Face of the church

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:09 pm

the real problem here is the 'media's' reliance upon meaningless polls to generate 'news'.

ask any question just the right way, and you can predispose people to the responses.

"as a good catholic, and keeping in mind that the core of catholicism is the ascendancy and authority of the pope in all matters spiritual and moral, do you think you will be a good catholic and follow the pope's guidance?"

"knowing that the world is terribly overpopulated, and that a pragmatic, modern approach to human matters is highly desireable in approaching the problems we have in the twenty first century, do you believe as a catholic that you are required to follow every edict of the papacy to the letter, or do you believe that the pope, while ostensibly infallible, is really only human, and therefore, you have a right to make your own moral decisions?"

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:21 pm

The majority of "True Catholics" that i know, are hypocrits, so the poll does'nt surprise me at all.

What does amaze me about the religion, is the stance against Homosexuality and sex outside of marriage.

Yet fails to aknowledge the abuse that has gone on by priests over the years!!

Dunno about "Face of the church" more like TWO faces of the church.

Agnes · Post by **Agnes** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:02 pm

abbey wrote: The majority of "True Catholics" that i know, are hypocrits, so the poll does'nt surprise me at all.

What does amaze me about the religion, is the stance against Homosexuality and sex outside of marriage.

Yet fails to aknowledge the abuse that has gone on by priests over the years!!

Dunno about "Face of the church" more like TWO faces of the church.

True and well said. The priests abuse has been out for ever. I can only imagine what my mother went through, they were Catholics with a rigid background of faith that produced many children. The good old Frenchies had large families in faith. Gay Marriage should be legal, they are people, end of story. I now understand and hope well for them.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:04 pm

Agnes wrote: = Gay Marriage should be legal, they are people, end of story. I now understand and hope well for them.Mmm, interesting.......:sneaky: LOL

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:13 pm

anastrophe wrote: t

ask any question just the right way, and you can predispose people to the responses.

LOL! Outstanding, Anastrophe. I was thinking the same thing myself. I'm teaching media literacy tonight and that's on the agenda.

Want to show that kids are interested in sports? Take a poll after school....because the only kids still there are in sports programs!

It's like taking a poll in church on Sunday to see how many people believe in God.

I did this in class: I went around the classroom asking students if they liked the color pink, but I only asked girls. Strangely, the color pink proved to be the most popular color! Then I asked the boys, "What's your problem? Get on the Pink Bandwagon!"

telaquapacky · Post by **telaquapacky** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:49 pm

Why is anyone surprised that when they poll professed Roman Catholics, that many of them don't agree with some official church teachings? I have had many conversations with Catholics here, and found that to be true. I asked one who complained about the church why he didn't leave, and his answer was, as I understood it, this is the church he was brought up in and didn't see any reason to leave. "Catholic" means "universal." To many people there just isn't any other church. They wouldn't know where to look if they wanted to find another one. To many people church identity is just a given- they never question it because that would seem to be disloyal to family or to their own self-concept- never mind that their personal beliefs and practices have travelled far afield.

I would like to say that this happens with RC because it's so "generic" a form of Christianity, but it happens in every church. People just believe what they want to and wear whatever label suits them.

I happen to go 100% with my church's teachings, but I also see that the culture of my church has been evolving over the last 25 years since I joined, and me along with it

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:22 am

telaquapacky wrote:

I happen to go 100% with my church's teachings, but I also see that the culture of my church has been evolving over the last 25 years since I joined, and me along with it
I envy you. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve never been able to go along 100%. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve changed four times hoping that I could become a member of the 100% club. I never seem to make it. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m as close as IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve ever been right now and there are several things I would change if I could. The nice thing about where I am now is that having a different opinion is accepted and even encouraged on most subjects. When two of us get together there are usually at least three opinions.

Post by **nev** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:16 pm

abbey wrote: The majority of "True Catholics" that i know, are hypocrits, so the poll does'nt surprise me at all.

What does amaze me about the religion, is the stance against Homosexuality and sex outside of marriage.

Yet fails to aknowledge the abuse that has gone on by priests over the years!!

Dunno about "Face of the church" more like TWO faces of the church.

Abbey,

I am a "True Catholic". Perhaps I am among the majority you feel are hypocrites.

I know what I believe in, what I agree with the Catholic heirarchy on and what I do not; what I accept and what I fight against. But at the end of the day truly I am a Roman Catholic...behave like one...proud to be so...perhaps a hypocrite at that...but mostly quite contented where I am.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:51 pm

nev wrote: Abbey,

I am a "True Catholic". Perhaps I am among the majority you feel are hypocrites.

I know what I believe in, what I agree with the Catholic heirarchy on and what I do not; what I accept and what I fight against. But at the end of the day truly I am a Roman Catholic...behave like one...proud to be so...perhaps a hypocrite at that...but mostly quite contented where I am.
there's an old saying - the last true christian died on the cross.

i'm not a christian, myself, though i was raised in the church and am fascinated by it. but i think the saying above has a certain bittersweet truth to it. all of us who have come 'after christ' can only hope for his grace, and hope to emulate how he really was - loving the sinner, embracing those who are shunned, etc.. but we we cannot hope to be truly christlike, not in this life. whether there is another life after this one, i leave as a question i'll have an answer to eventually.

telaquapacky · Post by **telaquapacky** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:20 pm

Clint wrote: I envy you. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve never been able to go along 100%. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve changed four times hoping that I could become a member of the 100% club. I never seem to make it. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m as close as IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve ever been right now and there are several things I would change if I could. The nice thing about where I am now is that having a different opinion is accepted and even encouraged on most subjects. When two of us get together there are usually at least three opinions.I joined my church (definitely not Roman Catholic) as a result of some uncanny circumstances and prayer 25 years ago, leaving a totally rebellious life for a devoted one. It was clear to me that God led me there. But some of the doctrines were very different from mainstream Christianity. I had to check those things out very carefully in Scripture to make sure I wasn't imagining the whole thing. More immediately, I needed to be very cautious and critical, lest later I might find something out that would disillusion me, and my worldly friends (whom I left behind) would say, "Oh, that was another one of Telaquapacky's 'things'." So I started out sort of skeptical, but my Bible and historical studies uncovered only more and more evidence supporting the new belief.

When it's your choice, you check it out.

But not everyone even wishes to hold a set of distinctive, unchanging doctrines. Some prefer to be in a state of flexible uncertainty. Orthodoxy isn't for everyone.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:34 pm

Joined: 26 Feb 2004

Posts: 252

Location: Gabriola Island

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:20 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post

Micah 6:8, though in the OT does fairly clearly and suscintly tell us what Christianity is about. It is about the "way" and many either don't understand or care. But the world would indeed be a better place if it were followed.

"He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God."

Justice in the Biblical sense of the word is distributive justice as opposed to retributive justice.

These things are the opiate of the people, hiding from reality, seeking comfort etc? I don't think so.

The collection plate is not guilt money. It is money used to promote the above whether one is Christian or any other faith.

Too many folks have been listening to the fundamentalist/literalist group too long and have lost the true message of Yeshua of Nazareth. It is indeed a difficult path to follow because it requires of you, everything, and most aren't willing to do so. Thus they seek their secuity in drugs, or comfort or whatever.

On the other hand the truly faithful find a profound meaasure of peace in following the path that Yeshua laid out. Note, I said peace, not an easy life.

Shalom

Ted Very Happy

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:32 pm

JAB :-6

I like that.

Shalom

Ted :-6

telaquapacky · Post by **telaquapacky** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:36 am

JAB wrote: Ahh, but there are some that would say if you believe 100% in your church's teaching than that borders on the cults that are so prevalent these days. Please don't get me wrong - I don't mean to imply that your church is a cult for I know not what your church is.Ha ha ha! This is nothing new to me. A lot of people think my church is a cult. I think of a cult as being something someone joins without ever questioning it's leader or it's message. My experience was that I tested everything carefully and found that I agreed. I can articulate passionately every point, and oft times wear out my welcome doing so!

I'm not at all bothered by what you've said. Being somewhat a non-conformist, I'm comfortable being out of the mainstream- that also is something that's not for everyone.

I also gain great comfort knowing that you don't have to be the particular brand of Christian I am to be saved. If my church taught you had to be one of us, that would be a terrible burden to bear- besides being false!

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:02 pm

Many years ago and far far away, a group broke away from our church and started a new one. They are so sure they are right that when someone moves away, they pray earnestly for their salvation because they believe they will never find the truth again. If they are right, the rest of us are lost. How do people get to the point they can believe that way?

telaquapacky · Post by **telaquapacky** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:11 pm

canaan wrote: I believe Martin Luther had the right idea when he taught that you don't need someone else to interpret scripture for you. We are all capable of doing that ourselves. However, I don't think he took into account the chaos that would cause when some nut job misinterprets scripture and convinces others that his teachings are sound. I grew up in a different denomination than I am now. I do not follow men. I do not take a mans word for anything. If what they teach does not line up with scripture then I walk away from it. The problem is, there are too many people who go to church, listen to the pastors teachings and assume that what they are being taught is true. I have several family members who are like that. When I try to call them on it and ask them where on earth they get all that bologna from...they can't tell me. It's always "my pastor says". Well, sorry, not good enough. At the same time, they won't admit they are wrong because if they did that they would be admitting that they are clueless. It's not religion that causes the chaos...it's ignorance.Amen to that!

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:08 pm

If that is what you think, it is ok with me. But I happen to disagree. The Bible is not inerrant nor was it dectated by God. It is in fact man's response to his experience of the Divine. It was never meant to be read as literal history though there are kernels of history spread throughout. It is primarily a religious book and was intended thus.

Shalom

Ted :-6

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:16 am

anastrophe wrote: the real problem here is the 'media's' reliance upon meaningless polls to generate 'news'.

ask any question just the right way, and you can predispose people to the responses.

"as a good catholic, and keeping in mind that the core of catholicism is the ascendancy and authority of the pope in all matters spiritual and moral, do you think you will be a good catholic and follow the pope's guidance?"

"knowing that the world is terribly overpopulated, and that a pragmatic, modern approach to human matters is highly desireable in approaching the problems we have in the twenty first century, do you believe as a catholic that you are required to follow every edict of the papacy to the letter, or do you believe that the pope, while ostensibly infallible, is really only human, and therefore, you have a right to make your own moral decisions?"Perhaps that is why the Catholic Church will not allow East African Catholics use condoms. Africa is overpopulated, and Aids is rampent. Suffer little children that come unto thee.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun May 01, 2005 7:56 pm

canaan :-6

The Bible is composed of myth, legend, folk tale, short story, poetry, fiction, philosophy, theology and some kernels of history scattered throughout. The Pentateuch was hands down in several forms orally for hundreds of years until it was finally written down during the Babylonian exile.

None of this negates the truths that the Bible teaches. For something does not have to be historical to present profound truths. Dickens in "Oliver Twist" a work of fiction presents truths about his era. Just so the Bible can and does present powerful truths in many ways, just as teachers do.

Part of interpreting the Bible requires that we understand the style in which is was written; midrash. Midrash is a style of writing and interpretation and makes a great deal of us of metaphor.

The Bible contains inconsistencies both internal and external. History and archaeology have shown the Bible to be historically inaccurate. But then the Bible was not written to be read as history. It is a religious book and was written to be read as that.

As for outlining what is history and what is not, I am not going to itemize everything in the Bible but I will give some examples. The creations stories are pure myth. The stories of Noah are legend. The book of "Ruth" is a short story. They all have profound truths to teach.

The birth stories of Jesus are pure midrash. That however does not negate the fact that Jesus was indeed born to Mary with Joseph his natural father. He grew up and was eventually crucified and raised in some miraculous way. We do not know what happened at Easter but it was so profound that it changed the course of history. The Risen Lord's presence was felt and has been by millions down throughout the millenia.

Shalom

Ted :-6

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Mon May 02, 2005 3:34 am

In Ireland today, most people aged under 30,or ever 40 could not care less for Church. It would interfer to much in their lifestyle.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:46 am

telaquapacky wrote: Amen to that!Amen to that again:p

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:00 pm

The face of the church is changing. There is an emerging paradigm that is going to replace the outmoded and outworn traditional paradigm.

It is time to end our absurdly complex religiosity and return to the spiritual basis on which the Christian faith and all other great faiths in the world were founded. It is time to end the "my God is better then your God" routine which has done more to divide this world then anything else.

There is no doubt in my mind that each of the great faiths will continue to exist but they will exist within a major change wherein we all begin to recognize that God is the basic source of all spirituality. We will finally come to realize that "God is One' and that we have been doing both God and humanity a great disservice by our insistence on exclusivity.

Shalom

Ted :-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:01 pm

One of the great changes that is coming with the emerging paradigm is the realization that the Bible is not the literal "Word of God'. That God does speak to Christians through the BIble but He did not dictate it. In fact we are comeing to a realization that the Bible is in fact not the court of last resort. It contains the writings of many folks and some of that writing is clearly not in agreement with the teachings of Yeshua.

In fact it is my hope that instead of throwing the Bible out, because it does contain some very good wisdom, we will allow it to be expanded by the modern theologians and thus bring it up to date.

It is not the court of last resort and in fact to make it such is idolatrous because we put more faith in the "written word"then in the common sense and in the great writings of modern theologians who have much to input to modern Christianity.

Shalom

Ted :-6