Ukraine and Russia

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LarsMac
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by LarsMac »

Then it wobbled in the mid-70s, went a bit Marxist, the Russians went in to prop up the government,...
Um, I knew a family in the early 80's who managed to get out after the Russians came to "Prop up" the government. That's now how they described the Soviet incursion, at all.

If Bush Jr. had kept to himself, the Afghanis would have found their way out of the mess the Russians left.

I won't bother discussing Russia vs. USA. Both of them have been in a pissing contest since the days of Khrushchev, and used the little guys of the world as pawns in their game ( game that the US learned to play from the British), which, from what I have seen in the last twenty years, China is going to win.
Keep watching. Vlad's going to get sucker-punched by his newfound friends in the East pretty soon.
Oh, and China is buying up a boatload of farmland in the Americas.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

I think if I were China I'd buy Canada. Lots of potential, Canada.

In terms of who had the best theatrics, Khrushchev and his shoe at the UN wins hands down. It wasn't even his own shoe, he took it from one of his aides.

There was a time when a lot of nations tried hard to sublimate warfare into the Olympic Games, but then the Russians kept getting banned so that idea faded. It was a good idea, and we all got to stare amazed at the East German female weightlifters. I'm convinced my orientation was severely warped by events in the weightlifting sixties.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by G#Gill »

Hiya all. Hope everybody is OK.

I wonder what Pootin has in mind for those nuclear missiles he is housing in another country ? I am convinced that the bloke is a sandwich short of a picnic, and also that he has probably not got long to live (with a possible life-threatening illness), so he possibly wants to leave this mortal coil with a huge bang and should there be any survivors, he will always be remembered !
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

G#Gill wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:55 pm Hiya all. Hope everybody is OK.

I wonder what Pootin has in mind for those nuclear missiles he is housing in another country ? I am convinced that the bloke is a sandwich short of a picnic, and also that he has probably not got long to live (with a possible life-threatening illness), so he possibly wants to leave this mortal coil with a huge bang and should there be any survivors, he will always be remembered !

That makes two countries stocking Russian missiles?

What does the West have deployed in Europe this year. Let's see...
U.S. tactical nuclear weapons remain at six bases in five NATO member countries, Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, and Turkey. The UK and France have their own nuclear forces and no longer host U.S. weapons.

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/nuclear-we ... eployments

Go on, remind me - which countries have a history of using these things so far against civilian populations? Russia? No, can't find anyone claiming that.

So. Just America then?

America, like Russia, refuses to recognize the International Criminal Court. With good reason.

Here you are Gill - this is my most recent small contribution to world peace: https://commonpeople.uk/index.php?title=Defence - specifically Paragraph 4.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

To answer Gill's more general question "I wonder what Pootin has in mind", a "Concept of the Foreign Policy of the Russian Federation" was published yesterday: "APPROVED by Decree of the President of the Russian Federation No. 229, March 31, 2023" - it's published in various languages including English at https://mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/fundam ... s/1860586/

Paragraph 8, if I may be allowed to quote it here in full:
The changes which are now taking place and which are generally favourable are nonetheless not welcomed by a number of states being used to the logic of global dominance and neocolonialism. These countries refuse to recognize the realities of a multipolar world and to agree on the parameters and principles of the world order accordingly. Attempts are made to restrain the natural course of history, to eliminate competitors in the politico-military and economic spheres, and to suppress dissent. A wide range of illegal instruments and methods is being used, including the introduction of coercive measures (sanctions) in circumvention of the UN Security Council, provocation of coups d'état and military conflicts, threats, blackmailing, manipulation of the consciousness of certain social groups and entire nations, offensive and subversive actions in the information space. A wide-spread form of interference in the internal affairs of sovereign states has become the imposition of destructive neoliberal ideological attitudes that run counter to traditional spiritual and moral values. As a result, the destructive effect extends to all spheres of international relations.


I'd have felt quite pleased if I'd managed to write that myself, it's a pretty good summary of the last decade. And if anyone erects a memorial to PNAC and Tony Blair, I hope they carve "destructive neoliberal ideological attitudes that run counter to traditional spiritual and moral values" in very large letters near the top.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by LarsMac »

While I don't disagree with a lot of that, I am concerned that it comes from Putin.
It's a common rhetorical slant for those who would be King.
I could imagine Trump, or a number of other potential depots emitting such blather to justify their complete disregard for the rule of law.

It ain't right, no matter who is saying it, but Ol' Vlad has the missiles to back it up.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

I offer this ChatGPT conversation to the thread. GPT4 has currently no knowledge of any event beyond September 2021, I think it makes a fair fist of things. It definitely steers an impartial path.


Me: You are a strategic advisor to the government of Ukraine. A year ago, Ukraine was invaded by Russian forces who immediately occupied the eastern provinces of Ukraine totaling 17% of the country's area. Since then, Ukrainian forces have held all Russian attacks in check. Russian casualties are estimated at 250,000 dead and injured, Ukrainian losses at 90,000. Summarize all reasonable outcomes that could be interpreted as a victory for Ukraine.

GPT: As a strategic advisor to the government of Ukraine, I would consider the following scenarios as potential victories for Ukraine:

Diplomatic Resolution: Ukraine and Russia reach a diplomatic agreement, possibly through international mediation, which leads to Russia's withdrawal from the occupied territories. The agreement could involve security guarantees, autonomy for certain regions, and a commitment to political dialogue, resulting in the restoration of Ukraine's territorial integrity.

Military Stalemate: The ongoing military stalemate eventually forces Russia to reconsider its position. Faced with mounting casualties and international pressure, Russia may withdraw its forces from the occupied territories and agree to negotiate a peace settlement with Ukraine. This outcome would require sustained Ukrainian military resistance and continued support from international partners.

Incremental Territorial Recovery: Ukrainian forces gradually push back Russian troops and regain control of key areas in the occupied territories. This may involve a combination of military pressure, sabotage operations, and local uprisings against Russian forces. While this scenario would not result in the immediate withdrawal of Russian forces, it could create favorable conditions for negotiations and a long-term resolution.

International Intervention: A coalition of international forces intervenes to support Ukraine, forcing Russia to withdraw from the occupied territories. This scenario could involve military assistance, logistical support, or even direct intervention from NATO or other regional powers. However, this option carries significant risks and would require strong international consensus.

Economic and Political Pressure: Continued economic sanctions, diplomatic isolation, and political pressure from the international community eventually force Russia to reconsider its actions and withdraw from the occupied territories. This scenario would require sustained international support and coordinated efforts to impose economic costs on Russia.

Popular Unrest in Russia: Growing discontent among the Russian public, fueled by the human and economic costs of the war, leads to widespread protests and unrest. Under internal pressure, the Russian government decides to withdraw its forces from Ukraine and seek a negotiated settlement.

Each of these scenarios carries its own risks and uncertainties, and achieving a victory for Ukraine would require a combination of diplomatic, military, and economic efforts.

Me: What might qualify as a credible security guarantee?

GPT: A credible security guarantee is a commitment by one or more countries to protect another country's sovereignty, territorial integrity, or political independence against external threats. To be considered credible, a security guarantee must have the following characteristics:

Clear and unambiguous commitments: The guarantee should outline specific obligations, conditions, and expectations for all parties involved. This can include military support, intelligence sharing, and political backing in the event of an external threat.

Strong legal basis: A security guarantee should be formalized through binding treaties, agreements, or legal frameworks, which solidify the commitments made by the parties involved.

Demonstrated capacity and willingness to act: The countries providing the security guarantee should have the military, economic, and political resources necessary to uphold their commitments. Additionally, they should have a track record of honoring their obligations in similar situations.

Broad international support: A credible security guarantee is more likely to deter potential aggressors if it is backed by a coalition of countries or supported by influential international organizations such as the United Nations or NATO.

Regular communication and cooperation: Ongoing dialogue, joint exercises, and cooperative initiatives among the countries involved can help build trust, enhance interoperability, and demonstrate a collective commitment to upholding the security guarantee.

In the context of Ukraine, a credible security guarantee could involve one or more of the following elements:
  • A mutual defense pact with NATO or individual NATO member states, formalizing their commitment to Ukraine's defense against external aggression.
  • Enhanced partnerships and military cooperation with regional powers such as the European Union or individual European countries.
  • A United Nations Security Council resolution endorsing the security guarantee and authorizing collective action in case of aggression against Ukraine.
  • A long-term commitment to providing military, economic, and political support to Ukraine, including military assistance, training, and intelligence sharing.
  • Regular joint military exercises and security consultations between Ukraine and its security partners, demonstrating their commitment to mutual defense.
A credible security guarantee would require sustained commitment and effort from both Ukraine and its partners to deter potential aggressors and ensure the country's long-term security and stability.

Me: Discuss the probable Russian response to any such security guarantee being made by any third party nation.

GPT: If a third-party nation or coalition provides a security guarantee to Ukraine, the Russian response will depend on the specific circumstances and the nature of the guarantee. However, some probable Russian reactions include:

Diplomatic protests and opposition: Russia may vehemently oppose any security guarantee for Ukraine and argue that it infringes on its sphere of influence, threatens its national security, or violates existing agreements. This opposition could take the form of diplomatic protests, public statements, and efforts to block or undermine the guarantee in international forums.

Military posturing and escalation: In response to a perceived security threat, Russia may increase its military presence along its borders with Ukraine or in occupied territories, engage in military exercises or provocations, or even escalate the conflict in order to test the resolve and credibility of the security guarantee.

Intensification of hybrid warfare: Russia might resort to covert tactics, such as cyberattacks, disinformation campaigns, or support for separatist movements within Ukraine, to destabilize the country and undermine the effectiveness of the security guarantee without directly provoking a military confrontation.

Strengthening alliances and partnerships: Russia could seek to counterbalance the security guarantee by bolstering its own alliances and partnerships, such as strengthening ties with China, Belarus, or other regional actors. This may involve increased military cooperation, economic assistance, or diplomatic support.

Engaging in negotiations: If Russia perceives that the security guarantee has significantly shifted the balance of power or increased the costs of continuing the conflict, it might be more inclined to engage in negotiations or seek a diplomatic resolution. However, this would likely come with demands and conditions that serve Russia's interests.

Exploiting divisions among third-party nations: Russia may attempt to exploit differences among the nations providing the security guarantee, using diplomatic pressure, economic incentives, or other means to weaken the cohesion and effectiveness of the guarantee.

It is important to note that Russia's response to a security guarantee for Ukraine would likely involve a combination of these actions and be influenced by various factors, such as the specific details of the guarantee, the level of international support, and the perceived willingness of the guaranteeing nations to follow through on their commitments.

Me: Please quote the most recent occasion in your knowledge base when any Kremlin source spoke positively about either Perestroika or Glasnost.

GPT: As my knowledge base extends up until September 2021, the most recent occasion in which a Kremlin source spoke positively about either Perestroika or Glasnost is not immediately available. Perestroika (restructuring) and Glasnost (openness) were policies introduced by Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev in the mid-1980s to reform the Soviet Union's political and economic systems.

It is important to note that the current Russian government, under President Vladimir Putin, has a complex relationship with the Gorbachev era and its policies. While some figures may acknowledge the positive intentions behind Perestroika and Glasnost, the general sentiment among the Russian leadership is that these policies contributed to the dissolution of the Soviet Union and a period of political and economic turmoil in Russia during the 1990s.

As a result, contemporary Kremlin sources may not often speak positively about Perestroika or Glasnost in public statements, given the perceived association with the Soviet Union's collapse and the subsequent difficulties faced by Russia.

Me: I recognize the essential truth of those observations but I would still be interested in you finding such a quote.

GPT: My apologies for not providing a specific quote earlier. While it's challenging to find a recent instance of a Kremlin source speaking positively about Perestroika or Glasnost, one relatively recent example is from an interview with then-Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev in 2011. Medvedev was discussing the importance of political competition and modernization in Russia. In this context, he mentioned Gorbachev's reform policies:

"In the middle of the 1980s, Mikhail Gorbachev launched his policies of Glasnost and Perestroika, and many people's lives changed dramatically as a result. Those changes would not have been possible if the country's leadership had not sought to modernize the political and economic system."

While this statement does not directly praise Perestroika or Glasnost, it acknowledges the impact they had on people's lives and the intentions of the Soviet leadership to modernize the political and economic systems. It is important to note that Medvedev's views may not necessarily reflect the broader sentiment within the Kremlin or the current Russian government, especially considering the time that has passed since this statement was made.

Me: Thank you for the discussion, your views have been interesting.

GPT: You're welcome! I'm glad you found the discussion interesting. If you have any more questions or would like to discuss further topics, please feel free to ask. I'm here to help!
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

spot wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:49 am Incremental Territorial Recovery: Ukrainian forces gradually push back Russian troops and regain control of key areas in the occupied territories. This may involve a combination of military pressure, sabotage operations, and local uprisings against Russian forces. While this scenario would not result in the immediate withdrawal of Russian forces, it could create favorable conditions for negotiations and a long-term resolution.


This, presumably, is what is currently under way in Eastern Ukraine at the moment.

We'll come back to the result in a few months presumably. I wonder though, whether anyone here actually thinks the current front line is going to shift materially between now and then. Or are we in the Somme / Passchendaele territory this year - is this a battlefront that is simply immovable. And if it is, why on earth are the Ukrainians attacking an obviously in-depth well-constructed defensive line?

What was learned about attacking a line, back a hundred years ago, is that if you manage to penetrate it you become surrounded on three sides and the only way out is back where you came from. The attack, the being surrounded and the trying to withdraw are all shockingly expensive in the lives of the attackers. Go and ask Douglas Haig, not that it bothered him much at the time.


Commenting on the events around Mala Tokmachka in an update in his Substack account, Phillips P O’Brien, professor of strategic studies at the University of St Andrews, suggested that such losses were to be expected because of the nature of the fighting.

“It’s clear that this operation will take a while. Ukraine is trying to do something that has not been successfully accomplished (perhaps ever) before. They are trying to execute a wide-scale offensive with the use of armoured vehicles without air supremacy against an entrenched enemy that possesses a large supply of defensive weaponry.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... challenges
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

I've only just woken up so excuse me if I sound confused, but is a military coup in progress in Russia?

"Russia-Ukraine war live: Putin says those behind ‘armed rebellion’ will be punished; Wagner chief says he’s in Rostov military HQ "
Yevgeny Prigozhin says in a new video message that all military sites in the Russian city of Rostov-on-Don are under the Wagner mercenary group’s control, Reuters is reporting.

The Wagner chief also says in the video, which was posted to Telegram, that he and his men are in the southern district military headquarters in Rostov-on-Don.

Prigozhin says that does not impede Russia’s conduct of what it calls a “special military operation” in Ukraine.

The Guardian has not been able to verify his claims.

Updated at 06.19 BST
8m ago
08.08 BST

Putin says in his address to the nation that as Russian president and commander in chief “I will do everything possible to defend my country”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... be-stopped

I can't imagine Mr Prigozhin surviving as far as August then. What an extraordinary piece of nonsense. I can only assume he's at least tried to talk other official military commanders into agreeing to join in after a few days. He's definitely got himself into the history books though. Military units have been deployed across Moscow for the first time in thirty years, and the Northbound motorway from Rostov-on-Don is blocked. The traditional response to this sort of thing in Russia would be to liquidate that Wagner Group and its entire force complement in the shortest time possible, preferably by firing squad - I can't see any good reason not to.

We used to have a military outfit like the Wagner Group in England back around 870CE. We called them the Vikings.

This might even be the first attempted coup in over half a century which hasn't involved American Intelligence.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

spot wrote: Sat Jun 24, 2023 12:20 am I've only just woken up so excuse me if I sound confused, but is a military coup in progress in Russia?

All over - I've just woken up again, I expect you can tell. Nothing to see here, temporary blip, nobody got shot. Unless the report of a helicopter being blown out of the sky part-way up the motorway turns out to be true.

Even so, it's no way to run a country. That was a day more like Chile or Tunisia than a European Power. Bad form Mr Putin, get a grip or retire. You're past 70, you have no business to be running a major nation at your age.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

I wonder. Have we now seen enough of 2023 to be fully convinced that it's a replay of 1915 in terms of who gained which half mile and who lost another10,000 enlisted foot-soldiers?

We have seen this Western divide-and-rule strategy time and again. This is Iran-Iraq being replayed, this is the CIA gun-running surface-to-air missiles to the Mujaheddin in 1980s Afghanistan again. The longer this war can be spun out, the more damage both sides will inflict on each other. The one guarantee is that neither will emerge facing a safer future or a better established mutual border, regardless of where it is sited. This war is not in the interest of Ukraine and it is not in the interest of Russia, but both are better off fighting it than accepting what will result when it finishes. It is a Western-generated conflict, it is a Western-maintained conflict and I'm sure it will be prolonged by Western intervention for as long as it possibly can. What you need to ask is whether those Western strategists actually liked or approved of their proteges the Mujaheddin, or their Westernizing allies the secular Republic of Iraq, or whether they thought of them as useful tools for their geopolitical objectives.

Or is anyone sat there thinking the war in Ukraine might come to an end in the foreseeable future and, if so, how?
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

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It was by no means clear until today whether damage to the Finland - Estonia gas and broadband link was deliberate. Today's news makes it clear that it was:

A telecommunication cable connecting Sweden and Estonia has been damaged, Sweden’s civil defence minister has said.

Carl-Oskar Bohlin said the incident appeared to have occurred at the same time as a subsea gas pipeline and a telecom cable connecting Finland and Estonia were damaged on 8 October.

Helsinki has said it cannot exclude the possibility that a “state actor” was behind that damage

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... esident-xi

Someone appears to have given Estonia early warning it has crossed a line. Mere mortal reeders of newspapers don't get told enough to know what it might have been. There are 7 undersea cables connecting Estonia, with 2 mainland stations. https://www.submarinecablemap.com/ is helpful, worldwide and up to date.

I suspect it's easier to mend an underwater fiber cable than to break it anonymously in the first place, but I could be mistaken. One can easily become embarrassed if a team gets arrested on the job and shows up in a courthouse - the newspapers can then report what language the team speaks, if nothing else.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

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For those who may have forgotten, this is President Biden reported on February 7th 2022, directly threatening to terminate Nord Stream 2 following a Russian invasion of Ukraine. Do please say if you think I'm twisting his words.
Biden said should there be a Russian invasion, which he defined as “tanks or troops crossing the border” with Ukraine, “there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2, we will bring an end to it.”

Asked whether Scholz to committed to ending operations, Biden said: “I promise you we will be able to do it.”

“We have intensively prepare everything to be ready with the necessary sanction if there is a military aggression against Ukraine,” Scholz said.

In English, the German chancellor said: “We will be united. We will act together, and we will take all the necessary steps.”

Pressed on their ambiguity, Biden insisted that Germany was a “reliable partner” and Scholz insisted that the US and Germany were “united.”

“The notion that Nord Stream 2 would go forward with an invasion by the Russians is just not going to happen,” Biden said.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/liv ... epublicans


On 26 September 2022, Danish and Swedish authorities reported a number of explosions at pipes A and B of the Nord Stream 1 pipeline and pipe A of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, with the resulting damage causing significant gas leaks. The European Union considers the incident to be sabotage of key European energy infrastructure.[6] The Nord Stream explosions also resulted in the worst release of methane gas in human history, with estimates ranging from 100,000 to 400,000 tons of methane released into the atmosphere. In October 2022, Russia confirmed that Pipe B of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline escaped destruction, and offered to resume gas supply to Europe (which was promptly declined by Berlin).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2
(Pipe B had never been operational, unlike Pipe A).
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

The weather in Ukraine has got sufficiently cold that the fighting has switched to winter mode, which last year involved staying in place and waiting for Easter. Whether it stops movement this winter is still to be seen but I'd have thought that likely.
The highly anticipated counteroffensive, powered by tens of billions of dollars in Western military aid, including heavy weaponry, did not forge the expected breakthroughs. Now, some Ukrainian officials worry whether further assistance will be as generous.

At the same time, ammunition stockpiles are running low, threatening to bring Ukrainian battlefield operations to a standstill.

With winter set to cloak a wartime Ukraine once again, military leaders must contend with new but familiar challenges as the conflict grinds toward the end of its second full year: There are freezing temperatures and barren fields that leave soldiers exposed. And there’s the renewed threat of widespread Russian aerial assaults in cities that target energy infrastructure and civilians.


https://apnews.com/article/zelenskyy-uk ... 459e6ab64b

A year ago there was a great deal of optimism in the Western press. I don't see it still being written up that way.

If anyone out there still thinks Ukraine is going to win this fight, perhaps they could again explain what a win would consist of. And if the Ukraine isn't going to win, what possible endgame are they aiming for other than spinning things out for as long as they can manage - which is not a good place to end up, when it arrives.

SKOPJE, North Macedonia (AP) — Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said Friday his government was not prepared to “review its goals” in Ukraine — delivering a blunt and confrontational message to Western leaders on a rare trip to a NATO member state.

“We aren’t seeing any signals from Kyiv or its masters about their readiness to seek any kind of political settlement,” Lavrov told reporters while attending a security conference in North Macedonia.

“We see no reason to review our goals,” he said.

North Macedonia, which joined NATO in 2020, waived a flight ban on Russian officials so that Lavrov could attend the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, prompting the foreign ministers of Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to skip the meeting in protest.

https://apnews.com/article/lavrov-osce- ... 50bb6a4afa
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

I note people keep getting killed in Ukraine. Including North Korean lend-lease troops now. It's time the combatants reached terms and settled their difference. Both parties risk negative consequences if they continue indefinitely.

I seem to recall President Trump saying he'd sort it out. Presumably he's sending messages by now.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

spot wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 8:25 am It's time the combatants reached terms and settled their difference. Both parties risk negative consequences if they continue indefinitely.

I seem to recall President Trump saying he'd sort it out. Presumably he's sending messages by now.

Donald Trump announced his plans to end the war in Ukraine, after a lengthy phone call with Russian president Vladimir Putin in which the pair agreed to start the talks “immediately,” and invited each other to their countries (18:18). His comments prompted European leaders to call for Ukrainian interests to be protected (18:43, 19:00, 19:04), while Ukraine’s president Zelenskyy said diplomatically that “no one wants peace more than Ukraine” (19:09). The development comes just hours after US defence secretary Pete Hegseth told European leaders that the US was no longer “primarily focused” on European security, he said returning to pre-2014 Ukraine borders was “unrealistic,” and ruled out a NATO membership for Kyiv (15:07)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... op-of-blog

I can find nothing exceptionable about any of that. Had President Biden done exactly the same three years ago it would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. The difference is that President Biden was acting in the interest of Pentagon planners weakening everyone outside the Homeland while today's move has nothing whatever to do with the Pentagon. Let me quote myself in this thread from ten days short of three years ago:

spot wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:53 am We have a position today where either of the Presidents could have stopped the Russian attack on Ukraine with the stroke of a pen.

President Putin could have called it off and didn't.

President Biden could have guaranteed that Ukraine would be refused admission to NATO and he didn't.

The invasion provides the guarantee President Putin wanted. President Biden gets what he wanted too, a bogeyman to point at for the rest of his term and name an Enemy of America.

The people squashed in the centre, Ukrainians, didn't get much of a say in things. Neither did the Afghans or the Iraqis if it comes to that. The major powers call the shots.

While it may not be a popular sentiment I'd also note that the chap running Belorussia all these years had more bloody sense than to get his country invaded by the Russians. If that took a measure of domestic repression then more power to his elbow.

Let me quote President Trump earlier today. The difference between thinking what he says here is accurate, or is Trumpian bullshit - or of course both at the same time - exists only in the mind of whoever reeds it.
I just spoke to President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine. The conversation went very well. He, like President Putin, wants to make PEACE.

We discussed a variety of topics having to do with the War, but mostly, the meeting that is being set up on Friday in Munich, where Vice President JD Vance and Secretary of State Marco Rubio will lead the Delegation. I am hopeful that the results of that meeting will be positive.

It is time to stop this ridiculous War, where there has been massive, and totally unnecessary, DEATH and DESTRUCTION. God bless the people of Russia and Ukraine!

What Trump fails to say is that his left hand is gripped tight round Zelenskyy's scrotum and all the world knows his other hand is holding a recently acquired Bull Cutter Knife.

For is it not written: "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented." - I sound more like TruthBringer as each year passes. My quote is in the context of NATO's forward bases if anyone wonders. If President Trump has a spare hour for another Executive Order he should add one more official motto to the United States, "Vive et tolera", best translated as the extremely ambiguous bidirectional "suck it up".
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

As matters unfold perhaps we could re-establish some fundamentals.

1. If anyone feels Western Democracy is unsuited to the USA let them say so.

2. Or that by any measure, President Trump is legitimately in office with majorities in both the Electoral College and the electorate itself.

3. And that nobody other than Americans voted in the Presidential Election.

4. And that given all President Trump said about what he'd do in office, nobody's been taken by surprise with how things are unfolding?

How did you score. Add them up, there's candy for anyone over 50%.

So. Look me in the eye. I'm not American, I wasn't offered a vote, I didn't vote, it's not my fault.

Anyone unhappy at what Trump's doing? Hands up?

Thought so. It's still not my fault.

He's declared, prior to a succession of meetings, that:

1. Ukraine isn't going to get its occupied territory back.

2. Ukraine isn't going to get NATO membership before Russia does.

3. Ukraine is going to get no American financial or military support from now on unless it gives access to its mineral deposits and infrastructure rebuilding to US contractors.

4. As of now there's a ceasefire and nobody moves. I'm not sure about that one but I think I heard it on the radio.

And at some stage there will be at least three rounds of negotiation, mano a mano, with himself and President Putin, after which they'll announce who's doing what. And Ukraine isn't allotted a seat, Europe isn't allotted a seat, and any observers had better stay quiet or they'll be sent home. That might get into April, though I doubt it.

And 5? 5 is that Ukraine then agrees and does what it's told.

If anyone can think of any potential better outcome that could have been achieved had Kamala Harris won the election, please click reply. Do remember to include a rough estimate of future body counts in your answer.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

We may have to wait for one of those meetings before all engagements in Ukraine and Kursk come to a standstill - the "As of now there's a ceasefire and nobody moves" bit may have come from a mis-heard sentence on the six o'clock news last night. Or more likely an unsubstantiated claim by an interviewee to which I failed to hear any subsequent qualification by the news team. At the moment there's no news report either for or against the idea that a freeze is starting. I'll post any indications when they exist.

As for President Trump's initiative:

Russia has indicated it wants him to go further. In a communique, the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, said he wanted the deal to address the “origins of the conflict”, which he has previously said include Ukraine’s pro-western stance and the Nato expansions of the 2000s and 1990s.

He may seek to turn back the clock, said another European official, and demand that US forces stationed in the Baltics, Poland and other former communist countries return, raising concerns about further Russian land grabs without American troops there to guarantee their defense.

Such an outcome seemed even more possible on Thursday, when Trump’s defence secretary, Pete Hegseth, told his Nato counterparts that a reduction of US troop levels in Europe could be part of any deal.

In effect, Trump is negotiating with Europe, not Russia. Europe has issued its counteroffer: treat us as a partner and give us a seat at the table.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... ine-russia

I have yet to see anything I disagree with, or disapprove of, regarding the new administration's stance on Ukraine. An explanation of why the future might be worse, or where it could have got to without President Trump upsetting the status quo, would be very welcome - this thread is one of the better ones here but if has tended to be one-sided on occasion, though I've tried to remain factual and reasoned.

"Zelenskyy says Ukraine won't accept any peace deal made by Trump and Putin alone". Fair enough, that's his prerogative. I don't see that stopping the two-party talks from reaching their deal at all. If President Zelenskyy believes he can carry on without US finance, military intelligence and supplies then that's his route into the future, but he'll be at least four years from any NATO commitment in his favour if he takes that path. The further he holds out, the less Ukraine will have left when it folds. Four years is impossibly distant in those circumstances. He surely can't imagine he'll ever get a UN resolution authorizing European troops to fight on Ukrainian soil, or that Trump wouldn't veto one if such an unlikely event actually happened.

For anyone not paying attention, today is Presidents Day.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

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Von der Leyen now says that she wants to “step up our work to accelerate the accession process of Ukraine to the EU”, with “significant progress made already”.

She says the bloc needs to “move mountains” to adapt to the new reality and to “make good on Europe’s enduring promise of peace”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... urope-news

That's simple fantasizing. There is no link there with reality at all. What happened to alignment! Go back and read all the articles about endemic corruption, with no services at all short of a substantial bribe. Is Von der Leyen claiming that's been sorted? Can you get a phone provisioned in Ukraine without a bribe? A fibre link? Justice? Promotion? Here we are - the horse's mouth:

Scoring 180 countries around the world, the Corruption Perceptions Index is the leading global indicator of public sector corruption. Ukraine has a score of 35 this year, with a change of -1 since last year, meaning it ranks 105 out of 180 countries. Find out about key corruption issues in Ukraine in CPI 2024 for Eastern Europe & Central Asia: Vicious cycle of weak democracy and flourishing corruption".

https://www.transparency.org/en/countries/ukraine
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

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Europe will be consulted – but ultimately excluded – from the planned peace talks between Russia, the US and Ukraine, Donald Trump’s special envoy for Ukraine has revealed.

Asked if Europe would be present at the planned talks, Keith Kellogg said he was from “the school of realism, and that is not going to happen”.

“It may be like chalk on the blackboard, it may grate a little bit, but I am telling you something that is really quite honest,” he said on Saturday.

“And to my European friends, I would say: get into the debate, not by complaining that you might, yes or no, be at the table, but by coming up with concrete proposals, ideas, ramp up [defence] spending.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/ ... ne-kellogg

One wonders why any European leader would think their representatives would be included in the negotiations, when it's blatantly clear they'd slow the process down and stop it if they could?
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

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spot wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2025 12:05 pmOne wonders why any European leader would think their representatives would be included in the negotiations, when it's blatantly clear they'd slow the process down and stop it if they could?

And indeed, so it is now declared to be the case:
Kyiv has not been invited to talks between the US and Russia aimed at ending the war in Ukraine, a senior Ukrainian government source has told the BBC.

The US special envoy to Ukraine Keith Kellogg had said Kyiv would be involved in this week's talks in Saudi Arabia, but the source said no delegation would be present.

European leaders have also not been asked to join the discussions, and are due to meet instead on Monday in Paris at a summit hastily arranged by the French president, as fears grow the continent is being locked out of negotiations.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm292319gr2o


Elsewhere,
Sir Keir Starmer has said he is "ready and willing" to put UK troops on the ground in Ukraine to help guarantee its security as part of a peace deal.

The UK prime minister said securing a lasting peace in Ukraine was "essential if we are to deter Putin from further aggression in the future".

Before attending an emergency summit with European leaders in Paris on Monday, Sir Keir said the UK was prepared to contribute to security guarantees to Ukraine by "putting our own troops on the ground if necessary".

"I do not say that lightly," he wrote in the Daily Telegraph, external. "I feel very deeply the responsibility that comes with potentially putting British servicemen and women in harm's way."

The prime minister added: "But any role in helping to guarantee Ukraine's security is helping to guarantee the security of our continent, and the security of this country."

The end of Russia's war with Ukraine "when it comes, cannot merely become a temporary pause before Putin attacks again", Sir Keir said.

UK troops could be deployed alongside soldiers from other European nations alongside the border between Ukrainian-held and Russian-held territory.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gxgxl3grgo

If our Prime Minister presses ahead with that rather extreme position without a NATO fig-leaf then I suggest he consider his position, the idea is neither rational nor in the interest of the nation. One can only hope it's meaningless hot air. It has even less justification than Churchill's ill-advised intervention in the Russian Civil War:
Churchill, the loudest voice in favour of action, was a vehement anti-socialist and saw Bolshevism as socialism's worst form. As a result, he attempted to gain Allied support for intervention on ideological grounds. Most of the British press were ideologically hostile to the Bolshevik regime, and supported the intervention. Many newspapers actively encouraged Allied intervention during the war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_in ... _Civil_War

The folly of our voluntary commitments took us into World War 1, the folly of our voluntary commitments took us into World War 2, and the folly of our potential voluntary commitments to Ukraine may be equally appalling. All three positions were and are harmful to the country and even more so to the world at large.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

The reason the US can negotiate directly with Russia is that the Ukraine's ability to continue the war is entirely dependent on the continued supply of US assistance to Ukraine, and Trump is clearly capable of withdrawing all of that if Ukraine refuses to follow any US diktat (A harsh, unilaterally imposed settlement with a defeated party; an authoritative or dogmatic statement or decree). Given such dependence, allowing EU or UK participation simply slows and confuses the outcome.

The reason the EU and UK can't unilaterally and indefinitely support Ukraine in the absence of US approval is that Trump is equally capable of withdrawing a minimum of full four years' worth of assistance from them too if they interfere. The iconic lines from Dirty Harry spring to mind.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by LarsMac »

I suspect that after they have finished with Ukraine, and it is safely tucked away, Vlad will be looking over the menu for other former Soviets to invite back in to the fold.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

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LarsMac wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2025 5:04 pm I suspect that after they have finished with Ukraine, and it is safely tucked away, Vlad will be looking over the menu for other former Soviets to invite back in to the fold.
It's not impossible, it comes down to motive really. I'm not sure the future is entirely predictable either - I've never found it to be so, I'm continually surprised by what pops into existence. Whether one should hope for that unpredictability to continue or not is a different matter, of course, but it's not really in anyone's gift.

But in terms of motivation, I still feel Russia is reacting against NATO pressure - the investment in forward bases that an attacking army corps can occupy within days, fully tooled up, rather than the old-fashioned war game where it takes weeks of visible preparation before borders can be crossed. That level of preparedness pressed against a country's border is the one threat the agreements at the end of World War Two were explicitly designed to address, agreed by both sides as a means of threat reduction, and to my mind NATO has chipped away at it foolishly. It raised the temperature with no benefit unless the forward bases were intended to be used. I note that they have no defensive value whatever - if Russia were to be the aggressor then those forward bases would be overrun and captured before they could be manned. That tells me they were not placed there to be defensive.

I may be wrong about the strategic value of all those forward bases, but not about their sole value being aggressive. They resemble the early US forts deliberately planted at the borders of settler habitation. It could be that firing a battlefield warhead at each of them before anyone could move out is the only counter-move once a threshold is passed, which is the most likely trigger to a broader intercontinental exchange. The fort mentality is a serious failure of risk management.

The length of the border between Ukraine and Russia is so long, and so clearly hard to defend, that if Russia views forward NATO bases there as an existential threat I can't see why anyone would regard that as unreasonable. The border with Finland or Poland, by contrast, is relatively narrow and defence there can be focused.

From any rational perspective, Ukraine made a balls-up flirting with the West. I'm not sure how the situation can be stabilized in the long term other than by treaty. But in the short term Ukraine cannot under any circumstances have EU membership rushed through or a NATO umbrella thrown over it or Western troops stationed there.

We clearly disagree, but we might perhaps accept the other person has a point. Yours is self-determination which also has its justification, and a mistrust of Russia into which you were born and raised. America's exceptionalist need for an external enemy is an ugly aspect of its makeup and I think it's undeniable. Russia's present condition is a distressing consequence. It may even be that Russia has fallen in such disrepair that it has lost its sense of purpose but even if it has, the Russian population won't just evaporate. What do you want? National regeneration or collapse? The first nations in America, if you remember, collapsed and you'll never see them again, they're dead and gone.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

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Europe could, according to speculative discussion, hand Ukraine the whole of the $200bn of Russian assets it froze as part of current sanctions instead of the current arrangement allocating just the interest from that stash. This would make up for any US withdrawal of financial support.

Such an arrangement doesn't address the imbalance in attrition the war exacts. Even if Russian forces are being depleted at twice the rate of Ukrainian losses by a factor of 2 - which would seem improbably high - the proportionate loss of men of fighting age in Ukraine would still be double that of those in Russia. If the war is not stopped, no amount of ready cash is going to prevent Ukraine from being overrun short of western military intervention. What benefit is more time going to give to the Ukrainian leadership? The outside chance of a change of Government in Russia to one prepared to walk away from their gains to date? Is that a serious possibility? Or does anyone believe there will be European combat troops added to the fighting forces on the ground (or in the air) in Ukraine in the same way North Koreans were engaged? Neither of these are realistic futures.

Regardless of how Ukraine got itself into its present position, it is going to be presented with a choice to cash in or fight on. The price of cashing in will be abandoning any future claim to the occupied Eastern territory, and guaranteeing to permanently abandon its EU and NATO ambitions. Attributing blame makes no difference at all to this assessment.

For reference, the number of men of working age (18-65) in each country is around 11m vs 44m. It makes little difference what proportion are fit for the front line, the ratio is stark.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by Bryn Mawr »

LarsMac wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2025 5:04 pm I suspect that after they have finished with Ukraine, and it is safely tucked away, Vlad will be looking over the menu for other former Soviets to invite back in to the fold.
One of his generals let's slip the proposed schedule, starting with Moldova then rolling through the Baltics
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

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Regardless of how Ukraine got itself into its present position, it is going to be presented with a choice to cash in or fight on. The price of cashing in will be abandoning any future claim to the occupied Eastern territory, and guaranteeing to permanently abandon its EU and NATO ambitions. Attributing blame makes no difference at all to this assessment.
So you're suggesting that they just give up almost the entirety of their mineral and industrial heartland and the majority of their Black Sea ports to be left with only their agricultural land and no route to get their exports to market?
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

Bryn Mawr wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2025 8:05 am
Regardless of how Ukraine got itself into its present position, it is going to be presented with a choice to cash in or fight on. The price of cashing in will be abandoning any future claim to the occupied Eastern territory, and guaranteeing to permanently abandon its EU and NATO ambitions. Attributing blame makes no difference at all to this assessment.
So you're suggesting that they just give up almost the entirety of their mineral and industrial heartland and the majority of their Black Sea ports to be left with only their agricultural land and no route to get their exports to market?

From where they stand at the moment? They should breathe a sigh of relief if they get off that lightly, it leaves them Odessa. If it were me redrawing the map I'd insist on a straight line of barbed wire from Belgorod to the M15 bridge over the Dniester.

Any government is obliged to consider the opinion of its neighbours if it's to avoid this sort of consequence. The whole point of the Nuremberg Trials was to outlaw wars of aggression and bring malefactors to justice. What is missing is an international will to make that happen. Until it does, being so cavalier as Ukraine since its population took to the streets with their Orange Protest has been national suicide. Merely blaming the Russian Government for the outcome will butter no parsnips.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

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Speaking to reporters at his Mar-a-Lago residence, Trump was asked by BBC News what his message was to Ukrainians who might feel betrayed.

"I hear that they're upset about not having a seat, well, they've had a seat for three years and a long time before that. This could have been settled very easily," he said.

"You should have never started it. You could have made a deal," he later added.

"I could have made a deal for Ukraine," he said. "That would have given them almost all of the land, everything, almost all of the land - and no people would have killed, and no city would have been demolished."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd0n5e1pdz9o

Clearly that's not a popular message. Undeniably it's true. Putting off fixing the issue is why the 2022 invasion happened. Crimea was invariably going to become Russian again, as it had been for centuries, but the 2022 invasion was potentially avoidable. For Ukraine to say they'd invited talks five days before the invasion is irrelevant, they should have been doing that years before. Not less than a week.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2025 9:49 am
Bryn Mawr wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2025 8:05 am
Regardless of how Ukraine got itself into its present position, it is going to be presented with a choice to cash in or fight on. The price of cashing in will be abandoning any future claim to the occupied Eastern territory, and guaranteeing to permanently abandon its EU and NATO ambitions. Attributing blame makes no difference at all to this assessment.
So you're suggesting that they just give up almost the entirety of their mineral and industrial heartland and the majority of their Black Sea ports to be left with only their agricultural land and no route to get their exports to market?

From where they stand at the moment? They should breathe a sigh of relief if they get off that lightly, it leaves them Odessa. If it were me redrawing the map I'd insist on a straight line of barbed wire from Belgorod to the M15 bridge over the Dniester.

Any government is obliged to consider the opinion of its neighbours if it's to avoid this sort of consequence. The whole point of the Nuremberg Trials was to outlaw wars of aggression and bring malefactors to justice. What is missing is an international will to make that happen. Until it does, being so cavalier as Ukraine since its population took to the streets with their Orange Protest has been national suicide. Merely blaming the Russian Government for the outcome will butter no parsnips.
You do not start a war. Full stop. End of sentence. No exceptions, no excuses.

Neither do you reward a war criminal by gifting him the fruits of his war.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

Bryn Mawr wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 9:27 pm
spot wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2025 9:49 amAny government is obliged to consider the opinion of its neighbours if it's to avoid this sort of consequence. The whole point of the Nuremberg Trials was to outlaw wars of aggression and bring malefactors to justice. What is missing is an international will to make that happen. Until it does, being so cavalier as Ukraine since its population took to the streets with their Orange Protest has been national suicide. Merely blaming the Russian Government for the outcome will butter no parsnips.
You do not start a war. Full stop. End of sentence. No exceptions, no excuses.

Neither do you reward a war criminal by gifting him the fruits of his war.

I may, of course, be entirely mistaken in my view. I'm entirely prepared to concede the error of my ways, to revise my opinion in sackcloth and ashes and to atone. I acknowledge others hold different views and no doubt they can explain what it is that I've got wrong.

But you'll notice I did give at least a ghost of a reason, which is that Russia's opponents have since World War Two refused to adopt the laudable principles you've laid out. I'd be delighted if the World Order accepted the totality of "You do not start a war. Full stop. End of sentence. No exceptions, no excuses". Nothing would please me more than that we ought not "reward a war criminal by gifting him the fruits of his war".

And yet what I see is an asymmetry in this World Order you advocate. Where is the tribunal sentencing PNAC and that derisory giggler Bush who fronted the destruction of Iraq and Afghanistan? Can we perhaps acknowledge that what Russia has done to Ukraine is trivial compared to the complete destruction of Iraq, Afghanistan and most particularly Libya? And that Libya is in its present condition as much because of European planning as American? I don't actually need to go back to mentioning the consequence of America's foreign policy enforced by the Pentagon when considering Nicaragua, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. I'm even prepared to leave the history of murderous CIA-enabled juntas of South America or the current state of Korea on a back-burner.

Why are George Bush and his backers and Blair and Jack Straw not serving life sentences for their actions? And if they're immune, what justification do you have for criticizing President Putin for doing no worse? Why did Nuremberg bring charges of waging unjust war and hanging the guilty if that didn't set a precedent?

What I have written in this thread and the post you responded to was justification for my opinion, and that justification may be mistaken. Quite probably it is mistaken. I'm eager to modify my opinion though I note in passing that this site carries twenty years of evidence to back it. But I have yet to see any counter-argument. Just disagreement. I would very much welcome a discussion based on reasons. The simplistic notion that "Pootin is evil" is the best I've seen so far, advanced by Gill, but to be honest I've never found that sort of insubstantial abuse any different to all the other prejudiced slurs which echo throughout history.

Would you like to comment on the Archbishop of Canterbury in 1914 declaring "In this war we are fighting for the principles of justice and freedom against the doctrines of force", for instance? That might provide an impartial way forward. Because I would happily see his bones disinterred and hung in chains from London Bridge, and what he said is directly equivalent to Gill's accusation.

The psychological mechanisms at work are remarkably consistent: selective application of universal principles, motivated reasoning to justify "our" actions while condemning identical actions by "them," and the fundamental attribution error ignoring the lack of equivalence.

The Iraq War example is a perfectly good instance. The same Western powers that would now invoke international law against Russian aggression (by way of sanctions) sidestepped those principles when convenient. This selective application undermines the moral authority of the criticism, even when the criticism itself may be valid on objective grounds. If you abandon morality you're left with pragmatism. And in the absence of morality on both sides my pragmatic judgement condemns Ukraine. Yours apparently doesn't but I fail, so far, to see your reasoning.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

In the absence of any legal process which could influence the ongoing Ukraine/Russia war, I've found background to possible approaches which would condemn both the siting of forward NATO bases and the invasions of 2014 and 2022.

The Algiers Charter: http://permanentpeoplestribunal.org/wp- ... i-EN-2.pdf particularly the first seven articles: Right to Existence, and Right to Political Self-determination.

Based on that Charter, there is https://permanentpeoplestribunal.org/?lang=en - the Permanent Peoples' Tribunal.

Session 31. International Law and new wars (Rome, 14-16 December 2002) is available in Italian at http://permanentpeoplestribunal.org/31- ... 2/?lang=en - I might translate that if anyone asks.

Here's a summary (by Claude https://claude.ai):
The Permanent Peoples' Tribunal (TPP) document you've shared is highly relevant to your search for an independent body to evaluate claims of aggression in conflicts like Ukraine. This Rome session from 2002 specifically addressed "International Law and New Wars," examining how war had been rehabilitated as a policy tool in the post-Cold War era.
Several aspects of the TPP's analysis are particularly applicable to your concerns:
  1. The tribunal condemned the normalization of war as a solution to international problems
  2. It identified how "just war" doctrine had been repurposed to justify modern conflicts
  3. It specifically rejected "preventive defense" arguments that attempt to legitimize aggression
  4. It noted how war violations affect both international relations and domestic civil liberties
  5. It emphasized the contradiction between claims of defending human rights through methods that inherently violate them
The TPP represents exactly the kind of non-governmental moral authority you described - bringing together respected legal experts, academics and human rights advocates without governmental powers but with significant moral standing.
Supporting this existing framework would offer several advantages over creating a new institution. The TPP already has established protocols, international credibility, and diverse participation that helps it avoid appearing partisan to any particular bloc.
If you're interested in supporting their work on evaluating conflicts like Ukraine, you could contribute by:
  • Helping document violations through evidence collection
  • Supporting translation of proceedings and findings
  • Connecting journalists to their sessions
  • Amplifying their conclusions through various media channels
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

Let us accept the premise:
You do not start a war. Full stop. End of sentence. No exceptions, no excuses.

Neither do you reward a war criminal by gifting him the fruits of his war.

The first is a promise to the future, and we can assume all countries immediately accept it. No leader of any country will henceforth start a war.

The second relates to current ongoing war, and to past wars where the war criminals are still alive.

Looking at current wars, we might focus on the two major instances, Ukraine/Russia and Israel/Hamas. I think I got that second one right, correct me if I've mistaken the name or purpose of the conflict. To be honest I think it's inaccurate but what do I know, and I'm being uncontroversial by choice.

And, given the thread we're in, the focus comes down to Ukraine/Russia. And we can name the war criminal who started the war - President Putin. None of that is controversial. And we've discounted the possible defence of starting a war to fend off a clear and present danger because we're sticking to "You do not start a war. Full stop." which is good - it eliminates a grey area where a war can get going because of a perception, and it makes the leader of any country try all the alternatives rather than be a war criminal. Though I note we definitely have to prosecute every war criminal if we're going down this route, it can't be a meaningless threat, it has to be a guarantee.

At this point I believe my esteemed colleague and myself are in perfect agreement. If there's anything I've omitted as far as this paragraph I hope he'll correct me rather than letting it slide.

So, short of a political revolution across the whole planet of some sort, can we also agree there is no legal process which would prevent President Putin from completing his current term of office before being arrested and brought before a tribunal? He has a popularity rating in Russia exceeding 70% and I find that credible. He does not face a coup. He's unlikely to die in the next five years. So let's work on that basis as probable.

And let's assume that for as long as Ukraine continues to field its army, President Putin will continue to field his. And, I suggest, Russia is likely to take control of an additional 5% of Ukraine's area each year, because Russia's resources are not being depleted to the same extent, especially in recruitment. And this is what will happen if Ukraine refuses to accept the deal America is about to spring on the world, and continues to field its army. And we can postulate the deal too - I already did that earlier, and it's not going to be far off the mark, and we can even say it will be put forward on May Day - how's that: "abandoning any future claim to the occupied Eastern territory, and guaranteeing to permanently abandon its EU and NATO ambitions". Oh - and those mineral and reconstruction rights which Donald will throw in as plunder.

Go back and check we're still in perfect agreement, please. I can see no difference here between your position and mine.

What should President Zelensky do, come May Day? Sign off on the agreement or fight for the next five years, hoping things will get better? And what should Europe do if he doesn't?

If Ukraine rejects the deal, should Europe send troops into Ukraine to bolster Ukraine's military? No? Neither would I.

Should it send in £100m worth of hardware a year to keep "supplying the army with the tools of the trade"? Go on, why not, it's good for business. But it's not going to change the additional 5% of Ukraine's area each year going into Russia's control because, even if you keep stocking the army warehouses, the missing ingredient is the number of troops Ukraine can field.

You have - I hope - rejected moving European troops to the front line or its airspace. You have demanded that President Zelensky fight on for the next five years. How many people are dead by that stage? And has the end result improved or worsened for Ukraine? And we are still in perfect agreement as to the facts, I take it.

And this is the point where you have to make a moral judgement. And if you like we can agree President Putin is immediately taken into custody in 2030 and tried as a war criminal, and that Ukraine is granted the Eastern territories again in 2030 because gifting President Putin the fruits of his war has been barred. But in exchange we might also agree that's not going to happen before 2030. Are you seriously going to watch another couple of million casualties pile up, or are you going to recommend accepting this poisonous May Day deal?

If I may, I'll offer you an insight into how you can resolve the puzzle. I have never known a moment when the majority was right. But if you want to take that up it would have to be in a different thread.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

On Monday, in a joint appearance with France’s president Emmanuel Macron, the US president claimed that he had spoken with Vladimir Putin about the potential deployment of Nato peacekeeping forces in Ukraine, and the Russian president said he “has no problem with it.”

Last week Russia’s foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said that the deployment of Nato troops under another flag – “under the flag of the European Union or under national flags” he said – would be “unacceptable” to Russia. Peskov’s comments this morning appear to suggest, contrary to Trump’s assertion, remains the case.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... dates-live

I presume Russia would have no problem about brigade-strength South Korean units deployed in border regions as peacekeeping forces in Ukraine?
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 7:48 am
On Monday, in a joint appearance with France’s president Emmanuel Macron, the US president claimed that he had spoken with Vladimir Putin about the potential deployment of Nato peacekeeping forces in Ukraine, and the Russian president said he “has no problem with it.”

Last week Russia’s foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said that the deployment of Nato troops under another flag – “under the flag of the European Union or under national flags” he said – would be “unacceptable” to Russia. Peskov’s comments this morning appear to suggest, contrary to Trump’s assertion, remains the case.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... dates-live

I presume Russia would have no problem about brigade-strength South Korean units deployed in border regions as peacekeeping forces in Ukraine?
Chinese forces would make it more interesting :-)
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by LarsMac »

I watched the meeting of Zelenskyy with The Donald and his patsy Boy, JD, this afternoon.
I have NEVER felt so embarrassed to be an American in my life.

Trump was playing "The Apprentice" game with Mr Zelenskyy.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

LarsMac wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 9:08 pm I watched the meeting of Zelenskyy with The Donald and his patsy Boy, JD, this afternoon.
I have NEVER felt so embarrassed to be an American in my life.

Trump was playing "The Apprentice" game with Mr Zelenskyy.
You are, I hope, adequately warm and driving the nation's lesser-used roads.

The Oval Office thing led the news on my radio last night. They played an extended clip of the encounter. The populists did rather pile on, and in a very public space.

Zelenskyy was entirely correct that Ukraine had been invaded and that unless he negotiated he would refuse any "deal" on offer. So he should have done, it's the only position he can engage with.

The consequence is difficult to foresee, but the default is that Ukraine will fight on indefinitely with no support from America. They can do that if the European nations and the EU choose to continue to gift money and arms. But if America makes its tariff levels to Europe contingent on an end to fighting, that support might end this year too.

Other than the Man in the Oval Office having a half-hour primetime, it happened and it's gone and it's meaningless. Next week's episode will have the show host all smiles and dangling presents again. If President Zelenskyy were to say stuff like you're unreliable? That would be a dramatic cliff-hanger, but to the host all things are welcome so long as the show keeps its ratings.

Me? I asked for an isolationist administration. If it actually turns into one instead of being a game show I'll not be upset, but I'll not hold my breath.

Those despicable prats from PNAC in 2001 trivialized America. This new Neocon administration is doing the same. It takes a White House administration to have that much effect on the nation. It takes that much of an effect for the rest of the world to explore a more sensible path. It's education in action. I'm holding the edge of my chair hoping President Trump boosts his viewing figures by actually, genuinely, seceding from NATO instead of bloviating about it for a month or two.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by Betty Boop »

Bizarrely, this has appeared in my hometown overnight
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

That looks exactly like my sock. I'd better check I still have it.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

spot wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:15 amIt takes a White House administration to have that much effect on the nation. It takes that much of an effect for the rest of the world to explore a more sensible path. It's education in action.
What has seemed interesting after today's European reaction is that President Trump may in fact have reduced America from superpower status in the eyes of Europe at least. The EU is talking about taking the entire strain of supplying Ukraine themselves, leaving Ukraine free to ignore America entirely. It leaves Ukraine choosing to take huge casualties for years to come, but at least the country still gets to make its own sovereign choice. The best response to Trump is to ignore him. Eventually his period of office will expire and he'll go away.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

Australians, eh? Where would we be without them.
The Western Australian premier, Roger Cook, has called the US vice-president, JD Vance, a “knob”, wading into US politics at a pre-election event in Perth.

At the West Australian’s Leadership Matters event on Tuesday morning, at which Cook was the guest speaker, a journalist asked the premier to finish the sentence: “JD Vance is a …” Cook replied: “Knob.”

Cook then said: “You’ve got to have one unprofessional moment, don’t you? That was it.”

His description won him laughs and a round of applause from the audience.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... nce-a-knob
America last night froze a billion dollars of hardware in transit to Ukraine and blocked all military support until further notice.

The UK and France seem to have been pushed centre stage, probably because of those submarines and the force de frappe. We got rid of the lunatic fringe from Downing Street just in time by the look of it. The lettuce in charge? I know!

I note in passing the first tranche of 25% tariffs on Mexico and Canada, and the 20% rates on China, came into force last night too. And Musk's countdown on Starship 8 stopped at 30 seconds sadly.

That thing about nobody being able to trust the White House for the next four years, regardless of what future stunts the lads at the top get up to, seems about right. The award for the next superpower goes to... anyone but the US, really. Not because of the suit-fixated self-publicist screamer twins in the Oval Office so much as the Legion of the Republic who aren't ever going to go away. Project 2025. The Party is organized and they have everything now but the uniforms. That damnfool salute is simply going to spread.

I'm desperately anxious that President Trump appear in a military uniform weighed down with gold braid. On a podium. Saluting. Or any Trump children, come to that, especially those animal-hunting embarrassments. If there were any wild horses left in North America they'd be out shooting stallions for the trophy heads.
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Re: Ukraine and Russia

Post by spot »

It seems to me that the one seismic consequence of President Trump's first two months in office has been the lesson to NATO and Western Europe. America isn't dependable. Europe has to plan on the basis that America might walk away. America might actually be isolationist at whim. Europe has to be prepared to go it alone at any moment. And that's something which hasn't happened in eighty years, and the trust has been destroyed in just two months.
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