Tail docking and ear cropping *eewwww*

[BabyRider]

This is a "practice" I have never understood, or liked. Does everyone know what is involved in this barbaric practice? I'll tell ya, but it's pretty disturbing, especially when you hear about stupid people who do this ON THEIR OWN with scissors.

God, people can be such barbarians. (I do need a reminder which breeds are not required to have this done to them to be in the show ring)



When the litter is born and the breed is "required" to have short ears or tail, the breeder takes a (hopefully) sterile pair of scissors and trims most of the tail and several vertebrea and/or the edges of the ears to make the ears stand up, like a German Shepard's. I worked for a Cocker Spaniel breeder, and watched her do this with many litters of puppies. No, it's really not THAT bad, although I can't imagine that it's very pleasant for the pup. I watched her do the tails on every litter born for a year It's actually pretty disturbing, or it was to me. I just can't understand why humans decide this is a good thing to do for a dog. This is a completely UNNATURAL abuse!! (Is there a "natural" one????) Yes, I get that the tail has served some function, but let's face it: cocker spaniels are house pets, not hunters anymore. Leave the tails intact. And the ears? If they aren't meant to stand on end, WHY do we want them to???? A German Sheperd could tear your arm off your body for this insult! (Yes Val, I know Tamsen would NEVER do anything like that!! )

But, I still hate this. Anyone ever had the pleasure of seeing this butchering done to a loved pet? I hope it's something you never have to see. It's about as disgusting as de-clawing a cat, at ANY age. (Yeah, you don't want my opinion on THAT surgery.)

People, if owners would stop purchasing dogs that have had this done, it just might be something we can eliminate from the AKC practice. The most popular breeds I can think of right now who do not deserve this treatment are Dobermans and Great Danes. Simple, unvarnished torture. Breeders, be ASHAMED of yourselves.

[Lulu2]

I agree, BabyRider! I'm told that ear-cropping originated to help prevent dogs from getting ear infections/parasites. Right! I hate to see this!

[BabyRider]

Lulu2;490806 wrote: I agree, BabyRider! I'm told that ear-cropping originated to help prevent dogs from getting ear infections/parasites. Right! I hate to see this!
I have not heard that but I can tell you that THAT is a big huge smelly pile of BS!!!! No real solid reason can be given to me. I just don't buy it.

[Lulu2]

BR, I think more and more breeders are pressing for the "natural" look! We can hope so, any way.

[Lulu2]

Mrs. K....think of a Doberman, a Schnauzer or a Great Dane, for example....their ears are cropped to achieve that pointed look!

You can see the difference in the Dane photos shown here.

http://images.google.com/images?q=great ... s&ct=title

[BabyRider]

Lulu2;490829 wrote: Mrs. K....think of a Doberman, a Schnauzer or a Great Dane, for example....their ears are cropped to achieve that pointed look!



You can see the difference in the Dane photos shown here.



http://images.google.com/images?q=great ... s&ct=title
Thanks for posting this, Lulu. I think if more people were just AWARE of what this does to these majestic dogs things would be a bit different.

[Lulu2]

You're welcome! I've mentioned before that my daughter does Dane "rescue" and so I know something about these loveable giants! She's got four now...with various ear configurations. Apparently, a lot of people like that "clipped" look....I wonder how they'd enjoy having THEIR ears chopped up?

[BabyRider]

Lulu2;490833 wrote: You're welcome! I've mentioned before that my daughter does Dane "rescue" and so I know something about these loveable giants! She's got four now...with various ear configurations. Apparently, a lot of people like that "clipped" look....I wonder how they'd enjoy having THEIR ears chopped up?
Lulu, once again you have given me a great idea! Let's start making anyone who wants to have this butchering done to their dog have it done to them, too. I love how Danes look with natural ears.

And I think your daughter is FANTASTIC. One of Bullet's Blue Angel Brothers does Greyhound rescue. Big tough biker, huh? :yh_rotfl :yh_bigsmi

[Lulu2]

Rescue greyhounds make wonderful pets! I "sit" for three of them! I've decided that once my Lulu leaves me, I'll probably take at least one greyhound.

THEY ARE LOVE LUMPS! COUCH POTATOS! So graceful and elegant and sweet!

(Do you suppose we could get a vigilante group together....armed with SHEARS...and visit those people who've cropped their dogs' ears? Hmmmmm?:sneaky: )

[BabyRider]

Lulu2;490838 wrote: Rescue greyhounds make wonderful pets! I "sit" for three of them! I've decided that once my Lulu leaves me, I'll probably take at least one greyhound.



THEY ARE LOVE LUMPS! COUCH POTATOS! So graceful and elegant and sweet!



(Do you suppose we could get a vigilante group together....armed with SHEARS...and visit those people who've cropped their dogs' ears? Hmmmmm?:sneaky: )
That's a fabulous idea, and I can name a whole BUNCH of bikers who would enjoy that project!!! Oh YEAH. :sneaky:

[Lulu2]

What fun! We could design some interesting HATS to wear, hiding our identity....they'd have POINTED, CLIPPED EARS! :wah:

[BabyRider]

Lulu2;490842 wrote: What fun! We could design some interesting HATS to wear, hiding our identity....they'd have POINTED, CLIPPED EARS! :wah:
Check that: pointed, clipped HUMAN ears. Every dog owner's that ever abused their dog this way.

[AussiePam]

I don't know whether this is actually cruel to the dog or not, but I can't understand why anyone would want to shave bits off a poodle, turn them into some kind of topiaried tree, and then dye the remaining hair bright pink!

Attached files

[Lulu2]

It reminds me of people who dress their dogs in costumes and put sunglasses on them, for example! I don't understand the PINK part....but I'm told the clip was designed to protect the poodle when it was hunting. Supposedly, they're hunting dogs. Go figure.

[AussiePam]

Yes, German hunting dogs. I can't honestly see the Junker of old trotting into his woods, gun over his shoulder, and pink doggie mincing along after him... nar... well actually I suppose it might reduce the deer to rolling round the ground in helpless laugher - thereby making an easy target.

[BabyRider]

Lulu2;490849 wrote: It reminds me of people who dress their dogs in costumes and put sunglasses on them, for example! I don't understand the PINK part....but I'm told the clip was designed to protect the poodle when it was hunting. Supposedly, they're hunting dogs. Go figure.
That part IS true. Believe it or don't but poodles were excellent hunters and that goofy, weird haircut was designed to keep them warm in water. The little tufts protect the joints that are exposed to the cold!

[AussiePam]

WOW, BR. I take it all back, then. Well not the pink stuff, but the other. The poodle was considered a noble dog, not a clothing accessory, that much I know. It was also associated with the devil (who appeared to Faust in that guise).

[BabyRider]

AussiePam;490859 wrote: WOW, BR. I take it all back, then. Well not the pink stuff, but the other. The poodle was considered a noble dog, not a clothing accessory, that much I know. It was also associated with the devil (who appeared to Faust in that guise).
I don't know a lot of things, but I have been studying dogs since I could read at 5. A kind of passion of mine. Weird for a died-in-the-blue bowhunter, I think. :wah:

[rachelg]

Ok, there is a reason the cocker spaniel's tail is docked, and while I always have my vet do it, I think it is hardly felt by the 3 day old puppies. Most of them hardly make a sound. I have more trouble out of some dogs to do their nails every week. A dog low in the brush when hunting is prone to getting caught in it and the tail is a very accident prone appendage. Unlike some taller bird dogs, the cocker is the smallest of the sporting group. Also having a long tailed breed, Afghan hounds, I really favor the short tail. I have never had a single Afghan that didn't break its tail once and most have broken them several times, which they did cry about:( They also are prone to hitting them on things like the coffee table and the refrigerator and making them bleed. Then they bleed all over the house. I don't know much about any of the breeds that have docked ears, but I greatly prefer the docked tail on my cockers. I have never once had a cocker that had an accident with his tail, break his tail or have any complication resulting from docking his tail, quite the opposite actually.

[BabyRider]

rachelg;490862 wrote: Ok, there is a reason the cocker spaniel's tail is docked, and while I always have my vet do it, I think it is hardly felt by the 3 day old puppies. Most of them hardly make a sound. I have more trouble out of some dogs to do their nails every week. A dog low in the brush when hunting is prone to getting caught in it and the tail is a very accident prone appendage. Unlike some taller bird dogs, the cocker is the smallest of the sporting group. Also having a long tailed breed, Afghan hounds, I really favor the short tail. I have never had a single Afghan that didn't break its tail once and most have broken them several times, which they did cry about:( They also are prone to hitting them on things like the coffee table and the refrigerator and making them bleed. Then they bleed all over the house. I don't know much about any of the breeds that have docked ears, but I greatly prefer the docked tail on my cockers. I have never once had a cocker that had an accident with his tail, break his tail or have any complication resulting from docking his tail, quite the opposite actually.
Now HERE'S a face I am really happy to see again. Also one who knows quite a bit more about dogs than I do. Thanks for joining in Rachel! Great to see you here again.

All we're missing now is Val!!

[rachelg]

Also, regarding th e poodle. It is an exaggeration of the original hunting trim that we see in the show ring for this breed, but don't discredit the poodle for his fanciers' habits. I have had the pleasure to know many many standard and minature poodles and there is nothing sissy or wimpy about them. They have a natural retrieving ability that remains in spite of generations of breeding for nearly every quality besides hunting, and they are probably the most intelligent breed I have gotten to know well. The hairstyle is too much for me to learn and I have the most fun with dogs in showing them, so I will stick with my cockers, but there are many people who actively show and do field trials with poodles out there.

[AussiePam]

BabyRider;490861 wrote: I don't know a lot of things, but I have been studying dogs since I could read at 5. A kind of passion of mine. Weird for a died-in-the-blue bowhunter, I think. :wah:


I don't find that weird, BR. Ethical hunters - and I'm sure you're one - are very careful not to shoot (gun or bow) unless they are pretty sure of getting a clean kill. It's not acceptable to leave a wounded, suffering animal.

[BabyRider]

AussiePam;490869 wrote: I don't find that weird, BR. Ethical hunters - and I'm sure you're one - are very careful not to shoot (gun or bow) unless they are pretty sure of getting a clean kill. It's not acceptable to leave a wounded, suffering animal.
Absolutely right. It's one of the reasons I refuse to buy the "latest and greatest" bow. Since mine is comparably slow, I CAN'T take a shot further than 15 yards away. Not very often you get ANY deer that close. I should have remembered that you would know that, Pam. It's one thing I wish EVERYONE knew about hunters. Well, MOST hunters.

[Lulu2]

rachelg....I used to be someone who laughed at poodles...and then, I inherited one! Believe me, I'm now a fan! They're so smart...they're scary!

[BabyRider]

Lulu2;490884 wrote: rachelg....I used to be someone who laughed at poodles...and then, I inherited one! Believe me, I'm now a fan! They're so smart...they're scary!
One of the smartest breeds out there.

[rachelg]

Here is a champion minature poodle from one of the websites I go to a lot, competing in a field trial, the best of both worlds:) I hope this works:o

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[rachelg]

Actually, not to be argumentative or anything, but cockers are still used in hunting and field trials have really taken an upswing in popularity among the same people who show them. Take a look at this cute-pie:)

Attached files

[RedGlitter]

I have had three cockers in my life and sadly all had docked tails. Whatever jerk cut off my current cocker's tail should be jailed. It is so short it is nothing more than a bump.



Before my family was educated about neutering, my parents bred our springer. She had 13 pups and they all cried when their tails were cut off.

I have heard all kinds of arguments for cutting off tails ranging from "I don't want my knick knacks wiped off the coffee table" to "have you ever had a Rottweiler smack you with his natural tail? It hurts." Sadly again, I have never SEEN a Rottweiler with a natural tail except in photos and they are beautiful!

If that kind of malarkey held true, my Dal wouldn't have a tail either. If I'm stupid enough to stand behind him, he will sometimes whack me with a wagging tail and whose fault is that?



I have heard all the excuses for whacking off tails and ears. But my feeling is that in this instance, the dogs are good enough just the way God made them.



Don't EVEN get me started on declawing cats!! Those are fighting words and I will hold the cats' ground against anyone. I have lost friends over it. My oldest friend of over 20 years has two declawed cats- because her furniture was more important to her! When I found out I told her to never speak to me of it again and that if she ever declawed another cat, our friendship was over.

[RedGlitter]

That is horrible. Those poor dogs. Those stupid people.



I learned my vet routinely asks clients ifthey want their cats declawed when they get fixed. Lots of people say yes. I think most ppl think it's just a glorified manicure and the vet doesn't bother to tell them what is entailed. I think it's unconscionable.

[pantsonfire321@aol.com]

Ok, this makes me a bit of a hypocrite but my Rott has a docked tail , when i bought him i was told his tail was removed by a vet and to be honest i didn't question it because i didn't know much about tail docking, i later found out it was the husband of the couple and not the vet .When the people i got my dog off had a second litter (now these people are friends). I found out that the husband had done it again . He actually cut the tails off himself when the pups were a few days old - something he did with a sharp knife . I reported them to the RSPCA (they still don't know it was me - they blamed a neighbour) . Now the RSPCA went round and investigated and the guy got away with it because he told them that his brother had done the docking and you know what the RSPCA didn't even follow it up . I don't agree with any animal mutilation because i love animals but i do prefer Rotts that are docked .....and yes i have seen both with a tail and without

[koan]

I had a minpin and her tail was already docked when I bought her. I had to have it redone because the skin was too tightly stitched around it. Luckily they had docked it on the long side so removing an extra joint still left her a reasonably sized tail. If it isn't done well then they gnaw at the tail because the bone is pushing against the tight skin. She was fine after it was redone.

We had a brief discussion about ear docking because, not having had a purebred before I didn't know why such things were done. He said there was no justification for it. It had no benefit to the dog and he refused to ever perform that kind of surgery. He was a really great vet.

From what I understand, minpins were bred to hunt out mice and rats. Docking the tail protected them from having it bit. I'm not convinced that there is any good reason for tail docking anymore but I'm no expert either. If it's done, make sure it is done by a competent vet. Poor thing had such a hard time until we fixed it.

[RedGlitter]

pantsonfire321@aol.com;490912 wrote: Ok, this makes me a bit of a hypocrite but my Rott has a docked tail , when i bought him i was told his tail was removed by a vet ...[snip] ... don't agree with any animal mutilation because i love animals but i do prefer Rotts that are docked .....and yes i have seen both with a tail and without


I'm not sure that makes you a hypocrite, Pants. You acquired your dog already docked, you didn't do it yourself. And maybe you do like the look of a

docked tail but that doesn't necessarily mean you'd have it done.

And good on you for reporting that jerk!!

[rachelg]

Wendybird;490899 wrote: VET FACES ACTION FOR CUTTING DOG TAILS

Date : 06.12.06

A Vet has been accused of chopping off puppies' tails without good reason.The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons has brought disciplinary action against John McKenna, who practises in London Road, Cheltenham.

He is accused of docking the tails of 11 Weimaraner puppies at the request of the owner, known only as Mrs M.

Mr McKenna is alleged to have taken the action "despite having known or ought to have known there were no therapeutic or prophylactic" benefits for doing so, according to the RCVS professional code of conduct.

He is accused by the body of carrying out an unacceptable mutilation of the puppies in January this year.

He is also accused of 'disgraceful conduct in a professional respect'.

He will face the charges in front of the RCVS' disciplinary committee in London on December 12. The hearing is expected to last three days.

If found guilty, the maximum punishment is being struck off the RCVS register, which means he would be banned from practice. The minimum penalty is a warning.

Docking tails is only legal if the animal is a working dog.

Mr McKenna, who has practised for more than 30 years, said: "I was told these dogs might grow up to become working dogs, so I docked their tails.

"It isn't illegal to dock the tails of working dogs. It's an exception, it's something I maybe only carry out once a year."

I actually know John - he used to be our vet. He has now been suspended for a month and will probably lose a lot of his clients and end up closing the surgery. Further details have recently appeared in the paper to say that one of the puppies died and 2 ended up with infections. No anaesthetic was used on the puppies and they cried and lost a lot of blood during the procedure. It was the owner of the puppies that lodged the complaint about John even though she phoned just about every vet in Cheltenham to find someone willing to dock the tails.

John was wrong in what he did and he has admitted it. This will probably ruin him.

But who will punish the owner?


Wow, it sounds like to me that the owner was the negligent one here to me. If the puppies lost a lot of blood, they must have been much too old to dock. At three to 5 days, a puppies blood vessels and nerve endings are not fully formed and the bone is still only grisel. This is why puppies can't regulate their own body temperature for the first ten days and why puppies often die of chilling during this period. I know they don't bleed because I go back with the vet to make sure he doesn't dock it too short. Most vets think a cocker is supposed to have about a 1 inch tail, but in fact they should have 2 to 4 inches, depending on the size of the dog. Unless your vet often saw puppies of that breed at the proper age, it would be impossible for him to know their ages, but the owner knew what it was. Since you don't often have the procedure done in your country, he probably hasn't seen many at all. If the puppies got infections from tail docking, their conditions were probably not clean at home. A large breed litter with a lot of pups is very hard for the mother to keep clean and the owner has to help her. If I was that vet, I would turn the charges around on her.

[valerie]

BabyRider;490866 wrote: Now HERE'S a face I am really happy to see again. Also one who knows quite a bit more about dogs than I do. Thanks for joining in Rachel! Great to see you here again.

All we're missing now is Val!!




Here I am!



:void(0)">



The ones to go after here are the AKC, unfortunately. As far as I know,

dogs that don't conform to the breed standard can't be shown or won't

win. That throws you back to irresponsible BYB's instead of a breeder

who cares about the breed and titling/vetting the breeding pair BEFORE

they are bred. Not a good situation.



I had a family poodle as a child, she was a great, great girl and very

smart. We used to get her the "puppy" clip, face feet, base of tail.

I learned to do it myself. We had a couple litters, and dad docked the

tails himself. (This was the 1960's, folks, I don't advocate that EVER

again, but those were the times)



Some gsds have "soft" ears and are variously glued or taped when

young to try and keep them up, but again, it's a fault and you

should not breed that animal.



It's a bit of a tough question for me, maybe it shouldn't be... more so

with the tail docking than the ears. Humans have always changed their

animals. Look at the difference between a Clydesdale and a miniature

horse. We drastically changed Tamsen when she had her surgery. Would

I do it again? No. Certainly not with a 10 1/2 year old dog and certainly

not with a front leg.



Where do you stop then? Do you not take off dewclaws? I had a Sibe

tear a dewclaw in the car one time, blood all over. (Vinyl seats,

thank goodness) I know there's the cosmetic versus health question.

But I have seen quite a few cases of "happy tail" and they aren't fun.

Poodles especially with all that curly hair if the tail was left long...

dirt, stickers, feces... yeah if you have an owner who is lax but how

many of them are just that?



My friend with the Christmas tree gsd gets hate mail every year for that

pic. And that dog lives a very, very good raw fed life. With his 3 raw fed

gsd siblings and 2 other breed siblings and several kitty siblings. Is

dressing him up once in a while abuse? Cruelty?



I guess what I'm trying to say is the jury, surprisingly enough to some of

you, is still out for me.



I do sincerely enjoy the discussion with all of you, though.

[rachelg]

BabyRider;490866 wrote: Now HERE'S a face I am really happy to see again. Also one who knows quite a bit more about dogs than I do. Thanks for joining in Rachel! Great to see you here again.

All we're missing now is Val!!


Now all the old gang is here!:-6

[911]

Lulu2;490849 wrote: It reminds me of people who dress their dogs in costumes and put sunglasses on them, for example! I don't understand the PINK part....but I'm told the clip was designed to protect the poodle when it was hunting. Supposedly, they're hunting dogs. Go figure.


Just keep in mind if your dog is one to stick his head out the window of a car, you may want to invest in goggles for him. Bits of sand, lint, gravel or anything like that can damage their eyes. Plus they get very dried out from the wind.

My grandfather was know for his bulldogs. They all had clipped tails and ears. He bought them that way. But when I got my bulldog, I didn't want his ears clipped but his tail had already been done. I love big floppy ears.

My back door neighbors lost their Yellow Lab, she was very old, and now has two beagles. Oh the horror! They make the worst racket. My heart drops everytime they bark. It sounds like they're caught in a trap! I don't think I will ever get used to it. I'm forever running to the window to check on them.

My Golden Retriever has a big tail with a mind of it's own. He is forever sweeping things off onto the floor. He has learned when I say, "Watch that crazy tailie" to calm down and not wag too much. But, that's only when he is near something new and doesn't know it's there. He looks at me like, "Well, you put it there!".

[BabyRider]

rachelg;490889 wrote: Actually, not to be argumentative or anything, but cockers are still used in hunting and field trials have really taken an upswing in popularity among the same people who show them. Take a look at this cute-pie:)
As I said, you would know better than I do, that's YOUR breed! Thanks for straightening me out, Rachel!!

[rachelg]

BabyRider;491403 wrote: As I said, you would know better than I do, that's YOUR breed! Thanks for straightening me out, Rachel!!
You're most welcome:) In spite of the injuries I've been reading about that you've had, you seem like the same person I used to know last year. One of the best things you possess is still here and that is the ability to debate an issue without closing your mind to other opinions or believing that you already have all the answers. That is what I enjoy about discussion forums, learning other people's ways of seeing things and learning new info.:-6

[nvalleyvee]

I finally figured out where our Mutt-Mutt got her ears. She had 2 sisters with definate pit bull traits. Well I finally saw one of these dogs that did not have its ears cropped.........LIGHT BULB..........it had the same cute tri-fold ears that lay on the head when they run. I had Rotties and never tail docked them.