ON BEING A CHRISTIAN
The title above is borrowed from Hans Kung's book of the same Title.
It might make for an interesting discussion to try to come to grips with what it really means to be a Christian. No attempt is being made here to sway anyone. I am A Christian Pluralist and I respect all the great faiths of the world and those of no faith. We must each choose our own path and go the route that is best for us.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Religious
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capt_buzzard
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Religious
What do you say to those who have no faith and do not believe?
Religious
Capt :-6
I don't go about preselytizing, for sure. If the issue arises, I state what I believe but stress that we must each follow our own path in this life. I will persue it further if they ask.
Otherwise I leave it up to those who observe that somehow I am different and then they may want to know what the difference is. Then I can explain further.
If we read Matt 25 very carefully we see that Jesus invites all those into God's Kingdom because they have fed the hungry, clothed the naked, cared for the sick etc. It is also clear from Matt 25 that there are those invited into the kingdom who had no knowledge of the Kingdom or what it took.
His response was "in so much as you did it to the least of these my brethern you did it to me. What we find is that Jesus way is the way but it is also the way taught in most other faiths: to care for those in need to help the downtrodden and oppressed, to fight against the domination system, which by the way is still here in different forms.
Jesus demonstrated quite clearly that God's love and grace are unconditional. The minute you add rules and proviso's it is no longer unconditional. Of course there is the imperative as per above but any decent human being would already know that. As the scriptures say God has written the laws in all hearts. Christianity is not an exclusive club it is totally inclusive.
To be a follower of Jesus or a Christian is simple. It means to live in a transforming relationship with the risen Lord. It is not about belief or dogma or doctrine. It is about a transforming relationship with the Risen Lord or if from another faith a transforming relationship with God. And let us remember that God has a thousand names: God, Allah, The Creator etc. All faiths are man's response to his/her experience of the Divine and man's search for the Divine.
Shalom
Ted :-6
I don't go about preselytizing, for sure. If the issue arises, I state what I believe but stress that we must each follow our own path in this life. I will persue it further if they ask.
Otherwise I leave it up to those who observe that somehow I am different and then they may want to know what the difference is. Then I can explain further.
If we read Matt 25 very carefully we see that Jesus invites all those into God's Kingdom because they have fed the hungry, clothed the naked, cared for the sick etc. It is also clear from Matt 25 that there are those invited into the kingdom who had no knowledge of the Kingdom or what it took.
His response was "in so much as you did it to the least of these my brethern you did it to me. What we find is that Jesus way is the way but it is also the way taught in most other faiths: to care for those in need to help the downtrodden and oppressed, to fight against the domination system, which by the way is still here in different forms.
Jesus demonstrated quite clearly that God's love and grace are unconditional. The minute you add rules and proviso's it is no longer unconditional. Of course there is the imperative as per above but any decent human being would already know that. As the scriptures say God has written the laws in all hearts. Christianity is not an exclusive club it is totally inclusive.
To be a follower of Jesus or a Christian is simple. It means to live in a transforming relationship with the risen Lord. It is not about belief or dogma or doctrine. It is about a transforming relationship with the Risen Lord or if from another faith a transforming relationship with God. And let us remember that God has a thousand names: God, Allah, The Creator etc. All faiths are man's response to his/her experience of the Divine and man's search for the Divine.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Religious
Capt :-6
Being a Christian does not mean that I have to deny the validity of the other faiths. That would be unchristian as far as I am concerned. What it means to the Christian is that we see in Jesus the decisive manifestation of God. God has shown us the way in this person. This does not mean it is the only manifestation.
The pre-Easter Jesus was very much a human being with all our faults and failings. However, he demonstrated a very special relationship with God. He didn't just know of God he knew God. He was a Jewish mystic, a healer, an itenerant teacher, an exorcist etc. He taught the imminent arrival of the kingdom of God that was to be established on earth and continue into eternity. Is that kingdom here? In many places. He warned that the way was difficult and that few could do it but it would appeal that it is growing.
The Kingdom of God is a whole other issue. That will do for now.
The post-Easter Jesus is the risen Lord. We do not know what the Easter event actually was but somehow his disciples who were hiding in fear of their lives felt that He was still there guiding them. They came out into the open and risked there lives for his message. Many millions down through the ages have had the experiential reality of the Risen Lord. It is not something that goes away.
Anyway I've talked enough.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Being a Christian does not mean that I have to deny the validity of the other faiths. That would be unchristian as far as I am concerned. What it means to the Christian is that we see in Jesus the decisive manifestation of God. God has shown us the way in this person. This does not mean it is the only manifestation.
The pre-Easter Jesus was very much a human being with all our faults and failings. However, he demonstrated a very special relationship with God. He didn't just know of God he knew God. He was a Jewish mystic, a healer, an itenerant teacher, an exorcist etc. He taught the imminent arrival of the kingdom of God that was to be established on earth and continue into eternity. Is that kingdom here? In many places. He warned that the way was difficult and that few could do it but it would appeal that it is growing.
The Kingdom of God is a whole other issue. That will do for now.
The post-Easter Jesus is the risen Lord. We do not know what the Easter event actually was but somehow his disciples who were hiding in fear of their lives felt that He was still there guiding them. They came out into the open and risked there lives for his message. Many millions down through the ages have had the experiential reality of the Risen Lord. It is not something that goes away.
Anyway I've talked enough.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Religious
The term religious most often brings to mind the Christian faith, followed by the other major religions of the world. It has come up a few times that criticism or questioning of the Christian Church is worded as a questioning of "religion". I think that religion has a much broader sense in the actual meaning of the word. It would be interesting to hear how Christians define their sense of religion and what it means to them as a result of their faith as well as what other faiths consider this word to mean.
I call myself a Hermeticist, which I think is like Christian Pluralism without a major. To me religion is a sense of the divine, something (a force or energy) beyond the realm of human understanding that guides and protects, teaches and disciplines and inspires people to achieve. I think that a sense of religion creates morality in people, a will to do good and the desire to improve upon one's spiritual health. That is as much as I am currently able to define religious.
I call myself a Hermeticist, which I think is like Christian Pluralism without a major. To me religion is a sense of the divine, something (a force or energy) beyond the realm of human understanding that guides and protects, teaches and disciplines and inspires people to achieve. I think that a sense of religion creates morality in people, a will to do good and the desire to improve upon one's spiritual health. That is as much as I am currently able to define religious.
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Suresh Gupta
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Religious
capt_buzzard wrote: What do you say to those who have no faith and do not believe?
I will say that they are welcome to their belief of having no faith and not believing.
I will say that they are welcome to their belief of having no faith and not believing.
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Suresh Gupta
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Religious
koan wrote: ..........To me religion is a sense of the divine, something (a force or energy) beyond the realm of human understanding that guides and protects, teaches and disciplines and inspires people to achieve. I think that a sense of religion creates morality in people, a will to do good and the desire to improve upon one's spiritual health. That is as much as I am currently able to define religious.
What more you will be defining? I feel that you have said it all and rightly too.
What more you will be defining? I feel that you have said it all and rightly too.
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Suresh Gupta
- Posts: 1172
- Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:29 pm
Religious
Ted wrote: .......Being a Christian does not mean that I have to deny the validity of the other faiths. That would be unchristian as far as I am concerned. What it means to the Christian is that we see in Jesus the decisive manifestation of God. God has shown us the way in this person. This does not mean it is the only manifestation..........
No one can disagree with you.
No one can disagree with you.
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A Karenina
- Posts: 968
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 am
Religious
Ted wrote: Jesus demonstrated quite clearly that God's love and grace are unconditional. The minute you add rules and proviso's it is no longer unconditional. Of course there is the imperative as per above but any decent human being would already know that. As the scriptures say God has written the laws in all hearts.
Ah! This precisely what I think, too. It doesn't matter what terminology a person uses to define spiritual things, it doesn't matter how they worship, or what their traditions are. What matters is how you follow what you already know deep inside of you.
If we cling to the rules then we completely miss the point. If we search, question, and dig for understanding, then we will find it somewhere in our own hearts and minds. If we constantly work towards doing more of what we know to be true (or right), then we're fulfilling our own purpose.
Clint, I hope you are reading this. I know you are somewhat angry with me and have closed yourself to what I say - but Ted has phrased it much better than I have. Perhaps you are willing to listen to him. It's not an effort to change your point of view, but an effort to make other points of view more understandable.
Questioning is good. Many of the things in the bible can be defended through logic and reason outside of the words of the bible. But not everything can be; things like racism, prejudice, judgement, intolerance...
Ah! This precisely what I think, too. It doesn't matter what terminology a person uses to define spiritual things, it doesn't matter how they worship, or what their traditions are. What matters is how you follow what you already know deep inside of you.
If we cling to the rules then we completely miss the point. If we search, question, and dig for understanding, then we will find it somewhere in our own hearts and minds. If we constantly work towards doing more of what we know to be true (or right), then we're fulfilling our own purpose.
Clint, I hope you are reading this. I know you are somewhat angry with me and have closed yourself to what I say - but Ted has phrased it much better than I have. Perhaps you are willing to listen to him. It's not an effort to change your point of view, but an effort to make other points of view more understandable.
Questioning is good. Many of the things in the bible can be defended through logic and reason outside of the words of the bible. But not everything can be; things like racism, prejudice, judgement, intolerance...
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle
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capt_buzzard
- Posts: 5557
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm
Religious
A Karenina wrote: Ah! This precisely what I think, too. It doesn't matter what terminology a person uses to define spiritual things, it doesn't matter how they worship, or what their traditions are. What matters is how you follow what you already know deep inside of you.
If we cling to the rules then we completely miss the point. If we search, question, and dig for understanding, then we will find it somewhere in our own hearts and minds. If we constantly work towards doing more of what we know to be true (or right), then we're fulfilling our own purpose.
Clint, I hope you are reading this. I know you are somewhat angry with me and have closed yourself to what I say - but Ted has phrased it much better than I have. Perhaps you are willing to listen to him. It's not an effort to change your point of view, but an effort to make other points of view more understandable.
Questioning is good. Many of the things in the bible can be defended through logic and reason outside of the words of the bible. But not everything can be; things like racism, prejudice, judgement, intolerance...
Good Gal
If we cling to the rules then we completely miss the point. If we search, question, and dig for understanding, then we will find it somewhere in our own hearts and minds. If we constantly work towards doing more of what we know to be true (or right), then we're fulfilling our own purpose.
Clint, I hope you are reading this. I know you are somewhat angry with me and have closed yourself to what I say - but Ted has phrased it much better than I have. Perhaps you are willing to listen to him. It's not an effort to change your point of view, but an effort to make other points of view more understandable.
Questioning is good. Many of the things in the bible can be defended through logic and reason outside of the words of the bible. But not everything can be; things like racism, prejudice, judgement, intolerance...
Good Gal
Religious
For far too long it has been stressed that being a Christian is both exclusive and about following a set of beliefs and dogma and doctrine. What many scholars have come to realize is that this is not what Jesus was about. His main message was aout the immanent appearence of the Kingdom of God beginning here or earth and continuing into eternity.
The problem as I see it and as many scholars see it is that the traditional paradigm is based on a literal interpretation of the Bible and fear, fear of the judgement and going to hell. This of course does not reflect the true message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Modern scholars have come to realize this.
Jesus message was about the establishment of the Kingdom of God. This was and is to be a kingdom where God rules not man. It was to be an egalitarian society that was based on justice; politacal, economic, social and personal justice. This was to include distributive justice where we did not have the situation of the rich getting richer and the poor poorer. It contained no domination system.
If we read the Beatitudes and Matt 25 as welll as Acts 10 and a host of others we come to realize that being a Christian is accepting what is already true; that God loves us and that his love and grace are unconditional and living within that spirit. It is about developing and living a transforming relationship with the Risen Lord or God if one is not a Christian. It is not about beliefs or dogma or doctrine. It is about a relationship.
The above mentioned passages clearly show us that it is about this relationship and the creation of a society where God rules: God judges the heart, the movtivation if you will, all who do what is right and love God, who has a thousand names. It is about fighting the dominations system and fighting for an egalitarian society where all live without fear, hunger, loneliness, lack of companionship, lack of resources. To quote Marx, " To each as he needs and from each according to what he can give. Unfortunately Marxism doesn't work. If we read the book of Acts we see in fact that the early church tries this but for some reason it failed.
Some will say this is impossible. It may be but we are mandated to try to work towars such a society. In time it will happen. There are many Christian Communities around the world that have come close to this model. Though it is a struggle it is worth it for the total benefit of mankind which is of course God's man cause.
Christians do not have the hot line upstairs. What we do have is for us the decisive revelation of God in the very human Yeshua of Nazareth.
Those of the fundamentalist persuasion will say that this totally ignores the threat of hell etc. That is negative and is not part of the uncondition love and grace of God. There are imperatives, of course. We must develop the transforming relationship and live within it. As for judgement, we are clearly told in the Bible that we are to leave that up to God. Let us therefore get on with it and leave the rest up to God.
Any faith based on fear is not a respectable or true faith. It is a charade and nothing less.
I will address missionary work in another post later on.
May the peace of Christ go with each of you at this season of the year.
Ted :-6
The problem as I see it and as many scholars see it is that the traditional paradigm is based on a literal interpretation of the Bible and fear, fear of the judgement and going to hell. This of course does not reflect the true message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Modern scholars have come to realize this.
Jesus message was about the establishment of the Kingdom of God. This was and is to be a kingdom where God rules not man. It was to be an egalitarian society that was based on justice; politacal, economic, social and personal justice. This was to include distributive justice where we did not have the situation of the rich getting richer and the poor poorer. It contained no domination system.
If we read the Beatitudes and Matt 25 as welll as Acts 10 and a host of others we come to realize that being a Christian is accepting what is already true; that God loves us and that his love and grace are unconditional and living within that spirit. It is about developing and living a transforming relationship with the Risen Lord or God if one is not a Christian. It is not about beliefs or dogma or doctrine. It is about a relationship.
The above mentioned passages clearly show us that it is about this relationship and the creation of a society where God rules: God judges the heart, the movtivation if you will, all who do what is right and love God, who has a thousand names. It is about fighting the dominations system and fighting for an egalitarian society where all live without fear, hunger, loneliness, lack of companionship, lack of resources. To quote Marx, " To each as he needs and from each according to what he can give. Unfortunately Marxism doesn't work. If we read the book of Acts we see in fact that the early church tries this but for some reason it failed.
Some will say this is impossible. It may be but we are mandated to try to work towars such a society. In time it will happen. There are many Christian Communities around the world that have come close to this model. Though it is a struggle it is worth it for the total benefit of mankind which is of course God's man cause.
Christians do not have the hot line upstairs. What we do have is for us the decisive revelation of God in the very human Yeshua of Nazareth.
Those of the fundamentalist persuasion will say that this totally ignores the threat of hell etc. That is negative and is not part of the uncondition love and grace of God. There are imperatives, of course. We must develop the transforming relationship and live within it. As for judgement, we are clearly told in the Bible that we are to leave that up to God. Let us therefore get on with it and leave the rest up to God.
Any faith based on fear is not a respectable or true faith. It is a charade and nothing less.
I will address missionary work in another post later on.
May the peace of Christ go with each of you at this season of the year.
Ted :-6
Religious
Christian missionaries over the years have done a lot of harm, albeit well intentioned. However they have done a great deal of harm: destroyed cultures, called into question valid faiths, labelled perfectly civilized folks as pagans, wrecked families in using residential schools, divided families by raiding then to acquire converts etc.
Christians ought not to be sending out their strategic raiding teams to lure others away from their faith. They may seek out those of no faith, with caution, to try to offer them a better lifestyle.
Generally missionaries should be going into their "mission fields" to make this planet a better place to live for all folks. I can guarantee that if some of those folks see the Christian as different and positive they will ask what makes the difference. They they can explain their faith, without demeaning the other's faith. If they see by our life and love that we have something to offer they will seek it out. They are there to feed the hungry, care for the sick, enable technology to supply better water and sewerage etc, to give hope of a better future and to comfort the sick and the dying. They are not their to raid another faith. That is wrong, completely.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Christians ought not to be sending out their strategic raiding teams to lure others away from their faith. They may seek out those of no faith, with caution, to try to offer them a better lifestyle.
Generally missionaries should be going into their "mission fields" to make this planet a better place to live for all folks. I can guarantee that if some of those folks see the Christian as different and positive they will ask what makes the difference. They they can explain their faith, without demeaning the other's faith. If they see by our life and love that we have something to offer they will seek it out. They are there to feed the hungry, care for the sick, enable technology to supply better water and sewerage etc, to give hope of a better future and to comfort the sick and the dying. They are not their to raid another faith. That is wrong, completely.
Shalom
Ted :-6
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Suresh Gupta
- Posts: 1172
- Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:29 pm
Religious
Ted wrote: ......ought not to be sending out their strategic raiding teams to lure others away from their faith. They may seek out those of no faith, with caution, to try to offer them a better lifestyle.
Generally missionaries should be going into their "mission fields" to make this planet a better place to live for all folks. I can guarantee that if some of those folks see the Christian as different and positive they will ask what makes the difference. They they can explain their faith, without demeaning the other's faith. If they see by our life and love that we have something to offer they will seek it out. They are there to feed the hungry, care for the sick, enable technology to supply better water and sewerage etc, to give hope of a better future and to comfort the sick and the dying. They are not their to raid another faith. That is wrong, completely........
I wish to congratulate you on your sincere and thought provoking posts.
Generally missionaries should be going into their "mission fields" to make this planet a better place to live for all folks. I can guarantee that if some of those folks see the Christian as different and positive they will ask what makes the difference. They they can explain their faith, without demeaning the other's faith. If they see by our life and love that we have something to offer they will seek it out. They are there to feed the hungry, care for the sick, enable technology to supply better water and sewerage etc, to give hope of a better future and to comfort the sick and the dying. They are not their to raid another faith. That is wrong, completely........
I wish to congratulate you on your sincere and thought provoking posts.