Death For Saddam

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:57 pm

Bored_Wombat;451984 wrote: ... The least of the AI letter writers is a thousand times more worthy to be on the planet ....
:yh_eyebro

Bored_Wombat · Post by **Bored_Wombat** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:19 pm

Accountable;451990 wrote: :yh_eyebro
Let me elaborate, because I think I was pulling punches.

AI have a long tradition of fighting with honour and without blood for people and for human rights in a manner that has, as an aside done no evil.

Without cruise missiles the go to Zimbabwe and the DRC, where you can't be bothered to send you precious tanks.

They go to china where your precious tanks dare not go.

They go to Guantanamo where no diplomatic light shines.

And even to Iraq where your precious tanks are impotent against the rising chaos.

And they have had remarkable successes against the most seemingly brutal regimes. Just the knowledge that the world is watching seems to shame these people into honouring human rights.

But why "whine and snivel"? Your implication is that they are impotent, which they are only if the only measure is military force. The comment is symptomatic of the most disgustingly sociopathic mindset I have seen displayed at FG yet.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:56 am

Bored_Wombat;451997 wrote: Let me elaborate, because I think I was pulling punches.

AI have a long tradition of fighting with honour and without blood for people and for human rights in a manner that has, as an aside done no evil.

Without cruise missiles the go to Zimbabwe and the DRC, where you can't be bothered to send you precious tanks.

They go to china where your precious tanks dare not go.

They go to Guantanamo where no diplomatic light shines.

And even to Iraq where your precious tanks are impotent against the rising chaos.

And they have had remarkable successes against the most seemingly brutal regimes. Just the knowledge that the world is watching seems to shame these people into honouring human rights.

But why "whine and snivel"? Your implication is that they are impotent, which they are only if the only measure is military force. The comment is symptomatic of the most disgustingly sociopathic mindset I have seen displayed at FG yet.

They are impotent by any measure I can think of. They have not freed anyone from opression, or stopped genocide anywhere..They spend most of their time and energy criticizing countries that are open, free, and democratic and avoid the places where they might die. They have no ba$$s wombat and neither do you I suspect. You call me a sociopath, fine that may be true I have certainly carried a gun in defense of my way of life, and will certainly use one again if necessary. People like you and the other appeasers on these threads nearly cost Europe and Asia their freedom and cost many people their lives with your constant backing down from dictators and fear of making a stand..So be disgusted, I'll still sleep soundly tonight.

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:21 am

zinkyusa;452274 wrote: People like you and the other appeasers on these threads nearly cost Europe and Asia their freedom and cost many people their lives with your constant backing down from dictators and fear of making a stand..So be disgusted, I'll still sleep soundly tonight.Thank you Zinky. It helps to be reminded occasionally of what we're up against. I do hope you get out and vote. Writing to your Senator demanding an immediate increase in defense spending would be a gesture in the right direction as well.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:23 am

zinkyusa;452274 wrote: People like you and the other appeasers on these threads nearly cost Europe and Asia their freedom and cost many people their lives with your constant backing down from dictators and fear of making a stand..

Same question to you as to Anastrophe. Exactly who do you mean? I wonder

whether you will come up with a better answer than he did.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:28 am

Bill Sikes;452286 wrote: Same question to you as to Anastrophe. Exactly who do you mean? I wonder

whether you will come up with a better answer than he did.

If you don't understand go read a WW2 history book, I would suggest you not read the revisionists versions Spot enjoys..

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:32 am

spot;452284 wrote: Thank you Zinky. It helps to be reminded occasionally of what we're up against. I do hope you get out and vote. Writing to your Senator demanding an immediate increase in defense spending would be a gesture in the right direction as well.

and who is we Spot?

spot

koan

bill sikes

bryn mahr

hamas

hezbollah

iran

NK and the human chia pet

Don't you make a sweet little group?;)

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:33 am

zinkyusa;452290 wrote:

(apologists)

Originally Posted by Bill Sikes

Same question to you as to Anastrophe. Exactly who do you mean? I wonder

whether you will come up with a better answer than he did.

If you don't understand go read a WW2 history book, I would suggest you not read the revisionists versions Spot enjoys..

So that's a "no", then. I didn't think you'd have the - what is it you say - ba$$s.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:37 am

Bill Sikes;452296 wrote: So that's a "no", then. I didn't think you'd have the - what is it you say - ba$$s.

don't have the time to educate an ignoramus..

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:52 am

zinkyusa;452295 wrote: and who is we Spot?

spot

koan

bill sikes

bryn mahr

hamas

hezbollah

iran

NK and the human chia pet

Don't you make a sweet little group?;)I'd so much rather be on the right side of the argument than popular in all the wrong quarters. It puzzles me - excuse me for sounding a note of frivolity - that American viewers cheer for the terrorists when it comes to watching Star Wars movies but still swallow their daily bowl of propaganda with their TV news and proudly cough it back up on demand. You give the impression that you regard your country as better than other countries, your fellow nationals as more valuable than other nationals, your ideals the only ideals worth having, your way the only way worth following. That petty parochialism is what I'm fighting wherever I find it. If I find an Iranian so misguided as to think that way, I'll do the same with him. Mostly the rest of the world is free of such levels of national delusion.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:06 am

spot;452308 wrote: I'd so much rather be on the right side of the argument than popular in all the wrong quarters. It puzzles me - excuse me for sounding a note of frivolity - that American viewers cheer for the terrorists when it comes to watching Star Wars movies but still swallow their daily bowl of propaganda with their TV news and proudly cough it back up on demand. You give the impression that you regard your country as better than other countries, your fellow nationals as more valuable than other nationals, your ideals the only ideals worth having, your way the only way worth following. That petty parochialism is what I'm fighting wherever I find it. If I find an Iranian so misguided as to think that way, I'll do the same with him. Mostly the rest of the world is free of such levels of national delusion.

You are just displaying your ignorance of America again Spot. Those are things you choose to believe I give you no such impressions. Don't let facts stand in the way of your delusions...

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:12 am

zinkyusa;452312 wrote: You are just displaying your ignorance of America again Spot. Those are things you choose to believe I give you no such impressions. Don't let facts stand in the way of your delusions...I leave the thread for others to read in the future, zinky. They'll read you, they'll read me, they'll be enlightened. I'm content to leave judgement to them in the light of events, not to either of us.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:13 am

spot;452316 wrote: I leave the thread for others to read in the future, zinky. They'll read you, they'll read me, they'll be enlightened. I'm content to leave judgement to them in the light of events, not to either of us.

Oh come on you know you want the last word.

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:19 am

zinkyusa;452319 wrote: Oh come on you know you want the last word.;)Then - just to pander to my nonsense for a moment - perhaps you could tell me whether American viewers do actually cheer for the terrorists when it comes to watching Star Wars movies? George Lucas definitely didn't seem to portray the Empire in favourable terms but who knows, perhaps the average viewer in your parts really does applaud whenever an Ewok gets shredded.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:24 am

spot;452322 wrote: Then - just to pander to my nonsense for a moment - perhaps you could tell me whether American viewers do actually cheer for the terrorists when it comes to watching Star Wars movies? George Lucas definitely didn't seem to portray the Empire in favourable terms but who knows, perhaps the average viewer in your parts really does applaud whenever an Ewok gets shredded.

That is such a silly question I can't believe you are seriously asking it..I'm not a star wars fan so i really have no idea..Not everyone in America has seen Star Wars. Wherever do you get your notions about Americans from Spot?

Bored_Wombat · Post by **Bored_Wombat** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:25 am

zinkyusa;452274 wrote: They have not freed anyone from opression, or stopped genocide anywhere.
Yes they have.

zinkyusa;452274 wrote: They spend most of their time and energy criticizing countries that are open, free, and democratic and avoid the places where they might die.
Not at all.

zinkyusa;452274 wrote: People like you and the other appeasers on these threads nearly cost Europe and Asia their freedom and cost many people their lives with your constant backing down from dictators and fear of making a stand..So be disgusted, I'll still sleep soundly tonight.

There's an oppressive regime in China.

Are you going to "back down", or invest heavily?

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:35 am

zinkyusa;452327 wrote: That is such a silly question I can't believe you are seriously asking it..I'm not a star wars fan so i really have no idea..Not everyone in America has seen Star Wars. Wherever do you get your notions about Americans from Spot?Reading history books and talking online.

The Star Wars movies question fascinates me - the division of the world into those who see the comparison instantly, and those who get irate at the question itself. I've never spoken to anyone who got irate who wasn't a US citizen.

Bored_Wombat · Post by **Bored_Wombat** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:42 pm

spot;452322 wrote: Then - just to pander to my nonsense for a moment - perhaps you could tell me whether American viewers do actually cheer for the terrorists when it comes to watching Star Wars movies? George Lucas definitely didn't seem to portray the Empire in favourable terms but who knows, perhaps the average viewer in your parts really does applaud whenever an Ewok gets shredded.
The state's the big bad guy in every Hollywood movie.

There's been nearly no terrorists are bad guy movies ...

There was one about a nuclear device in New York ...

But mostly the state is a evil big brother type empire

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:35 pm

spot;452322 wrote: ... perhaps the average viewer in your parts really does applaud whenever an Ewok gets shredded.

:yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl ok, breathe.... :yh_rotfl

I've suddenly got a picture of all the troops in Iraq chasing around little fuzzy dudes that are too darn cute to hate.

Or even a slogan: If only the world would treat the Palestinians like Ewoks!

Chookie · Post by **Chookie** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:22 pm

spot;451767 wrote: You're for it now, Chookie - it used to be just the English you had to fight, now we seem to have the US with us as well. A re-run of the Battle of Stirling Bridge with a half-dozen B2s five miles overhead should teach you a lesson.

No problem - you are still ouynumbered.

But, more seriously, the most terrifying thing about this is the assumption that "America knows best".

I have news for you - America does not know best. Especially when the current "Commander-in-Chief" needs a brain transplant to bring up to a room-temperature IQ.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:29 pm

Chookie;452808 wrote: No problem - you are still ouynumbered.

But, more seriously, the most terrifying thing about this is the assumption that "America knows best".

I have news for you - America does not know best. Especially when the current "Commander-in-Chief" needs a brain transplant to bring up to a room-temperature IQ.

The president doesn't have the power to bear the fate of this country as a whole...

Daffy Duck could be in office, and it wouldn't dictate the genre of this country.

bigears · Post by **bigears** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:51 pm

spotty and koala

what do you think would happen if the murderer was allowed to go free?

think about your answers now...

Bored_Wombat · Post by **Bored_Wombat** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:55 pm

bigears;452822 wrote: spotty and koala

what do you think would happen if the murderer was allowed to go free?

think about your answers now...
He'd run for parliament, and have to try to take over the world as leader of the opposition.

bigears · Post by **bigears** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:57 pm

Bored_Wombat;452825 wrote: He'd run for parliament, and have to try to take over the world as leader of the opposition.

those pinky and the brain cartoons spring to mind

Bored_Wombat · Post by **Bored_Wombat** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:09 pm

bigears;452827 wrote: those pinky and the brain cartoons spring to mind

"Khayr, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"

I think so, Saddam, but if the plural of mouse is mice, wouldn't the plural of spouse be spice?

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:17 pm

reading the last two pages of this thread makes me realise that sometimes I'm glad I fell asleep.

bigears · Post by **bigears** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:19 pm

koan;452840 wrote: reading the last two pages of this thread makes me realise that sometimes I'm glad I fell asleep.

snore away then koan....

obviously he treated his own people with the ultimate respect...

bigears · Post by **bigears** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:30 pm

Saddam we love you

please let us reinstate you

we loved the way you governed us really we did honest we did

bigears · Post by **bigears** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:54 pm

night night then koan

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

that's alright then

bigears · Post by **bigears** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:19 pm

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

off we go

to sleep then

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:23 am

bigears;452822 wrote: spotty and koala

what do you think would happen if the murderer was allowed to go free?

think about your answers now...Murderer? Who has clean hands, that they can invoke the protection of the courts? Iraq was a slaughter-mill before "liberation" and the liberators have managed to transform the country to a rather poorer but far more dangerous slaughter-mill than it had ever been in the past. I wouldn't just turn him free, I'd hand him back his palaces and the reins of government, what few are left. What would happen, you asked? He's far more suited to making a workable state out of Iraq than anyone else, bar none. I like secular republics which encourage women's education and employment. I think he'd strengthen the region. He's an asset to his people, not a liability. He's about to be judicially murdered because he embarrassed the USA, not for any other reason. Was the US homeland threatened by Iraq under his leadership? Not in the slightest. Did PNAC beg for the chance to export its armed muscle to the region? Go and read their publications, of course they did. Has PNAC got its way? After a fashion, yes. I do hope someone lines them up in a dock some day, but I seriously doubt the will of their fellow-countrymen to stomach the effort involved.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:35 am

Saddam seems to be making a calculated move to save his own hide.

Calling for Sunnis to stand down and attempting to show how only he can calm the unrest in Iraq. Saddam's efforts seem to be a claim that his death will result in continued destruction in Iraq and, if kept alive, he can stop the insurgency.

This theory was supported by a number of papers after the death sentence was passed down.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:36 am

bigears;452888 wrote: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

off we go

to sleep then

Even God rested.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:04 am

koan;453262 wrote: Saddam seems to be making a calculated move to save his own hide.

Calling for Sunnis to stand down and attempting to show how only he can calm the unrest in Iraq. Saddam's efforts seem to be a claim that his death will result in continued destruction in Iraq and, if kept alive, he can stop the insurgency.

This theory was supported by a number of papers after the death sentence was passed down.

Ha...

Are we supposed to believe this garb?

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:07 am

koan;453262 wrote: Saddam seems to be making a calculated move to save his own hide.

Calling for Sunnis to stand down and attempting to show how only he can calm the unrest in Iraq. Saddam's efforts seem to be a claim that his death will result in continued destruction in Iraq and, if kept alive, he can stop the insurgency.

This theory was supported by a number of papers after the death sentence was passed down.

the weasel is trying to save his butt.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:12 am

spot;453260 wrote: Murderer? Who has clean hands, that they can invoke the protection of the courts? Iraq was a slaughter-mill before "liberation" and the liberators have managed to transform the country to a rather poorer but far more dangerous slaughter-mill than it had ever been in the past.

And doing nothing is just going to leave that country in turmoil until someone does step in and do something as they are now. The whole idea is to create a stable government and economy so that it's people doesn't remain oppressed.

You care nothing about the people Saddam purposely starved so that his pockets were aligned with gold? The people he tortured and killed?

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:40 am

spot;453260 wrote: Murderer? Who has clean hands, that they can invoke the protection of the courts? Iraq was a slaughter-mill before "liberation" and the liberators have managed to transform the country to a rather poorer but far more dangerous slaughter-mill than it had ever been in the past. I wouldn't just turn him free, I'd hand him back his palaces and the reins of government, what few are left. What would happen, you asked? He's far more suited to making a workable state out of Iraq than anyone else, bar none. I like secular republics which encourage women's education and employment. I think he'd strengthen the region. He's an asset to his people, not a liability. He's about to be judicially murdered because he embarrassed the USA, not for any other reason. Was the US homeland threatened by Iraq under his leadership? Not in the slightest. Did PNAC beg for the chance to export its armed muscle to the region? Go and read their publications, of course they did. Has PNAC got its way? After a fashion, yes. I do hope someone lines them up in a dock some day, but I seriously doubt the will of their fellow-countrymen to stomach the effort involved.

We should have let Hitler make a workable state out of Europe using your logic then.

I don't disagree with your view of PNAC, they had way to much influence over the current administration and helped create the flawed policy in Iraq. I believe the just concluded midterm elections in the US indicate a backlash against those policies.

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:02 pm

K.Snyder;453280 wrote: And doing nothing is just going to leave that country in turmoil until someone does step in and do something as they are now. The whole idea is to create a stable government and economy so that it's people doesn't remain oppressed.

You care nothing about the people Saddam purposely starved so that his pockets were aligned with gold? The people he tortured and killed?"The whole idea" surely went to hell in a handbasket years ago. As for your criticism of Saddam in your final paragraph, that's par for the course in political circles, that. Very few countries avoid such behaviour. Perhaps you believe the US is above that sort of thing? I care a lot more when self-certified purveyors of "democracy" do it than I do when it's the sole means of political and personal survival.

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:03 pm

zinkyusa;453304 wrote: We should have let Hitler make a workable state out of Europe using your logic then.What do you mean "we"? The Soviet Union was a permanent guarantee against such ambitions.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:06 pm

spot;453355 wrote: What do you mean "we"? The Soviet Union was a permanent guarantee against such ambitions.

Only after 1941 I should think...If we are going to debate WW2 history we should probably start up a new thread don't you think?

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:11 pm

zinkyusa;453358 wrote: Only after 1941 I should think...If we are going to debate WW2 history we should probably start up a new thread don't you think?You think there was a workable state made out of Europe by the Third Reich before 1941, do you? And no, debating WW2 with you isn't high on my list of things I'll regret not doing when I look back on my accomplishments, whether in this thread or elsewhere. You raised the comparison, not I.

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:16 pm

guppy;453277 wrote: the weasel is trying to save his butt.For a moment there I thought you were referring to that dire catastrophe for American foreign policy, Rumsfeld, resigning today - an event which has raised at least one smile in this household.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:19 pm

I think a point that gets missed a lot regarding Saddam is that he was not a regular citizen described as "the quiet type" who suddenly turned out to be a mass murderer. He was the head of state of a country. As such he is supposed to have certain immunities.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:45 pm

koan;453371 wrote: I think a point that gets missed a lot regarding Saddam is that he was not a regular citizen described as "the quiet type" who suddenly turned out to be a mass murderer. He was the head of state of a country. As such he is supposed to have certain immunities.

Immunity from mass murder? Only in a world run by you, Spot and Hamas..

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:59 pm

zinkyusa;453396 wrote: Immunity from mass murder? Only in a world run by you, Spot and Hamas..If you read what was written, you'll see that you've read more into what was claimed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunity_f ... nal_law%29 discusses functional immunity. It also indicates that an International Court is the appropraite setting to discuss mass murder, not a kangaroo victors' court anxious to avoid any genuine attempt at prior investigation.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:01 pm

spot;453408 wrote: If you read what was written, you'll see that you've read more into what was claimed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunity_f ... nal_law%29 discusses functional immunity. It also indicates that an International Court is the appropraite setting to discuss mass murder, not a kangaroo victors' court anxious to avoid any genuine attempt at prior investigation.

and what gives the International Court the right to tell the duly elected government of Iraq that they can't prosecute their own national for mass murder?

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:43 pm

spot;453354 wrote: "The whole idea" surely went to hell in a handbasket years ago. As for your criticism of Saddam in your final paragraph, that's par for the course in political circles, that. Very few countries avoid such behaviour. Perhaps you believe the US is above that sort of thing? I care a lot more when self-certified purveyors of "democracy" do it than I do when it's the sole means of political and personal survival.

No I don't condone any unjust killings at all...

And I certainly wouldn't favor leaving Saddam Hussein in power over a flock of sheep. When I see a social structure that desperately needs to be reformed I am not hesitant in showing my approval, especially when that social structure is on the brink of famine, and blatant mass murder. But to some I suppose that's just acceptable politics, so as not to stir the bees nest?

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:52 pm

zinkyusa;453410 wrote: and what gives the International Court the right to tell the duly elected government of Iraq that they can't prosecute their own national for mass murder?Zinky, you're spraying wildly - where did I suggest that they either could or have? Historically, ex Heads of State are executed on the orders of revolutionary courts, not courts of stable regimes. Stable regimes - again in general - recognise functional immunity. The International Court was established in part specifically to address the issue of genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity, which are by definition not acts of state and hence not covered by functional immunity. What koan wrote, if you look back, was "As such he is supposed to have certain immunities" - you seem to drift further and further from that starting point each time you post.

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:57 pm

K.Snyder;453482 wrote: But to some I suppose that's just acceptable politics, so as not to stir the bees nest?Not in my case. I'm content with just international intervention. That's not what happened here. Iraq was invaded unilaterally, without UN authority, on the basis of a string of what turned out to be deliberately concocted lies told by a self-interested factional administration which is still pulling the strings. All of which is unacceptable.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:01 pm

spot;453493 wrote: Zinky, you're spraying wildly - where did I suggest that they either could or have? Historically, ex Heads of State are executed on the orders of revolutionary courts, not courts of stable regimes. Stable regimes - again in general - recognise functional immunity. The International Court was established in part specifically to address the issue of genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity, which are by definition not acts of state and hence not covered by functional immunity. What koan wrote, if you look back, was "As such he is supposed to have certain immunities" - you seem to drift further and further from that starting point each time you post.

your quote:

It also indicates that an International Court is the appropraite setting to discuss mass murder, not a kangaroo victors' court anxious to avoid any genuine attempt at prior investigation

who is the kangaroo court you are referring to? is this not the iraqis court? does this statement not imply the international court takes precedent over the iraqis court? i dispute your claim that stable regimes in general recognize functional immunity - if the accused is a mass murderer..