God-Damned America

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:45 am

Saint_;1457540 wrote: Yet they were able to pull it off in both Australia and Japan. Basically, they phased guns out over a period of a half century by making it harder and harder to purchase guns and ammunition. I'm all for that.

I'm no expert on Australia gun laws except they can still buy guns.

Australian firearm laws

Do these laws do any good? I have read claims one way and another but nothing I would hang my hat on. One thing I do know is that there is plenty of crime in Australia.

My understanding is Japan is relatively crime free, or that is at least my perception. If tomorrow Japanese were allowed the own firearms, would that alone create crime?

I pointed out that in the U.S. a lot more people use guns to commit suicide [12,664 murders in 2011/ 2010 19,392 suicides] than murders.

Japan with a population of some 126 million people vs ours of some 300 million had cause to celebrate (I suppose)

Suicide rate in decline

In 2012, 27,766 people killed themselves — a decrease of 2,885 or 9.4 percent from 2011 and falling to a level below 30,000 for the first time since 1997. From 1978, when the police started taking statistics on suicides, to 1997, the number of suicides was annually between 20,000 and 25,000. It topped 30,000 for the first time in 1998.

Japan Times

If Japanese were allowed to own guns, would that by itself result in more suicides? Would it matter as the Japanese are pretty adept at killing themselves without guns?

A Land Without Guns: How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths - Max Fisher - The Atlantic

To get a gun in Japan, first, you have to attend an all-day class and pass a written test, which are held only once per month. You also must take and pass a shooting range class. Then, head over to a hospital for a mental test and drug test (Japan is unusual in that potential gun owners must affirmatively prove their mental fitness), which you'll file with the police. Finally, pass a rigorous background check for any criminal record or association with criminal or extremist groups, and you will be the proud new owner of your shotgun or air rifle. Just don't forget to provide police with documentation on the specific location of the gun in your home, as well as the ammo, both of which must be locked and stored separately. And remember to have the police inspect the gun once per year and to re-take the class and exam every three years.

Wow So instead of firearms we could look out for that axe.

Let us not forget that for all practical purposes it is near impossible to legally own a gun in Chicago where gun murders are most rampant.

With all that said, I am gratified to report that in this country the trend towards reclaiming our Constitutional Right to bear arms is on the upswing.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:54 am

I'm kinda of 2 minds about this. I have a 7 year old child so of course I worry. We've had a terrible time with the security this year at his school. It was so easy to go into that school you could just go in and walk around anywhere. Then after the Sandy Hook shooting they did at least start locking the door but they still left the gate open that led to the play ground. One mother even staged a fake kidnapping of her daughter to prove how bad it was, she got her brother from out of town to try and get into the school and leave with her daughter and he managed to do it. That really stirred up a mess. From what I've seen there just isn't enough security at schools. As for guns I have 3, I've taken the training course and have a concealed weapon permit but I live out in the sticks as the saying goes I'm out in the field in the middle of nowhere sometimes and our sheriff's department is 30 minutes away. We also have a wildlife threat I had a coyote run across the road in front of my car the other day. I have a right to protect my livestock. As for taking away the guns my thought about that is, the criminals aren't going to give there's up so basically we will be unable to protect ourselves and the bad guys will have all the guns.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:40 am

Hope6;1457590 wrote: ...... One mother even staged a fake kidnapping of her daughter to prove how bad it was, she got her brother from out of town to try and get into the school and leave with her daughter and he managed to do it. That really stirred up a mess.

That's bad news. Did the brother stand charges? Did the teachers? In any case, armed teachers and children wouldn't have prevented a thing and it proves that a lack of guns are not your problem. Why hell, you've got 3 of them and the kidnapp went smoothly anyway!

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:02 am

tude dog;1457523 wrote: You throw a temper tantrum, come back and expect to be taken seriously.

What exactly is the definition of a "temper tantrum" in Disneyland, anyway? Questioning someone's source of information?

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:32 am

ummmm.... I don't carry my gun with me to school, I didn't even see the whole thing happen. I don't think armed teachers are the answer I think better security in the way of locking the schools up better where in and everybody can't get in. I mean at our local high school I can just walk in anytime no one is at the door, there's just a sign saying visiters please report to the office. As for the mother, her brother got the child out into the parking lot where she was waiting, when the staff did come out looking for the child she went up to them and said y'all failed. anyway she was arrested for disturbing the peace and at her trial the judge told her she was wrong and she should have known better, but he didn't do anything with her. As for the brother he will be arrested if the catch him back in the county. As for the school one of the office staff took an early retirement because of it.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:34 am

I also want to say, I'm sorry to hear of your loss.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:04 am

Hope6;1457601 wrote: ummmm.... I don't carry my gun with me to school, I didn't even see the whole thing happen. I don't think armed teachers are the answer I think better security in the way of locking the schools up better where in and everybody can't get in. I mean at our local high school I can just walk in anytime no one is at the door, there's just a sign saying visiters please report to the office. As for the mother, her brother got the child out into the parking lot where she was waiting, when the staff did come out looking for the child she went up to them and said y'all failed. anyway she was arrested for disturbing the peace and at her trial the judge told her she was wrong and she should have known better, but he didn't do anything with her. As for the brother he will be arrested if the catch him back in the county. As for the school one of the office staff took an early retirement because of it.

So the outcome was bitter-sweet.

I don't know, it seems to me that security at the crèche and kindergarten ought to be from the inside-out, not the outside-in. Well, let's say at least as regimented in preventing small children from getter loose, as for someone (who doesn't belong) getting in. But primary schools - and above - shouldn't need to be guarded by an armed force. But there's lots of room for debate on that, I know.

Hope6;1457601 wrote: I also want to say, I'm sorry to hear of your loss.

Thank you.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:35 am

Actually I found out later that he tried to get in 3 times and the staff wouldn't let him in. How he finally got in was he followed in another group of parents who were coming in and he just kinda went along with the crowd. The whole thing has made some improvement they now make all of us whose kids are car riders leave by one certain door, one of the teachers is there with a list and if you aren't on that list you don't leave with that child. That has also caused a few problems too. A couple of children who are always picked up by their grandmother had their mother come to get them one day. The grandma had forgot to put the mom on the list so she couldn't leave with her own children. But the front door is still a problem I mean parents hold the door for each other and they buzz it open for whole groups at a time.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:22 am

Hope6;1457606 wrote: Actually I found out later that he tried to get in 3 times and the staff wouldn't let him in. How he finally got in was he followed in another group of parents who were coming in and he just kinda went along with the crowd. The whole thing has made some improvement they now make all of us whose kids are car riders leave by one certain door, one of the teachers is there with a list and if you aren't on that list you don't leave with that child. That has also caused a few problems too. A couple of children who are always picked up by their grandmother had their mother come to get them one day. The grandma had forgot to put the mom on the list so she couldn't leave with her own children. But the front door is still a problem I mean parents hold the door for each other and they buzz it open for whole groups at a time.

It is one thing to be locked up with aspiring criminals. At least there was an adult nearby to call for the medics.

Except during a race riot, everybody for themselves.

For me and my kids, the real challenge was the walk from the school door to home.

On your own.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:59 am

Hope6;1457606 wrote: Actually I found out later that he tried to get in 3 times and the staff wouldn't let him in. How he finally got in was he followed in another group of parents who were coming in and he just kinda went along with the crowd. The whole thing has made some improvement they now make all of us whose kids are car riders leave by one certain door, one of the teachers is there with a list and if you aren't on that list you don't leave with that child. That has also caused a few problems too. A couple of children who are always picked up by their grandmother had their mother come to get them one day. The grandma had forgot to put the mom on the list so she couldn't leave with her own children. But the front door is still a problem I mean parents hold the door for each other and they buzz it open for whole groups at a time.

I didn’t realize how complicated it is. I have a 7-year-old. Whether he’s in the class-room or on the playground, all of the teachers know who I am and we (the parents) are asked to at least nod to one of the teachers so they know which child is going home at the end of the day.

A couple of weeks ago the father of one child in my boy’s class showed up drunk out of his wits. I was shocked when I greeted him. But never mind, one teacher took him aside to inform him that he would DEFINITELY NOT be taking his daughter home that day. The school informed the mother (divorced) by telephone that she’d have to pick up her child instead.

I suppose someone could walk along the outside perimeter with an assault rifle, spraying bullets into the school ground but my countrymen don’t seem to think in those terms. I can discuss why that is but I doubt anyone here is interested in another political discussion.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:25 pm

The best approach is a slow educational societal shift. Something similar to the drunk driving shift. And thanks for the sarcasm alert.

recovering conservative · Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:37 pm

tude dog;1457379 wrote: Worth a thousand words.

And I'll continue with that theme.

That was not new to me, and already been debunked, largely for padding the numbers and overall misrepresentation.
So, it's "activists" denying the rights of "law-abiding" gun-owners:

Everytown for Gun Safety is an activist organization against law-abiding citizens carrying firearms.
The mother of the Sandy Hook killer was also a "law-abiding" gun owner. A lot of good that did when her mentally unbalanced son decided to seek vengeance on a primary school! So much for the persecuted gun owner rhetoric.

ijrreview

If that not good enough, go to CNN

Honesty, in my book goes a long way.

So, there were only 15 school shootings in America after Sandy Hook....what a relief.

This map plotting out a comparison of shooting deaths and car accident fatalities is going to make you hate the name Bloomberg even more:

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:37 pm

Bruv;1457541 wrote:

Japanese are all submissive to their government.

Wonder how many commit hari kari every year?

It's rated 10th. in the world.

List of countries by suicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

recovering conservative · Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:06 am

Saint_;1457463 wrote: You named countries that are at war. America is supposedly at peace within it's own borders, yet we suffer casualty rates comparable to countries at war.

Just look at this:

America has a problem with gun violence

One in three people in the U.S. know someone who has been shot.

On average, 32 Americans are murdered with guns every day and 140 are treated for a gun assault in an emergency room.

Every day on average, 51 people kill themselves with a firearm, and 45 people are shot or killed in an accident with a gun.

The U.S. firearm homicide rate is 20 times higher than the combined rates of 22 countries that are our peers in wealth and population.

A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used to kill or injure in a domestic homicide, suicide, or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.

Gun Violence Takes a Massive Toll on American Children

More than one in five U.S. teenagers (ages 14 to 17) report having witnessed a shooting.

An average of eight children and teens under the age of 20 are killed by guns every day.

American children die by guns 11 times as often as children in other high-income countries.

Youth (ages 0 to 19) in the most rural U.S. counties are as likely to die from a gunshot as those living in the most urban counties. Rural children die of more gun suicides and unintentional shooting deaths. Urban children die more often of gun homicides.

Firearm homicide is the second-leading cause of death (after motor vehicle crashes) for young people ages 1-19 in the U.S.

In 2007, more pre-school-aged children (85) were killed by guns than police officers were killed in the line of duty.

People living outside of the U.S. don't get this "right to bear arms" in the first place. We could get into how that "right" is likely a misinterpretation of the 2nd Amendment to begin with....they ignore the part about the "well-regulated militia" in that amendment wording, but what needs to be emphasized is that a lot of the carnage is a result of the guns&ammo manufacturers lobby has hamstrung efforts to regulate assault rifles, larger than necessary gun clips, complete background checks....say nothing of handgun registration - in most countries, a handgun requires a special permit, and you have to prove to law enforcement that you have a legitimate need to carry a handgun. I don't want to live in a country where Cletus and Billybob can walk into the local McDonalds with an AR-15 strapped to their backs!

recovering conservative · Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:17 am

Hope6;1457590 wrote: I'm kinda of 2 minds about this. I have a 7 year old child so of course I worry. We've had a terrible time with the security this year at his school. It was so easy to go into that school you could just go in and walk around anywhere. Then after the Sandy Hook shooting they did at least start locking the door but they still left the gate open that led to the play ground. One mother even staged a fake kidnapping of her daughter to prove how bad it was, she got her brother from out of town to try and get into the school and leave with her daughter and he managed to do it. That really stirred up a mess. From what I've seen there just isn't enough security at schools. As for guns I have 3, I've taken the training course and have a concealed weapon permit but I live out in the sticks as the saying goes I'm out in the field in the middle of nowhere sometimes and our sheriff's department is 30 minutes away. We also have a wildlife threat I had a coyote run across the road in front of my car the other day. I have a right to protect my livestock. As for taking away the guns my thought about that is, the criminals aren't going to give there's up so basically we will be unable to protect ourselves and the bad guys will have all the guns.

The Sandy Hook School had classrooms with locks, and teachers had to lock and unlock their classroom doors. But what they didn't consider was that new teachers and supply teachers were not provided keys to classrooms, so they had to leave their doors unlocked; so the killer just went down the halls searching for rooms that weren't locked and found two with teachers unable to lock their doors. I have to say at this point, that if crime and risk of death is that high that teachers have to lock their classrooms, this is already a dystopian world in right-to-bear-arms land!

About the coyotes: you're not going to use a handgun if you're a farmer trying to protect yourself from wild dogs. In many countries, like Canada, there is a disconnect between urban and rural voters on the gun issue that probably can't be resolved to everyone's satisfaction...because if you live in the country, you are going to have situations where you need to pull out a rifle, but if you live in the city, the barrel of that rifle can be sawed off and used for B&E's and robbing store clerks.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:18 am

recovering conservative;1457623 wrote: I don't want to live in a country where Cletus and Billybob can walk into the local McDonalds with an AR-15 strapped to their backs!

I don't know about Billybob but Cletus already has one. He usually holds it pressed to his hip (however) when he goes in for his Egg McMuffin with sausage breakfast.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:27 am

I was just looking at the gun-murder rate per 100,000 inhabitants for the U.S. I am astounded to see that D.C. outdoes everybody. Most states have an apporoximate 3 gun-murder average but D.C. has more than 16!!!

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:14 am

Well most of us don't have a problem, I mean everybody over there knows me so I can pretty much do what I want but it's when someone comes in that they don't know, like the mother who couldn't pick up her own kids, she usually never comes there, so the teacher at the door didn't know her. Thankfully she happens to go to the same church as the principal so he came out and vouched for her.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:22 am

Our school didn't have anything locked the classroom doors or the outside door. After the Sandy Hook shooting they started locking the outside door and they buzz you in when you come up and they see who you are but they still don't lock the classroom doors. It was only after the girl staged the fake kidnapping that they started making you leave by one door and be checked off a list.

As for the guns no you wouldn't be shooting a coyote with a handgun, that's why of my 3 guns 1 is a handgun the other are a shotgun and a rifle. I have a handgun because Jake and I are here alone at night and the police are 30 minutes away, I'm going to protect us if need be. The shotgun is great for shooting snakes, the rifle was actually a birthday present from my dad for my 16th birthday, I don't use it much.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:59 am

Hope6;1457632 wrote: ..... the mother who couldn't pick up her own kids, she usually never comes there, so the teacher at the door didn't know her. .....

You mean the school didn't know her or her brother? Who ususally get the child?

Hope6;1457633 wrote: ..... The shotgun is great for shooting snakes, the rifle was actually a birthday present from my dad for my 16th birthday, I don't use it much.

You are allowed to shoot snakes? You must live in the desert.

recovering conservative · Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:49 am

Hope6;1457633 wrote: Our school didn't have anything locked the classroom doors or the outside door. After the Sandy Hook shooting they started locking the outside door and they buzz you in when you come up and they see who you are but they still don't lock the classroom doors. It was only after the girl staged the fake kidnapping that they started making you leave by one door and be checked off a list.

I know this school safety issue drifts past guns to general levels....or at perceived levels of violence in today's world. I grew up in a time with no locks on classroom doors, no metal detectors...in my area, I think they have them now in some Toronto high schools...but since there is a gap of 7 years between my eldest son and my youngest, I could see the difference in school security requirements change from the time our youngest started school.

There are a lot of issues that run together, and I'm sure that back when I was young, and we disappeared most of the day during the summers, to run off with friends looking for fun and adventure...until it got too dark and it was time to go home...maybe both children and parents weren't as aware of possible dangers to children. Every once in a while there was a child abducted somewhere, and I don't know how much greater the risk of predation is today, or whether it's just the modern non-stop assault of sensational media blowing every crime story out of proportion.

One thing for sure, if you allow every clown with fake I.D. to buy a gun at a gun shop...or even worse, gun shows allowing private sales to everyone and anyone, there are a lot more guns out there....many of them stolen from the original owners, so you can't walk down the street of many American cities without wondering if everybody you meet is packing!

One big glaring omission from the gun debate in the U.S. (because of America's predisposition to ignore everything that happens in the rest of the world) is that thousands of stolen, blackmarket firearms have crossed the borders into Canada and Mexico. Toronto has had growing numbers of shootings in recent years because of the pipeline supplying U.S. firearms into Canada. So far, the smaller towns and cities around Toronto have not been much affected by Toronto's rising gun crimes issue, but I suspect that even where I live, the stories of stabbings and knife-wielding robbers will be replaced by criminals carrying guns, thanks to U.S.'s proliferation of firearms and lax to non-existent regulations and laws!

As for the guns no you wouldn't be shooting a coyote with a handgun, that's why of my 3 guns 1 is a handgun the other are a shotgun and a rifle. I have a handgun because Jake and I are here alone at night and the police are 30 minutes away, I'm going to protect us if need be. The shotgun is great for shooting snakes, the rifle was actually a birthday present from my dad for my 16th birthday, I don't use it much.

If you're living in Virginia, I expect that you need a handgun because almost everyone else is armed, and you're a sitting duck if you don't have equal firepower. I can understand it....I just don't want to have to live it!

When it comes to protection from wolves and wild dogs, there are ways to deal with wilderness threats without carrying a rifle. To protect a farm and livestock, there are great pyrenees and anatolians, whose specific job is not herding sheep, but protecting the flock from wolves, and will stand off a pack of wolves:

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:01 pm

recovering conservative;1457621 wrote: So, it's "activists" denying the rights of "law-abiding" gun-owners:

Though largely ineffectual, Bloomberg has a history of going after gun rights.

recovering conservative;1457621 wrote: The mother of the Sandy Hook killer was also a "law-abiding" gun owner. A lot of good that did when her mentally unbalanced son decided to seek vengeance on a primary school!

She should have known better.

recovering conservative;1457621 wrote: So much for the persecuted gun owner rhetoric.

I don't know so much persecuted.

recovering conservative;1457621 wrote: So, there were only 15 school shootings in America after Sandy Hook....what a relief.

The actual number is horrible. You missed my point which was that Bloomberg and his cohorts did not think that was enough so they cooked the books and tried to pull a fast one.

recovering conservative;1457621 wrote: This map plotting out a comparison of shooting deaths and car accident fatalities is going to make you hate the name Bloomberg even more:

Oh no, it does not move me at all. It is the kind of worthless work I've seen before.

What is laughable he puts this stuff out and expects to be taken seriously. A link or two backing it up would have been nice. I'm not holding my breath on that one.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:16 pm

High Threshold;1457626 wrote: I was just looking at the gun-murder rate per 100,000 inhabitants for the U.S. I am astounded to see that D.C. outdoes everybody. Most states have an apporoximate 3 gun-murder average but D.C. has more than 16!!!

Gun laws in the District of Columbia

Judge upholds D.C.’s gun law

MILLER: Q&A on D.C.'s gun laws

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:26 am

tude dog;1457690 wrote: Gun laws in the District of Columbia

Judge upholds D.C.’s gun law

MILLER: Q&A on D.C.'s gun laws

So really, it shows that individual state laws are ridiculous. That ought to be obvious. A tiny place like DC is hardly isolated from the surrounding states. I mean if you don't own a pit bull because you think it's dangerous to your child but your wife buys one for herself ... then where's the logic? If the U.S. wants to decrease its gun-murder rate then the whole country should get behind DC's laws and impliment those laws nation-wide.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:26 pm

Just when I'd about given up hope, there is good news from the Supreme Court. You can't use "straw buyers" anymore. The justices said that using someone else to buy you a gun circumvents all the processes in place to keep guns away from felons and whack jobs. (Well ...they didn't exactly use that language.)

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:46 pm

Saint_;1457932 wrote: Just when I'd about given up hope, there is good news from the Supreme Court. You can't use "straw buyers" anymore. The justices said that using someone else to buy you a gun circumvents all the processes in place to keep guns away from felons and whack jobs. (Well ...they didn't exactly use that language.)

It just goes to show that I underastand nothing of American law. I was always under the impression that the Supreme Court was only called in to sort out cases where suggested legislation was uncertain, and the logic obscure.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:00 am

High Threshold;1457953 wrote: It just goes to show that I underastand nothing of American law. I was always under the impression that the Supreme Court was only called in to sort out cases where suggested legislation was uncertain, and the logic obscure.

That's actually what happened. A Nephew went out and bought a gun for his Uncle. What was unclear was that the Uncle was legally allowed to have a gun. There are laws preventing people for buying guns for convicted felons or non-U.S. citizens, but this guy could legally buy a gun himself. He blew it by writing "For Glock 19" on the check he paid his Nephew with. He challenged the law saying that he had a right to buy a gun, just didn't want to do it himself. The Court decided that allowing people to do that circumvents ALL the checks and balances in place to prevent crazy people, angry people, and felons from getting guns.

This should help to stem the tide of weapons going out from dealers in the south of my state to Mexican Cartels and drug gangs. They routinely send straw buyers across the border to buy assault rifles. (Don't even get me started on why in the world normal citizens would need military grade assault rifles. Or why my deluded and insane country would allow their sale. They should still be banned.)

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:46 pm

recovering conservative;1457621 wrote: So, it's "activists" denying the rights of "law-abiding" gun-owners:

The mother of the Sandy Hook killer was also a "law-abiding" gun owner. A lot of good that did when her mentally unbalanced son decided to seek vengeance on a primary school! So much for the persecuted gun owner rhetoric.

So, there were only 15 school shootings in America after Sandy Hook....what a relief.

This map plotting out a comparison of shooting deaths and car accident fatalities is going to make you hate the name Bloomberg even more:

This kind of emotionally driven "information" does nothing to further the discussion.

That says more for the advances in motor vehicle safety than anything else.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:06 pm

LarsMac;1458574 wrote: This kind of emotionally driven "information" does nothing to further the discussion.

That says more for the advances in motor vehicle safety than anything else.

I agree. It's hardly a fair comparison. After all, passenger cars are so dangerous that they require a license to operate (with an eye exam). They are so dangerous that they must be registered and the registration renewed annually. They are so dangerous that they have to be insured and cannot be operated while drunk or impaired. We could never expect to require any of that for gun owners.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:19 pm

Wandrin;1458578 wrote: I agree. It's hardly a fair comparison. After all, passenger cars are so dangerous that they require a license to operate (with an eye exam). They are so dangerous that they must be registered and the registration renewed annually. .

Nicely said.

Yes, Firearms are dangerous. And should be licensed and insured, as well. I am not one of those flaming gun nuts who thinks rampant, unregulated ownership is the only thing keeping us safe from the commies, or socialized Medicine, or the Moonies, or whatever. I have lived all my life around both Automobiles and Firearms. And to your point, I have known far more people killed by automobiles than by firearms. When I was a boy, the NRA was all about firearm safety. I cannot pinpoint exactly when they went off the reservation, and became the banner for gun nuts. Seems it was somewhere in the late seventies, maybe early eighties. When LaPierre and Heston became their mouthpieces, I think.

Wandrin;1458578 wrote: They are so dangerous that they have to be insured and cannot be operated while drunk or impaired. We could never expect to require any of that for gun owners.

Well, that can very easily be operated while the operator is drunk or impaired. (I have yet to see a drunk car, by the way.)

Wandrin;1458578 wrote: We could never expect to require any of that for gun owners.
We damned well should. Maybe we do have the right to keep and bear arms, but that right has the responsibility to do so mindfully, and to see that no one is harmed by our exercise of that right.

In that, we have failed miserably.

Having said that, I must add that taking all the guns away from all the law-abiding citizens of this country will not solve any of the problems mentioned in this thread. Were it that simple, I would happily line up and turn in all mine.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:55 pm

LarsMac;1458584 wrote: ........ taking all the guns away from all the law-abiding citizens of this country will not solve any of the problems mentioned in this thread. Were it that simple, I would happily line up and turn in all mine.

Every drop of water contributes to the flood. Every vote counts in an election. Every good deed multiplies. Guns (like cars) get old, rust, get damaged, get lost. Pumping the commmunity with vast numbers of new ones can hardly be considered the way to its demise. Actively destroying those that already exist will certainly speed the process along.

"Were it that simple", you say. The simplicity here is in the logic that less guns mean less gun-relataed crimes. We are talking about GUNS. If the subject is crime - in general - then social problems (such as inequality, education, and poverty) will need to be discussed IN CONJUCTION with guns. Guns are tools that can be used in a devastating manner IF THE NEED ARISES. That need exists.

You have a couple of choises to make. Choose wisely.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:22 pm

I supect if I were an american I would be very much in favour of gun ownership not for fear of government/socialim etc but rather the right wing christian nutters who seem to think they have god given right to bloe people away when they don't like them.

About to start reading a dale brown book about right wing militias overthrowing the US government. Seems to be a common theme in american science fiction, the postman, the handmaids tale and the like, (OK I don't claim to have taken a representative sample) that and aliens attacking los angeles and being saved by ww2 battleships. Bitish sci fi on the other hand if in a similar vein tends to feature a government that becomes very right wing which if the scots vote for indpendence and ukip get control might very well happen epcially if muslim fundamentalists provoke the backlash they seem determind to.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:56 am

gmc;1458596 wrote: I supect if I were an american I would be very much in favour of gun ownership not for fear of government/socialim etc but rather the right wing christian nutters who seem to think they have god given right to bloe people away when they don't like them.

Too bloody right.

gmc;1458596 wrote: ..... Bitish sci fi on the other hand if in a similar vein tends to feature a government that becomes very right wing .....

Apparently the best works of Orwell haven't yet reached the far shores of the pond.

recovering conservative · Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:07 am

LarsMac;1458574 wrote: This kind of emotionally driven "information" does nothing to further the discussion.

That says more for the advances in motor vehicle safety than anything else.

Yes, as the graphic plainly shows - motor vehicle deaths are declining....BUT, did you also notice that firearms deaths are rising? Sounds like a good argument for less regulation and open carry!

recovering conservative · Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:09 am

Wandrin;1458578 wrote: I agree. It's hardly a fair comparison. After all, passenger cars are so dangerous that they require a license to operate (with an eye exam). They are so dangerous that they must be registered and the registration renewed annually. They are so dangerous that they have to be insured and cannot be operated while drunk or impaired. We could never expect to require any of that for gun owners.
Nicely done!

recovering conservative · Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:18 am

gmc;1458596 wrote: I supect if I were an american I would be very much in favour of gun ownership not for fear of government/socialim etc but rather the right wing christian nutters who seem to think they have god given right to bloe people away when they don't like them.
I agree. If we're in a situation where anyone and everyone could be running around with a gun, then everybody needs to be packing for their own protection!

The big unmentioned problem with having everyone owning guns is that a large percentage of guns are stolen and end up on the blackmarket. Hand guns are more of a draw for burglary than drugs. Handgun permits are rare and difficult to get where I live in southern Ontario, but we are experiencing more and more gun crimes...mostly in Toronto, but some of the weapons that find there way here from the U.S. are filtering down to criminals in smaller cities also. It's still not like living in Chicago, but it's a problem that is getting worse because of living so close to America's gun fetishists! Not quite as deadly as Mexico's problem with American guns, but bad enough!

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:25 am

recovering conservative;1458598 wrote: Yes, as the graphic plainly shows - motor vehicle deaths are declining....BUT, did you also notice that firearms deaths are rising? Sounds like a good argument for less regulation and open carry!

Yes, of course this rise is a projection. However did YOU notice that firearm deaths actually have been fairly steady over the entire period? So the interpretation of the data showed by the graph is what is incorrect. Firearm deaths are not rising significantly, as the reporter suggests.

The gun argument is a distraction. Until we concentrate on fixing the problems that leave people feeling disenfranchised, we are only putting a bandaid on a broken leg.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:27 am

High Threshold;1458594 wrote: less guns mean less gun-related crimes.

Amen to that. Guns don't kill people. People kill people...with guns. Massively. All the time. Everywhere.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:29 am

recovering conservative;1458600 wrote: I agree. If we're in a situation where anyone and everyone could be running around with a gun, then everybody needs to be packing for their own protection!

Welcome to the Wild West. Not the true Wild West, because it wasn't as bad as that. Welcome to the Horrifyingly Real Wild West. I suppose people will begin shooting each other for parking spaces and dirty looks. They already shoot each other for changing lanes in traffic and every other reason you can think of. Hell, some of them are shooting people just for the fun of it.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:31 am

gmc;1458596 wrote: I supect if I were an american I would be very much in favour of gun ownership not for fear of government/socialim etc but rather the right wing christian nutters who seem to think they have god given right to bloe people away when they don't like them.

That's why I sometimes consider buying a gun. People in New Mexico walk around with pistols strapped to their hips. It's even legal to carry a rifle.

recovering conservative · Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:33 am

LarsMac;1458609 wrote: Yes, of course this rise is a projection. However did YOU notice that firearm deaths actually have been fairly steady over the entire period? So the interpretation of the data showed by the graph is what is incorrect. Firearm deaths are not rising significantly, as the reporter suggests.
It depends on what you consider significant! I think it's significant that, even without the increase in gun-related deaths, the U.S. still has far higher gun deaths than any other developed nation in the world. I took a quick look at the Wikipedia entry on firearms death by nation, and find that, aside from the countries embroiled in revolution and civil war, the U.S. has four times as many gun deaths per capita as Canada; while our gun deaths are being inflated by the proliferation of firearms in America that flow across borders....this is the real border crisis!

The gun argument is a distraction. Until we concentrate on fixing the problems that leave people feeling disenfranchised, we are only putting a bandaid on a broken leg.
A disenfranchised person is more likely to act on impulse when angry than someone who is happy and satisfied with their lives no doubt; but that is a distraction if nothing is done to address the continual chipping away of the Welfare State (which goes on under Democratic presidents also). What I do know is that making it easy to put firearms in the hands of someone who already wants to lash out, is asking for trouble, to say the least.

recovering conservative · Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:41 am

Saint_;1458618 wrote: Welcome to the Wild West. Not the true Wild West, because it wasn't as bad as that. Welcome to the Horrifyingly Real Wild West. I suppose people will begin shooting each other for parking spaces and dirty looks. They already shoot each other for changing lanes in traffic and every other reason you can think of. Hell, some of them are shooting people just for the fun of it.

Absolutely! I vaguely recalled all of the westerns I used to watch as a kid where much of the trouble starts with cowboys who want to keep their guns with them when they come in to town. A couple of years ago, I listened to an episode of one of my regular podcast subscriptions - the KERA program Think, which featured an interview with historian- Jeff Guinn, who wrote a book detailing his analysis sifting through the myth to get at the most accurate truth behind the legendary Gunfight at the O.K. Corral - “The Last Gunfight: The Real Story of the Shootout at the O.K. Corral-And How It Changed the American West

Worth a listen if you have an hour to spare and are willing to listen to something else besides music on your Ipod...as are many of the episodes of the Think series.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:20 am

OK, reality check.

All the rhetoric aside, there is not any way, for the moment, that you are going to get 270 million Americans to willingly give up all their guns. It ain't gonna happen, folks. Sorry. The right and wrong of that make great forum fodder, but that is all it is.

So, attacking the real problem behind the homicide rate will go much further in solving the problems than trying to do what is nearly impossible.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:33 pm

LarsMac;1458625 wrote: OK, reality check.

All the rhetoric aside, there is not any way, for the moment, that you are going to get 270 million Americans to willingly give up all their guns. It ain't gonna happen, folks. Sorry.

And yet Australia and Japan have done just that. It will take the most part of a century, but perhaps not considering the huge impact that MADD made against drunk driving, but there will come a tipping point. I'd bet on it.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:12 pm

I guess I don't understand the extreme rhetoric that follows any attempt to introduce simple common sense registration or safety rules. Surely the majority of Congress doesn't believe the claptrap about secret UN detention camps and all that. The amazing thing to me is that most of those balking at registering guns have no problem presenting ID to get a fishing license.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:41 pm

Yeah! That's hilarious! And they don't mind having to register their car, either!

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:45 pm

Wandrin;1458638 wrote: I guess I don't understand the extreme rhetoric that follows any attempt to introduce simple common sense registration or safety rules. Surely the majority of Congress doesn't believe the claptrap about secret UN detention camps and all that. The amazing thing to me is that most of those balking at registering guns have no problem presenting ID to get a fishing license.

Well, yeah, they don't expect the gummint to come take their fishing poles away from them.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:02 pm

Saint_;1458630 wrote: And yet Australia and Japan have done just that. It will take the most part of a century, but perhaps not considering the huge impact that MADD made against drunk driving, but there will come a tipping point. I'd bet on it.

Australia and Japan have always had restrictions on Firearms.

The US has been fairly unrestrictive throughout the history of the country.

And until organizations like the NRA take the lead in making changes to the way firearms are managed in this country we will make very little progress.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:27 pm

Can we edit the title of this thread now? It's depressing me...

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:56 pm

It has bothered me since it started. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, changing a title is not possible.

I had thought about opening a new thread with a more "politically Correct" title, and then move all of the posts there.

Where HT to not object, it could be done.