So Castro is gone
So Castro is gone
Well, at least he only waited 50 years to transfer power to someone else. Of course that someone else is his brother and the people can't be allowed to come up with their own leader as that would tarnish the glorious socialist revolution. Still, despite being a petty tyrant and almost plunging the world into nuclear war with his crazy acceptance of soviet missile bases 75 miles from the U.S., he will have a legacy in history. What I wonder about is why Latin and South America seems always to throw up these kind of populist dictators (either right or left wing, they are still all fairly similar in their own way). Of course the conventional wisdom is that its all the fault of those dastardly yanks and their evil empire (boo hiss), but you know South America has been like this long before the U.S. became the global superpower or even the most powerful regional power in the Americas, so why is that? 
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Castro is gone
Its kind of a symbolic departure. I mean since his brother is going to carry on, business as usual its more or less a non event.
I hope he enjoys retirement. :rolleyes:
I hope he enjoys retirement. :rolleyes:
I AM AWESOME MAN
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chonsigirl
- Posts: 33633
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:28 am
So Castro is gone
His brother is said to be a pretty bad dude......
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librtyhead
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:32 pm
So Castro is gone
Cuba is a really beautiful country, it may do th U.S. well to normalize relations with them, otherwise we may have another missile crisis far worse than the last one.
So Castro is gone
The best thing that could possibly happen to Cuba is another fifty years of US embargo, it's been the making of them.
Fidel Castro has the same degree of inflexible certainty and drive and moral rectitude about him that the late Karol Wojtyła had - Pope John Paul II as was. I'm glad they were there, though I'm not sure I agree so much with what the Pope was after.
As far as bringing in multi-party democracy to replace the single-party democracy that Cuba currently has, I'd not push that. I think the world's a better place if it has political experiments like Cuba in it, rather than a bland common identity. I admire what Castro's revolution has achieved in fifty years, I hope it continues.
Fidel Castro has the same degree of inflexible certainty and drive and moral rectitude about him that the late Karol Wojtyła had - Pope John Paul II as was. I'm glad they were there, though I'm not sure I agree so much with what the Pope was after.
As far as bringing in multi-party democracy to replace the single-party democracy that Cuba currently has, I'd not push that. I think the world's a better place if it has political experiments like Cuba in it, rather than a bland common identity. I admire what Castro's revolution has achieved in fifty years, I hope it continues.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Castro is gone
I'm all for political experiments and vive le difference, and all that, but I am glad he didn't have his experiment in my country. 
(somehow I don't think the brits would have been as tolerant as the yanks were, and thats saying something :wah:). Anyway, it is interesting. To be honest I think Castro is a just another petty tyrant, though he certainly did make sure his country had a good education and health system, which adds an interesting gloss of respectability to his autoracy for middle class western people of a certain mindset.
(somehow I don't think the brits would have been as tolerant as the yanks were, and thats saying something :wah:). Anyway, it is interesting. To be honest I think Castro is a just another petty tyrant, though he certainly did make sure his country had a good education and health system, which adds an interesting gloss of respectability to his autoracy for middle class western people of a certain mindset."We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Castro is gone
Jester;780166 wrote: Im sorry and what is it he has achieved? :-2
Dignity, Jester. He brought dignity, education and pride to a people who would otherwise have continued to be an exploited peasantry like, for example, the Haitians are. I think those two societies are well worth comparing, the one bowing the knee to the US and the other standing tall. Wait another generation and the American underclass is going to have all the hallmarks of Haitian serfdom, that's what capitalism's aimed at even on your mainland.
Dignity, Jester. He brought dignity, education and pride to a people who would otherwise have continued to be an exploited peasantry like, for example, the Haitians are. I think those two societies are well worth comparing, the one bowing the knee to the US and the other standing tall. Wait another generation and the American underclass is going to have all the hallmarks of Haitian serfdom, that's what capitalism's aimed at even on your mainland.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Castro is gone
Scrat;780609 wrote: All depends on what you convince yourself of, het?
I look at a persons record, I don't lump them all into a certain category. Just like I judge people, I don't judge people so much by who they are, I judge them by their actions.
You say Putin is a despot, I say he may be in ways BUT the lot of your average Russian in life has improved markedly with his firm hand on the wheel of Russia. He's done much more good than harm, he too has made history.
You say Castro was a despot, yes he was in ways. In other ways he saved his people from slavery.
I can see your hypocrisy Galbally, for example the Baltic states. It's perfectly fine that the fascists are back in power, the ruling class of the Baltic people are home again. The aristocracy has returned and what would the aristocrats be without subjects? Peasants? Teutonic Knights with no one to defend?
At least when the SU was there everybody had an equal shot at an education and available opportunities. 40% of the people in the Baltic states DON'T EVEN HAVE A RIGHT TO EXERCISE POWER OVER THEIR OWN FUTURE BECAUSE THEY ARE OF RUSSIAN OR SLAVIC ANCESTRY!! At least in the SU that had citizenship.
Really Galbally, that's a part of you I don't understand. Remember what Britain did in Ireland?
Don't start about Ireland Scrat, unless you know something about it. Are you suggesting that the Soviet Union was a great thing that should be reformed and that the people's of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia (as well as the Ukraine, Belarus, and half of my continent Europe be forced to be Ruled from Moscow again?, not likely mate). You are just spouting Russian nationalist propoganda, and its outrageous to call the Governments of those baltic countries fascists, you would think that the Russians might be ashamed of their chauvanistic past and just leave them alone for once.
Its not hypocrisy to state what people are, Castro was a desot period, in Ireland we were the classic case of a poor, powerless people who rose up to fight the power of a larger state, but you know, we didn't end up with a 50-year one party dictatorship, because we actually believe that the Irish people have the right to elect their leaders and also the liberty to own their own property and have a say in their own destiny. I have not said anywhere here that the policy of embargo and hostility and sometimes open war against Cuba by the U.S. government was a fair or wise policy BTW, I am talking here about Castro, never mind what others have done, what has he done? He is ultimately responsible for his own policies and actions after all, just like you and I are.
Its hilarious to try to think how Russia, the largest nation on Earth, (with the second largest Nuclear Arsenal and second largest Conventional army, as well as enourmous resevers of everything), would have anything to fear from the mighty Estonia, but then painting a non-existent threat as a clear and present danger is the usual ploy of a great country thats about to crush a weak one (i.e. the U.S. hysteria about Iraq circa 2003, or Hitlers claims about the German minorities in Poland Czecheslovakia, the Baltic States hmmmn, history repeating itself eh?).
We in small countries are well used to being barracked and intimidated by more powerful self-righteous neighbours, but all men of good concience should always speak their mind because thats what liberty is all about.
As for Putin, this isn't about Putin, or Russia (which is your cause celebre and an issue you always manage to turn every discussion into, in the same way Spot makes almost everything turn into a diatribe against America). I accept the right of the Russian people to have their own leaders or outlook, thats their right, which they have won through generations of fighting off other people, unfortunatly that has involved the Russians subjugating an awful lot of people in the process, just like the British, the French, the Ottomans, The Chinese, the Americans, all the great powers of this world.
You seem to have inherited this Russian chip on your shoulder, which is interesting that you would feel so aggreived at the opinion of someone from Ireland, a country that has invaded no one, has no strategic interest in Russia, and poses no concieveable threat to anyone (well except the Welsh, but don't mention that).
I look at a persons record, I don't lump them all into a certain category. Just like I judge people, I don't judge people so much by who they are, I judge them by their actions.
You say Putin is a despot, I say he may be in ways BUT the lot of your average Russian in life has improved markedly with his firm hand on the wheel of Russia. He's done much more good than harm, he too has made history.
You say Castro was a despot, yes he was in ways. In other ways he saved his people from slavery.
I can see your hypocrisy Galbally, for example the Baltic states. It's perfectly fine that the fascists are back in power, the ruling class of the Baltic people are home again. The aristocracy has returned and what would the aristocrats be without subjects? Peasants? Teutonic Knights with no one to defend?
At least when the SU was there everybody had an equal shot at an education and available opportunities. 40% of the people in the Baltic states DON'T EVEN HAVE A RIGHT TO EXERCISE POWER OVER THEIR OWN FUTURE BECAUSE THEY ARE OF RUSSIAN OR SLAVIC ANCESTRY!! At least in the SU that had citizenship.
Really Galbally, that's a part of you I don't understand. Remember what Britain did in Ireland?
Don't start about Ireland Scrat, unless you know something about it. Are you suggesting that the Soviet Union was a great thing that should be reformed and that the people's of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia (as well as the Ukraine, Belarus, and half of my continent Europe be forced to be Ruled from Moscow again?, not likely mate). You are just spouting Russian nationalist propoganda, and its outrageous to call the Governments of those baltic countries fascists, you would think that the Russians might be ashamed of their chauvanistic past and just leave them alone for once.
Its not hypocrisy to state what people are, Castro was a desot period, in Ireland we were the classic case of a poor, powerless people who rose up to fight the power of a larger state, but you know, we didn't end up with a 50-year one party dictatorship, because we actually believe that the Irish people have the right to elect their leaders and also the liberty to own their own property and have a say in their own destiny. I have not said anywhere here that the policy of embargo and hostility and sometimes open war against Cuba by the U.S. government was a fair or wise policy BTW, I am talking here about Castro, never mind what others have done, what has he done? He is ultimately responsible for his own policies and actions after all, just like you and I are.
Its hilarious to try to think how Russia, the largest nation on Earth, (with the second largest Nuclear Arsenal and second largest Conventional army, as well as enourmous resevers of everything), would have anything to fear from the mighty Estonia, but then painting a non-existent threat as a clear and present danger is the usual ploy of a great country thats about to crush a weak one (i.e. the U.S. hysteria about Iraq circa 2003, or Hitlers claims about the German minorities in Poland Czecheslovakia, the Baltic States hmmmn, history repeating itself eh?).
We in small countries are well used to being barracked and intimidated by more powerful self-righteous neighbours, but all men of good concience should always speak their mind because thats what liberty is all about.
As for Putin, this isn't about Putin, or Russia (which is your cause celebre and an issue you always manage to turn every discussion into, in the same way Spot makes almost everything turn into a diatribe against America). I accept the right of the Russian people to have their own leaders or outlook, thats their right, which they have won through generations of fighting off other people, unfortunatly that has involved the Russians subjugating an awful lot of people in the process, just like the British, the French, the Ottomans, The Chinese, the Americans, all the great powers of this world.
You seem to have inherited this Russian chip on your shoulder, which is interesting that you would feel so aggreived at the opinion of someone from Ireland, a country that has invaded no one, has no strategic interest in Russia, and poses no concieveable threat to anyone (well except the Welsh, but don't mention that).
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Castro is gone
Galbally;780704 wrote: Its not hypocrisy to state what people are, Castro was a desot periodI'm quite happy with that as a description Galbally, but I'd point out that by the large majority of the Cuban people, those who experienced his rule, and even by the large majority in Central and South America, he'd be described as Good Despot (or, more probably and if I'm allowed a preference in the terminology, a Good Tyrant). We've been privileged to see one in action in our lifetime. I'm eager to see Cuba go from strength to strength in resisting world capitalism and providing a just, healthy and safe environment for its citizens.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Castro is gone
spot;780738 wrote: I'm quite happy with that as a description Galbally, but I'd point out that by the large majority of the Cuban people, those who experienced his rule, and even by the large majority in Central and South America, he'd be described as Good Despot (or, more probably and if I'm allowed a preference in the terminology, a Good Tyrant). We've been privileged to see one in action in our lifetime. I'm eager to see Cuba go from strength to strength in resisting world capitalism and providing a just, healthy and safe environment for its citizens.
Ok, I see what you are saying, though to be honest given the realities of human nature, any system that enshrines one party or one man rule will eventually end up in a greater degree of repression than a society that allows for a spectrum of political viewponts and personalities to attain absoute power, and the lessons of history all validate that reality, whatever the utopian aims are.
Here is another pertinent question, what is that wrong with world Captialism, or capitalism itself, and why does Latin America need to "resist" capitalism, and why would you need an autocratic government to resist it? You seem to take them all as inalienable facts, I would say that on the countrary all those ideas are highly questionable.
Are you actually referring to a specific economic model by which a society generates wealth or are you talking about U.S. foriegn policy in Latin America because they are not the same thing. Is the only model whereby countries in that region can organize themselves and "oppose" (if that's even a valid concept) the U.S. in adopting some form of debased socialism or communism? Why do you think that?
Ok, I see what you are saying, though to be honest given the realities of human nature, any system that enshrines one party or one man rule will eventually end up in a greater degree of repression than a society that allows for a spectrum of political viewponts and personalities to attain absoute power, and the lessons of history all validate that reality, whatever the utopian aims are.
Here is another pertinent question, what is that wrong with world Captialism, or capitalism itself, and why does Latin America need to "resist" capitalism, and why would you need an autocratic government to resist it? You seem to take them all as inalienable facts, I would say that on the countrary all those ideas are highly questionable.
Are you actually referring to a specific economic model by which a society generates wealth or are you talking about U.S. foriegn policy in Latin America because they are not the same thing. Is the only model whereby countries in that region can organize themselves and "oppose" (if that's even a valid concept) the U.S. in adopting some form of debased socialism or communism? Why do you think that?
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Castro is gone
I'm talking about the maintenance of the mass of the population in a state of poverty as a means of driving them to work harder and longer simply to subsist, in order to generate wealth for the minority who have quality X which justifies their wealth. Intelligence, perhaps, or business acumen, or inherited assets. The promise of the American Dream, that anyone can make it to the top, is the lottery lure that ignores the statistics of how many make it and how many don't. Justice demands a more even sharing of resources both within countries and between countries. Capitalism as a system is designed to prevent that.
"one party or one man rule will eventually end up in a greater degree of repression" isn't, in my opinion, true. Not when the repression is economic and systemic. The existence of a two-party system in which both parties are committed to a capitalist model is the reason that representative democracy offers no way out for the working class poor. The UK has spent a lot of time and effort constraining its politicians into a socialist mould and it's a constant fight to keep them there. The Americans never even came close and will in my opinion never manage it and their crippled social contract is the reason for their calamitous social condition.
Meanwhile it's people like Chavez and Castro who have managed to rescue at least some portion of the outlying countries from this wicked exploitation, and more power to them. They banned the lottery lure and their societies are the better for it.
"one party or one man rule will eventually end up in a greater degree of repression" isn't, in my opinion, true. Not when the repression is economic and systemic. The existence of a two-party system in which both parties are committed to a capitalist model is the reason that representative democracy offers no way out for the working class poor. The UK has spent a lot of time and effort constraining its politicians into a socialist mould and it's a constant fight to keep them there. The Americans never even came close and will in my opinion never manage it and their crippled social contract is the reason for their calamitous social condition.
Meanwhile it's people like Chavez and Castro who have managed to rescue at least some portion of the outlying countries from this wicked exploitation, and more power to them. They banned the lottery lure and their societies are the better for it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Castro is gone
spot;780815 wrote: I'm talking about the maintenance of the mass of the population in a state of poverty as a means of driving them to work harder and longer simply to subsist, in order to generate wealth for the minority who have quality X which justifies their wealth. Intelligence, perhaps, or business acumen, or inherited assets. The promise of the American Dream, that anyone can make it to the top, is the lottery lure that ignores the statistics of how many make it and how many don't. Justice demands a more even sharing of resources both within countries and between countries. Capitalism as a system is designed to prevent that.
"one party or one man rule will eventually end up in a greater degree of repression" isn't, in my opinion, true. Not when the repression is economic and systemic. The existence of a two-party system in which both parties are committed to a capitalist model is the reason that representative democracy offers no way out for the working class poor. The UK has spent a lot of time and effort constraining its politicians into a socialist mould and it's a constant fight to keep them there. The Americans never even came close and will in my opinion never manage it and their crippled social contract is the reason for their calamitous social condition.
Meanwhile it's people like Chavez and Castro who have managed to rescue at least some portion of the outlying countries from this wicked exploitation, and more power to them. They banned the lottery lure and their societies are the better for it.
I understand your opinion, though I do not share it, I would think that we would waste a lot of time arguing about economic systems and which ones provide individual liberty. I would also say that the history of UK parliamentary democracy is a prime example of how organized labour was able to form a political movement (namely the Labour Party) within Britain's lassire faire, liberal democratic system that formed many of the Government's of the 20th century so that would suggest that in fact you are misguided on that point.
Primarily and pragmatically societies as well as people become wealthy by individuals producing goods and services and trade in either large or small companies, and that in general governments are only good at taxing economic activity and then spending the money, sometimes they spend the money well, sometimes they waste it, but they are never very good at making it in the first place. The idea that you can organize a society that will just be equitable because of some political ideology, or that if you pass all the assets of a nation into public ownership (which is an oxymoron and really means into the control of government bureaucracy, or its ruling elite) is complete bunk and I think at this stage we have realized that, perhaps not.
Name me one country where their has been a socialist or communist revolution and where the great mass of people have actually been given the access to their collective "assets", or the freedom to decide what they actually wish to do with the profits of their labour, or even perhaps choose a different set of politicians? There isn't one.
Why is it that in every example of countries such as Cuba the "peasants" or "workers" revolution has to resort to the physical repression of the actual people in whom all of these great utopias are supposed to be for, and requirement for the end of all political dissent (usually up against a wall) in order to perpetuate the system? I will tell you why, because the reality of this seeming fair idea is in fact deeply unfair and ends up in inequalities that make the inequalities of the capitalist system look distinctly egalitarian.
To me, most socialist regimes seem fairly akin to Feudal robber barons, usually people by violent dissafected pseudo intellectuals, or apparachiks, whose primary purpose is to feed themselves and their little group of self-righteous fellow travelers (based of course on their own superior intellectual vision and moral rectitude) to an extent that would make the greediest corporate whore blush.
Now don't get me wrong, I completely agree that the redistribution of a percentage of the wealth that a country's citizen's earns through tax and good governance is proper and I don't think many European's that would argue with that point. But it's a also the duty of a government of a free people to understand that its the government that is beholden in taking its citizens money in order pay for their governance, (which is a privilege of those who govern, and not a right) and not the other way around.
I also think that people should have a right under a proper and equitable system of law to property that either they have earned or inherited from others. That tax should be paid by everyone who enjoys the benefits and freedom of their society is right and proper, that a government would assume that it has an inalienable right to assume the arbitrary control of the collective assets of its people is a deeply inequitable one.
"one party or one man rule will eventually end up in a greater degree of repression" isn't, in my opinion, true. Not when the repression is economic and systemic. The existence of a two-party system in which both parties are committed to a capitalist model is the reason that representative democracy offers no way out for the working class poor. The UK has spent a lot of time and effort constraining its politicians into a socialist mould and it's a constant fight to keep them there. The Americans never even came close and will in my opinion never manage it and their crippled social contract is the reason for their calamitous social condition.
Meanwhile it's people like Chavez and Castro who have managed to rescue at least some portion of the outlying countries from this wicked exploitation, and more power to them. They banned the lottery lure and their societies are the better for it.
I understand your opinion, though I do not share it, I would think that we would waste a lot of time arguing about economic systems and which ones provide individual liberty. I would also say that the history of UK parliamentary democracy is a prime example of how organized labour was able to form a political movement (namely the Labour Party) within Britain's lassire faire, liberal democratic system that formed many of the Government's of the 20th century so that would suggest that in fact you are misguided on that point.
Primarily and pragmatically societies as well as people become wealthy by individuals producing goods and services and trade in either large or small companies, and that in general governments are only good at taxing economic activity and then spending the money, sometimes they spend the money well, sometimes they waste it, but they are never very good at making it in the first place. The idea that you can organize a society that will just be equitable because of some political ideology, or that if you pass all the assets of a nation into public ownership (which is an oxymoron and really means into the control of government bureaucracy, or its ruling elite) is complete bunk and I think at this stage we have realized that, perhaps not.
Name me one country where their has been a socialist or communist revolution and where the great mass of people have actually been given the access to their collective "assets", or the freedom to decide what they actually wish to do with the profits of their labour, or even perhaps choose a different set of politicians? There isn't one.
Why is it that in every example of countries such as Cuba the "peasants" or "workers" revolution has to resort to the physical repression of the actual people in whom all of these great utopias are supposed to be for, and requirement for the end of all political dissent (usually up against a wall) in order to perpetuate the system? I will tell you why, because the reality of this seeming fair idea is in fact deeply unfair and ends up in inequalities that make the inequalities of the capitalist system look distinctly egalitarian.
To me, most socialist regimes seem fairly akin to Feudal robber barons, usually people by violent dissafected pseudo intellectuals, or apparachiks, whose primary purpose is to feed themselves and their little group of self-righteous fellow travelers (based of course on their own superior intellectual vision and moral rectitude) to an extent that would make the greediest corporate whore blush.
Now don't get me wrong, I completely agree that the redistribution of a percentage of the wealth that a country's citizen's earns through tax and good governance is proper and I don't think many European's that would argue with that point. But it's a also the duty of a government of a free people to understand that its the government that is beholden in taking its citizens money in order pay for their governance, (which is a privilege of those who govern, and not a right) and not the other way around.
I also think that people should have a right under a proper and equitable system of law to property that either they have earned or inherited from others. That tax should be paid by everyone who enjoys the benefits and freedom of their society is right and proper, that a government would assume that it has an inalienable right to assume the arbitrary control of the collective assets of its people is a deeply inequitable one.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Castro is gone
Galbally;780957 wrote: I understand your opinion, though I do not share it, I would think that we would waste a lot of time arguing about economic systems and which ones provide individual liberty. I would also say that the history of UK parliamentary democracy is a prime example of how organized labour was able to form a political movement (namely the Labour Party) within Britain's lassire faire, liberal democratic system that formed many of the Government's of the 20th century so that would suggest that in fact you are misguided on that point. On the contrary, that was the exact point I made if you look back and check. Britain after Attlee has been a socialist state, not a capitalist state - not even Thatcher's attempts to roll back the stone succeeded in resurrecting a full-blown capitalist model of greed here. Name you one country where it's happened? I live in one.
As for your bit about "has to resort to the physical repression of the actual people in whom all of these great utopias are supposed to be for" I say it's the propaganda lie and it isn't true. That's not what happened in Cuba. What you have in Cuba is a people proud of what they've achieved, not a downtrodden mass.
As for your bit about "has to resort to the physical repression of the actual people in whom all of these great utopias are supposed to be for" I say it's the propaganda lie and it isn't true. That's not what happened in Cuba. What you have in Cuba is a people proud of what they've achieved, not a downtrodden mass.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Castro is gone
spot;780962 wrote: On the contrary, that was the exact point I made if you look back and check. Britain after Attlee has been a socialist state, not a capitalist state - not even Thatcher's attempts to roll back the stone succeeded in resurrecting a full-blown capitalist model of greed here. Name you one country where it's happened? I live in one.
As for your bit about "has to resort to the physical repression of the actual people in whom all of these great utopias are supposed to be for" I say it's the propaganda lie and it isn't true. That's not what happened in Cuba. What you have in Cuba is a people proud of what they've achieved, not a downtrodden mass.
Spot, its exactly the point that the Labour government in 1945 didn't feel the need to ban all other political parties, make Clement Atlee leader for life, banish anyone who disagreed with them, take over the army and the police force, execute people within the labour party who started to disagree with the rule of the executive, or those perceived as "class enemies", nationalize all the nation's assets, and realized that even though they represented the class of people who were not being given the full benefits of the country's wealth, they also had to govern with the consent of everyone who wasn't in the labour party or shared their objectives. Also I would add that if Cuban achievements have been so legion, why is it that so many Cubans have felt the need to flee the country on masse over the decades? You live in a country where everyone accepts that their own sectional interests are allowed to rule with the tacit consent of people with a different viewpoint, thats what makes Britain strong as a society.
They achieved things like the National Health service, and dignity for British industrial workers, without taking over the entire apparatus of the state, or eliminating all the other sectors of society. That's the difference between the British Labour Party, or the regimes of people like Fidel Castro, or Pol Pot, or Mao Tse Tung, or Vladmir Ilich Lennin.
Within a spectrum there is no doubt that as dictators go, Castro was no means the worst of them, and also the U.S. has treated Cuba with a hysterical unfairness over the decades, but that doesn't really abjure him from the responsibility for preventing his countrymen and women from having any say in what they actually wanted for the last 50 years, by force, or proclude me from saying that I wouldn't want to have to accept that sort of regime in my own country, and I believe that ordinary Cubans deserve the freedoms and rights that I take for granted.
That said, its also true that its not up to me to tell ordinary Cubans what they want, and if they want to keep Castro's vision of society, then of course that's their collective right, so I have an idea.. why not hold an open and fair election in which any Cuban is allowed to stand for a seat in the legislature as you and I are allowed to do in our respective nations, and therefore enable them to confirm what you claim. That would seem to be a very simple idea.
As for your bit about "has to resort to the physical repression of the actual people in whom all of these great utopias are supposed to be for" I say it's the propaganda lie and it isn't true. That's not what happened in Cuba. What you have in Cuba is a people proud of what they've achieved, not a downtrodden mass.
Spot, its exactly the point that the Labour government in 1945 didn't feel the need to ban all other political parties, make Clement Atlee leader for life, banish anyone who disagreed with them, take over the army and the police force, execute people within the labour party who started to disagree with the rule of the executive, or those perceived as "class enemies", nationalize all the nation's assets, and realized that even though they represented the class of people who were not being given the full benefits of the country's wealth, they also had to govern with the consent of everyone who wasn't in the labour party or shared their objectives. Also I would add that if Cuban achievements have been so legion, why is it that so many Cubans have felt the need to flee the country on masse over the decades? You live in a country where everyone accepts that their own sectional interests are allowed to rule with the tacit consent of people with a different viewpoint, thats what makes Britain strong as a society.
They achieved things like the National Health service, and dignity for British industrial workers, without taking over the entire apparatus of the state, or eliminating all the other sectors of society. That's the difference between the British Labour Party, or the regimes of people like Fidel Castro, or Pol Pot, or Mao Tse Tung, or Vladmir Ilich Lennin.
Within a spectrum there is no doubt that as dictators go, Castro was no means the worst of them, and also the U.S. has treated Cuba with a hysterical unfairness over the decades, but that doesn't really abjure him from the responsibility for preventing his countrymen and women from having any say in what they actually wanted for the last 50 years, by force, or proclude me from saying that I wouldn't want to have to accept that sort of regime in my own country, and I believe that ordinary Cubans deserve the freedoms and rights that I take for granted.
That said, its also true that its not up to me to tell ordinary Cubans what they want, and if they want to keep Castro's vision of society, then of course that's their collective right, so I have an idea.. why not hold an open and fair election in which any Cuban is allowed to stand for a seat in the legislature as you and I are allowed to do in our respective nations, and therefore enable them to confirm what you claim. That would seem to be a very simple idea.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Castro is gone
Churchill was no Batista and the economic base of the country was sufficiently well established that sharing didn't completely destroy the wealth of the elite. Britain could afford to go half way, Cuba and the USSR couldn't.
As for that election paragraph, to the best of my knowledge that's exactly what happens in Cuba at the moment.
As for that election paragraph, to the best of my knowledge that's exactly what happens in Cuba at the moment.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Castro is gone
spot;780976 wrote: Churchill was no Batista and the economic base of the country was sufficiently well established that sharing didn't completely destroy the wealth of the elite. Britain could afford to go half way, Cuba and the USSR couldn't.
As for that election paragraph, to the best of my knowledge that's exactly what happens in Cuba at the moment.
Again Spot, that's sophistry, Russia was one of the most resource rich nations in 1918 as it is now, and the first popular revolution was not the soviet one, which was a later palace coup, in which they quickly destroyed their naive and constitutionally inclined opposition. They were not interested in justice, or fair rule, they were ideologues who were only interested in achieving power and destroying everything and everyone they hated. The soviets of course later re-invented Russian history to cement their own regime's utterly wicked regime, unfortunately they managed to convince many foolish people in the West of the nobility of their despicable regime, and their non-existent popular legitimacy (I think Lenin used to refer to them as "useful idiots" no?). You could use your exact apologistic arguments to justify Nazi Germany, and its horrors, they just waded through people's blood and lives for a slightly different utopian National Socialist vision of a society ruled absolutely based on the ideological dictatorship of a "Visonary" leader and his cronies.
So there is going to be a General Election in Cuba where any political party or individual can run for a position in the Cuban legislature is there? Great!
As for that election paragraph, to the best of my knowledge that's exactly what happens in Cuba at the moment.
Again Spot, that's sophistry, Russia was one of the most resource rich nations in 1918 as it is now, and the first popular revolution was not the soviet one, which was a later palace coup, in which they quickly destroyed their naive and constitutionally inclined opposition. They were not interested in justice, or fair rule, they were ideologues who were only interested in achieving power and destroying everything and everyone they hated. The soviets of course later re-invented Russian history to cement their own regime's utterly wicked regime, unfortunately they managed to convince many foolish people in the West of the nobility of their despicable regime, and their non-existent popular legitimacy (I think Lenin used to refer to them as "useful idiots" no?). You could use your exact apologistic arguments to justify Nazi Germany, and its horrors, they just waded through people's blood and lives for a slightly different utopian National Socialist vision of a society ruled absolutely based on the ideological dictatorship of a "Visonary" leader and his cronies.
So there is going to be a General Election in Cuba where any political party or individual can run for a position in the Cuban legislature is there? Great!
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Castro is gone
Galbally;780985 wrote: So there is going to be a General Election in Cuba where any political party or individual can run for a position in the Cuban legislature is there? Great!Go back and check, you said individual. I'm quite sure multiple political parties are frowned on. As for any individual, I think I'm right.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Castro is gone
spot;780987 wrote: Go back and check, you said individual. I'm quite sure multiple political parties are frowned on. As for any individual, I think I'm right.
Yes, I think some definition of facts will be required in that case.
Yes, I think some definition of facts will be required in that case.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Castro is gone
Okay, some Cuban facts. Taken from Encyclopedia Britanica 2008.
Cuba is a unitary socialist republic. The government is totalitarian, exercising direct control or influence over most facets of Cuban life. President Fidel Castro is the chief of state, head of the government, the first secretary of the Communist Party of Cuba, and commander in chief of the armed forces. The country is governed under the constitution of 1976, which superseded revolutionary legislation that was enacted after the constitution of 1940 had been suspended. The 1976 constitution was slightly amended in 1992.
Under the constitution, legislative authority rests with the National Assembly of People's Power, whose more than 600 members serve five-year terms. The number of seats in the assembly has grown steadily, corresponding to the population of the provinces and municipalities. The National Assembly in its brief, twice-yearly sessions appoints a 31-member Council of State, which is headed by President Castro. The Council of State remains in session throughout the year and issues laws in the form of decrees. The president also appoints and presides over a Council of Ministers (cabinet), which carries on the daily administration of the country.
Cuba is a unitary socialist republic. The government is totalitarian, exercising direct control or influence over most facets of Cuban life. President Fidel Castro is the chief of state, head of the government, the first secretary of the Communist Party of Cuba, and commander in chief of the armed forces. The country is governed under the constitution of 1976, which superseded revolutionary legislation that was enacted after the constitution of 1940 had been suspended. The 1976 constitution was slightly amended in 1992.
Under the constitution, legislative authority rests with the National Assembly of People's Power, whose more than 600 members serve five-year terms. The number of seats in the assembly has grown steadily, corresponding to the population of the provinces and municipalities. The National Assembly in its brief, twice-yearly sessions appoints a 31-member Council of State, which is headed by President Castro. The Council of State remains in session throughout the year and issues laws in the form of decrees. The president also appoints and presides over a Council of Ministers (cabinet), which carries on the daily administration of the country.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Castro is gone
Most trials are public, except for many military tribunals and cases involving political dissent. There are no trials by jury. The police often detain political dissenters, and those who are deemed “counterrevolutionary†or antisocialist may be denied due process. Prison conditions in Cuba are as harsh as in most other countries in the region, and many prisoners suffer from malnutrition and disease. There are separate prisons for women and youths, but political prisoners are often grouped with violent offenders. Cuba has carried out the death penalty for some offenses, including drug trafficking.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Castro is gone
Suffrage is universal for Cubans age 16 years and older, excluding citizens who have applied for emigration. Voting in elections in Cuba is legally mandatory, as it is throughout Latin America, and voter participation is invariably high. The government usually admits to a small proportion of spoiled ballots. Women's suffrage was instituted in 1934, and women have taken on major roles in the political process since the revolution. A sizable minority of women are members of the National Assembly, and some occupy policymaking positions in the government, although men dominate the highest government and party offices.
In the early 1960s the government dissolved political parties and transformed three revolutionary organizations (the 26th of July Movement, Popular Socialist Party, and 13th of March Revolutionary Directorate) into a single national party, which was officially designated the Communist Party of Cuba in 1965.
The government also created several mass organizations, notably the ubiquitous Committees for the Defense of the Revolution, which maintain vigilance against ideological “enemies†and intimidate dissenters and are organized in every city, factory, and workplace and in many rural counties. Other organizations include the Federation of Cuban Women and the National Association of Small Farmers, which is composed of independent farmers, outside the system of collectivized state farms, who own a fraction of the total cultivated land. An important task of the Committees for the Defense of the Revolution is to choose municipal delegates who, in turn, select provisional delegates and members of the National Assembly.
In 1992 modifications in the electoral law permitted direct elections of members of the National Assembly. About half of the elected members now also serve on municipal councils, while the remainder serve at large and are therefore not beholden to a designated constituency. There is no party slate and candidates need not belong to the official Cuban Communist Party. Delegates receive no compensation for their political service. There is considerable competition for elected office, despite the low opinion that many Cubans hold for delegates and government in general.
In the early 1960s the government dissolved political parties and transformed three revolutionary organizations (the 26th of July Movement, Popular Socialist Party, and 13th of March Revolutionary Directorate) into a single national party, which was officially designated the Communist Party of Cuba in 1965.
The government also created several mass organizations, notably the ubiquitous Committees for the Defense of the Revolution, which maintain vigilance against ideological “enemies†and intimidate dissenters and are organized in every city, factory, and workplace and in many rural counties. Other organizations include the Federation of Cuban Women and the National Association of Small Farmers, which is composed of independent farmers, outside the system of collectivized state farms, who own a fraction of the total cultivated land. An important task of the Committees for the Defense of the Revolution is to choose municipal delegates who, in turn, select provisional delegates and members of the National Assembly.
In 1992 modifications in the electoral law permitted direct elections of members of the National Assembly. About half of the elected members now also serve on municipal councils, while the remainder serve at large and are therefore not beholden to a designated constituency. There is no party slate and candidates need not belong to the official Cuban Communist Party. Delegates receive no compensation for their political service. There is considerable competition for elected office, despite the low opinion that many Cubans hold for delegates and government in general.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Castro is gone
Socialist ideologies notwithstanding, lifestyles are not equal for everyone, and how one perceives Cuba varies considerably depending on one's individual situation.
Groups with access to hard currency—mainly U.S. dollars—enjoy a level of comfort not markedly different from that of middle-class residents elsewhere in Latin America and the Caribbean. From two-fifths to half of Cubans have access to dollars. This is a varied group indeed, comprising recipients of foreign remittances from their families, workers in service industries who receive gratuities, tourist enterprises catering to foreigners, members of the armed services, workers in some industries who are paid partly in dollars, and even those working in the sex trade.
There is also a group, locally called mayimbes (bosses), who appear to enjoy a good life without the benefit of obvious employment. These people form the faithful local clientele at the upscale paladares, the family-style restaurants officially licensed since 1994; they also frequent elegant state-run restaurants and the international dining rooms, expensive boutiques, and disco clubs of some first-class hotels, as well as the Caracol and Cubalse “dollar stores†scattered throughout Havana and other resort towns.
Dollars also enable ordinary Cubans to ameliorate, however slightly, the monotonous routine of their lives. They can supplement the inadequate supplies of their ration books—not only in quality but also in quantity and variety—from purchases in the mercados agropecuarios (general food markets) and creative private sources (including the black market).
Groups with access to hard currency—mainly U.S. dollars—enjoy a level of comfort not markedly different from that of middle-class residents elsewhere in Latin America and the Caribbean. From two-fifths to half of Cubans have access to dollars. This is a varied group indeed, comprising recipients of foreign remittances from their families, workers in service industries who receive gratuities, tourist enterprises catering to foreigners, members of the armed services, workers in some industries who are paid partly in dollars, and even those working in the sex trade.
There is also a group, locally called mayimbes (bosses), who appear to enjoy a good life without the benefit of obvious employment. These people form the faithful local clientele at the upscale paladares, the family-style restaurants officially licensed since 1994; they also frequent elegant state-run restaurants and the international dining rooms, expensive boutiques, and disco clubs of some first-class hotels, as well as the Caracol and Cubalse “dollar stores†scattered throughout Havana and other resort towns.
Dollars also enable ordinary Cubans to ameliorate, however slightly, the monotonous routine of their lives. They can supplement the inadequate supplies of their ration books—not only in quality but also in quantity and variety—from purchases in the mercados agropecuarios (general food markets) and creative private sources (including the black market).
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Castro is gone
So... "any Cuban is allowed to stand for a seat in the legislature as you and I are allowed to do in our respective nations" is a reasonable description after all.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Castro is gone
spot;781236 wrote: So... "any Cuban is allowed to stand for a seat in the legislature as you and I are allowed to do in our respective nations" is a reasonable description after all.
Yes it seems to be, though how that works in a one party police state I am not sure, it's an interesting country to be sure.
Yes it seems to be, though how that works in a one party police state I am not sure, it's an interesting country to be sure.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Castro is gone
Scrat;781681 wrote: I'm pointing my finger at you Galbally for various reasons, I used the examples I did because they were handy at the time. You are BIASED, you are HYPOCRITICAL in your approach to certain governments that exist today.
Are you saying that Castro and his people have not built a workable society in Cuba? A viable society?
I doubt very much your reactionary thinking allows for the fact that Cuba has been cut off from the mainstream world for decades AND THEY STILL ARE ABLE TO DO WHAT THEY DO!!
I'll go as far as to say that were it not for the radicals and rabid lunatics of liberal and capitalist culture Cuba may have actually evolved into another society in the last 44 years.
But sure of course I am biased, I never pretend otherwise. I don't think I'm particularly hypocritical, I just happen to have a strong opinion, and a dislike of socialist dictatorships. If that offends you, then so be it. I see you have called me a reactionary, well I must be making progress then. :rolleyes: As for Castro and the Cubans, yes of course its a viable society, it exists, but I wouldn't particularly want to live in it, or if I did I would at least want the right to be able to use the political system to change it.
To be perfectly honest Cuba is not at the top of any European's list of priorities, though I think the EU should try and persuede the US to ease the sanction regime and they are unfair, and counterproductive, and also the Cubans should be allowed to set their own destiny, and if thats a collective socialist economic vision, then good for them, but why not allow for a system that has more than one party, the communist party in charge, and thereby give people a free choice in their country's future, it seems elementary to me. I think in terms of your last point, I am quite sure that the nature of the previous regime in Cuba, and the US policies have been hugely influential in Cuban politics, but that doesn't abrogate Castro of his own responsibilities.
Are you saying that Castro and his people have not built a workable society in Cuba? A viable society?
I doubt very much your reactionary thinking allows for the fact that Cuba has been cut off from the mainstream world for decades AND THEY STILL ARE ABLE TO DO WHAT THEY DO!!
I'll go as far as to say that were it not for the radicals and rabid lunatics of liberal and capitalist culture Cuba may have actually evolved into another society in the last 44 years.
But sure of course I am biased, I never pretend otherwise. I don't think I'm particularly hypocritical, I just happen to have a strong opinion, and a dislike of socialist dictatorships. If that offends you, then so be it. I see you have called me a reactionary, well I must be making progress then. :rolleyes: As for Castro and the Cubans, yes of course its a viable society, it exists, but I wouldn't particularly want to live in it, or if I did I would at least want the right to be able to use the political system to change it.
To be perfectly honest Cuba is not at the top of any European's list of priorities, though I think the EU should try and persuede the US to ease the sanction regime and they are unfair, and counterproductive, and also the Cubans should be allowed to set their own destiny, and if thats a collective socialist economic vision, then good for them, but why not allow for a system that has more than one party, the communist party in charge, and thereby give people a free choice in their country's future, it seems elementary to me. I think in terms of your last point, I am quite sure that the nature of the previous regime in Cuba, and the US policies have been hugely influential in Cuban politics, but that doesn't abrogate Castro of his own responsibilities.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Castro is gone
Scrat;782864 wrote: We all have our biases then I guess.
My bias towards Cuba come from the fact that to me it seems our stance is just wrong, it's knee jerk reactionary crap. It's unconstructive. The same went for the SU, at the end of WWII we were at a crossroads, America took the path of conflict, the SU had no choice but to adopt the stance that it did and we ended up with an arms race and coldwar.
The same thing is happening again.
One thing we will never know about Cuba is that if instead of putting a crippling embargo on the nation would they have changed? I highly suspect they would have. They would be a hybrid of capitalism and socialism or something more akin to us or Canada.
The hypocrisy I see in you is your stance towards the Baltic states. It seems that one kind of oppression is better to you because it is done by the people who were originally oppressed by the SU. If you go back far enough, through the cycles of oppression you will find an origin. You will find that there was once SLAVIC and FINNIK people who lived along the eastern Baltic shores, until the Germanic peoples came.
THAT WAS THE BEGINING OF THE CYCLES OF OPPRESSION.
Have the wherewithall to think back a few thousand years, not just a few decades then solve the problems.
It appears now with the Germanic people returning to the Baltic states, confiscating homes, taking over the political arena, education and economic systems WHILE setting the stage for a dual class society (lords and serfs) is just another turn of the wheel to me.
As I said before, at least when the SU was there all of the people could have a shot at an education, a decent life and elect their representatives. Now it isn't so. Nothing has changed and it has in ways went backwards.
I agree about the U.S. policy on Cuba, it has been particularly unfair and shrill, just because Cuba is only 70 miles from Florida doesn't give the US an automatic right to continually interfere in Cuban politics (of course they do and they will, but they could ease up on them at least out of decency).
As for the Baltic states question thats a highly charged opinion you have. The people of the 3 Baltic states have wanted independence for their nations for centuries but have always been trapped between the needs of great powers. If there is serious and systemic discrimination against the Russian minorities then that should stop, and it has to be said that if the Russian government would also tone down the rhetoric it would also help to ease the situation, we are at a tricky phase here in Europe, we don't want to aggravate the Russians, or the Serbs, or the Kosovars, or the Americans, or anyone else, but its not easy sometimes.
My bias towards Cuba come from the fact that to me it seems our stance is just wrong, it's knee jerk reactionary crap. It's unconstructive. The same went for the SU, at the end of WWII we were at a crossroads, America took the path of conflict, the SU had no choice but to adopt the stance that it did and we ended up with an arms race and coldwar.
The same thing is happening again.
One thing we will never know about Cuba is that if instead of putting a crippling embargo on the nation would they have changed? I highly suspect they would have. They would be a hybrid of capitalism and socialism or something more akin to us or Canada.
The hypocrisy I see in you is your stance towards the Baltic states. It seems that one kind of oppression is better to you because it is done by the people who were originally oppressed by the SU. If you go back far enough, through the cycles of oppression you will find an origin. You will find that there was once SLAVIC and FINNIK people who lived along the eastern Baltic shores, until the Germanic peoples came.
THAT WAS THE BEGINING OF THE CYCLES OF OPPRESSION.
Have the wherewithall to think back a few thousand years, not just a few decades then solve the problems.
It appears now with the Germanic people returning to the Baltic states, confiscating homes, taking over the political arena, education and economic systems WHILE setting the stage for a dual class society (lords and serfs) is just another turn of the wheel to me.
As I said before, at least when the SU was there all of the people could have a shot at an education, a decent life and elect their representatives. Now it isn't so. Nothing has changed and it has in ways went backwards.
I agree about the U.S. policy on Cuba, it has been particularly unfair and shrill, just because Cuba is only 70 miles from Florida doesn't give the US an automatic right to continually interfere in Cuban politics (of course they do and they will, but they could ease up on them at least out of decency).
As for the Baltic states question thats a highly charged opinion you have. The people of the 3 Baltic states have wanted independence for their nations for centuries but have always been trapped between the needs of great powers. If there is serious and systemic discrimination against the Russian minorities then that should stop, and it has to be said that if the Russian government would also tone down the rhetoric it would also help to ease the situation, we are at a tricky phase here in Europe, we don't want to aggravate the Russians, or the Serbs, or the Kosovars, or the Americans, or anyone else, but its not easy sometimes.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
So Castro is gone
The site has discussed Fidel Castro on several occasions. This thread is a better memorial thread than just posting RIP would have been.
The world at large should be and, I think, to a major extent is grateful for the lifetime of public service shown by Fidel Castro. Most Cubans have had a better quality of life than they would have had without him.
Cuba’s revolutionary leader, Fidel Castro, dies aged 90
The world at large should be and, I think, to a major extent is grateful for the lifetime of public service shown by Fidel Castro. Most Cubans have had a better quality of life than they would have had without him.
Cuba’s revolutionary leader, Fidel Castro, dies aged 90
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Castro is gone
spot;1503065 wrote: The site has discussed Fidel Castro on several occasions. This thread is a better memorial thread than just posting RIP would have been.
The world at large should be and, I think, to a major extent is grateful for the lifetime of public service shown by Fidel Castro. Most Cubans have had a better quality of life than they would have had without him.
Cuba’s revolutionary leader, Fidel Castro, dies aged 90
Well, most of my Cubano friends and relatives would claim otherwise. I'm sure he did some good for the Cuban people at some point, but he and his brother caused a lot of heartache, as well.
The world at large should be and, I think, to a major extent is grateful for the lifetime of public service shown by Fidel Castro. Most Cubans have had a better quality of life than they would have had without him.
Cuba’s revolutionary leader, Fidel Castro, dies aged 90
Well, most of my Cubano friends and relatives would claim otherwise. I'm sure he did some good for the Cuban people at some point, but he and his brother caused a lot of heartache, as well.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
So Castro is gone
Do you suppose, for instance, that Cuba would have produced so many humanitarian doctors and made them available across the third world?
I could gather some figures if you like.
I could gather some figures if you like.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Castro is gone
I've read this thread more than once before in the past. It's an interesting one. Galbally made some good points and stated them well.
One aspect of this argument that never seems to get attention from people who disagree with governments such as Castro's is the affect marketing entities have.
As an example in today's US political climate. The media has filtered so much information about foreign policy out during the 2016 campaign that the vast majority who voted for Hillary Clinton did so based on the absence of it. My guess is many less would have voted for her had the information been available.
Marketing entities have the power of information, and can twist it or neglect to cover it.
With that in mind, I don't think there is a middle ground governance wise for someone like a Fidel Castro, who, it seems, was as true to his vision as he could have been.
The consequences paid by the Cuban people who would be critical of all this were subject to the pain inflicted, not by their own government, but rather by those governments who felt the want to force their will on Cuba.
One aspect of this argument that never seems to get attention from people who disagree with governments such as Castro's is the affect marketing entities have.
As an example in today's US political climate. The media has filtered so much information about foreign policy out during the 2016 campaign that the vast majority who voted for Hillary Clinton did so based on the absence of it. My guess is many less would have voted for her had the information been available.
Marketing entities have the power of information, and can twist it or neglect to cover it.
With that in mind, I don't think there is a middle ground governance wise for someone like a Fidel Castro, who, it seems, was as true to his vision as he could have been.
The consequences paid by the Cuban people who would be critical of all this were subject to the pain inflicted, not by their own government, but rather by those governments who felt the want to force their will on Cuba.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
So Castro is gone
How's Galbally doing these days?
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
So Castro is gone
I have long been fascinated with Fidel Castro.
He has probably been the one individual in my lifetime to have the greatest impact on my known world. I have been around to witness almost his entire career.
His actions and the impact of them has influenced so much of my life. We moved to Florida about the same time he and his army sent Batista packing.
I met some of the earliest refugees from his coup in the first year I attended school in Florida.
My wife was in Havana when the coup took place. She was given a choice of joining the Revolution, or returning to the States by the Brothers' own guards.
I have a lot of respect for what he did in Cuba.
I don't know if the Cuba of today will long survive his passing.
He has probably been the one individual in my lifetime to have the greatest impact on my known world. I have been around to witness almost his entire career.
His actions and the impact of them has influenced so much of my life. We moved to Florida about the same time he and his army sent Batista packing.
I met some of the earliest refugees from his coup in the first year I attended school in Florida.
My wife was in Havana when the coup took place. She was given a choice of joining the Revolution, or returning to the States by the Brothers' own guards.
I have a lot of respect for what he did in Cuba.
I don't know if the Cuba of today will long survive his passing.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
So Castro is gone
LarsMac;1503066 wrote: Well, most of my Cubano friends and relatives would claim otherwise. I'm sure he did some good for the Cuban people at some point, but he and his brother caused a lot of heartache, as well.
Well they would wouldn't they - being Cuban exiles and all.
I'm not sure they'd be classed as a representative sample
Well they would wouldn't they - being Cuban exiles and all.
I'm not sure they'd be classed as a representative sample
So Castro is gone
Those in Cuba are quite at liberty to show their respect or to stay at home. It seems to me that a very large proportion of them are choosing to honor the man who kept their country independent.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... t-respects
Were I faced with the choice of being Cuban or Haitian I know how I'd answer. Cuba has retained its independence from capitalism and Haiti hasn't for as long as I can remember. I congratulate the Cubans on their achievement.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... t-respects
Were I faced with the choice of being Cuban or Haitian I know how I'd answer. Cuba has retained its independence from capitalism and Haiti hasn't for as long as I can remember. I congratulate the Cubans on their achievement.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
So Castro is gone
Bryn Mawr;1503121 wrote: Well they would wouldn't they - being Cuban exiles and all.
I'm not sure they'd be classed as a representative sample
True enough. They are the ones who either left on their own accord, or were expelled (See the Mariel Boatlift)
The Castros never really tolerated disagreement with their policies. Whatever good they did in the world was offset by a less that stellar human rights record.
Something we may soon be able to say about our own future Fearless Leader.
I'm not sure they'd be classed as a representative sample
True enough. They are the ones who either left on their own accord, or were expelled (See the Mariel Boatlift)
The Castros never really tolerated disagreement with their policies. Whatever good they did in the world was offset by a less that stellar human rights record.
Something we may soon be able to say about our own future Fearless Leader.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
So Castro is gone
LarsMac;1503126 wrote: True enough. They are the ones who either left on their own accord, or were expelled (See the Mariel Boatlift)
The Castros never really tolerated disagreement with their policies. Whatever good they did in the world was offset by a less that stellar human rights record.
Something we may soon be able to say about our own future Fearless Leader.
I would suggest that, post Guantanamo, it can already be said.
The Castros never really tolerated disagreement with their policies. Whatever good they did in the world was offset by a less that stellar human rights record.
Something we may soon be able to say about our own future Fearless Leader.
I would suggest that, post Guantanamo, it can already be said.
So Castro is gone
I think that can be said post Reagan-Bush-Clinton-Bush-Obama. Now with Reagan's then adviser, now Supreme Court Head Justice, John Roberts, It's been juiced.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
So Castro is gone
LarsMac;1503126 wrote:
Something we may soon be able to say about our own future Fearless Leader.
You mean Foolish, not Fearless. Please, no jokes, it isn't remotely amusing.
Something we may soon be able to say about our own future Fearless Leader.
You mean Foolish, not Fearless. Please, no jokes, it isn't remotely amusing.
So Castro is gone
AnneBoleyn;1503133 wrote: You mean Foolish, not Fearless. Please, no jokes, it isn't remotely amusing.
Grasping at humor is all that is keeping me relatively sane at the moment.
Grasping at humor is all that is keeping me relatively sane at the moment.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
So Castro is gone
LarsMac;1503135 wrote: Grasping at humor is all that is keeping me relatively sane at the moment.
Nothing is working for me & I wager it won't last too long for you.
Nothing is working for me & I wager it won't last too long for you.
So Castro is gone
AnneBoleyn;1503141 wrote: Nothing is working for me & I wager it won't last too long for you.
I dunno. The first couple of days were really rough. Fortunately, I had work to be done and couldn't wallow in my misery for long.
A fifth of Woodford Reserve helped, too.
A little note from one of my favorite people:
I have survived a Nixon, a Ray Gun and assorted Bushes and I say unto you that this too shall pass. Some fine day we will dump the gobbledygook that is the Electoral College and go with popular vote. Until then stay in the light and keep on keepin' on.
- Wavy Gravy
I dunno. The first couple of days were really rough. Fortunately, I had work to be done and couldn't wallow in my misery for long.
A fifth of Woodford Reserve helped, too.
A little note from one of my favorite people:
I have survived a Nixon, a Ray Gun and assorted Bushes and I say unto you that this too shall pass. Some fine day we will dump the gobbledygook that is the Electoral College and go with popular vote. Until then stay in the light and keep on keepin' on.
- Wavy Gravy
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence