In the beginning....

[Jives]

I was debating something like this with my teacher's aide yesterday. Sort of an 'Science vs. God" discussion. We disagree on things like the age of the Earth and the process of evolution, but we both agreed that there is a Creator. (Just look up at a night sky!)

And I guess I'd have to say Sagan, that even though my father was a physicist and I'm a mathematician, I still believe in God.

But I'll stand by your right to think what you want, because I know that when you are lying in a hospital bed, considering that it might be your last day in this plane of existence....

I'm pretty sure you'll find it's infinitely more comforting to believe.

"I know it in my heart" will be prefectly acceptable at that moment.

What's that old saying? "There are no atheists in foxholes."

[Raven]

sagan wrote: I doubt it. I hope I've more intellectual integrity than that.



Wrong, there's even a monument to them in Alabama.

http://www.mindspring.com/~alutiiq/athe ... holes.html

Want a far more realistic saying?

"There's not been one dead christian in a foxhole who didn't pray to god he wasn't."
What I would like to know, is why are you in this thread? You wont change anyones mind here. But I can pretty much promise, you'll get alot of well-meaning folks trying to change yours. And as thats the only conclusion I can come to, is that you're asking us to convince you that there is a God, then I'm sure we'll be happy to try. Oh by the way....we christians tend to capitalize 'God' when we're referring to the One we worship. We dont, if we're referring to any other so-called 'god'. Most christians tend to only believe in One. And if you wouldnt mind too much, can we please get back to the original topic of this thread?

[Raven]

sagan wrote: And what's it to you if I contribute to this thread? As far as I'm aware, it's purpose is debate. You are quite free to ignore my posts. If you don't like what I'm saying - don't read it. However, I know there are at least some theists/deists on this board who are capable of sustaining a rational debate.



No, not really, I'm just exploring the wonderful world of self-delusion.



I don't, because I don't. Your point is?



If you wouldn't mind too much, leave the decision whether a thread is going off topic to Koan, she is more than capable of directing this forum without your help.
suit yourself.

[kensloft]

Raven wrote: What I would like to know, is why are you in this thread? You wont change anyones mind here. But I can pretty much promise, you'll get alot of well-meaning folks trying to change yours. And as thats the only conclusion I can come to, is that you're asking us to convince you that there is a God, then I'm sure we'll be happy to try. Oh by the way....we christians tend to capitalize 'God' when we're referring to the One we worship. We dont, if we're referring to any other so-called 'god'. Most christians tend to only believe in One. And if you wouldnt mind too much, can we please get back to the original topic of this thread?
Who is saying that this isn't the beginning?

[koan]

Belief in God (capitalized) is crucial to any belief in Genesis. So the contents of sagan's athiest mind are actually relevant to the topic. I believe he valiantly posts here in the hope that someone will some day give him a reasonable arguement for God's existence. Anyone who feels the thread is off topic can post something on topic to bring it back. Over and over if need be. :-6

[kensloft]

koan wrote: Belief in God (capitalized) is crucial to any belief in Genesis. So the contents of sagan's athiest mind are actually relevant to the topic. I believe he valiantly posts here in the hope that someone will some day give him a reasonable arguement for God's existence. Anyone who feels the thread is off topic can post something on topic to bring it back. Over and over if need be. :-6
I'd reply but I don't want to be called certain names. :-1

[Raven]

kensloft wrote: I'd reply but I don't want to be called certain names. :-1
LOL! :yh_rotfl

[Raven]

koan wrote: Belief in God (capitalized) is crucial to any belief in Genesis. So the contents of sagan's athiest mind are actually relevant to the topic. I believe he valiantly posts here in the hope that someone will some day give him a reasonable arguement for God's existence. Anyone who feels the thread is off topic can post something on topic to bring it back. Over and over if need be. :-6
Good enough for me.

But as God doesnt force the issue, we dont either. Every person has free choice in the matter. What I dont appreciate, is being ridiculed for my choice. I dont feel I'm self-deluded in the slightest.

[koan]

Raven wrote: Good enough for me.

But as God doesnt force the issue, we dont either. Every person has free choice in the matter. What I dont appreciate, is being ridiculed for my choice. I dont feel I'm self-deluded in the slightest.


In religious matters I would think for you that another Christian saying you are self-deluded would be of great concern but a scientific minded athiest? Of course he thinks you are deluded. Like you have said, your beliefs give you comfort. Don't let anyone take that away from you with mere words expressing an opinion. To each his own, that includes you. :-6

[Ted]

There are a great number of bona fide scientists who believe in the Divine. For those who can't or won't that is of course a personal issue but they simply don't get it. What more can I say. If folks can find a problem with the Great Commandment or at least the second part of it they do have a problem. Love God and love your fellow man. Another good expression of that is "He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does he Lord require of you but to do justice, adn to love kindness, and to walk humbly with you God?" Micah 6:8.

As for suggesting they are somehow more intellectual or intelligent then those who believe in the Divine that is opinion and pure nonsense.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[koan]

Good point Ted.

I merely said scientific minded athiest because a lot of athiests don't have much issue with why some people believe but the scientific aspect makes it more likely to question the faith of others.

[kensloft]

koan wrote: In religious matters I would think for you that another Christian saying you are self-deluded would be of great concern but a scientific minded athiest? Of course he thinks you are deluded. Like you have said, your beliefs give you comfort. Don't let anyone take that away from you with mere words expressing an opinion. To each his own, that includes you. :-6
100% right. Well stated. As usual.

[Raven]

sagan wrote: I don't have a problem with the second part. My problem is I don't see the need for the supernatural first part to make the second part valid. Why not drop the first part altogether, and just abide by the Ethic of Reciprocity, and use the 'Golden Rule' as enunciated by Confucius centuries before christianity, or maybe the philosopy of Socrates, or even the Wiccan rede. Some kind of spiritual epiphany isn't necessary to lead a good and ethical existence.



The words intellectual and intelligent were never mentioned. I am aware some extremely intelligent people deluded themselves about many different things in the past, and today - Newton and alchemy for instance.
Oh c'mon, sagan! LOL! Just because they havent found the philosophers stone yet, doesnt mean they cant! They just gave up trying! (or have they? :sneaky: )

Thats the problem with science, nowadays. Theres no imagination in it anymore.

As far as centuries before Christ, Hammurabi was one of the first 'law givers'. Ancient Babylon had it going on long before Confucius. And no, a spiritual epiphany ISNT necessary for an ethical existance. However it IS necessary for a spiritually enriched one. It gives life a REASON for being. It also gives hope. I have a hard time imagining myself as a person who thinks this one ride around is it. To those who have had spiritual epiphanies, this is just the beginning.

[Raven]

Ted wrote: There are a great number of bona fide scientists who believe in the Divine. For those who can't or won't that is of course a personal issue but they simply don't get it. What more can I say. If folks can find a problem with the Great Commandment or at least the second part of it they do have a problem. Love God and love your fellow man. Another good expression of that is "He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does he Lord require of you but to do justice, adn to love kindness, and to walk humbly with you God?" Micah 6:8.

As for suggesting they are somehow more intellectual or intelligent then those who believe in the Divine that is opinion and pure nonsense.

Shalom

Ted :-6
I cant believe I'm actually AGREEING with you!

I better sit down.......I'm feeling faint..... :yh_laugh

[kensloft]

Raven wrote: Neanderthal walked the earth before us. Totally unrelated species of man. But human being nonetheless. No genetic relation to Cro-Magnon, yet human just the same. Could this be the people who took in 'Cain'? Hard questions. These people existed with the mammoth. We came a little later. What happened to these people? God gave a strange command to those first created. He said to "Go forth and multiply and to REplenish the earth." Replenish means exactly that. It had to have had something there in the first place, and then not, to be able to replenish it. The word replenish occurs in every single version of the bible I have read. I know. I've checked.

Oxford dictionary definition- Replenish: fill up again after some has been used.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20 ... rthal.html
When the book of Genesis was written it was written by people that were writing to a completely ignorant people. The first question of where did all these people around us come from was attempted to be answered by the geneology of who begat whom.

It showed that they had been there for thousands of years and that was why there were so many people around. It was more of a teaching guide.

[Ted]

Raven :-6

WE must be careful. We wouldn't want to ruin our reputations. We'll definitely have to be careful about this agreeing thing. LOL

Shalom

Ted :-6

[Ted]

Sagan :-6

"I have more intellectual integrity then that"

An interesting comment that would suggest that those who believe lack intellectual integrity. That amounts to a "put down". There are two types of minds in the world; the mind of the child and the mind of the adult. "Put downs are usually used by children to boost their own ego. When adults use "Put downs" it is usually for the same reason.

I have been among intellectuals and highly intelligent folks for years and the honorable ones never resort to put downs. Even the atheists, many of whom I have known don't resort to polemics in debate. I am also acquainted with many intellectual and honorable believers in the Divine who are scientists and scholars. Their integrity seems to be intact and highly esteemed.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[Ted]

Sagan :-6

You are correct that was my mistake. I apologize. I could blame poor eyesight but the real culprit is not reading slowly enough to get the whole gist.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[koan]

Whew, glad that one got sorted out.

I find it interesting that we feel such a strong urge to figure out how it all started. I grew up quite removed from my relatives and never had a sense of history. I never got into family trees or had any real attachment to history. I find the debate interesting but, in the end, don't think I really care how it all started. I do care about what it is. But also don't care if it will ever end.

[kensloft]

koan wrote: Whew, glad that one got sorted out.

I find it interesting that we feel such a strong urge to figure out how it all started. I grew up quite removed from my relatives and never had a sense of history. I never got into family trees or had any real attachment to history. I find the debate interesting but, in the end, don't think I really care how it all started. I do care about what it is. But also don't care if it will ever end.
Is this scepticism or cynicism?

[koan]

kensloft wrote: Is this scepticism or cynicism?


Neither, it's Zen.

in the end, don't think I really care how it all started. I do care about what it is. But also don't care if it will ever end.

Living in the now.

[Raven]

kensloft wrote: When the book of Genesis was written it was written by people that were writing to a completely ignorant people. The first question of where did all these people around us come from was attempted to be answered by the geneology of who begat whom.

It showed that they had been there for thousands of years and that was why there were so many people around. It was more of a teaching guide.
I guess I just have a fascination with the Neanderthal. With the DNA capabilities we have, it's been discovered that yes, they were human, but a completely seperate species as us. The latest discoveries on them, was that they had the capabilities for speech. Their hyoid bones were located down in their throats and exactly the same as ours. In other words, they had a 'voice box' just like us. But with their barrel like rib cages, their voices would've been booming! Like an opera singers. And they wouldve been high pitched due to their nasal structure. They were the sturdier of people, yet we were the ones to survive the long haul. But I believe Genesis was written by Moses. And as an educated 'prince of egypt', I dont think he would have resorted to handing out myth to a people who desperately needed to have answers of their own. These people werent ignorant. These were an unruly, pagan, egyptian god worshipping bunch! :wah:

So if genesis is just a myth, (of which they would already have similar ones) why not just start with deuteronomy, or skip the beginning and get right to the Abraham bit?

[kensloft]

Alpha - Omega?

[koan]

Raven wrote: I guess I just have a fascination with the Neanderthal. With the DNA capabilities we have, it's been discovered that yes, they were human, but a completely seperate species as us. The latest discoveries on them, was that they had the capabilities for speech. Their hyoid bones were located down in their throats and exactly the same as ours. In other words, they had a 'voice box' just like us. But with their barrel like rib cages, their voices would've been booming! Like an opera singers. And they wouldve been high pitched due to their nasal structure. They were the sturdier of people, yet we were the ones to survive the long haul. But I believe Genesis was written by Moses. And as an educated 'prince of egypt', I dont think he would have resorted to handing out myth to a people who desperately needed to have answers of their own. These people werent ignorant. These were an unruly, pagan, egyptian god worshipping bunch! :wah:

So if genesis is just a myth, (of which they would already have similar ones) why not just start with deuteronomy, or skip the beginning and get right to the Abraham bit?


What better place to start than at the beginning. A religion without a creation myth might not have caught on. People thrive(d) on myth. Why would he not cater to that as well?

[kensloft]

Raven wrote: I guess I just have a fascination with the Neanderthal. With the DNA capabilities we have, it's been discovered that yes, they were human, but a completely seperate species as us. The latest discoveries on them, was that they had the capabilities for speech. Their hyoid bones were located down in their throats and exactly the same as ours. In other words, they had a 'voice box' just like us. But with their barrel like rib cages, their voices would've been booming! Like an opera singers. And they wouldve been high pitched due to their nasal structure. They were the sturdier of people, yet we were the ones to survive the long haul. But I believe Genesis was written by Moses. And as an educated 'prince of egypt', I dont think he would have resorted to handing out myth to a people who desperately needed to have answers of their own. These people werent ignorant. These were an unruly, pagan, egyptian god worshipping bunch! :wah:

So if genesis is just a myth, (of which they would already have similar ones) why not just start with deuteronomy, or skip the beginning and get right to the Abraham bit?
If you are so into dna then you are familiar with the recent findings of geneticists that were able to trace a tribe of Africans whose genetic markers, from 50 thousand years ago, were traced to Australia, India, Central Aisa, Mongolia, China, Siberia and North America. Central Asia is where the Europeans come from along the Indo European movement.

What this means is that we ARE, actually, brothers and sisters in the Biblical sense of the word.. Race is a stupid, man made barrier.

[Ted]

I'n not sure why anyone has a problem with the creation stories being myth. Myth is an excellent tool for teaching truths.

Actually the Pentateuch was passed on orally for hundreds of yers before it was written down, likely during the Babylonian exile. At that it is a combination of several different versions of the story.

As far as starting with Abraham there is no evidence that he is anything other then an ancient myth. But again myth is an excellent tool for teaching truths.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[Ted]

Site Admin



Joined: 31 Mar 2004

Posts: 1685



PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:44 pm Post subject: Physicist Wins Spirituality Prize Reply with quote

Charles Townes, the UC Berkeley professor who shared the 1964 Nobel Prize in physics for his work in quantum electronics and then startled the scientific world by suggesting that religion and science were converging, was awarded the $1.5-million Templeton Prize on Wednesday for progress in spiritual knowledge........................

............In the article, Townes said science and religion should find common ground, noting "their differences are largely superficial, and … the two become almost indistinguishable if we look at the real nature of each." When MIT published the article, a prominent alumnus threatened to break ties with the institution.

Reference

_________________

Good governance starts with governing yourself.

Back to top

View user's profile Send private message

Shalom

Ted :-6

[kensloft]

Ted wrote: Site Admin



Joined: 31 Mar 2004

Posts: 1685



PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:44 pm Post subject: Physicist Wins Spirituality Prize Reply with quote

Charles Townes, the UC Berkeley professor who shared the 1964 Nobel Prize in physics for his work in quantum electronics and then startled the scientific world by suggesting that religion and science were converging, was awarded the $1.5-million Templeton Prize on Wednesday for progress in spiritual knowledge........................

............In the article, Townes said science and religion should find common ground, noting "their differences are largely superficial, and … the two become almost indistinguishable if we look at the real nature of each." When MIT published the article, a prominent alumnus threatened to break ties with the institution.

Reference

_________________

Good governance starts with governing yourself.

Back to top

View user's profile Send private message

Shalom

Ted :-6


Do you mean the Pope can't jail him for heresy?

[Ted]

kensloft :-6

I'm not sure the pope is in any shape to nail anyone for heresy.

Besides that is my first effort after all these years at cutting copying and pasting. Hey this thing really works. LOL Now if I could just figure out the rest. LOL

Actually I thought it was an interesting comment on science and religion.



Shalom

Ted :-6

[koan]

Ted wrote:

Besides that is my first effort after all these years at cutting copying and pasting. Hey this thing really works. LOL Now if I could just figure out the rest. LOL

Shalom

Ted :-6
:wah:

I saw "site admin" at the top and thought it was a hostile takeover for a second. LOL

[kensloft]

Ted wrote: kensloft :-6

I'm not sure the pope is in any shape to nail anyone for heresy.

Besides that is my first effort after all these years at cutting copying and pasting. Hey this thing really works. LOL Now if I could just figure out the rest. LOL

Actually I thought it was an interesting comment on science and religion.



Shalom

Ted :-6
Don't think he can't sick the hounds of the Church on you if he wanted to do it.

[kensloft]

koan wrote: :wah:

I saw "site admin" at the top and thought it was a hostile takeover for a second. LOL
It was because you thought that they would be upset with the visual fart?

[koan]

kensloft wrote: It was because you thought that they would be upset with the visual fart?
Hey, I don't make 'em, I just find 'em. I would do that in a religious thread either!

[kensloft]

koan wrote: Hey, I don't make 'em, I just find 'em. I would do that in a religious thread either!
It's not clear what would you do in a religious thread?

[koan]

kensloft wrote: It's not clear what would you do in a religious thread?
Type too fast.

We're becoming experts at sidetracking threads!

[kensloft]

koan wrote: Type too fast.

We're becoming experts at sidetracking threads!
Moi?

[koan]

kensloft wrote: Moi?


You started the world? I bet you DID...and you've been holding out on us!!!

[koan]

According to metaphysics, on the 8th day everything goes out of balance, on the 9th day it reaches it's full potential and on the 10th becomes quite bored with itself and moves on to something better.

[kensloft]

koan wrote: You started the world? I bet you DID...and you've been holding out on us!!!
You give me too much credit. I couldn't have done it without the help of my friends.

[Daniyal]

Raven;35948 wrote: How do you know that there was no 'Adam' or 'Eve'?

Science has already traced back mitochondrial dna to one woman.

I dont know about you, but I didnt come swinging down from a tree. I may like banannas, but I'm no monkey. :-6




Question if I may ; You speak of mitochondrial dna '' Yes'' Are you saying woman were here before ( Men ) ?