MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

koan
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MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by koan »

anastrophe wrote: i worded this rather badly, rendering it ambiguous. let me try again.



"the apologists for hussein assume that i was, and am, for this war.

they assume this because i don't overtly hate 'boy george'.



i was not, and am not, in favor of the iraq war.


People assume I think Hussein is an 'alright guy' because I am vehemently against the war. They also think they know my intentions and on occassion think they can write my unauthorised biography. What a strange world welcome to it.



I wrote you a note here, anastrophe. Hope you saw it. You are guilty of wrongful assumptions sometimes too.

just to point out: it would be easy to think that you are trashing and misinterpreting me on purpose as a last ditch attempt to discredit my arguments...but (I think) I know you wouldn't resort to that so I am assuming a misunderstanding instead.
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anastrophe
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MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by anastrophe »

spot wrote: I do seem to have conflated two streams of thought, and you're quite reasonably getting me to untangle them.



In terms of legislative changes, the one in particular that I had in mind isn't associated with a permanent destruction of democracy in the USA, but it does cut out a great deal of oversight by Congress. I had in mind the potentially draconian powers (by which I mean a monotonous litany of Death, Death, Death) of the Sunset Commission, and the fact that it was railroaded into existence in the Supplementary Budget Bill a month ago. H.Con.Res.95 refers, and I can't give you a URL for it, it's cgi/cookie related. http://thomas.loc.gov will find it easily.



SEC. 502. SENSE OF THE SENATE REGARDING A COMMISSION TO REVIEW THE PERFORMANCE OF PROGRAMS.



It is the sense of the Senate that a commission should be established to review Federal agencies, and programs within such agencies, including an assessment of programs on an accrual basis, and legislation to implement those recommendations, with the express purpose of providing Congress with recommendations, to realign or eliminate Government agencies and programs that are wasteful, duplicative, inefficient, outdated, irrelevant, or have failed to accomplish their intended purpose.

Now, that ought to scare people, and it didn't even get debated, it got tacked onto a must-pass bit of legislation.
there's absolutely no reason for that to scare people. your familiarity with the day to day functioning of our government is weak. these sorts of commissions come up time and time again. and they're a good thing. they are bipartisan - the rules of our goverment system require that, so wave 'bye bye' to the notion that there's anything draconian in it. our legislative systems revel in creating new government agencies and programs, much of it in service to porkbarrel. on a semi regular basis, committees are formed to hash through those programs. the key words you seem to have glossed over are these: "with the express purpose of providing Congress with recommendations". last i checked, recommendations didn't mean 'this commission will wield a sword to eliminate agencies and programs'. any recommendations that would come from that commission would then require debate, and hearings, and eventually - oh, probably five years from now - an actual vote on whether or not to eliminate a given agency or program. you seemingly glossed over this part of it as well: "wasteful, duplicative, inefficient, outdated, irrelevant, or have failed to accomplish their intended purpose". i'm reading that over and over again, and i'm just not seeing "in order to use draconian means to destroy freedom in america". perhaps i need a different font.







The other half, then. The existing emergency powers available to the President in time of emergency, and the consequence of having a power-crazed White House invoking them.
of course, your choice of words betrays your bias. "consequences". your basis is that we *have* a power-crazed white house. i'd much prefer the word "potential". since the current administration has _not_ shown itself to be power-crazed. needless to say, i presume you believe i'm crazed to say that. oh well. i guess that's that difference that comes from me living here, and you just guessing.





I have a couple of paragraphs of an interview with General Tommy Franks, 20 months ago. He sums up the scenario far better than I could:



General Tommy Franks: An exclusive interview with America's top general in the war on terrorism, Monday, December 01, 2003.



Now, let me talk to the substance of your question: Two years after the fact of 9/11, we should ask ourselves what is—not in 1941, not in 1917-1918—today, in the twenty-first century, what is the worst thing that can happen in our country? The worst thing that can happen is, perhaps—and this is my personal opinion—two steps. The first step would be a nexus between weapons of mass destruction of any variety. It could be chemical, it could be biological, it could be some nuclear device; and terrorism. Terrorists or any human being who is committed to the proposition of terror, try to just create casualties, not for the purpose of annihilation, but to terrify a population. We see it in the Middle East today, in order to change the mannerisms, the behavior, the sociology and, ultimately, the anthropology of a society.



That goes to step number two, which is that the western world, the free world, loses what it cherishes most, and that is freedom and liberty we've seen for a couple of hundred years in this grand experiment that we call democracy. Now, in a practical sense, what does that mean? It means the potential of a weapon of mass destruction and a terrorist, massive casualty-producing event somewhere in the western world—it may be in the United States of America—that causes our population to question our own Constitution and to begin to militarize our country in order to avoid a repeat of another mass-casualty-producing event. Which, in fact, then begins to potentially unravel the fabric of our Constitution. Two steps: very, very important.

I agree, if America's Reichstag Moment was actually a bolt from the blue with no prior knowledge on the part of the White House, then all of Tommy Franks' predicted future events are as innocent as apple pie. If, on the other hand, not, then not. That's the place where we can't really meet. I'm sure we can look at the two possible interpretations of recent world history and agree an consequence in each, even if neither of us think both worlds are possible.1. is there a specific reason you excluded the question that was posed to mr. franks?



2. mr. franks isn't 'predicting' anything. that's a curious choice of words on your part. mr. franks is stating what he believes would be the worst thing that could happen, if the two parts play out. he's not saying that they _will_ play out, it sounds to me like he's saying he hopes with all his might that they won't play out. i agree, *if* those things happened, we'd no longer be a free country. but they haven't played out.



3. You repeatedly suggest that 9/11 was "America's Reichstag Moment". this is offensive, innaccurate, and histrionic. to conflate the political aftermath of 9/11 with the aftermath of the reichstag fire is absurd. tell me, what political parties have been banned in the US? none? ah, right. what members of those not-banned political parties have been rounded up and arrested? none? ah, right. what laws have been enacted by president bush without the consent or even involvement of the other two legislative branches of our government? none? ah, right. if as you believe 9/11 was "ARM" (for brevity), then that would mean that the following took place shortly after 9/11, substituting "United States" for "German Empire" (and the appropriate amendments to our Bill of Rights):

§ 1. The articles 114, 115, 117, 118, 123, 124 and 153 of the constitution of the German Empire are suspended until further notice. It is therefore permissible to restrict the rights to personal freedom [ habeas corpus ], freedom of speech, including the freedom of the press, the freedom to organize and assemble, the privacy of letters, mail, telegraphs and telephones, order searches and confiscations and restrict property, even if this is not otherwise provided for by present law.

the suggestion that this is the state of affairs in the United States is patently offensive, because it is dead wrong. the suggestion that we're even remotely close to that is patently offensive, because it is dead wrong.



i'm quite certain that you will reference the execrable "Patriot Act". knock yourself out. be sure to make a point of ignoring the large proportion of our population that is against the measures of that act, and who remarkably enough are *not* in a GULAG. be sure to ignore that our tripartate system of goverment is as stable as it has ever been. be sure to ignore that none of our news organizations has been shut down, and that here on forumgarden - hosted and run in the United States, we are amiably chatting about all this, with a great many members saying a great many things tremendously critical of the current government and administration - yet there are no government censors here culling text or knocking on people's doors for posting those things.



comparing the US of today to the german empire one day after the reichstag fire is sickening.
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MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by spot »

anastrophe wrote: 1. is there a specific reason you excluded the question that was posed to mr. franks?None save keeping the post to a reasonable length. The full text can be googled. The preceding paragraphs are:

[Question: ] You just said that the war in Iraq was not just about weapons of mass destruction, but is part of the overall fight against terrorism. Given that profound statement, what are your feelings about criticism of President Bush that because we've found no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, it suggests the president misled our country, and we had no business going to war there?

Gen. Franks: That's a fair question. I'll give you an answer on two levels. First off, with respect to the whole discussion of what was known that caused our government to decide to go into Iraq and how that was tied to the war on terrorism, and so forth: my first comment is, Ain't this a great country! The people who crafted our Constitution more than 200 years ago saw fit to enable America to be informed, saw fit to enable both negativists and positivists to make their points forcefully. Ain't this a great country? The fact that there is negativism and questioning and political debate and discussion and sniping, and so forth, satisfies me just fine. I'm OK with that. You're quite right to criticize my biased choice of words, too. They're what go through my head as I type, what I lack is a restraining edit before posting. I'll try to do that in future, there's no need to rile anyone with emotion when what I'm trying to put into the thread is detail and focus on where I think the key moments are.
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MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by spot »

anastrophe wrote: what laws have been enacted by president bush without the consent or even involvement of the other two legislative branches of our government? none? ah, right.I've had a good try, while staying away from Patriot. I've spent some hours on the Federal Register. I've read the National Emergencies Act. I've read through the Presidential Proclamations from 2001 to date. To all appearance, the only powers that have been invoked to date have related to the Military, and appropriate to the situation. I've been down the Executive Orders over the same period. Nothing's out of place.

On the other hand, there are historical precedents for secret executive orders, certainly during the 40s and 50s. I wouldn't expect to see confirmation of the existence of any more recent than those in the history textbooks showing the start of the Cold War - more recent than that gets tied up with the current generation. I know they can exist, I know they'd make a difference to the picture, I can't say they're not legalizing commands that I can't prove to exist. All of which is as one would expect. It's why conspiracy theories abound, there are closed doors in government. If government were transparent there would be no legal options which would interest any conspiracy theorist. Besides, anything out of place in the areas I've looked would have been screamed from the front page of even the Washington Post, had it existed. It was an informative trip.

Time will have to tell. Daniel Ellsberg will continue to write, urging insiders to consider what's best for their country. People like John Dean will continue to write background pieces, sites will continue to refine timelines. Nobody will be happier than I if it all turns out to be a mare's nest, but I doubt we shall be so lucky.
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koan
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MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by koan »

What is this? Mission Impossible? The Patriot Act is protected by secrecy. The government does not have to reveal any information about investigations or arrests and they don't. How are facts and stats to be collected? Ohhhh. Maybe we are supposed to take the governments "word" for it. When the ALA fought against the section that allows library records to be searched they were told they were being hysterical. "Trust us" that is not what we intend to do with the legislation. Asked how many times it was used the government said a total of "0" times. The ALA had records of 50 requests for record searches at the time of that statement.

Lawyers have been retained for groups of people wrongfully detained. There is a report online about a restaurant being invaded and the customers and staff terrorized by police who later apologised. Apparently the were misinformed.

But you are right. America is perfect safe and constitutional...if you are not an Arab, a Muslim or a member of an "anti-american" organization (like war protesters or "left wing" groups). There were thousands arrested and detained with no notification to their families. Some are still "missing".
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MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by BTS »

koan wrote: There were thousands arrested and detained with no notification to their families. Some are still "missing". Meaning what? Got any sources to back up these wild eyed claims?

Thousands arrested?



Some Missing?

Did the guys with the dark sunglasses come and get them?
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MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by anastrophe »

koan wrote: What is this? Mission Impossible? The Patriot Act is protected by secrecy. The government does not have to reveal any information about investigations or arrests and they don't. How are facts and stats to be collected? Ohhhh. Maybe we are supposed to take the governments "word" for it. When the ALA fought against the section that allows library records to be searched they were told they were being hysterical. "Trust us" that is not what we intend to do with the legislation. Asked how many times it was used the government said a total of "0" times. The ALA had records of 50 requests for record searches at the time of that statement.



Lawyers have been retained for groups of people wrongfully detained. There is a report online about a restaurant being invaded and the customers and staff terrorized by police who later apologised. Apparently the were misinformed.



But you are right. America is perfect safe and constitutional...if you are not an Arab, a Muslim or a member of an "anti-american" organization (like war protesters or "left wing" groups). There were thousands arrested and detained with no notification to their families. Some are still "missing".
feel free to be as shrill and hostile as possible.



so, is canada perfectly safe and constitutional? one must come to that conclusion, since you spend all of your time researching the things that are wrong with the US, and seem to have no interest in addressing the things that are wrong in your own country.



have we annexed canada? we must have, because apparently the patriot act affects you.



oh - of course, the rejoinder will be that 'if there is a wrong anywhere in the world, i am wronged as well', and other such inflated, self-congratulatory pap.



you spend your time looking for dirt on america. since there are obviously things wrong in america (what country is perfect?), you may clap your hands with glee at your cleverness in pointing it out to us stupid americans.
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MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by anastrophe »

BTS wrote: Meaning what? Got any sources to back up these wild eyed claims?

Thousands arrested?



Some Missing?

Did the guys with the dark sunglasses come and get them?you don't get it BTS. it's all secret!!! the press has been bound and gagged.



yes, they do wear dark sunglasses. they arrive in black helicopters. the miscreants are whisked away never to be seen again, and all nearby homes have a notice stapled to the door advising them that if they ever mention it, Bad Things Will Happen To Them.



of course, if reality weren't so palpably and shockingly mundane, these wild eyed lunatic claims might have an iota of believability.



three middle-eastern people living in lodi, california - a dinky little town in the heart of the largely conservative central valley - were arrested recently, charged with an assortment of terrorism related offenses. now, one would think - suburban, community, mostly conservative (thus flag waving redneck patriots) - what better place to 'disappear' some damn towelheads where the locals would cheerfully agree to keep it all quiet?



you cannot imagine the clamor. those charged have lawyers, oh, and need i point out *they were charged*, not disappeared - it's made all the TV news stations, the local police gave interviews regarding the operation - it's a big deal - and it's just three dark skinned arabs. in koan's world, these people just go missing. the fantasies that people are entertaining are remarkable. it's what happens when you get all your news from the Art Bell Conspiracy hour.



and live in canada, apparently.
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koan
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Post by koan »

Really. Relocating all the sources for any little thing I say is such a tedious lowball tactic of trying to discredit the info. I have much better things to do than sit here making up conspiracies. No I don't believe in the lizard people. I do have a real job, you know.

The library story. Dedication by author of Censored 2005. Produced by Project Censored every year...top 25 censored stories researched by students of SSU. The ALA reports 50 cases of the Patriot act being used to intimidate librarians into opening library records at the time the Ashcroft claimed there had been no used recorded.

I typed 'patriot act detained' into google and found a site where about ten lawyers made statements of representation for varying numbers of citizens as a group claim against the government for wrongful detainment. I am not about to go through my entire search history from the last two days to find the site.

restaurant story: http://www.alternet.org/story/15770

Why doesn't everyone else have to post every source for every comment they make?
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MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by koan »

anastrophe wrote: feel free to be as shrill and hostile as possible.



so, is canada perfectly safe and constitutional? one must come to that conclusion, since you spend all of your time researching the things that are wrong with the US, and seem to have no interest in addressing the things that are wrong in your own country.



have we annexed canada? we must have, because apparently the patriot act affects you.



oh - of course, the rejoinder will be that 'if there is a wrong anywhere in the world, i am wronged as well', and other such inflated, self-congratulatory pap.



you spend your time looking for dirt on america. since there are obviously things wrong in america (what country is perfect?), you may clap your hands with glee at your cleverness in pointing it out to us stupid americans.


your doing a poor job of ignoring me. Though I noticed you ignored my reminder on how I made your "ignore list" for challenging your classification of my comment as "non sequitor". You also refused to answer my question when you seemed to imply that that the US had no domestic problems so why should I answer your ditto.

BTW There is an organization trying to promote annexing Canada. Would you like a source? OK. www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=98046 in case I copied it down wrong because...yes I have more than one info source and I now have to write them down with a side note if I ever want to make reference to something I read...Robert Pastor, Ind. Task Force on North America, Council on Foreign Relations. Is it bad to want to be informed? Should I sit here and wait to see what happens in the world when it knocks on my front door. Annexing Canada strikes me as a joke. But there was the site...about an hour before you made the comment. What I call coincidence you call conniving, I guess.

Read your comment then think about what you accuse me of. Shall I call your conclusions non sequitor as well? I would be more justified than your previous usage of it.
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Post by anastrophe »

koan wrote: Relocating all the sources for any little thing I say is such a tedious lowball tactic of trying to discredit the info. you make wild claims, you have to expect it.



The library story. Dedication by author of Censored 2005. Produced by Project Censored every year...top 25 censored stories researched by students of SSU. The ALA reports 50 cases of the Patriot act being used to intimidate librarians into opening library records at the time the Ashcroft claimed there had been no used recorded.
cool. i'd never heard of project censored before. sonoma state university (SSU) is about a mile from where i live. it's amazing how good the government is at censorship. a sonoma state university, funded by the state government, and yet they're able to run project censored right out there in the open, them's some brass balls they have.



it's not good that the government denies the records were used. on the other hand, the government seems to be doing a ****-poor job of repressing us downtrodden US citizens, seeing as project censored exists, and stuff like this is reported on constantly. but of course, as spot would put it, we've already had our reichstag fire - all of our rights here in the US have been suspended.



NOT.





I typed 'patriot act detained' into google and found a site where about ten lawyers made statements of representation for varying numbers of citizens as a group claim against the government for wrongful detainment. I am not about to go through my entire search history from the last two days to find the site.
okay. "patriot act detained" in google produces eight results, with duplicates omitted. all i see are diffuse references to people being detained, but no specifics. nothing about people still missing. oh well.





restaurant story: http://www.alternet.org/story/15770



Why doesn't everyone else have to post every source for every comment they make?
because we aren't making wild claims.



note regarding the restaurant story. a search on the author's name and 'raid' comes up with 721 hits. it appears all of them are reposts of the story.



think about it. i'm not defending what happened. but you have ONE example of an egregious incident. if america was perfect, then i'd be outraged. i'm certainly upset by it (though i don't appreciate the authors asides based on his opinion, while ostensibly reporting an incident [I doubt, though, they received any apologies from the INS or the Department of Homeland Security. -- he has no basis for saying that, since he doesn't know]), but i'm not going to do as you do and inflate it to massive proportions, suggesting that america is experiencing kristalnacht as we speak.
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koan wrote: your doing a poor job of ignoring me. Though I noticed you ignored my reminder on how I made your "ignore list" for challenging your classification of my comment as "non sequitor". You also refused to answer my question when you seemed to imply that that the US had no domestic problems so why should I answer your ditto.



BTW There is an organization trying to promote annexing Canada. Would you like a source? OK. www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=98046 in case I copied it down wrong because...yes I have more than one info source and I now have to write them down with a side note if I ever want to make reference to something I read...Robert Pastor, Ind. Task Force on North America, Council on Foreign Relations. Is it bad to want to be informed? Should I sit here and wait to see what happens in the world when it knocks on my front door. Annexing Canada strikes me as a joke. But there was the site...about an hour before you made the comment. What I call coincidence you call conniving, I guess.



Read your comment then think about what you accuse me of. Shall I call your conclusions non sequitor as well? I would be more justified than your previous usage of it.
thanks for reminding me why i put you on my ignore list.
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MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by nvalleyvee »

Our men of the military are not home yet - the mission is not accomplished. Iraqi citizens are being blown up by car bombs almost every day - the mission is not accomplished.
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Post by koan »

As it turns out it was the very last link in my history. And I dug it up just for all the people who think I am making this crap up for fun.

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/sac/dc0603/ch5.htm

Malea Kiblan

Immigration attorney, Kiblan & Battles

I have been retained by the Embassy of Saudi Arabia to secure legal assistance for their nationals who have been detained. Probably more than 2,500 people have been detained since September 11;


Kelli M. Evans

Civil rights attorney, Rehlman Associates

My firm is currently representing four individuals who were removed from flights following September 11, not for any legitimate security reasons, but because of their Arab appearance.


Raj Purohit

Legislative counsel, Washington office, Lawyers Committee for Human Rights

In the months after September 11, more than 1,100 people were detained, mostly Arab and Muslim men. The authorities have refused to disclose their identities and places of detention, leaving families and advocates to struggle for information about those still in custody, as well as about the many who have been deported. As of April 12, 2002, more than 300 remain in custody.


I think it is a reasonable assumption that these are not the only cases.
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Post by CVX »

Just for discussion. Please don't crucify me for posting this:

Psychological Armor

By JB Campbell

Here's one reason that so many American soldiers and marines have died in Iraq...



Back in 1981, I was the head of a bulletproof car company in Monterey, California. We'd construct a box made of Lexgard inside a limo or regular car. It was pretty effective but difficult to install. Lexgard is General Electric's transparent polycarbonate armor, very effective at stopping handgun bullets. If you put a hard surface in front of it, such as glass or sheet metal, it will stop rifle bullets. After the bullet hits the hard surface it is upset slightly on its axis and is then trapped in the dense but crystal-clear polycarbonate material.



The FMC factory was in nearby San Jose. I read a story about the troubles with the aluminum armor on their new Bradley Fighting Vehicle. The Bradley was having PR problems already but now the issue was the armor. Aluminum is a bad material for armor, since it doesn't stop bullets very well. When they come through, they cause something called "spall," which means that the pieces of the armor itself become deadly little weapons. And aluminum burns.



The army, though, wanted to save weight so they told FMC to make the Bradleys out of aluminum. (FMC was later sold and is today United Defense LP, owned in part by George Bush's Carlyle Group.)



So I went to FMC and proposed to line the inside of a Bradley with Lexgard, the way we did with limos. This would protect everyone from spall and fire, because Lexgard is fireproof and non-toxic. Installation would have been relatively easy in the boxy Bradley. I was politely turned down.



Puzzled, I called Dr. Charles Church, the head of research at the Pentagon. He said, "Listen don't try to modify an existing vehicle. If you want to do something, design it from the ground up and make your armor integral with your chassis."



So that's what I did. I came up with something I called "The FLEA," which stood for, "Forward Light Escort, Armored." I used an unknown but powerful fiberglass armor for the body with hardened Lexgard windows. It was to be hydraulically operated with its wheels almost two feet away from the body, for protection against tank landmines. My design was based on my experience with landmines in Rhodesia as a member of their security forces in the terror war in the 70s.



Shortly after my design was complete (1982), the army put out a request for proposal (RFP) for a new vehicle they called the "High Mobility Multi-purpose Wheeled Vehicle," or "HMMWV." The new Jeep and light truck. I duly submitted the FLEA to Tank Automotive Command (TACOM) in Michigan.



After a month or so, I called TACOM and inquired as to the progress of the selection process. The officer said, "The FLEA yes, I have it here Oh, yeah this is armored. We don't want armor."



I knew the specification they wanted. The bodywork had to defeat the equivalent of a pellet fired from a pellet gun. Something like 19 grains at 435 feet per second. Something silly like that. I mentioned this to the officer. "Yeah, right. We call it psychological armor'"



"'Psychological armor?'" I let that sink in to my brain. "You mean, the guys just THINK they're sitting behind armor?"



He chuckled. "Yeah, pretty much."



"But, " I said, "I'm under the weight requirement even with the armor. Why not give them the protection?"



"That's not what we want."



I kept trying to get some interest in the vehicle for its own sake, as a tank killer, not as a Humvee. No sale. Well, actually, there was some interest. I got a retired general to promote it to the army's Advanced Development Experimental Agency at Ft. Hunter Liggett. They liked it and sent it to their commander at Ft. Lewis, who liked it and sent it to TACOM, who didn't like it again.



In 1993 I took a chance and put $80,000 into building the rolling (unarmored) chassis, so people could actually see its basic dimensions and logic. The army still wasn't interested, apparently not wanting to believe that a lightweight vehicle could do what I advertised.



Then I forgot about the whole thing til 2000, when my old friend, Skip, persuaded me to go to a symposium on humanitarian demining in Monterey. I made some good contacts, such as the general who became the head of Army Materiel Command. He was vitally interested in mine protection. But I became vitally interested in humanitarian mine removal. I thought the FLEA would be ideal for this noble effort, since I was by this time a serious opponent of the US Army, the US government and war. I also had been blown up by an anti-tank mine in Africa in 1973 while riding in a police Land Rover, so I appreciated the mine problem made famous by the late Diana, although she was involved more in the small but terrible anti-personnel mines.



By 2003, I moved to Las Vegas and became partners with a guy who liked my humanitarian plan. The FLEA was now patented and protected here and overseas. I began to seek support for the humanitarian version of the vehicle. It turned out that the US Army in charge of humanitarian demining, so they were invited to come to Las Vegas to view the now-armored rolling chassis. The two men who came were the director of combat development at Fort Leonard Wood and a man from Night Vision Labs in New Jersey, a retired colonel. The men were astonished on seeing the FLEA. One said that he'd been asking TACOM for just such a design for years, that is, a lightweight vehicle that could withstand the hit of an anti-tank mine. He was told repeatedly that such a vehicle was impossible. "But here it is," he marveled, "this is how you beat the tank mine, with your wheels way outboard."



It was clear there was no budget for a humanitarian demining vehicle, but there was great interest in this thing for Iraq.



The FLEA is designed to keep moving with the loss of one or even three wheels. By now the design had replaced the hydraulic operation with hybrid-electric drive and steering and air suspension. And it had six wheels instead of four.



The man confided several secrets to us, secrets about the Bosnian adventure and about the six-month old invasion of Iraq. American vehicles were unusable in Bosnia, he said, due to their gross weight. "The roads and bridges couldn't support them and they never left the airport." This would continue to be a problem even in Iraq, where the ballyhooed "Stryker" vehicle would collapse roads and bridges and roll over into canals and drown crewmen.



He said, "You've obviously solved the tank-mine problem, but the real threat in Iraq is the IED (improvised explosive device)." The IED would continue to cause 70% of US casualties to this day. He revealed that even the Future Combat System requirement for mine protection was only against anti-personnel mines!





But, of course, the real scandal is the ridiculous Humvee, perhaps the most preposterous idea of all, after the invasion itself. A preposterous invasion needs a preposterous vehicle.



First of all, the Humvee is just an aggressive-looking station wagon. It has four doors, unless they are removed. If you want to shoot out from the thing, the doors have to be removed, so you can swing your rifle around. That's what we did in Rhodesia, with our Land Rovers. Took the doors off so that when we drove into an ambush we could return fire and save ourselves. The Humvee's windows don't roll down, so you can't shoot with the doors closed. And it's pretty silly to open the door and try to stick your rifle out with the thing swinging around as you're trying to return fire, escaping up the road. A real tactical vehicle has no roof, either, so that you can see and shoot at an overhead threat.



As we saw with the "psychological armor" bit, it doesn't really matter if the doors are on or off, because you have no protection either way. With the doors off, you can at least shoot back. With the doors on, you're a sitting duck. And the real problem is not bullets, but blast from IEDs. Serious armor protection was called for! Duh.



So, when enough people started getting killed in these things, the army decided to armor them. It went from the ridiculous to the insane.



Meanwhile, TACOM (now TAACOM) sent engineers from its R&D group, TARDEC, to Las Vegas for discussions with us in January, 2004. We also had representatives from Michelin, Eaton-Vickers and the armor manufacturer in San Antonio (Safeguard Security) and others present, plus men from Senator Harry Reid, who was backing the project. The TARDEC men said that the landmine requirement for Future Combat System vehicles would have to be rewritten now, due to the FLEA's design. The FLEA would be funded for 2005 and Senator Reid's military liaison said that if TARDEC would go ahead and use some discretionary funds for 2004, the senator would pay them back in '05, so as to get this wonderful vehicle to the troops this year ('04). This was agreed to by the TARDEC men. By all accounts it was an unprecedented meeting of army, industry, political and us entrepreneurs. Michelin has a fantastic new plastic wheel/tire combo that is virtually indestructible. They were interested in introducing it on the FLEA. So were we. And so was the army. I regaled everyone with the story about Psychological Armor. The chief engineer from TARDEC squirmed and said quietly, "Let's hope that doesn't come out"



Later in January my partner and I flew to Washington DC to meet with Senator Reid's chief counsel, the US Army Materiel Command and the State Department's landmine removal personnel.



The Army Materiel Command had tried to get us into business with United Defense, mentioned above. The general thought if UD went ahead and built the prototype, the army could purchase it that way. But United Defense wouldn't do it without millions of dollars being paid to them first. That's how they're used to doing things. It's the Halliburton method.



All went well until we got back to Las Vegas. The army had investigated us and found that we were both politically incorrect. Perhaps "incorrect" is not strong enough a word. Disastrous is the word. Actually, I'd been in a strange situation, a true enemy of the state wandering around the capital of enemy-occupied territory, going into the Senate and House office buildings, gathering congressional support for the FLEA. Several congressmen and two senators signed on with Senator Reid. Reid's senior counsel asked me to draft a letter from Reid to Rumsfeld, which I did do. Reid, Ensign and Carl Levin signed it, along with some congress-people on the House Armed Services Committee who had raised hell with the army chief of staff a couple of days earlier over the failures of the Humvee. My future seemed secure! Anything for the troops! I turned out to be quite an effective lobbyist.



Jeremy Hekhuis was Carl Levin's assistant in the Senate Armed Services Committee office. His eyebrows raised on hearing the Psychological Armor story, since by that time quite a number of GIs had been killed in un-armored Humvees. "Well, let's hope that that doesn't come out"



However, I was the guy who started the militia movement back in the late 80s, with my book, The New American Man. I had also written quite a bit since then against the US government and against the state of Israel, as I still do from time to time. In my book I had actually called for the overthrow of the Zionist US government. No one took me very seriously in 1989 except for the government. The militia movement did take off around 1991 but all it really did was stockpile a bunch of guns and ammo. The FBI and CIA, though, thought that I was very serious, which I was. They followed me everywhere for a year or more. They sent informants to get friendly with me.



The Secret Service in 1991 threatened to kill me if I was anywhere near President GHW Bush, currently the head of United Defense. There was irony all over the place.



Senator Reid's chief counsel now said that the army and the senator would have nothing to do with the FLEA because of what I had written about Israel! That was all that mattered, my criticism of Zionism and its control of the US government. The glaring need of a safe vehicle became irrelevant.



Frankly, I was relieved. The whole thing had gotten out of control. I, of all people, trying to protect the troops. Did the troops deserve a decent vehicle? Not really, since they're nothing but vicious, mindless war criminals, like their commander-in-chief and his Zionist controllers.



But maybe the parents of the 1,700 dead troops (or is it 9,000?) and the thousands of injured and maimed troops would not appreciate the army's need to avoid offending the Zionists by refusing on principle to deal with a helpful villain such as I. I'd had a bumper sticker on my truck since 2002, when it appeared that Bush was going to invade Iraq for his own personal reasons: "Bush Is A Liar And An Oil Thief." That was a year before the invasion. I had been severely injured by two poisonings in Las Vegas over that bumper sticker, or maybe the other one, which read, "Stop Obeying Our Zionist Parasites." I paid heavily for my "free speech" right.



I gave the patent to my friend, Skip. It's in his name now. What he does or doesn't do with it is a matter of complete indifference to me. My wife and I are involved in another, much more important project.



Before we leave this ridiculous (but true) story, let's see what happened to the Humvee. It got "armored."



While we were still friendly, Senator Reid had encouraged us to visit the Nevada Automotive Test Center near Reno. This is truly a fantastic if unknown place. Situated on a million acres in the desert and mountains near the ruins of Ft. Churchill, NATC is the test bed for most new military vehicles and many civilian vehicles. The engineers are the best and they know what is needed for vehicles to survive the worst military and off-road conditions. They even have a half-mile oval track with electronic controls under the pavement so that big rigs can be run for a million miles with no drivers, to be stopped only for fuel and maintenance.



The owners gave us the royal treatment and they were enthusiastic about improving the design of the FLEA so that it would pass all tests and be immediately accepted by the army, as well as perform even beyond what I and my design engineer, himself a Medal of Honor winner (Vietnam), had designed it to do. John Martin had also been blown up by a Soviet TM-46 tank mine, as had I. The FLEA is undoubtedly the only vehicle designed by two guys who'd survived tank mine explosions in lighter vehicles.



When we got there I was surprised to see fifteen or so stripped down Humvees parked around the place. Bolted to the front and rear of each vehicle were heavy weights. The chief engineer explained that the army wanted these Humvees tested with the added three thousand pounds to simulate the weight of the new armor kits and OEM armoring that was to be done. The army wanted to test tire wear with the extra weight. Early results showed that the tire wear had gone all to hell.



The NATC guys had just come back from Iraq. Talk about tire wear! Talk about well, you name it. The supply convoys out of Kuwait are run like this: 60+ miles per hour for the 900 mile round trip. If anybody gets ambushed or breaks down, he's on his own. The convoy keeps rolling! See you on the flip side. Or not.



When the vehicles get into the built-up areas, there are nine-inch square curbs along the streets. If there is a problem with a breakdown or ambush, all vehicles have to crash over the curbs to get around the stalled vehicle. This tends to destroy the front ends of all the vehicles. Alignment is not possible. Tires last a few thousand miles. No vehicles will be returned to the US after the war because they are all trashed. This of course makes the truck and car makers very sad, because they all have to be replaced. Se le guerre!



But here is the reality of the "armored Humvees:" These essentially half-ton civilian vehicles in camouflage paint are not designed to have three thousand pounds added to them. That's three times more than their payload in the first place, which means that with the armor added, they have no payload! Instead of carrying four soldiers, they can only carry three. But that's better because only three guys will be killed instead of four. Killed by an IED or by an RPG or killed by the heat.



An early modified Humvee was hit by an IED in Baghdad. The officer reported that "the ass end was blown off and we were stranded, but they couldn't hit us with bullets" They had to get out pretty quickly, though, and brave the bullets because the stranded wreck was soon hit by an RPG. This was the idea behind the FLEA: you have to be able to drive away from the kill zone without having to get out and walk.



There's no air conditioning on any military vehicle. The FLEA would have been the first because it was designed that way. What's the inside temperature of a vehicle in Iraq in the summertime? Pretty much like Las Vegas or Phoenix: over 140. In one of these jobs with sealed, inch and a half thick windows, we can just feel the heat stroke starting. And you still can't defend yourself in one of these rolling ovens because the windows don't open. The doors do, if you're on level ground they weigh 200 pounds. Don't stick your rifle out this open door because if it swings shut, it'll bend your barrel.



These are the kit cars, the ones with aftermarket armor kits. Then there are the new ones, the "up-armored" ones. These guys are so heavy that they had to be totally redesigned with more powerful engines, transmissions, suspensions, brakes just to handle the weight of the armor. There's no payload either because they're just barely designed to carry their own weight, which is pretty dumb.



Back in '82, when the HMMWV was being designed, the US Army must have thought it was never going to be shot at, ever again. That's the charitable view. A more realistic view is that the US Army doesn't give a damn if the troops get shot at or not. They're expendable, just like the vehicles. The army must come up with a way to procure more of them for our next excellent adventure in Zionist genocide.
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MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by spot »

koan wrote: But you are right. America is perfect safe and constitutional...if you are not an Arab, a Muslim or a member of an "anti-american" organization (like war protesters or "left wing" groups). Actually, that's not the heart of the problem. It's "if you are a US citizen who is not also an Arab, a Muslim or a member of an "anti-american" organization". Absolutely every non-citizen has had every vestige of "rights" stripped away by this legislation, whether they live in or visit the US, or (like me) just exist elsewhere on the planet.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
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MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by anastrophe »

spot wrote: Actually, that's not the heart of the problem. It's "if you are a US citizen who is not also an Arab, a Muslim or a member of an "anti-american" organization". Absolutely every non-citizen has had every vestige of "rights" stripped away by this legislation, whether they live in or visit the US, or (like me) just exist elsewhere on the planet.
and you base this fiction on? how can US legislation strip away your rights? curious thought. it's funny, there are non-citizens all over the town i live in. i haven't noticed any GULAGs lately for them, but then - of course! it's all a SECRET! there are SECRET UNDERGROUND GULAGS where the non-citizens are 'disappeared'.



crackpots everywhere, sheesh.
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MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by turbonium »

lodi, california - a dinky little town in the heart of the largely conservative central valley - were arrested recently, charged with an assortment of terrorism related offenses. now, one would think - suburban, community, mostly conservative (thus flag waving redneck patriots)
I've stayed in Lodi a few times on my way to Southern Cal. They are some of the nicest, down to earth people I've ever met. "Small town America" are places I'd recommend everyone visit - it's not like in so many movies with the stereotype "Billy Bob" rednecks who "don't like strangers".

I know your description of Lodi was meant sarcastically, anastrophe, I just thought I'd let people who may be unaware that these places have really friendly, welcoming folks. They make you feel like you're family.. :)
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MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by starlight »

CVX, that is a good story you told about you in the war but it still doesn't explain the big question: Who in the world gave us the power to tell another country what to do with their country? When you think about it in a different perspective: if another country like China for instant would try to come in this country and tell us what to do; what in the world do you think would happen? A war would break out just the same way it is in Iraq. They been fighting for years and they will keep fighting when we leave from there just the same as vietnam. Didn't we learn anything from Vietnam? I guess not because we are doing the same stupid thing we done years ago. We can be compared to Hitler but in a different perspective because we want to rule the "world" and doing anything to do it even if it means to kill many soldiers along the way and not giving the real explanation to do so because we know that the "men" would serve their country with no questions asked. How stupid and irresponsible does that sound? If I was drafted into the service; I would shoot myself before serving a country that would allow soldiers (and many of them are kids even though they are 18) to die for some stupid and irresponsible reason.

Yes, there were many wars that was stupid but I think the President topped it all because he is acting like a kid who wants what he wants and when he wants it and know that it is his last run and can do just about anything he please and that nobody can do a damn thing about it. Lord help us for the next 4 years. We should have never went to war with Iraq because they didn't start the 9/11 and surely didn't start a war with us; we started with them and I can see why they are killing as many soldiers they are because we are invading their country no matter how we see it or think that we are helping when the big picture shows that we are not; we are just killing many of the soldiers who are fathers, sons, daughters, mothers, and humans for what? Is it because the president want their oil which they are not willing to give? I wouldn't give my oil if the country is willing to kill many humans and innocents to do so either.

Mission Accomplished in Iraq is a big joke and at the end; they will be laughing at us at the end.
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MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by MicahLorain »

I am new here and wanted to pitch my two cents on this. The war won't be over for awhile. The area is very complicated. To expect the place to be like Arizona after only a few years is plain ridiculous. It will take alot of time and money to change the dangerous attitudes of the moslem world. The soldiers will sense the loss of homeland support and this will be a tougher challenge than the war itself. So Bush made a victory speech too soon. Let's look forward for the future.
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Re: MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by spot »

spot wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:16 am Far Rider wrote: You know spot for a brit you got a lot of guts.

First your Boy George comment is offensive. I don't agree with my President very often, but his office is to be respected. I hated Clinton but when he was President I refered to him as Mr. President. And My Commander and Chief.
I knew I'd find that if I did a search.

That was 17 years ago, but is stuck in my head. The office of President is to be respected, according to Far, regardless of who holds it.

I'll make this a general question, since Far is very unlikely to log in again and see it. I think the notion of respect for the office was the majority view in America 17 years ago.

Is it still?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
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Re: MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:04 pm
spot wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:16 am Far Rider wrote: You know spot for a brit you got a lot of guts.

First your Boy George comment is offensive. I don't agree with my President very often, but his office is to be respected. I hated Clinton but when he was President I refered to him as Mr. President. And My Commander and Chief.
I knew I'd find that if I did a search.

That was 17 years ago, but is stuck in my head. The office of President is to be respected, according to Far, regardless of who holds it.

I'll make this a general question, since Far is very unlikely to log in again and see it. I think the notion of respect for the office was the majority view in America 17 years ago.

Is it still?
Self evidently not given the way the country is divided
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Re: MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by LarsMac »

spot wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:04 pm
spot wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:16 am Far Rider wrote: You know spot for a brit you got a lot of guts.

First your Boy George comment is offensive. I don't agree with my President very often, but his office is to be respected. I hated Clinton but when he was President I refered to him as Mr. President. And My Commander and Chief.
I knew I'd find that if I did a search.

That was 17 years ago, but is stuck in my head. The office of President is to be respected, according to Far, regardless of who holds it.

I'll make this a general question, since Far is very unlikely to log in again and see it. I think the notion of respect for the office was the majority view in America 17 years ago.

Is it still?
Well, I still believe so. and even many of the right leaning neighbors we have do. While they did fall for the Trumpian, they now see what he has done to the office, and they seem to be rapidly pulling away from the what he has done to the Party. Though their dissatisfaction with the Democrats still drive their political leanings, there is hope that the Republican Party may turn its back on the Orange Toad, and learn to move on.

So, yes, we all still respect the Office.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
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Re: MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by LarsMac »

LarsMac wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:03 pm
spot wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:04 pm
spot wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:16 am Far Rider wrote: You know spot for a brit you got a lot of guts.

First your Boy George comment is offensive. I don't agree with my President very often, but his office is to be respected. I hated Clinton but when he was President I refered to him as Mr. President. And My Commander and Chief.
I knew I'd find that if I did a search.

That was 17 years ago, but is stuck in my head. The office of President is to be respected, according to Far, regardless of who holds it.

I'll make this a general question, since Far is very unlikely to log in again and see it. I think the notion of respect for the office was the majority view in America 17 years ago.

Is it still?
Well, I still believe so. and even many of the right leaning neighbors we have do. While they did fall for the Trumpian, they now see what he has done to the office, and they seem to be rapidly pulling away from the what he has done to the Party. Though their dissatisfaction with the Democrats may still drive their political leanings, there is hope that the Republican Party may turn its back on the Orange Toad, and learn to move on.

So, yes, we all still respect the Office.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
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Re: MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by spot »

What did you make of https://www.forumgarden.com/forums/view ... d#p1536747 in that context?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Re: MIssion Accomplished in Iraq?

Post by LarsMac »

spot wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:43 pm What did you make of https://www.forumgarden.com/forums/view ... d#p1536747 in that context?
Not much, really. Some folks have way too much time on their hands.
And that was mild compared to some of the shit that Obama's White House got.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
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