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spot;1521737 wrote: He appears to have unilaterally handed the whole of Syria back to the Syrian government this week, purely on a whim. What a guy.


If Obama had done the same they would be building statues of him for bringing home our our sons and daughters.

If Obama; If Obama; If Obama; If Obama; If Obama; If Obama; If Obama; If Obama; If Obama; If Obama; If Obama;

Put on a new record already. What is your point anyway?

AnneBoleyn;1521769 wrote:

Put on a new record already. What is your point anyway?


I think the point is that there's a prejudice in American politics at the moment, instead of a rational appreciation of events. Had President Obama done some of the things President Trump has done he would have been applauded by his Democrat-voting supporters, but those same people refuse to give the same credit to his successor for exactly the same actions. That's just plain irrational prejudice at work. The playing field is not level. Nobody is going to be able to discuss common ground if everyone refuses to accept that common ground exists.

I wrote earlier that the President has ordered the removal of all US military units from Syria and half the remaining contingent from Afghanistan and asked whether we all approved. You didn't answer. Do you approve or do you not?

YZGI;1521768 wrote: If Obama had done the same they would be building statues of him for bringing home our our sons and daughters.That is an orchastrated complaint from Trump about the media, however, it doesn't explain the disagreement from the military/Pentagon and the intelligence agencies.

The Pentagon and intelligence do the actual running of the country with the media as its marketing apparatus, so they work together, or collude (deep state) if you will, and it's been this way for decades. There are very few positives I see in the Trump presidency, but this illumination of the escapades of the military/intelligence/media collusion is the one big one I take from it. And it is a big one. That said, the three are working diligently to reframe and deny the collision in any way possible, to the point that people are too focused on Trump's personality to see it. They work very well together.

I think this resistance would exist no matter who would be in the WH. Wasn't it Eisenhower who warned of this happening?

spot;1521770 wrote: I think the point is that there's a prejudice in American politics at the moment, instead of a rational appreciation of events. Had President Obama done some of the things President Trump has done he would have been applauded by his Democrat-voting supporters, but those same people refuse to give the same credit to his successor for exactly the same actions. That's just plain irrational prejudice at work. The playing field is not level. Nobody is going to be able to discuss common ground if everyone refuses to accept that common ground exists.

I wrote earlier that the President has ordered the removal of all US military units from Syria and half the remaining contingent from Afghanistan and asked whether we all approved. You didn't answer. Do you approve or do you not?The point is that Obama would not have done any withdrawing of troops, and the neoliberals would definately not approve had he done it.

I do approve of any withdrawal of military troops from any venue they are currently a part of.

spot;1521770 wrote:

I wrote earlier that the President has ordered the removal of all US military units from Syria and half the remaining contingent from Afghanistan and asked whether we all approved. You didn't answer. Do you approve or do you not?


I thought I did answer. I do not see the point of being in Syria or Afghanistan. There is no real mission and they are no threat to U.S. I have even read today that the CIA-led forces in Afghanistan have behaved so cruelly toward regular folks that they are joining the Taliban. Who are we to behave cruelly to regular folks? Obvious also is that tactic is undermining the very thing "intended." Who knows what is really intended? It's been 17 years for goodness sake!

I'm a peacenik at heart, spot. Not in all, but certainly in most circumstances.

YZGI;1521768 wrote: If Obama had done the same they would be building statues of him for bringing home our our sons and daughters.


The Donald has not actually done anything, yet. He said we are going to pull troops out of Syria, and some out of Afghanistan. He has said we are going to do a lot of things.

We'll see. I have disliked the guy for several decades, but if he actually gets out troops out of Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria, and maybe even out of the African war zones, I would happily give him praise for it.

I would be even happier if he could disassociate us from the Saudis. Thosebastards have never been our friends, and watching our presidents suck up to them for the last 30-some years turns my stomach.

The Saudis are HIS friends, Lars. Plenty of Trump real estate has been bought up, or laundered, who knows, by the Royals of S.A. I realize the Saudis have gotten away with a lot in all recent administrations but we don't even purchase their oil anymore in significant quantities!

spot, you asked Ted why it's important to 'like' a president. It isn't, it's just that the President sucks up all the air in the room by appearing in all media all the time. Unless a person is only into fiction there is no avoiding the President, no matter who it is. This current one is unbearable to even look at, IMO.

AnneBoleyn;1521775 wrote: This current one is unbearable to even look at, IMO.One of the joys of having no TV is that I doubt whether I've seen Donald Trump speak even ten times ever. Words on paper yes, but no voice, no video. He's entirely avoidable in that sense. I've avoided moving images of Presidents since I started feeling nauseous at any sight or sound of smirking Bush.

Given President Trump is now approaching a quarter way through his terms of office I think we now have enough material to at least look for aspects of his presidency we posters here can agree on. He's 680 days in office, the final 300 days tend to be paralysed by electing a replacement, that only leaves him 2000 days to perform what he's talked up.

spot;1521776 wrote: One of the joys of having no TV is that I doubt whether I've seen Donald Trump speak even ten times ever. Words on paper yes, but no voice, no video. He's entirely avoidable in that sense. I've avoided moving images of Presidents since I started feeling nauseous at any sight or sound of smirking Bush.

Given President Trump is now approaching a quarter way through his terms of office I think we now have enough material to at least look for aspects of his presidency we posters here can agree on. He's 680 days in office, the final 300 days tend to be paralysed by electing a replacement, that only leaves him 2000 days to perform what he's talked up.


Well, I confess to a bit of envy. I've seen far too much of Donald over the last decade or so.

It is an experience you should try at least once.

I recommend that you find the video of his speech to the UN.

A work of Art.

Syria was a mess that America (and the UK) shouldn't have got involved in in the first place. It was a 3 way Civil War. Normally there is the rule of "The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend", but when Assad (Friend, but also backed by the Russians - Enemy?) is fighting Isis (Enemy). But the Democratic Rebels (Friend) are also fighting Assad (Friend), who the hell are you supposed to support. Best to stay out of it altogether & let things sort themselves out.

As for Humanitarianism - it's a sad fact, but war is dirty. It's meant to be dirty. That's why countries try to avoid it. The problem is that it's made too clinical. That's why wars now last so long. And you can't hope to win a war when one side plays by some sort of rule book and the other doesn't.

FourPart;1521778 wrote: Syria was a mess that America (and the UK) shouldn't have got involved in in the first place. It was a 3 way Civil War. Normally there is the rule of "The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend", but when Assad (Friend, but also backed by the Russians - Enemy?) is fighting Isis (Enemy). But the Democratic Rebels (Friend) are also fighting Assad (Friend), who the hell are you supposed to support. Best to stay out of it altogether & let things sort themselves out.

As for Humanitarianism - it's a sad fact, but war is dirty. It's meant to be dirty. That's why countries try to avoid it. The problem is that it's made too clinical. That's why wars now last so long. And you can't hope to win a war when one side plays by some sort of rule book and the other doesn't.


It's all very well calling it a civil war but the non-government side, the rebel side, the side fighting the Syrian armed forces, were financed. Without the finance they couldn't have fought. Without the finance there would have been no civil war in Syria.

And who paid for this destabilization? America, predominantly. The funding that brought the Syrian War into existence was American-led, the thinking was American, the driver was America, and it was all pre-Trump. The Syrian War was an Obama Administration project.

The Syrian opposition, politically represented by the Syrian National Coalition, receives financial, logistical, political and in some cases military support from major Sunni states in the Middle East allied with the U.S., most notably Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Turkey. From early stages of the civil conflict in Syria, major Western countries such as the U.S, France, and the UK provide political, military and logistic support to the opposition as well as rebel groups in Syria that are not designated by them as terrorist.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_i ... _Civil_War

I'm betting Trump resigns within the next six months. I'm saying six months because I think Pence would want to be president for at least that long going into the 2020 election cycle. I think that will be the chip for a Trump pardon.

Hope you are right Ahso. Pence is way easier to beat in 2020. 6 months to not see Trump as President? I have the patience to wait 6 months.

Speaking for nobody but myself - my life in a nutshell - I'd rather see Lucifer incarnate rise from the boiling depths of hell complete with tuxedo, red face and cloven hoofs, taking the US Presidency rather than Mike Pence. For one thing Lucifer was never a lawyer, and for another I'll go bail he'd have more compassion for the common people than Mr Pence can be expected to display.

spot;1521782 wrote: Speaking for nobody but myself - my life in a nutshell - I'd rather see Lucifer incarnate rise from the boiling depths of hell complete with tuxedo, red face and cloven hoofs, taking the US Presidency rather than Mike Pence. For one thing Lucifer was never a lawyer, and for another I'll go bail he'd have more compassion for the common people than Mr Pence can be expected to display.


I can't argue with that.

Mike Pence is the only argument I can come up with for keeping The Donald in office.

spot;1521766 wrote: I expect supporters of the Syrian government say much the same about the Syrian police force, don't you?

Who you cheer for all depends on where you live. It's tribalism. It's primitive. It's sick-making.


Our police do not use poison gas.

Dozens killed in apparent chemical weapons attack on civilians in Syria, rescue workers say

White Helmets (Syrian Civil War)

It is not cheering to reject baseless accusations.

spot;1521752 wrote: Though of course when it's the American police doing it to Americans, it's called lawful deaths. Is that the expression?

I hope you'll not try to dispute the "thousands", either.


There is help on the way.

Wichita Convenience Store Shooting Shows the Importance of Stand Your Ground Laws

“A customer was in line when four individuals came in at gunpoint and demanded money, he said. “The citizen also got robbed and the citizen pulled a gun and shot at the suspects.

Several shots were reportedly fired, but it is unknown whether the suspects returned fire, police said.

At least one of the suspects was shot and was still at the crime scene when officers arrived. He was taken to a hospital in critical condition after he was shot once in the head, Halloran said.


The criminal died. This happens all across the country. Just not much news on it.

Ahso!;1521780 wrote: I'm betting Trump resigns within the next six months. I'm saying six months because I think Pence would want to be president for at least that long going into the 2020 election cycle. I think that will be the chip for a Trump pardon.


I'll take that bet. So you're saying by July 1.1919? I'll give you a break, the first week, by July 4th.

Actually, I would consider a bet that he never resigns.

tude dog;1521784 wrote: Our police do not use poison gas.

Dozens killed in apparent chemical weapons attack on civilians in Syria, rescue workers say

White Helmets (Syrian Civil War)

It is not cheering to reject baseless accusations.


Okay, I went through both the links from end to end.

Neither makes any reference anywhere to the Syrian police. How are either of the articles relevant to "Our police do not use poison gas"?

spot;1521787 wrote: Okay, I went through both the links from end to end.

Neither makes any reference anywhere to the Syrian police. How are either of the articles relevant to "Our police do not use poison gas"?


Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post

All things considered if not for the professionalism and restaurant exercised by the police the number of perp deaths would be much higher.

I expect supporters of the Syrian government say much the same about the Syrian police force, don't you?

Who you cheer for all depends on where you live. It's tribalism. It's primitive. It's sick-making.

tude dog;1521788 wrote: Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post

All things considered if not for the professionalism and restaurant exercised by the police the number of perp deaths would be much higher.

I expect supporters of the Syrian government say much the same about the Syrian police force, don't you?

Who you cheer for all depends on where you live. It's tribalism. It's primitive. It's sick-making.




I can't tell what you regard as a baseless accusation, perhaps you could be more explicit.

The Syrian police have never gassed anyone as far as I know - do you know of any instance?

[QUOTE=spot;1521789]I can't tell what you regard as a baseless accusation, perhaps you could be more explicit.

Good enough.

I'd say the context is professionalism. A professional police force would make it a matter of honor that they killed fewer people than the losses they suffered themselves. That would be a mark of genuine service to the community. It baffles me that this isn't obvious to everyone.


You stated an opinion which I did not agree.

spot;1521789 wrote: The Syrian police have never gassed anyone as far as I know - do you know of any instance?


I didn't bring up the Syrian police, you did.

expect supporters of the Syrian government say much the same about the Syrian police force, don't you?

tude dog;1521794 wrote: I didn't bring up the Syrian police, you did.


Indeed I did, but you appear to have accused them of gassing people. I have no idea why.

What I said was that when it's American police killing thousands of citizens it's okay by you, but when it's Syrian police killing thousands of citizens it's damnable. I found that prejudiced.

Furthermore the alleged attack on Douma was proven to have been a staged hoax by the White Helmets. The 'victims' had no idea what was going on, only that a group of strangers came into town & videoed themselves spraying water over them. The UN confirmed that there was absolutely no trace of any chemical attack. Yet this FaceBook video was enough to trigger a full out air strike (from which Philip May benefited in no small amount, being the primary shareholder of BAE Systems, who made the bombs used).

spot;1521795 wrote: Indeed I did, but you appear to have accused them of gassing people. I have no idea why.

What I said was that when it's American police killing thousands of citizens it's okay by you, but when it's Syrian police killing thousands of citizens it's damnable. I found that prejudiced.


Killing is never just OK, but then, it may not only be justifiable.

tude dog;1521798 wrote: Killing is never just OK


You were glorifying the US police a few posts back for achieving their kills! The inconsistency is astounding.

spot;1521782 wrote: Speaking for nobody but myself - my life in a nutshell - I'd rather see Lucifer incarnate rise from the boiling depths of hell complete with tuxedo, red face and cloven hoofs, taking the US Presidency rather than Mike Pence. For one thing Lucifer was never a lawyer, and for another I'll go bail he'd have more compassion for the common people than Mr Pence can be expected to display.


Pence does not appeal to the masses. He has no personality, no cult following like Trump. No (barf) charisma, if you can call it that. He'd be easy to beat. I agree with you that he is what you say he is, or who you compare him to, BUT.......He'd be easy to beat.

AnneBoleyn;1521801 wrote: Pence does not appeal to the masses. He has no personality, no cult following like Trump. No (barf) charisma, if you can call it that. He'd be easy to beat. I agree with you that he is what you say he is, or who you compare him to, BUT.......He'd be easy to beat.


Yup. I agree. Hence the only way he will get in the Chair is for Trump to Vacate it.

And that is why I oppose giving him such an opportunity.

He is in cahoots with the likes of Falwell, and those clowns.

Trump has to be looking at what happened to Manafort and thinking if there is any doubt whatsoever about winning in 2020 that his fate is similar to Manafort's. He'll lose everything and do time.

The problem Trump has is that any deal he makes is going to have to include the states that are investigating his and his family members activities over that past few decades. Pence would surely want to agree to a pardon for federal crimes, but bringing the states on board would be a huge undertaking. Trump has made lots of enemies at the state level.

I think Pence is the main reason Trump hasn't been assassinated yet. The powers that be that organise such assassinations know full well that in the event of Trump's demise, Pence would become President by default. At the moment he only has the luxury of being President by Proxy. He's the one who's really pulling the strings. Trump is just doing what Pence tells him. The difference is that Trump actually believes everything is his own idea. He doesn't even realise how he's being manipulated.

spot;1521782 wrote: Speaking for nobody but myself - my life in a nutshell - I'd rather see Lucifer incarnate rise from the boiling depths of hell complete with tuxedo, red face and cloven hoofs, taking the US Presidency rather than Mike Pence. For one thing Lucifer was never a lawyer, and for another I'll go bail he'd have more compassion for the common people than Mr Pence can be expected to display. Pence is definitely a dangerous guy, imo also. A Pence presidency congers up visions of A Handmaid's Tale. But I think military and intelligence people (deep state) believe he's more predictable than Trump and can be controlled.

ETA: Pence can't be any more of a headache for them than Trump is,

Pence = Handmaid's Tale?

Excellent analogy Ahso!

FourPart;1521804 wrote: I think Pence is the main reason Trump hasn't been assassinated yet. The powers that be that organise such assassinations know full well that in the event of Trump's demise, Pence would become President by default. At the moment he only has the luxury of being President by Proxy. He's the one who's really pulling the strings. Trump is just doing what Pence tells him. The difference is that Trump actually believes everything is his own idea. He doesn't even realise how he's being manipulated.


"Trump is just doing what Pence tells him."

Spoken in a vacuum, FourPart. You've said this before and I told you it was utter nonsense. I will repeat that again. Where, oh where, do you get this from?

spot;1521799 wrote: You were glorifying the US police a few posts back for achieving their kills! The inconsistency is astounding.


Uh,

All things considered if not for the professionalism and restaurant exercised by the police the number of perp deaths would be much higher.

tude dog;1521813 wrote: Uh,


You're quite right, I had misunderstood the term "Honor Roll" to mean those police officers who had killed someone during the year. On opening the link it appears to say that 60 officers were deliberately killed in the line of duty across the entire country last year, along with eight dogs. I reckon that's a damn sight safer than being a shop assistant, but I'm only guessing.

AnneBoleyn;1521811 wrote: "Trump is just doing what Pence tells him."

Spoken in a vacuum, FourPart. You've said this before and I told you it was utter nonsense. I will repeat that again. Where, oh where, do you get this from?


Basically because Trump doesn't have the intelligence to come up with those ideas on his own.

I tend to think of the Presidential assassins and mass shooters (who aren't kids) as far right gun totin' types. Trump's supporters, in other words. US left wingers and liberals are generally against that sort of thing so I'm only aware of one mass killer who went after a far right rally. I reckon Trump's pretty safe.



Though if someone could come up with a really good poo cannon he might be less so.



I don't think he's completely stupid either. More and more I think of him as a Mob Boss. He has a low cunning and complete shamelessness and the loyalty of a reservoir dog. I did smile when Pence's Chief of Staff turned down the chance to work for him. Spoke volumes.

Clodhopper, great assessment, IMO

Clodhopper;1521824 wrote: I tend to think of the Presidential assassins and mass shooters (who aren't kids) as far right gun totin' types.


What is a gun totin' types?

Clodhopper;1521824 wrote: Trump's supporters, in other words.


That is quite a slander.

Clodhopper;1521824 wrote: US left wingers and liberals are generally against that sort of thing


Of the four presidents, assassinated one was in my life time, by a Communist.

Clodhopper;1521824 wrote: so I'm only aware of one mass killer who went after a far right rally. I reckon Trump's pretty safe.



Though if someone could come up with a really good poo cannon he might be less so.



I don't think he's completely stupid either. More and more I think of him as a Mob Boss. He has a low cunning and complete shamelessness and the loyalty of a reservoir dog. I did smile when Pence's Chief of Staff turned down the chance to work for him. Spoke volumes.


List of United States presidential assassination attempts and plots

The issue with Trump is not what he does but the lack of thought and substance that goes along with it.

If he says he's pulling troops out of Syria, his promise is about as worthless as a degree from Trump University. Did he even think this through? Or consult anyone? The adult in the room was named "Mad Dog" ... and he quit in protest.

Trump is a goldmine of comedy material.

The wall is a great symbol of Trump's presidency. He makes a series of wild, poorly thought out statements. Like saying that Mexico was going to pay for it. Are they? That makes me laugh. When it's all said and done, there's no wall. Now he's saying the government may be shut down for possibly years. Years! Or he talks about declaring a national emergency to complete "the final sections of the wall." As if it's nearly complete. What has he actually accomplished?



Aside from rubber-stamping a corporate tax plan and picking supreme court nominees (on a list handed to him) he's not really done much. He's all talk, and 200% B.S.

tude: What is a gun totin' types?

Someone who habitually carries a gun. More facetiously, look at yaaarg's picture (they don't have to be far right eg might just need a gun for work but the stereotype has them that way).

t: That is quite a slander.

Well, the Republican Party (to their eternal shame) the KKK and the NRA support Trump, I believe? So that's far right and gun totin' covered. If you support social medicine, are anti nuke and favour gun control you aren't likely to belong to the NRA or the KKK and probably vote Democrat... Though there are always exceptions. Generally I think I've made a fair statement.

t: Of the four presidents, assassinated one was in my life time, by a Communist.

Kennedy? If Oswald really was a communist, well, they are as bad as the far right (at least they are as they turn out, not as they intend. Communism is a lovely idea in theory. It's the practice that sucks) and once you are out at the extremes about the biggest difference between Communism and Fascism is the Fascists have designer uniforms.

Anyway, I go with the theory the Mob were behind the Kennedy assassination(s). Far right gun totin' types.

yaaarrgggh: The trouble with Trump and Brexit is that neither is all talk. Both are having negative effects in the real world. I think that we are in worse trouble than you are but you are having a much worse effect on the world and the future - climate change alone does that. Add the increasing isolationism and you'll be sat there with a huge military at home, in a Chinese dominated world with rising sea levels, many more extreme climate events like hurricanes, wildfires and famine and increasing chaos and desperation globally.

Clodhopper;1521844 wrote: tude: What is a gun totin' types?

Someone who habitually carries a gun. More facetiously, look at yaaarg's picture (they don't have to be far right eg might just need a gun for work but the stereotype has them that way).


Thanks for confirming what I thought you were saying.

Clodhopper;1521844 wrote: t: That is quite a slander.

Well, the Republican Party (to their eternal shame) the KKK and the NRA support Trump, I believe? So that's far right and gun totin' covered. If you support social medicine, are anti nuke and favour gun control you aren't likely to belong to the NRA or the KKK and probably vote Democrat... Though there are always exceptions. Generally I think I've made a fair statement.




Clodhopper;1521844 wrote: t: Of the four presidents, assassinated one was in my life time, by a Communist.

Kennedy? If Oswald really was a communist, well, they are as bad as the far right (at least they are as they turn out, not as they intend. Communism is a lovely idea in theory. It's the practice that sucks) and once you are out at the extremes about the biggest difference between Communism and Fascism is the Fascists have designer uniforms.

Anyway, I go with the theory the Mob were behind the Kennedy assassination(s). Far right gun totin' types.


At least you're honest.

(On a minor related point, a silly issue I have is a difficulty responding at all, let alone graciously, to compliments. It's particularly silly because I like getting them of course! So before I go from bad to worse, thank you Anne for your kind words.

Make of it what you will. I dunno why it interests me as if there is something to make of it.

The words Trump used in his State of the

Union that had never been used before

tude dog;1522313 wrote: Make of it what you will. I dunno why it interests me as if there is something to make of it.

The words Trump used in his State of the

Union that had never been used before


that's extremely interesting.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 4P_6L0VA1k “Our goal is to move these Americans from dependence to independence, and into a good-paying job and rewarding career. yet He refuses to raise the minimum wage .....so where is the good paying jobs? What's his definition of a rewarding career?

I do not put any faith in that drip. Probably will run again and those who voted him in the first time will likely do so a second time.