for the U.S. Federal Government to deal with...like the militia groups at the Cliven Bundy Ranch? Or are we in fact seeing here, a sign that the U.S. Government tacitly permits and even encourages violence and threatening behaviour of certain groups, while brutally suppressing others?

* I don't want to contest that number, but the actual number is likely not even close, because of all the gun nuts who own dozens of firearms.

I only have to look back to see how the non-violent Occupy demonstrations were handled with police violence all across the U.S. in a single night of raids/ while these Teabagger clowns run around threatening people with their guns and get away with it. I think this is a clear sign that a consensus of opinion among the ruling classes (billionaires and fascists in positions of government authority) want to cultivate a potentially risky group of violent militants they perceive as being useful for their own designs. If so, this would be no different than the Black Shirts or Brown Shirts of fascist Germany and Italy pre-WWII. And it would match up with some of the unconfirmed reports today that the billionaire "Chocolate King" who runs the Ukraine today is personally financing groups of irregular non-official military units that are being sent in to Eastern Ukrainian cities, which have been recruited directly from the Pravy Sector, and another fascist group of the Euro-Maidan Movement, whose name escapes me at the moment.

Billionaire oligarchs are a minority....a very small minority of any population. They have to hire lackies and underlings to run their businesses for them, and many of them are willing to spend some money buying influence in government and the media, but they are not willing to hire everybody they need to do their bidding! So, just like the fascists of previous times, they will want their own private armies of thugs and goons to commit the violence on their behalf...many of them acting on their own free will with no financial incentives. What more could a billionaire fascist ask for?

And so we have groups of rural and suburban white militias and teabaggers who claim they are fighting against oppressive government...even though many of them are collecting government benefits themselves...and we are told that we have to be careful not to use too much force against these groups like the militias at the Bundy Ranch! Right now, there is an international scandal brewing as the UN has declared the undemocratic government administration of Detroit is directly violating human rights guarantees signed by the U.S., as they cut off water in poor neighbourhoods of Detroit. If the mostly black residents of the City who can't afford the doubling or tripling of water rates under the new "austerity" government, decided to march on City Hall with their guns in hand, what do you think will happen?

You're beginning to catch on.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:24 pm

recovering conservative;1458753 wrote: Thanks, glad you liked it.

Like it? I'm awe-struck.

recovering conservative;1458753 wrote: To be honest, I had no intentions of writing an essay when I started that post...it just sort of started turning over more and more stones as I went along.

Don't worry, you turned over enough to make your case.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:54 pm

Snowfire;1458750 wrote: I must have some intermittent dyslexia cos I read that as "I'm not saying Europeans dont have the right to buy sausages ...." Took me a while to make any sense of that

I meant another word, but I couldn't think of it, so I wrote that. I give you permission to eat sausages. It was more in the way of....................naw, that don't work either. I had a senior moment, okay?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:56 pm

High Threshold;1458748 wrote: So very well-written. My hat's off.

I know! This RC is really something else! & it's very intelligent & well thought out. I love this guy!

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:16 pm

AnneBoleyn;1458765 wrote: I know! This RC is really something else! & it's very intelligent & well thought out. I love this guy!

So it is true......the rumour I heard........that Canadians are Americans but with brains.

(It's a joke)

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:19 pm

Canadians are Americans with good manners.

eta--I was married to a Canadian. He was very smart. Of course.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:24 pm

AnneBoleyn;1458769 wrote: Canadians are Americans with good manners.

eta--I was married to a Canadian. He was very smart. Of course.

But you would say that.....He chose you.

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:33 pm

Bruv;1458768 wrote: So it is true......the rumour I heard........that Canadians are Americans but with brains.

(It's a joke)

I don't know that they are smarter, but they do pay better attention in class.

And they are definitely more polite, usually.

"I don't need your help to look like a fool. I'm an American" - Overheard last week at a Portland Bar.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:29 pm

AnneBoleyn;1458718 wrote: A metaphor.

I'm not saying Europeans don't have the right to try to assuage us ....

AnneBoleyn;1458764 wrote: I meant another word, but I couldn't think of it, so I wrote that.

Critisize, pester, harass, bother, plague, torment, hound, nag, chivvy, harry, badger, preach, lecture, rag, dis, whup, kibbitz?

:):)

recovering conservative · Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:59 am

LarsMac;1458755 wrote: Yep, most Hillbillies are white. In fact, I have yet to meet a Black Hillbilly, or a Hispanic Hillbilly, or an Asian Hillbilly.

So when I went out searching for a picture of hillbillies, I was not, in the least, surprised to find a bunch of white folks.

And where do white folks come from? Yuppers. Europe.

Your reference to the Roman empire is clever, but tell me you don't really believe that America is actually running the show. I mean, if you are right in that, then you should look at that picture again. Because that is America in a nutshell. If you are right, those guys are the Masters of the Universe as we know it.

If that don't scare you, you haven't been paying attention.

I suppose they need a little work before they can get into shape to become the fascist army in this picture....taken somewhere in Ukraine...likely Kiev, since it's probably prior to sending right sector brigades into Eastern Ukrainian cities:

This reminds me that one of the unexpected snags that have hampered Neocon dreams of having American troops fighting anywhere and everywhere over the last 12 years, is that even young, new recruits have been coming into bootcamp overweight and way out of shape; so that during the busy days of the Iraq Occupation, U.S. Forces were subjecting National Guard units to multiple tours, pulling troops away from Afghanistan to add to troop levels in Iraq, and they were lowering the bar for recruiting standards on aptitude tests, criminal records...even taking in illegal immigrants and promising them citizenship....provided they survived of course. I've heard it said by some military analysts that having the bottom fall out of the economy by 2008 was the only thing that saved the Iraq Campaign. Nothing like deprivation and the closing off of better options to improve recruiting success!

Keeping health & fitness in perspective though, these are only minor concerns in an age of robot warfare (you don't have to be in shape to play on a videogame console), and let's not forget that the U.S. still has thousands of nuclear warheads. After growing up being reminded of MAD on an almost constant basis, it baffles me how neither news media, nor pop culture make any references to the prospects of nuclear war anymore....even though the risk of nuclear war hasn't been this great since the Cuban Missile Crisis a half century ago! And, this is veering off the topic, but the post-Cold War strategy of encircling and breaking up the former Soviet Union (including breaking away Russian autonomous territories) is hard to fathom because of the obvious risks involved.

It wasn't until hostilities started to break out in Ukraine a couple of months back that I discovered that the top U.S. policy makers (Dem and Repub) do not believe MAD is valid anymore; but instead are floating the notion of Nuclear Primacy. The CFR mouthpiece - Foreign Affairs, apparently published an article (behind paywall) 8 years ago in 2006, claiming nuclear primacy means that the U.S. can realistically make a first strike and take out all or nearly all of Russia's nuclear weaponry:

This debate may now seem like ancient history, but it is actually more relevant than ever -- because the age of MAD is nearing an end. Today, for the first time in almost 50 years, the United States stands on the verge of attaining nuclear primacy. It will probably soon be possible for the United States to destroy the long-range nuclear arsenals of Russia or China with a first strike. This dramatic shift in the nuclear balance of power stems from a series of improvements in the United States' nuclear systems, the precipitous decline of Russia's arsenal, and the glacial pace of modernization of China's nuclear forces. Unless Washington's policies change or Moscow and Beijing take steps to increase the size and readiness of their forces, Russia and China -- and the rest of the world -- will live in the shadow of U.S. nuclear primacy for many years to come.

the rest is behind a paywall, as this article wasn't intended for average readers, but obviously to drum up support for launching a nuclear war against Russia and China! Considering that this policy think tank advocated for an Iraq Invasion and claimed a process of "regime change" would spread throughout the Middle East and the Muslim World afterwards, what could go wrong, right?

Since there's much more to be said about this policy of Nuclear Primacy, I'm going to start a new thread on that topic and hope that it gains wider attention....it should! Here I thought that the only existential threat of extinction we faced was from destroying our environment, and then I discover that we still are lurking under the nuclear shadow, which is closing in and threatening more today than ever.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:15 pm

AnneBoleyn;1458706 wrote: I just meant you guys should get off that high morality horse you're riding.

Yes. We should learn from "you guys" in the U.S. on how not to invade nations on fabricated lies and charge in mounted on high morality horses exclaiming "True Democracy on the way!" packed very neatly in a picnique basket, covered with a red & white-checkered cloth straight from the White House and Pentagram.

Yes, there is so much "you guys" can teach us.

recovering conservative · Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:31 pm

AnneBoleyn;1458764 wrote: I meant another word, but I couldn't think of it, so I wrote that. I give you permission to eat sausages. It was more in the way of....................naw, that don't work either. I had a senior moment, okay?

Now you're making me blush! Where are those emoticons when you need them?

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:53 pm

High Threshold;1458845 wrote: Yes. We should learn from "you guys" in the U.S. on how not to invade nations on fabricated lies and charge in mounted on high morality horses exclaiming "True Democracy on the way!" packed very neatly in a picnique basket, covered with a red & white-checkered cloth straight from the White House and Pentagram.

Yes, there is so much "you guys" can teach us.

Oh we learned all that from the Homeland.

Don't worry, in the next election the Isolationists will win out, here, and we will just sit idly by and watch y'all deal with the invasion of the Caliphate.

Good luck with that.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:30 pm

LarsMac;1458863 wrote: Oh we learned all that from the Homeland.

Don't worry, in the next election the Isolationists will win out, here, and we will just sit idly by and watch y'all deal with the invasion of the Caliphate.

Good luck with that.

I know this reply will sound like a "Blame the Yanks again!" response but ..... well, if Moslems feel that banding together to get anywhere at all is the only choice they have then who ..... oh-oh .... do you think we have to blame for it? I mean, other than balking at letting Turkey into the EU (which I assume is "our" own fault/mistake) who is invading, carrying out covert operations and financing government take-overs in the middle east? Your hypothetical question is compounded by the question of if or not it's too late. If the U.S. does stick its nose back into its own underwear and "sit idly by" will the momentum by anti-western groups cancel this Caliphate plan of yours?

But then this example is getting to be old hat. You busted up Irak's infrastructure, allowed its historical heritage be plundered beyond recognition, commandeered its natural oil resource in order to re-install the petrol dollar, trained and financed death squads to perpetuate a civil war indefinitely and then play the "idle role", pointing to the country saying, "See! We told you the place couldn't handle Democracy!"

You did it in Cuba, You did it in Iran.

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:19 pm

High Threshold;1458871 wrote: I know this reply will sound like a "Blame the Yanks again!" response but ..... well, if Moslems feel that banding together to get anywhere at all is the only choice they have then who ..... oh-oh .... do you think we have to blame for it? I mean, other than balking at letting Turkey into the EU (which I assume is "our" own fault/mistake) who is invading, carrying out covert operations and financing government take-overs in the middle east? Your hypothetical question is compounded by the question of if or not it's too late. If the U.S. does stick its nose back into its own underwear and "sit idly by" will the momentum by anti-western groups cancel this Caliphate plan of yours?

But then this example is getting to be old hat. You busted up Irak's infrastructure, allowed its historical heritage be plundered beyond recognition, commandeered its natural oil resource in order to re-install the petrol dollar, trained and financed death squads to perpetuate a civil war indefinitely and then play the "idle role", pointing to the country saying, "See! We told you the place couldn't handle Democracy!"

You did it in Cuba, You did it in Iran.

OF course we did it all by ourselves.

Only Americans came into the middle east and carved up the lands after WWI and when oil was discovered in the Persian Gulf, only Americans hurried off the suck the oil out of the sands. And only Americans imported poor Auslanders to come and do the menial jobs that the new middle class was too good to do. And only Americans ghettoized the Auslanders a allowed them to form their own enclaves and ignore the local customs of our country.

Sure, We did all of this all by ourselves.

You guys are all just the innocent victims of the machinations of the Evil Empire.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:32 pm

LarsMac;1458873 wrote: OF course we did it all by ourselves.

Only Americans came into the middle east and carved up the lands after WWI and when oil was discovered in the Persian Gulf, only Americans hurried off the suck the oil out of the sands. And only Americans imported poor Auslanders to come and do the menial jobs that the new middle class was too good to do. And only Americans ghettoized the Auslanders a allowed them to form their own enclaves and ignore the local customs of our country.

Sure, We did all of this all by ourselves.

You guys are all just the innocent victims of the machinations of the Evil Empire.

The only thing you forgot was "Na, na, na, na-na!" And it doesn't say much about what you think us Swedes have done and how it might compare to a very long list of American misdeeds, and international war & murder mayhem. Is this going to end up a tit for tat competetion?

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:41 pm

High Threshold;1458916 wrote: The only thing you forgot was "Na, na, na, na-na!" And it doesn't say much about what you think us Swedes have done and how it might compare to a very long list of American misdeeds, and international war & murder mayhem. Is this going to end up a tit for tat competetion?

I really don't think so.

Sure, we have come across as the neighborhood bully, of late. But we are not really smart enough to run the whole rodeo all by our lonesome.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:51 pm

LarsMac;1458917 wrote: ..... we are not really smart enough to run the whole rodeo all by our lonesome.

Funny you put it that way. I'm under the impression that you guys do run the rodeo and ARE smart enough to pull the chut - but have most everyone else ride the bull. :wah:

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:54 pm

Whatever helps you to sleep at night, brother.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:03 pm

Naw. I don't drink anymore and I've never been into drugs much.

recovering conservative · Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:06 pm

LarsMac;1458863 wrote: Oh we learned all that from the Homeland.

Don't worry, in the next election the Isolationists will win out, here, and we will just sit idly by and watch y'all deal with the invasion of the Caliphate.

Good luck with that.

"Invasion of the Caliphate"

And what exactly will the Caliphate be using for this invasion? Will they be launching their ICBM's or sending their aircraft carriers across the Atlantic to carry out the invasion?

The world's 5 largest military spenders in 2013 according

to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute

report: Recent trends in military expenditure

April 2014

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:52 am

recovering conservative;1458933 wrote: "Invasion of the Caliphate"

And what exactly will the Caliphate be using for this invasion?

If you believe the legions of Islamophobes in Washington, given a kick-start by the Bush W. hysteria, we're all going to be herded into forced Moslem conversion centres and brain-washed into submission.

recovering conservative;1458933 wrote: The world's 5 largest military spenders in 2013 according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute report:

Happy to be of service.

Post by **LarsMac** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:52 am

recovering conservative;1458933 wrote: "Invasion of the Caliphate"

And what exactly will the Caliphate be using for this invasion? Will they be launching their ICBM's or sending their aircraft carriers across the Atlantic to carry out the invasion?

The world's 5 largest military spenders in 2013 according

to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute

report: Recent trends in military expenditure

April 2014

Nope. Probably not. As has been proven several times over the last decades, All those big toys are basically useless against a few determined young men with guns and a sense of destiny.

recovering conservative · Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:13 am

Yes, and that certainly explains why the U.S. Government is spending more and more money on those useless big toys!

If Americans were provided any context to the 9-11 attacks...which were seized upon by all of the warhawks, we may have been informed that such attacks are examples of Asymmetrical Warfare; and if you make yourself so overwhelmingly superior to your enemies that they have no means to use military force*, you could in fact be sowing the seeds for unexpected forms of terrorist attacks.

Right now, the so called "counter-insurgency" strategies that have destroyed the capacity of average working people in Central American nations to resist foreign mining operations, being forced off their land by agribusiness operations, and petition for improved wages or get real democratic government, end up with U.S.-sponsored military coups overthrowing the elected governments (look up Manuel Zalaya) and brutally suppressing real democracy.

Unlike the Middle East, the revolutionary movement tradition in Latin America is almost non-existent today, because it is also suppressed by narco gangs who own the streets and work in cooperation with feudal governments. So, what do they do: they can't feed their children under present conditions, so they send them to America by the trainload....which a lot of Americans are crapping about now, and calling it something similar to terrorism. But, what it is, and what every mass migration to get over the Border has been before it, is an attempt to escape the destruction of their economic life under globalization and Neoliberal capitalism.

If the leftist revolutionary movements somehow come back again, maybe they will adopt the asymmetrical terrorism tactics used in the Middle East...who knows! But, like the old saying goes: an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." And right now, the U.S. Government and prevailing wisdom among an ignorant American public, is to apply the "cure" of total oppression, rather than the "prevention" of removing foreign oppression and allowing people autonomy over how they live their lives.

*I'm including here the revolutionary uprising traditions that began with Leon Trotsky and who's last great champion was Che Gueverra

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:54 am

recovering conservative;1459036 wrote: If Americans were provided any context to the 9-11 attacks...which were seized upon by all of the warhawks, we may have been informed that such attacks are examples of Asymmetrical Warfare; and if you make yourself so overwhelmingly superior to your enemies that they have no means to use military force*, you could in fact be sowing the seeds for unexpected forms of terrorist attacks.

I have argued this very point many times, particularly when I hear people say, "Cowards! Why don't they stand up and face us man to man!" Of course, they don't mean a fist fight - their notion of "man to man" means (in their Joan Wayne fantasy) Blackhawk helicopters against a Kalashnikov mounted on the back of a Toyota pick-up truck.

Post by **LarsMac** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:59 am

It ain't over, yet.

People of the world all had it together

Had it together for the boys and the girls

And the children of the world look forward to a future

Remember

Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock people

Time's tickin' away

Remeber that

Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock people

Time's tickin' away
- Stevie Ray Vaughn

Post by **LarsMac** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:49 pm

Back to the original discussion, This just in.

Stuff like this makes my head hurt:

First day of new gun law leads to arrest » Top News » Valdosta Daily Times