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My opinion is that different forms of discipline work for different children at different times. You cannot treat a rebellious teen like a two-year-old. There's no doubt that many parents just give up because they don't know how to approach each individual case.

I also know this. People will often announce that THEY are going to raise THEIR children DIFFERENTLY from how THEY were raised! LOL..and what they get is just the same problems from a different source.

Lulu2 wrote: My opinion is that different forms of discipline work for different children at different times. You cannot treat a rebellious teen like a two-year-old. There's no doubt that many parents just give up because they don't know how to approach each individual case.

I.


I think there is a great deal of truth in this.

weber wrote: The Straying Lamb


Wow! Shades of "Monty Python"!

ArnoldLayne wrote: I have to say that of all that is said here, there are very few words about giving love. Pondering the mysteries of Pi with your embryonic offspring appear to me to be detached of feelings, however important a lesson maths may be




I didn't think I had to state the obvious.

William Ess wrote: In fact since they were at boarding school, they probably received more beatings from their housemasters than they did from me.


I find it even more disturbing that people think it's ok for someone else to hit their children. If my children were naughty i would fully expect them to be told off and they have been brought up to respect every one but i'd find it totally unexceptible for anyone to put one finger on them.

I had an incident with my neighbour last year, he is in his 70's and obviously believes children should be seen and not heard. My son was outside playing swingball (the neighbour lives 4 doors down), he marched up and grabbed hold of my son and told him he was not allowed to play out the front, my daughter ran in the house screaming that a man had Sam, I went running out the house and how i controlled myself i'll never know, I took Sam indoors and called the police straight away.

The police came out and had to explain to the man that you can not lay a finger on a child it is a criminal offence, he was cautioned and told next time he'd be charged.

I'm glad your children have done well in life but i wonder if they have the same opinion as you??

[quote=Katy1]Hi all,



I was just wondering how any of you felt about smacking (or other physical chastisement) children as part of their disciplining. It's a hot topic here in the UK and is still legal as long as it is done in a measured way and doesn't leave marks (apparently) although children's charities are always calling for it to be made illegal.



I was smacked as a child, I can still remember a few of them, the worst usually came from me shouting 'that didn't hurt!' and then running off with my Mum in hot pursuit!)



Were any of you smacked/spanked as children and did it harm you or do you think it's OK?



Katy:)



i was beaten by a very sadistic father who also beat my brothers and sisters



as well as my mother , i had to take many a savage beating trying to protect them, with sticks belts iron bars shovels kickings you name it i got it



his other favourite was mental abuse you know screaming at me i was ugly and useless and then i,d have to repeat it i,d have to say i,m really ugly i,m useless or i,d get beaten again



my life was a living hell i left home at 15 to go and live in a broken down van honest



the physical abuse was terrifying at the time it does not affect me know i took up mma mixed martial arts so i could protect my loved ones and myself

i hate all bullies and violence except in self defence



its the mental torture that still haunts me although not blowing my own trumpet i,m probably a 7 out of ten i feel ugly , iknow deep down although i,m nothing special i am ok looking but i feel ugly



any person that hits or abuses a child is a bully i have never hit my kids i have always worked on if your their best friend they will respect you and work with you , if your hitting them they may see you as the enemy and go against you, and one day they will grow up and not be scared of you any more .then what you gona do ? try and make friends , it may be to late for like me they could grow up to hate their tyrant op presser

I think there should be some kind of line drawn here. I spanked my kids but I didn't punch them, beat them, subject them to violent abuse. When they continually disobeyed me, I would spank them within reason. We seem to be talking 'not touching' kids or 'violent abuse'. To my knowledge, OP was not about 'violent abuse'. Some don't believe in any spanking at all, which is fine. But I have seen some results of that and it's sometimes not much better, if any, that spanking within reason.

Somewhere a poster talked about swatting her kids out of frustration and then loving and making up. Spanking within reason doesn't have to come from total and all the time frustration and anger. It can come in a reasonable way to teach a child to listen.

And even those here who confess of being violently abused but they are wonderful people. Have problems, but then who doesn't.

What some of us have just explained is that there is no difference between "spanking" and abuse. There is no line to draw. Those who say "Oh I spanked but..." are just making excuses. If you can't work with your kid without hitting him, then you are no better than that child and you don't deserve his respect and I'll go further and say you shouldn't be a parent. I have never seen a scene where hitting a kid would be better than mature, healthy discipline but I keep hearing that anyway.



Yes, some of us who were abused are wonderful people and don't you think for a minute that we haven't had to work our a$$es off undoing the damage that was done to us. Some of us still do.

I've thought bout this all day, and only got more and more mad. Here's why! Some folks here cannot see the clear line between a spanking and beating. Also I'm the type of person who gets really pissed off when someone tries to tell me how I should or should not raise my kids, when they have no expertise. I'm sorry, if you do not have children of your own, you don't know what your talking bout. You haven't had the back talking, temper tantrums, ect that comes with raising kids.

Before I had my children I used to comment on the way my sisternlaw rarely disciplined her kids, she just ignored their tantrums, rudeness at the table, and all the other behaviors that I found offensive. I always commented how when I had children they were gonna be perfect little gentlemen and ladies. Boy did I eat crow after I had my kids. I learned real fast I had no room to make comments on how others raise their kids.

No one is perfect, there is no such thing as perfect parents, or the perfect discipline system. What may work for others, doesn't work for all.

And just to make clear those of us do employ spankings as a form of punishment doesn't mean it's an everyday occurrence. Spankings are rare in my house, but they have occurred.

RedGlitter wrote: What some of us have just explained is that there is no difference between "spanking" and abuse. There is no line to draw. Those who say "Oh I spanked but..." are just making excuses. If you can't work with your kid without hitting him, then you are no better than that child and you don't deserve his respect and I'll go further and say you shouldn't be a parent. I have never seen a scene where hitting a kid would be better than mature, healthy discipline but I keep hearing that anyway.



Yes, some of us who were abused are wonderful people and don't you think for a minute that we haven't had to work our a$$es off undoing the damage that was done to us. Some of us still do.


Then you are telling me RedGlitter

that I abused by kids and that is venturing being all knowing and all judging and I really don't think you should do that. I don't place a all time judgement on noe touching kids. However, if that is what turns you on, go for it. But I don't appreciate being called an abuser.

Can we dissociate discussion of the topic from becoming a reflection on individuals? Otherwise how do we express an opinion without the thread falling into a slanging match?

spot wrote: Can we dissociate discussion of the topic from becoming a reflection on individuals? Otherwise how do we express an opinion without the thread falling into a slanging match?


Ah so. Spots right. I tend to do that. No mor of thet :guitarist

spot wrote: Can we dissociate discussion of the topic from becoming a reflection on individuals? Otherwise how do we express an opinion without the thread falling into a slanging match?


a-ha ha ...you made a funny when you didn't mean it. :sneaky:

ARgi wrote: a-ha ha ...you made a funny when you didn't mean it. :sneaky:


Thanks ARgi........hehehe.....I didn't pick up on that. it is a goodie:wah:

thanks red glitter



thats what i was trying to say

there is no line between just slightly beating a person than really beating a person



if you have to resort to violence to get your point of view across it dont matter if its a kid a grown up or even a pet its abuse its wrong



and if you have to use violence or even the threat of violence impose your will on a child



a i feel sorry for you and b i feel very sorry your child

spot wrote: Can we dissociate discussion of the topic from becoming a reflection on individuals? Being a parent is the most important job in the world. It takes up a person's whole life, or should, to be done right. It becomes a large part of a person's identity. It's not realistic to ask a parent to resist being offended when someone paints with such a broad brush as RedGlitter and Jimbo have.



I've been spanked - striped up real good. Did I deserve it? Dunno; I had other things on my mind at the time. Could it have been done differently? Probably. Would it have worked? No way to know.



Here's what I'm absolutely certain of. Condemnation does nothing positive. It alienates the very people you (collective you) want to change. If that's what you're after, go for it. If not, a far better tack would be to 'Seek first to Understand, then be Understood.' It builds rapport and makes the other person/people more receptive to any positive alternatives you may suggest.

Accountable wrote: Condemnation does nothing positive. It alienates the very people you (collective you) want to change.If anyone feels that I have criticized their personal behaviour anywhere in this thread then I humbly beg their pardon for it. I had thought we were discussing Katy's OP of "how any of you felt about smacking". It must be difficult to read suggestions that sparing the rod will result in a spoiled child or that "the most neurotic individuals in today's society seem to be the ones who weren't given the occasional hiding" without seeing it as a suggestion that one's own children are somehow damaged by the lack of such a thoughtful and considerate upbringing. Had I only realized instead that I could have forced them to "grow up with respect and admiration for their peers" I would, of course, have lined them up in a row and kicked them weekly. I did, after all, so want them to become automatically conformist.

well said spot of course any thing i have said is only my opinion ,and any one disagrees with me I'll send my dad round and he will willingly kick the crap out of them , he has had years of practice if your young and small and cant hit back so much the better :sneaky:

spot i'm not gona inflict my views on this thread any more but i have some really posh neighbours that have moved into the area I'd like your input on my thread

make the neighbors think





cheers mate and sorry if i offended any one its only my thoughts and mine alone

SnoozeControl wrote: Can we dissociate discussion of the topic from becoming a reflection on individuals? Otherwise how do we express an opinion without the thread falling into a slanging match?Nice job. Will you irony my shirt next? :rolleyes:

SnoozeControl wrote: Can we dissociate discussion of the topic from becoming a reflection on individuals? Otherwise how do we express an opinion without the thread falling into a slanging match?Snooze! You spoke to me! My quota of happiness for the day just boiled over.

Caught in the act again, was I? And I try so hard when I try.

Accountable wrote: Being a parent is the most important job in the world. It takes up a person's whole life, or should, to be done right. It becomes a large part of a person's identity. It's not realistic to ask a parent to resist being offended when someone paints with such a broad brush as RedGlitter and Jimbo have.



I've been spanked - striped up real good. Did I deserve it? Dunno; I had other things on my mind at the time. Could it have been done differently? Probably. Would it have worked? No way to know.



Here's what I'm absolutely certain of. Condemnation does nothing positive. It alienates the very people you (collective you) want to change. If that's what you're after, go for it. If not, a far better tack would be to 'Seek first to Understand, then be Understood.' It builds rapport and makes the other person/people more receptive to any positive alternatives you may suggest.


It's called guilt. There is a saying "every dog smells his own sh*t." Jimbo and I have pointed fingers at no one in particular but it does seem as if we've hit a few nerves. Too bad. I call it as I see it and I make no apologies.

RedGlitter wrote: It's called guilt. There is a saying "every dog smells his own sh*t." Jimbo and I have pointed fingers at no one in particular but it does seem as if we've hit a few nerves. Too bad. I call it as I see it and I make no apologies.


"every dog smells his own sh*t."



Is it not possible to conduct the debate in a civilised language?

That's what the asterisk is for William.

RedGlitter wrote: It's called guilt. There is a saying "every dog smells his own sh*t." Jimbo and I have pointed fingers at no one in particular but it does seem as if we've hit a few nerves. Too bad. I call it as I see it and I make no apologies.


don't hurt yourself patting yourself on the back :rolleyes:

I agree, Floppy.

Pinky wrote: Civilised is as civilised does.

I think giving a child a whack or two with a cane or paddle belongs more to a dickensian world than it does in our so called civilised world. So do the people that advocate it.




I think that if you look at the self-esteem prevalent in Dicken's time and the achievement of that age and compare it to the neurotic self-serving pathos that passes for society in most parts of the western world, you mught agree that they knew something we have - to our loss - forgotten.

flopstock wrote: It's not okay to spank a child, but it is okay to play mind games with them? To emotionally torture them? I don't think so.



You have rules of behavior.

Here are the consequences for NOT behaving acceptably.

Try to changes the circumstances that are causing the unacceptable behavior.

You are told to correct your behavior.

You are taken out of the situation where the incorrect behavior is occurring.

You are reasoned with.

You lose a privilege.

You get your ass swatted.



And you teach them that a recurrence of the offense skips them ahead to whatever level they were at when the inappropriate behavior occurred last time. You don't keep going back to square one if square one is not working.



That is not anger or acting out unjustly against your kid. That is teaching your kids that there is a consequence to their behavior. That is teaching your kids to think before they act.



And BTW, do you folks advocate trying to reason with a 2 year old reaching for something dangerous, or a smack of the hand? It may smell of Pavlov spot, but pain is a quick and effective tool of the learning process.





The world is full of totally F.U folks who should never have been allowed to procreate. Take my parents, please..:wah: .



But this route the pc world has taken, black/white on an issue that has a whole range that should be available to it, is even worse, IMO. Parents are no longer allowed to parent and yet are blamed for the behavior of their children. People are no longer able to distinguish between discipline and abuse. Anyone in favor of using a swat as a level as punishment, is viewed the same as the person who knocks their kid upside the head to wake them up in the morning. That's just wrong.




yup... consistency is the key. random punishment in any form doesn't teach anything.

Pinky wrote: You're making a direct link between self-esteem and corporal punishment - if you really think that, then I seriously question your sanity! As for the 'good old days' of Victorian society, I suppose this means you'd have small children climbing chimneys and poor people back in the work houses and debtor's prison too?

What about all the pickpockets, petty thieves rife in those times? Beating had such a positive effect on them, didn't it?

What about the self-serving attitude prevalent in those times - there is sufficient evidence to say that looking after number one was the common mindset, and most didn't care what happened to others or what they suffered.

If this is the benefit of corporal punishment, then I'm glad it's illegal here.


i would have to agree ...every era has it's downfalls.

Pinky wrote: 1.You're making a direct link between self-esteem and corporal punishment

2. if you really think that, then I seriously question your sanity!

3. As for the 'good old days' of Victorian society, I suppose this means you'd have small children climbing chimneys and poor people back in the work houses and debtor's prison too?

4. What about all the pickpockets, petty thieves rife in those times? Beating had such a positive effect on them, didn't it?

5.What about the self-serving attitude prevalent in those times - there is sufficient evidence to say that looking after number one was the common mindset, and most didn't care what happened to others or what they suffered.

If this is the benefit of corporal punishment, then I'm glad it's illegal here.


1. An indirect link.

2. Are you clinically qualified

3. It was the Victorians who abolished these institutions.

4. They were generally the one's who had grown up without parental influence. ie with no corporal punishment.

5. I think you should look at the industrial history of the period before making an ass of yourself. Many of the schools, houses, churches and similar amenities were built for purely philanthropic reasons by the entreprenurial families of the time.

Speaking of making an ass of oneself you "spanking" advocates are doing a whole lot of braying. You sound like the whiny children you don't know of any other way to control.:rolleyes:



Flopstock, regarding the slapping hands of the 3 yo going for the stove, try reading the whole thread before you go off next time. :sneaky:



Sheryl, I thought you went shopping and were going to come back saying something profound. Is that your best?



William Ess, having studied the victorians, culture and time period for 30 years, your remarks about them are full of it.



Wow this thread shows a lack of respect for kids as human beings and for intelligence itself.

Pinky wrote:

What about all the pickpockets, petty thieves rife in those (Victorian) times? Beating had such a positive effect on them, didn't it?


Isn't crime at near-record levels here in Great Britian?



Pinky wrote:

What about the self-serving attitude prevalent in those times - there is sufficient evidence to say that looking after number one was the common mindset, and most didn't care what happened to others or what they suffered.


I though that this current caring, sharing society was supposed to be the

most selfish ever, this being blamed on successive governments since Maggie?



Pinky wrote:

If this is the benefit of corporal punishment, then I'm glad it's illegal here.


Not sure I'd like to link corporal punishment (not quite illegal here in Britian)

directly with the ills of society!

William Ess wrote: Many of the schools, houses, churches and similar amenities were built for purely philanthropic reasons by the entreprenurial families of the time.To talk briefly down this diversion, what springs to my mind in terms of philanthropy, for the time, is Peabody, Cardinal Manning, the Quakers and Methodism. You feel the Church of England ventured among the great unwashed? Not until the nineteen sixties in any proportion that might have counted. William, I have little idea what form of society you're advocating a return to, but it's not turning full circle this time. You're dead in the water.

OK, I've now taken enough slaps without speaking more explicitly. This talk of "mental torture" as an alternative to corporal punishment is so far removed from my experience that I have no idea how to even try to discuss it. It's not permissible, it's a vile idea. More to the point, and speaking from experience, it's not necessary.

The only way to deal with slappers of children is in the same terms as dealing with the breakers of bones. They'll not stop otherwise. Beyond that, if they can't learn to handle children without compulsion then that's another generation wasted. The law and education will have to be the way forward for their children instead, when it's their turn to learn child-rearing as a civil contract rather than a tyranny.

RedGlitter wrote:

Wow this thread shows a lack of respect for kids as human beings and for intelligence itself.


I'd say it seems to be degenerating into a slanging-match. Perhaps some more

threads about c1RKuM51510N, the Jewish state, and body odour should be

started.

RedGlitter wrote: Speaking of making an ass of oneself you "spanking" advocates are doing a whole lot of braying. You sound like the whiny children you don't know of any other way to control.:rolleyes:



Flopstock, regarding the slapping hands of the 3 yo going for the stove, try reading the whole thread before you go off next time. :sneaky:



Sheryl, I thought you went shopping and were going to come back saying something profound. Is that your best?



William Ess, having studied the victorians, culture and time period for 30 years, your remarks about them are full of it.



Wow this thread shows a lack of respect for kids as human beings and for intelligence itself.


teaching by good example is very effective.



two thongs don't make a right... (oh fiddlesticks...i think i got that wrong :p)

ARgi wrote: teaching by good example is very effective.



two thongs don't make a right... (oh fiddlesticks...i think i got that wrong :p)


I believe two thongs = four cheeks ARgi:wah:

spot wrote: To talk briefly down this diversion, what springs to my mind in terms of philanthropy, for the time, is Peabody, Cardinal Manning, the Quakers and Methodism. You feel the Church of England ventured among the great unwashed? Not until the nineteen sixties in any proportion that might have counted. William, I have little idea what form of society you're advocating a return to, but it's not turning full circle this time. You're dead in the water.

OK, I've now taken enough slaps without speaking more explicitly. This talk of "mental torture" as an alternative to corporal punishment is so far removed from my experience that I have no idea how to even try to discuss it. It's not permissible, it's a vile idea. More to the point, and speaking from experience, it's not necessary.

The only way to deal with slappers of children is in the same terms as dealing with the breakers of bones. They'll not stop otherwise. Beyond that, if they can't learn to handle children without compulsion then that's another generation wasted. The law and education will have to be the way forward for their children instead, when it's their turn to learn child-rearing as a civil contract rather than a tyranny.


so you're saying that someone who at times smacks their kid on the bottom is someone without self-control and must be stopped or they will make a turn for the worse? ... if not then i don't see that anyone who's posted about being smacked as a child (with the exemption of abusive beatings) has felt any long-lasting ill effects from it (myself included)... you make your point purely on principle.

zinkyusa wrote: I believe two thongs = four cheeks ARgi:wah:


more for the smackin' :sneaky:

ARgi wrote: if not then i don't see that anyone who's posted about being smacked as a child (with the exemption of abusive beatings) has felt any long-lasting ill effects from it (myself included)... you make your point purely on principle.I haven't discussed being smacked as a child - or of being mentally distressed - in this open thread because I find it hard to the point of impossibility to discuss it in public even at this distance. Silence on the matter has nothing to do with memory. I nevertheless make my point on the basis of vivid recall.

spot wrote: I haven't discussed being smacked as a child - or of being mentally distressed - in this open thread because I find it hard to the point of impossibility to discuss it in public even at this distance. Silence on the matter has nothing to do with memory. I nevertheless make my point on the basis of vivid recall.


so...you were beaten. ? i would not ask anyone else, but i think you might enjoy some mental tango.

RedGlitter wrote: Speaking of making an ass of oneself you "spanking" advocates are doing a whole lot of braying. You sound like the whiny children you don't know of any other way to control.:rolleyes:



Flopstock, regarding the slapping hands of the 3 yo going for the stove, try reading the whole thread before you go off next time. :sneaky:



Sheryl, I thought you went shopping and were going to come back saying something profound. Is that your best?



William Ess, having studied the victorians, culture and time period for 30 years, your remarks about them are full of it.



Wow this thread shows a lack of respect for kids as human beings and for intelligence itself.


apparently you missed my post from yesterday. Unless your just saying all my posts are unintelligent.

RedGlitter wrote: Speaking of making an ass of oneself you "spanking" advocates are doing a whole lot of braying. You sound like the whiny children you don't know of any other way to control.



Flopstock, regarding the slapping hands of the 3 yo going for the stove, try reading the whole thread before you go off next time. :sneaky:



Sheryl, I thought you went shopping and were going to come back saying something profound. Is that your best?



William Ess, having studied the victorians, culture and time period for 30 years, your remarks about them are full of it.



Wow this thread shows a lack of respect for kids as human beings and for intelligence itself.


Red

I may admire your content

But I disagree with your form

This is how threads go downhill FAST.

Just my opinion :-6

ARgi wrote: so...you were beaten. ? i would not ask anyone else, but i think you might enjoy some mental tango.On the contrary I wouldn't, for reasons which are quite legitimate but not generally known here. I entirely broke my mother's ability to control me at the age of ten, it isn't a matter I have any way of changing or coming to terms with and it damaged everyone concerned, not least my parents' subsequent relationship. It certainly isn't an area I want to explore any futher here.