Have We Learned Any Lessons?

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QUINNSCOMMENTARY
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Have We Learned Any Lessons?

Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

As John McCain recently said, only a fool or fraud talks tough or romantically about war. Yet, there seems to be constant war around the world.

We are afraid of war and rightly so of course, but that fear may actually lead us not away from but toward conflicts. In the last century, much of the world ignored the growing militarism of Japan, the growing power of Hitler and his message, the fascists in Italy and even the horror of post revolution Russia. Is it because we cannot comprehend such evil, or that our fear of war helps us to simply look the other way and hope the political rhetoric is just that, rhetoric. But of course it often is not only rhetoric, but rather setting the stage for a single person to acquire power on the back of some scapegoat and isn’t’ it plain old scary that millions of human beings can so easily be cajoled to follow this path, over and over throughout the centuries?

Is today any different? Are we guilty of not taking the rhetoric from the Middle East governments or Muslim leaders seriously? Is it just too hard to accept that the outspoken call for the destruction of non-Muslims, or America or of Israel is real? Who could have conceived the possibility of September 11, 2001 any more than December 7, 1941?

The Middle East may seem far away to many of us, but the rhetoric of hate is in our backyard and throughout Europe, often under the guise of religion.

As a recent article in the Wall Street Journal asked, have we learned the lessons of the last century? I fear not. We seem incapable of seeing what is before our eyes.:-1:-1:-1
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw



"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



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Post by Predator Prevention »

People have been asking similar questions of war since the first war was fought I'm sure. Seems to me the only thing of war that's ever learned is how to improve the weapons in which these wars are fought.
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Post by K.Snyder »

To be defensive is to be aggressive in the eyes of peace...

The problem lies in the lack of knowledge of peace...Not in the knowledge of war...

People are all too often ready to name people a threat just because they're different...Preemptive is becoming far too comfortable for many and the people who don't question their duty within the armed service are to blame as much as anyone...
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Post by Predator Prevention »

K.Snyder;896498 wrote: To be defensive is to be aggressive in the eyes of peace...

The problem lies in the lack of knowledge of peace...Not in the knowledge of war...

People are all too often ready to name people a threat just because they're different...Preemptive is becoming far too comfortable for many and the people who don't question their duty within the armed service are to blame as much as anyone...


People who don't question their duty within the armed service? How so?
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Post by K.Snyder »

Predator Prevention;896505 wrote: People who don't question their duty within the armed service? How so?


Would you jump off of a bridge if someone told you to?...

Would you then jump off of a bridge just because the person to whom told you were wearing the uniform of your country?...
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Post by Predator Prevention »

K.Snyder;896511 wrote: Would you jump off of a bridge if someone told you to?...

Would you then jump off of a bridge just because the person to whom told you were wearing the uniform of your country?...




I understand where you're coming from with that....I think. I do know that loyalty and service dedication must be thought about before they even put the uniform on. I'm a military wife. We are proud and dedicated. My husband doesn't WANT to go to war, but when you choose the armed services, you have chosen to do what they ask of you, in the hopes that you can trust that they ask you to do what is best for the country you are wishing to serve...........within certain moral boundaries ofcourse, my husband will do what the government asks of him because that is his duty.
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Post by K.Snyder »

Predator Prevention;896518 wrote: I understand where you're coming from with that....I think. I do know that loyalty and service dedication must be thought about before they even put the uniform on. I'm a military wife. We are proud and dedicated. My husband doesn't WANT to go to war, but when you choose the armed services, you have chosen to do what they ask of you, in the hopes that you can trust that they ask you to do what is best for the country you are wishing to serve...........within certain moral boundaries ofcourse, my husband will do what the government asks of him because that is his duty.


As for myself I believe at any given time I were opposed to anything I've been asked of myself by my country or not I would drop it faster than a 5 year old drops the lit end of a cigerette...
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Post by K.Snyder »

Predator Prevention;896518 wrote: I understand where you're coming from with that....I think. I do know that loyalty and service dedication must be thought about before they even put the uniform on.


I would like to stress upon the point that just because a government had been right in the past about any given thing doesn't mean that they will always be right in the future...Hence why I feel it's needed to always question authority...Authority isn't divine right...But the people who have it would like to lead you to believe it is...
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Post by Predator Prevention »

K.Snyder;896554 wrote: I would like to stress upon the point that just because a government had been right in the past about any given thing doesn't mean that they will always be right in the future...Hence why I feel it's needed to always question authority...Authority isn't divine right...But the people who have it would like to lead you to believe it is...


Yet a country without authority, wouldn't be much of a country. Those in place of authority do have a tendency to take advantage of it, and there lies the problem.....a "god" complex.
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Post by gmc »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;883819 wrote: As John McCain recently said, only a fool or fraud talks tough or romantically about war. Yet, there seems to be constant war around the world.

We are afraid of war and rightly so of course, but that fear may actually lead us not away from but toward conflicts. In the last century, much of the world ignored the growing militarism of Japan, the growing power of Hitler and his message, the fascists in Italy and even the horror of post revolution Russia. Is it because we cannot comprehend such evil, or that our fear of war helps us to simply look the other way and hope the political rhetoric is just that, rhetoric. But of course it often is not only rhetoric, but rather setting the stage for a single person to acquire power on the back of some scapegoat and isn’t’ it plain old scary that millions of human beings can so easily be cajoled to follow this path, over and over throughout the centuries?

Is today any different? Are we guilty of not taking the rhetoric from the Middle East governments or Muslim leaders seriously? Is it just too hard to accept that the outspoken call for the destruction of non-Muslims, or America or of Israel is real? Who could have conceived the possibility of September 11, 2001 any more than December 7, 1941?

The Middle East may seem far away to many of us, but the rhetoric of hate is in our backyard and throughout Europe, often under the guise of religion.

As a recent article in the Wall Street Journal asked, have we learned the lessons of the last century? I fear not. We seem incapable of seeing what is before our eyes.:-1:-1:-1


Bit simplistic. Japan wasn't ignored, neither was Italy but realistically there wasn't much anybody could do about it. After losing the better part of a generation in ww1 not many wanted another war unless it became unavoidable. Militarism was hardly confined to japan, italy and germany. the phillipines and hawaii didn't just wake up one day and decide to be american.

Hitler had widespread support elsewhere in the world- a brief look at who was financing him in the early years should make you, as an american, blush with embarrassment as should your rejection of jewish refugees especially since many seem to have selective memories. The anti semitism and it's consequences while there was such a gradual thing many just turned a blind eye and woke up one day to find it in full force.

It was a timeof tremndous social change-Hitler and used fear to introduce changes that gradually let him get his hands on power. Interestingly enough the first thing he did was suspend the law preventing people being held without a trial. Anyone objecting clearly supported the revolutionaries.

Many supported his policies especially against communists and anti Semitism was not a peculiarly german phenomenon-indeed up until Hitler germany was a lot more tolerant than many nations which is one of the reasons the change is so chocking. One of the reasons so few actually got out was because so many other countries closed their borders to them they couldn't leave. the only occupied country that didn't hand over the Jews was Holland.

Post revolution Russia western nations did intervene militarily but didn't have the troops or the will to continue a long drawn out war. Did you american troops were involved fighting with the white russians

Is today any different? Are we guilty of not taking the rhetoric from the Middle East governments or Muslim leaders seriously? Is it just too hard to accept that the outspoken call for the destruction of non-Muslims, or America or of Israel is real? Who could have conceived the possibility of September 11, 2001 any more than December 7, 1941?


Course it's real but the likelihood of anyone managing it is remote in the extreme. If you want to combat extremism don't do things that gain them support and nevr abandon your own principles. If you would fight monsters best not to become like them.

If you would learn from the last century you need to know what actually happened.
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Post by K.Snyder »

Predator Prevention;897197 wrote: Yet a country without authority, wouldn't be much of a country. Those in place of authority do have a tendency to take advantage of it, and there lies the problem.....a "god" complex.


Questioning them reduces the susceptibility to which the government in question can take advantage of those to whom they govern...
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Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

gmc;897338 wrote: Bit simplistic. Japan wasn't ignored, neither was Italy but realistically there wasn't much anybody could do about it. After losing the better part of a generation in ww1 not many wanted another war unless it became unavoidable. Militarism was hardly confined to japan, italy and germany. the phillipines and hawaii didn't just wake up one day and decide to be american.

Hitler had widespread support elsewhere in the world- a brief look at who was financing him in the early years should make you, as an american, blush with embarrassment as should your rejection of jewish refugees especially since many seem to have selective memories. The anti semitism and it's consequences while there was such a gradual thing many just turned a blind eye and woke up one day to find it in full force.

It was a timeof tremndous social change-Hitler and used fear to introduce changes that gradually let him get his hands on power. Interestingly enough the first thing he did was suspend the law preventing people being held without a trial. Anyone objecting clearly supported the revolutionaries.

Many supported his policies especially against communists and anti Semitism was not a peculiarly german phenomenon-indeed up until Hitler germany was a lot more tolerant than many nations which is one of the reasons the change is so chocking. One of the reasons so few actually got out was because so many other countries closed their borders to them they couldn't leave. the only occupied country that didn't hand over the Jews was Holland.

Post revolution Russia western nations did intervene militarily but didn't have the troops or the will to continue a long drawn out war. Did you american troops were involved fighting with the white russians



Course it's real but the likelihood of anyone managing it is remote in the extreme. If you want to combat extremism don't do things that gain them support and nevr abandon your own principles. If you would fight monsters best not to become like them.

If you would learn from the last century you need to know what actually happened.


Can't argue with much of what you say, there were a number of prominent Americans who fueled the flames as well, like Ford and Lindbergh. But isn't that the point, don't some of those same conditions and reactions exist today around the world?
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw



"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



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Post by gmc »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;899094 wrote: Can't argue with much of what you say, there were a number of prominent Americans who fueled the flames as well, like Ford and Lindbergh. But isn't that the point, don't some of those same conditions and reactions exist today around the world?


very true The middle east is going from feudal society to modern democratic industrial society in one leap. Our progress to the same point took two or three centuries and it wasn't exactly a painless process. Japan did it in a century and a half china and Japan fell off the rails somewhere along the way The US hung to our tailcoats but had it's own upheavals. It's less than a hundred years since the western countries became democracies in a sense we would recognise as such. None of us can claim to be peace loving nations who have always done things for the best possible reasons.

Dissent shows itself either politically or if the structures aren't in place then religion plays a large part. Arguably the protestant reformation was more about economics and politics than religion but the language of political debate and social discord was still evolving.

islamic extremism is more about the situation at home than it is about anything the west has done though one lesson that seems to have been missed is that mixing it up in other countries might have worked in the days of empire but in the 21st century it's time to find a better way.

Realistically the only threat any middle eastern country poses is if they refuse to sell us oil. Osama is no hitler He is not in control of an industrially advanced nation state and in any case Europeans nation are amongst the most aggressive on the planet if annoy us enough and we have bigger and better weapons. One lesson you could take from history is to look at how hitler used fear to get control, first thing he did was suspend the right to a trial and lock up anyone he claimed was a threat to the state. Anyone objecting was of course in support of the communists and as such could be ignored-or locked up. Bit like if you don't support the war you support the terrorists or you don't support the troops which seems a common theme in the US. Although since I don't actually get any american news apart from CNN I don't know how accurate that actually is.

The US never really finished the left/right political debate. You seem to have got hung up on the left being a bogey man whereas to us it was fascism and nazism. It's interesting watching you have it now about things like healthcare.
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Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

gmc;899596 wrote: very true The middle east is going from feudal society to modern democratic industrial society in one leap. Our progress to the same point took two or three centuries and it wasn't exactly a painless process. Japan did it in a century and a half china and Japan fell off the rails somewhere along the way The US hung to our tailcoats but had it's own upheavals. It's less than a hundred years since the western countries became democracies in a sense we would recognise as such. None of us can claim to be peace loving nations who have always done things for the best possible reasons.

Dissent shows itself either politically or if the structures aren't in place then religion plays a large part. Arguably the protestant reformation was more about economics and politics than religion but the language of political debate and social discord was still evolving.

islamic extremism is more about the situation at home than it is about anything the west has done though one lesson that seems to have been missed is that mixing it up in other countries might have worked in the days of empire but in the 21st century it's time to find a better way.

Realistically the only threat any middle eastern country poses is if they refuse to sell us oil. Osama is no hitler He is not in control of an industrially advanced nation state and in any case Europeans nation are amongst the most aggressive on the planet if annoy us enough and we have bigger and better weapons. One lesson you could take from history is to look at how hitler used fear to get control, first thing he did was suspend the right to a trial and lock up anyone he claimed was a threat to the state. Anyone objecting was of course in support of the communists and as such could be ignored-or locked up. Bit like if you don't support the war you support the terrorists or you don't support the troops which seems a common theme in the US. Although since I don't actually get any american news apart from CNN I don't know how accurate that actually is.

The US never really finished the left/right political debate. You seem to have got hung up on the left being a bogey man whereas to us it was fascism and nazism. It's interesting watching you have it now about things like healthcare.


I certainly appreciate your perspective, to be honest I have never had a dialog with anyone outside the US and it is quite refreshing.

I would very much like your perspective on health care. I have been a corporate benefits officer for over 40 years trying to deal with health care issues and in the past I was an advisor to the fedral government and on the board of directors of several health plans.

The problem in the US is that we don't know what the problem is. Politicians harp on the uninsured and yet I see the fundamanetal problem as cost and greatly fear the expansion of coverage without coming to grips with cost first as it seems to me that under that scenario down the road costs will have to be controlled with some form of rationing or restrictions ditated by the government.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw



"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



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Post by gmc »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;899666 wrote: I certainly appreciate your perspective, to be honest I have never had a dialog with anyone outside the US and it is quite refreshing.

I would very much like your perspective on health care. I have been a corporate benefits officer for over 40 years trying to deal with health care issues and in the past I was an advisor to the fedral government and on the board of directors of several health plans.

The problem in the US is that we don't know what the problem is. Politicians harp on the uninsured and yet I see the fundamanetal problem as cost and greatly fear the expansion of coverage without coming to grips with cost first as it seems to me that under that scenario down the road costs will have to be controlled with some form of rationing or restrictions dictated by the government.


I've never really had a dialogue with anyone from the states apart from this forum. It's fascinating since you do have some very weird ideas. Maybe it's because we are familiar thanks to tv and films and most of us go abroad each year so we are fairly eclectic about things. Whereas all you get is america and american media so maybe you think the rest of the world is just like america but with different languages.

We start from a totally different cultural perspective. Our democracy has been constricted from below with the people reaching up from below and squeezing the testicles of the ruling classes to get concessions. They've always been frightened enough to give way eventually. (OK it's not that simple) Kind of a constant state of change and we don't have a written constitution so we don't waste time arguing about what someone actually meant. Americans don't seem to think they have the right to demand anything of their government in the way of social reform. You seem hung up on the idea that government involvement in social welfare in any way is communism. Socialism in europe has kind of moved on from nowadays even out right wing parties accept what were once exclusively socialist ideas. Any party mucking up the NHS or is perceived to be tends to lose at the next election One man one vote used to be radical as well.

You might find this of interest

-the philosophy behind our welfare state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beveridge_Report

The Report offered three guiding principles to its recommendations:

1. Proposals for the future should not limited by "sectional interests" in learning from experience and that a "revolutionary moment in the world's history is a time for revolutions, not for patching".

2. Social insurance is only one part of a "comprehensive policy of social progress". The five giants on the road to reconstruction were Want, Disease, Ignorance, Squalor and Idleness.

3. Policies of social security "must be achieved by co-operation between the State and the individual", with the state securing the service and contributions. The state " should not stifle incentive, opportunity, responsibility; in establishing a national minimum, it should leave room and encouragement for voluntary action by each individual to provide more than that minimum for himself and his family".




Much of UK left wing politics has it's roots in self help movements and the like from the century before and is a reflection of our history which is a bit different from yours.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/time ... 3578.shtml
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Post by Accountable »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;883819 wrote: As John McCain recently said, only a fool or fraud talks tough or romantically about war. Yet, there seems to be constant war around the world.



We are afraid of war and rightly so of course, but that fear may actually lead us not away from but toward conflicts. In the last century, much of the world ignored the growing militarism of Japan, the growing power of Hitler and his message, the fascists in Italy and even the horror of post revolution Russia. Is it because we cannot comprehend such evil, or that our fear of war helps us to simply look the other way and hope the political rhetoric is just that, rhetoric. But of course it often is not only rhetoric, but rather setting the stage for a single person to acquire power on the back of some scapegoat and isn’t’ it plain old scary that millions of human beings can so easily be cajoled to follow this path, over and over throughout the centuries?



Is today any different? Are we guilty of not taking the rhetoric from the Middle East governments or Muslim leaders seriously? Is it just too hard to accept that the outspoken call for the destruction of non-Muslims, or America or of Israel is real? Who could have conceived the possibility of September 11, 2001 any more than December 7, 1941?



The Middle East may seem far away to many of us, but the rhetoric of hate is in our backyard and throughout Europe, often under the guise of religion.



As a recent article in the Wall Street Journal asked, have we learned the lessons of the last century? I fear not. We seem incapable of seeing what is before our eyes.:-1:-1:-1
If we invade another nation without provocation don't be surprised if the rest of the world looks at us like Japan or Germany.
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Predator Prevention;896518 wrote: I understand where you're coming from with that....I think. I do know that loyalty and service dedication must be thought about before they even put the uniform on. I'm a military wife. We are proud and dedicated. My husband doesn't WANT to go to war, but when you choose the armed services, you have chosen to do what they ask of you, in the hopes that you can trust that they ask you to do what is best for the country you are wishing to serve...........within certain moral boundaries ofcourse, my husband will do what the government asks of him because that is his duty.
My thanks to you and your husband. I think your job is tougher.



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Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

Accountable;899937 wrote: If we invade another nation without provocation don't be surprised if the rest of the world looks at us like Japan or Germany.


I suspect that much of the world already does.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw



"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



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Post by sunny104 »

gmc;899879 wrote: I've never really had a dialogue with anyone from the states apart from this forum. It's fascinating since you do have some very weird ideas. Maybe it's because we are familiar thanks to tv and films and most of us go abroad each year so we are fairly eclectic about things. Whereas all you get is america and american media so maybe you think the rest of the world is just like america but with different languages.




we're not as sheltered as you think or as different.

Could be why everytime someone visits here for the first time they are always "so surprised" by everything (in a good way). ;)
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Post by Predator Prevention »

Accountable;899938 wrote: My thanks to you and your husband. I think your job is tougher.



MSgt, USAF retired


Thankyou sincerely for that, and my thanks to you. My husband is also Air Force as a SSgt.
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Post by gmc »

Accountable;899937 wrote: If we invade another nation without provocation don't be surprised if the rest of the world looks at us like Japan or Germany.


Not really. They really were out for empire but so was everybody else at the time. Don't forget we were daft enough to join in. :-5
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Post by gmc »

posted by quinns commentary

I would very much like your perspective on health care. I have been a corporate benefits officer for over 40 years trying to deal with health care issues and in the past I was an advisor to the fedral government and on the board of directors of several health plans.


You might find this of interest. Some of the debate and fears being expressed in this forum about healthcare in the US are remarkably similar.



http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 56091.html
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Post by Nomad »

No.



Report: U.S. 'preparing the battlefield' in Iran

The Bush administration has launched a "significant escalation" of covert operations in Iran, sending U.S. commandos to spy on the country's nuclear facilities and undermine the Islamic republic's government, journalist Seymour Hersh told CNN on Sunday. full story
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Post by Clodhopper »

Someone asked how a sovereign nation could tolerate another nation's military bases on their soil. As someone who grew up near US airbases in the East Midlands I can tell you: As a kid the US was seen as our ally as a result of WW2. Now they were here - as in WW2 - as a protection against the USSR. As I got older and understood a bit about NATO it still made sense. Used to see A 10s practising in the valleys nearby and waved at them (such very quiet planes!). Was picked up hitchhiking back home from University by a USAF pilot. You were just part of things and accepted as such.

Remember that we also had a garrison force in Germany too - front line against the Warsaw Pact. In a similar way we sent forces to France to fight Germany at the start of two world wars. It's still going on - last summer there were naval vessels from France and (I think) Italy in Plymouth for a NATO exercise. Quite a sight! Troops posted in other countries or NATO troops in our own are nothing new and are part of our security, not a threat to our sovereignty.
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