More on Pepper Spraying

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:39 pm

A good piece. Agree? Disagree?

UC Davis Pepper-Spray Incident Reveals Weakness Up Top | Matt Taibbi | Rolling Stone

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:52 pm

Agree

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:05 pm

Agree.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:34 am

Agree.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:51 am

BS. You don't want pepper sprayed, obey police orders and move your ass. Simple as that.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:59 am

And damn well better have your papers in order too, right?

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:10 am

BS. You don't want pepper sprayed, obey police orders and move your ass. Simple as that.

And to hell with the rights of the citizen to peaceful protest?

I don't know your laws well enough, but what right do the police have to tell the students to disperse when they are not breaking the law in any way that I am aware of. Or are you not allowed to gather in groups any more? (I've got a feeling we now have a law allowing the police to disperse groups of more than three, but I don't know if it was actually made law and/or is being ignored. Anyone know?)

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:19 am

Clodhopper;1376663 wrote: And to hell with the rights of the citizen to peaceful protest?

I don't know your laws well enough, but what right do the police have to tell the students to disperse when they are not breaking the law in any way that I am aware of. Or are you not allowed to gather in groups any more? (I've got a feeling we now have a law allowing the police to disperse groups of more than three, but I don't know if it was actually made law and/or is being ignored. Anyone know?)
I'm having this conversation in another forum. Local statutes sometimes requires permits for assembling. Also, parks have hours of operation and prohibitions against camping. The sitting on the sidewalk thing blocks traffic.

None of that is reason to pepper-spray non-violent protesters.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:24 am

None of that is reason to pepper-spray non-violent protesters.

Absobloodylutely.

It's also really stupid. If you deny citizens the safety valve of PEACEFUL protest, what options do protestors have other than slinking back home and saying the Govt and Police can do anything they want...?

Violent protest?

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:28 am

How stupid do you have to be to be a college student these days? If a few dozen heavily armed cops told me to haul ass outta there, I'd be all ass and elbows getting outta there. But, I was never a college student.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:32 am

hoppy;1376667 wrote: How stupid do you have to be to be a college student these days? If a few dozen heavily armed cops told me to haul ass outta there, I'd be all ass and elbows getting outta there. But, I was never a college student.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

~ Thomas Jefferson

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:37 am

Accountable;1376670 wrote: When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

~ Thomas Jefferson

Those old sayings were fine, in their time. We ain't fighting the British with flintlock muskets anymore. Even when we were, both sides used torture and abusive methods on each other.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:37 am

These college students aren't pussies, and they're actually quite clever to boot. This was an intentional showdown most likely due to the surprise "evictions" in paramilitary garb which recently took place around the country.

Yeah, i know, true to all those John Wayne type movies, the biggest and baddest should always win, but this isn't a John Wayne western, this is real life. Get out more.

The parents of these young people must be proud and pleased.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:43 am

How stupid do you have to be to be a college student these days? If a few dozen heavily armed cops told me to haul ass outta there, I'd be all ass and elbows getting outta there. But, I was never a college student.

College students tend to be quite idealistic and believe in things like standing up for important principles. Didn't much of the anti-Vietnam movement begin on college campuses, not to mention equal rights?

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:46 am

Ahso!;1376673 wrote: These college students aren't pussies, and they're actually quite clever to boot. This was an intentional showdown most likely due to the surprise "evictions" in paramilitary garb which recently took place around the country.

Yeah, i know, true to all those John Wayne type movies, the biggest and baddest should always win, but this isn't a John Wayne western, this is real life. Get out more.

The parents of these young people must be proud and pleased.

Oh, yes. Be proud your brat can't follow orders. Be proud he/she stood up to authority and got the bejabbers beat outta them. Be proud when you bail 'em outta jail. Be proud your brat is now in college and know all his/her rights and everything else you can think of.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:54 am

hoppy;1376675 wrote: Oh, yes. Be proud your brat can't follow orders. Be proud he/she stood up to authority and got the bejabbers beat outta them. Be proud when you bail 'em outta jail. Be proud your brat is now in college and know all his/her rights and everything else you can think of.These young people have obviously gotten along just fine, look at where they've worked their way to. They've had the confidence to do that and one reason is probably because they weren't raised by parents who thought of them or referred to them as "brats".

Parenting is no easy job and many fail at it.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:56 am

hoppy;1376675 wrote: Oh, yes. Be proud your brat can't follow orders. Be proud he/she stood up to authority and got the bejabbers beat outta them. Be proud when you bail 'em outta jail. Be proud your brat is now in college and know all his/her rights and everything else you can think of.
Be proud that your brat is now an adult, able to distinguish right and wrong, and with the backbone to stand for what he believes in. Be proud that your brat doesn't cower just because a guy in uniform is tired of dealing with him.

Damn right be proud. It's that spirit that keeps your sorry ass free while you sit in your house letting others do the heavy lifting for you.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:08 am

Accountable;1376678 wrote: Be proud that your brat is now an adult, able to distinguish right and wrong, and with the backbone to stand for what he believes in. Be proud that your brat doesn't cower just because a guy in uniform is tired of dealing with him.

Damn right be proud. It's that spirit that keeps your sorry ass free while you sit in your house letting others do the heavy lifting for you.

I am proud of my brats. Two of 'em have a total of 40 years in the military. While other's brats were in college demonstrating their "rights" mine were fighting for their lives in shitholes like Iraq, Afghanistan, Somolia and other armpits of the world.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:13 am

hoppy;1376680 wrote: I am proud of my brats. Two of 'em have a total of 40 years in the military. While other's brats were in college demonstrating their "rights" mine were fighting for their lives in shitholes like Iraq, Afghanistan, Somolia and other armpits of the world.
I'm betting that if a cop told them to stand down when they were doing what they believed to be right, they wouldn't "be all ass and elbows getting outta there."

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:15 am

I am proud of my brats. Two of 'em have a total of 40 years in the military. While other's brats were in college demonstrating their "rights" mine were fighting for their lives in shitholes like Iraq, Afghanistan, Somolia and other armpits of the world.

What have your kids been fighting FOR? The right of the police to pepper spray peaceful protestors; or to protect the Rights and Freedom of the American people, and hence the right of the students to peaceful protest?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:17 am

hoppy;1376680 wrote: I am proud of my brats. Two of 'em have a total of 40 years in the military. While other's brats were in college demonstrating their "rights" mine were fighting for their lives in shitholes like Iraq, Afghanistan, Somolia and other armpits of the world.Thanks for making my 'confidence' point.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:21 am

Accountable;1376682 wrote: I'm betting that if a cop told them to stand down when they were doing what they believed to be right, they wouldn't "be all ass and elbows getting outta there."

They know enough to respect authority. They know when to hold and when to fold, to borrow poker terms.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:24 am

Clodhopper;1376684 wrote: What have your kids been fighting FOR? The right of the police to pepper spray peaceful protestors; or to protect the Rights and Freedom of the American people, and hence the right of the students to peaceful protest?

I guess they were fighting so your brats could stupidly resist law and order, riot and run amok, then whine about the treatment they got for doing so.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:25 am

hoppy;1376687 wrote: They know enough to respect authority. They know when to hold and when to fold, to borrow poker terms.True. They know to 'hold' or 'fold' when they're told or trained to, not when they decide. That's not respect, that's mindless obedience.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:31 am

Ahso!;1376691 wrote: True. They know to 'hold' or 'fold' when they're told or trained to, not when they decide. That's not respect, that's mindless obedience.

You sound like a product of one of those "liberal factory" colleges.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:31 am

I guess they were fighting so your brats could stupidly resist law and order, riot and run amok, then whine about the treatment they got for doing so.

I don't have kids, so that seems unlikely. But I'm glad they were fighting for the Rights and Freedom of the American and British people, including the right to protest. I'm just sorry you don't seem so proud of it.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:34 am

hoppy;1376692 wrote: You sound like a product of one of those "liberal factory" colleges.Ah, so you're opposed to higher education!

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:54 am

hoppy;1376690 wrote: I guess they were fighting so your brats could stupidly resist law and order, riot and run amok, then whine about the treatment they got for doing so.Whine? I haven't heard anything about the protesters themselves complaining about the treatment they got. Can you give me a link to this "whining"?

Meanwhile, a little rioting and running amok for your viewing pleasure:

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:56 am

I used to think pretty much like Hoppy. That was way back when the police were there to serve and protect their communities. Not protect and increase their powers over their communities.

If they had accessed the situation as protectors of the community instead of enforcers of the community maybe they would have dealt with it differently. They can go in thinking that the protesters were not harming anybody or a threat to anybody so let them have their say. Or they can go in confrontational, demanding, overbearing and self empowered, then pepper spray the very same people they were hired to protect and serve.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:50 am

YZGI;1376696 wrote: I used to think pretty much like Hoppy. That was way back when the police were there to serve and protect their communities. Not protect and increase their powers over their communities.

If they had accessed the situation as protectors of the community instead of enforcers of the community maybe they would have dealt with it differently. They can go in thinking that the protesters were not harming anybody or a threat to anybody so let them have their say. Or they can go in confrontational, demanding, overbearing and self empowered, then pepper spray the very same people they were hired to protect and serve.

Aren't the police "law enforcement officers"?

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:53 am

Ahso!;1376694 wrote: Ah, so you're opposed to higher education!

The only thing "high" about liberal students is their state of intoxication.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:07 am

hoppy;1376698 wrote: Aren't the police "law enforcement officers"?

Sure they are. But shouldn't the enforcement of the law be equitable to the crime being committed?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:08 am

hoppy;1376699 wrote: The only thing "high" about liberal students is their state of intoxication.Now there's a subject you're an authority on.

Look, this conversation has apparently exceeded your ability to keep up. Perhaps you just need some time to think rather than react.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:12 am

YZGI;1376700 wrote: Sure they are. But shouldn't the enforcement of the law be equitable to the crime being committed?The thing is, we can be confident that lobbyists as well as certain lawmakers are busy at work crafting new laws to be voted on which make legal activities illegal and create more criminals out of our citizens.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:21 am

Ahso!;1376691 wrote: True. They know to 'hold' or 'fold' when they're told or trained to, not when they decide. That's not respect, that's mindless obedience.

So, you think you should decide which laws you'll obey or not?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:34 am

hoppy;1376699 wrote: The only thing "high" about liberal students is their state of intoxication.#

I guess they were fighting so your brats could stupidly resist law and order, riot and run amok, then whine about the treatment they got for doing so.

I suppose the irony of your sons defending a liberal democracy is completely lost on you

posted by hoppy

Those old sayings were fine, in their time. We ain't fighting the British with flintlock muskets anymore. Even when we were, both sides used torture and abusive methods on each other.

Oh, yes. Be proud your brat can't follow orders. Be proud he/she stood up to authority and got the bejabbers beat outta them. Be proud when you bail 'em outta jail. Be proud your brat is now in college and know all his/her rights and everything else you can think of.

What a pity more of you colonials didn't think like that in 1776, just think as well as better spelling you might have had universal healthcare.

So do you expect your sons to follow all orders they are given regardless or to have the integrity to disobey an illegal order?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:38 am

hoppy;1376704 wrote: So, you think you should decide which laws you'll obey or not?Every person makes those decisions constantly, don't they. It's the basis on which those decisions are made that becomes important.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:43 am

hoppy;1376704 wrote: So, you think you should decide which laws you'll obey or not?
Of course. Don't you?

Surely you don't claim to obey every law, do you?

But the issue isn't about obeying or disobeying a law. The issue is the police response to the disobedience.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:45 am

gmc;1376705 wrote: What a pity more of you colonials didn't think like that in 1776, just think as well as better spelling you might have had universal healthcare.
:yh_rotfl

Down here in the deep South, kilt mean you done used lethal force already.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:00 am

Clodhopper;1376693 wrote: I don't have kids, so that seems unlikely. But I'm glad they were fighting for the Rights and Freedom of the American and British people, including the right to protest. I'm just sorry you don't seem so proud of it.

I am proud of my kids and what they did. I'm not proud of what YOUR president is doing to MY country though.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:10 am

Ahso!;1376706 wrote: Every person makes those decisions constantly, don't they. It's the basis on which those decisions are made that becomes important.

What a dumbass attitude.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:00 am

hoppy;1376711 wrote: I am proud of my kids and what they did. I'm not proud of what YOUR president is doing to MY country though.:yh_giggle

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:28 pm

hoppy;1376711 wrote: I am proud of my kids and what they did. I'm not proud of what YOUR president is doing to MY country though.

Not his president clodhopper isn't an american, In the UK we take for granted the right to protest any policeman acting like that here would cause outrage. In france, germany Portugal spain they have riot police as do we but generally they don't attack peaceful demonstrators, well actually they do but it's rather frowned upon. we tend to refer to uphold the law, law enforcement rather suggests the people don't have any say in the matter and need to be kept in their place.

In the UK we take for granted we have a right to protest and demonstrate although sadly it seems only rioting makes the government take notice. Same in france, spain, greece portugal, italy even the germans have learned not to just do what they are told. My country right or wrong is not an argument that gets very much credence in Europe there are still people alive who remember what happens when you just follow orders without question.

If you want to kid yourself your sons being in irag and Afghanistan has anything to do with defending america from terrorists and preserving your freedom that's your right, other people have the right to disagree and make their displeasure known and try to get you to understand as well. There seems to be quite a lot of veterans involved in the occupy wall street movement I suppose you think they are wishy washy liberals as well. Soldiers and police who follow orders without question have no place in a free society, everyone is accountable for what they do. If a law is unjust and you believe you have no right to challenge it and that no one should ever question authority I think you kind of missed the point of the american revolution. If everybody thought like you back then you would live in a very different place.

If you want to live in a country where 1% of the population accumulate all the wealth while your countrymen lose their jobs and homes get embroiled in wars that don't need to be fought and best of all reduce taxes so they can keep more of it you really shouldn't be surprised if people want to demonstrate against it. The question is would you open fire on them or accept they have a right to disagree? Which side of the barrier would you stand, will you defend someone's right to argue with you or authority or will you make them shut up?

It's interesting, wonder what will happen.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:27 pm

I wonder if hoppy is being deliberately provocative like spot is wont to do.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:10 pm

SnoozeAgain;1376748 wrote: I wander if hoppy is being deliberately provocative like spot is wont to do.

Well, don't wander too far.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:32 pm

Theres not much I can add to this.

"Because of the countless decisions we made in years past to undermine our own attitudes toward the rule of law and individual rights. Every time we looked the other way when the president asked for the right to detain people without trials, to engage in warrantless searches, to eavesdrop on private citizens without even a judge knowing about it, we made it harder to answer the question: What is it we’re actually defending?

In another time, maybe, we might have been able to argue that we were using force to defend the principles of modern Western civilization, that we were "spreading democracy."

Instead, we completely shat upon every principle we ever stood for, stooping to torture and assassination and extrajudicial detention."

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:14 pm

hoppy;1376760 wrote: Well, don't wander too far.

I guess that answers my question.

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:31 am

Accountable;1376695 wrote: Whine? I haven't heard anything about the protesters themselves complaining about the treatment they got. Can you give me a link to this "whining"?

Meanwhile, a little rioting and running amok for your viewing pleasure:

I am so deeply touched by this protest. I've been saying for a long time that the best weapon we have against the oppressors is shame. When you look them straight in the eyes and say nothing they hear all the things their soul tells them they did wrong.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:36 am

pepper spray this lot when they get to the states

Naked ambition: Ukrainian topless protests go global — RT

Go on I dare you.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:45 am

link doesn't work.