The poor woman's just in mourning - NOT!

[Accountable]

I guess we each mourn in our own way. :rolleyes:



WASHINGTON(AP) Cindy Sheehan, the California woman who has used her son's death in Iraq to spur the anti-war movement, was arrested Monday while protesting outside the White House.

Sheehan and several dozen other protesters sat down on the sidewalk after marching along the pedestrian walkway on Pennsylvania Avenue. Police warned them three times that they were breaking the law by failing to move along, then began making arrests.

Sheehan, 48, was the first taken into custody. She stood up and was handcuffed, then led to a police vehicle while protesters chanted, "The whole world is watching."

Others who were arrested also cooperated with police. Sgt. Scott Fear, spokesman for the U.S. Park Police, said they would be charged with demonstrating without a permit, which is a misdemeanor.

Park Police Sgt. L.J. McNally said Sheehan and the others would be taken to a processing center where they would be fingerprinted and photographed, then given a ticket and released. The process would take several hours, he said.

[Bez]

She would do better doing voluntary work in one of the rehabilitation centers for injured soldiers if she has so much time on her hands.....these people make my blood boil.

[gmc]

posted by bez

She would do better doing voluntary work in one of the rehabilitation centers for injured soldiers if she has so much time on her hands.....these people make my blood boil.

Why? Would you rather the US was a country where people could not protest. If criticising your government gets you arrested ah well on second thoughts perhaps I shouldn't comment on this aspect of US politics.

How about the UK and the G8 summit, 250,000 marching peacefully to make a point did they annoy you as well? Maybe you didn't hear about that as the media concentrated on the few nutters that tried to start a riot in Stirling. After policing old firm matches it must have felt like a holiday outing to the scottish police.

The right to protest and demonstrate is a fundamental part of our traditional freedoms hard won over the years. I'd worry more about the govt trying to stop it.

Labour party conference-Iraq and Tony Blair are not on the agenda, probably two of the most important issues to be sorted but TB doesn't want it mentioned. What is depressing is that his party keep their mouths shut, didn't much like some aspects of old labour but no one could call them sycophantic.

[Accountable]

The freedom to protest does not prevent the annoyance with same. (I think that's what I want to say)



I will protect every pain in the rump protester's right to say whatever stupid thing they want to say, as well as the ones I agree with. These people were looking for a way to make even more waves. What better way than to do something prohibited while protesting? That way it looks like the cops are nazis and she looks like a poor unprotected protester. Bah!



I also have the right to react in my own fashion. That's the beauty of freedom.

[Clint]

Why isn’t Cindy being charged for her role in leading others to break the law? It seems they plan civil disobedience, carry it out and never pay the price for breaking laws.

She can protest all she wants. I wore a uniform for a long time so she can. I think she’s exposing the idiocy of her position and the people who have joined her. For that reason I hope she gets to protest a lot.

[Accountable]

EEeeeeexactly! They are like mold, they spread quickly if you cover them up and ignore them. The more you expose them to light, the faster they fade away.

[ubetta]

Shame of this whole thing is that no good music is coming out of it. At least in the 60's-70's we got great songs.

[observer1]

Clint wrote: Why isn’t Cindy being charged for her role in leading others to break the law? It seems they plan civil disobedience, carry it out and never pay the price for breaking laws.

She can protest all she wants. I wore a uniform for a long time so she can. I think she’s exposing the idiocy of her position and the people who have joined her. For that reason I hope she gets to protest a lot.


My father wore a uniform also for much of my childhood life. He, too, is opposed to this "war".

"King George" worshippers make my blood boil.

[Accountable]

observer1 wrote: My father wore a uniform also for much of my childhood life. He, too, is opposed to this "war".



"King George" worshippers make my blood boil.
But we're there now. I don't agree on how we got there, but we're there. Now what?

[observer1]

We should be spending our time, resources, & money on the REAL perpetrator... Osama Bin Laden. We're losing too many troops being where we don't belong. Here's an idea... BRING THEM HOME!

[Clint]

observer1 wrote: My father wore a uniform also for much of my childhood life. He, too, is opposed to this "war".

"King George" worshippers make my blood boil.
"King George" haters have confused the issues. They hate the fact that they lost the election so they hate anything he does. I'm no fan of this President. I do, however, look beyond my nose and political jealosy to try to understand the global issues that have us doing what we are doing today. Emotional, knee jerk reactions to the ugliness of war will cause our downfall if those emotions take over.

[Accountable]

observer1 wrote: We should be spending our time, resources, & money on the REAL perpetrator... Osama Bin Laden. We're losing too many troops being where we don't belong. Here's an idea... BRING THEM HOME!
Just chuck it and go? Don't we have a responsibility to those we'd be leaving behind? That's supposedly how the whole Osama vs USA started in the first place, setting them up in Afghanistan against the Soviets and in Iraq against Hussein after the Gulf War.

[Accountable]

Clint wrote: "King George" haters have confused the issues. They hate the fact that they lost the election so they hate anything he does. I'm no fan of this President. I do, however, look beyond my nose and political jealosy to try to understand the global issues that have us doing what we are doing today. Emotional, knee jerk reactions to the ugliness of war will cause our downfall if those emotions take over.
Define downfall, please.

[Jives]

I'm right on the fence with this one. Clint is absolutely right in saying that we should take a look at the big picture. I understand perfectly that once you start a mess, you damn well better finish it.

On the other hand, Vietnam devloved into a miasmic swamp that we slogged through for 15 years. I have no wish to repeat that mistake.

As for good old Cindy....She's grandstanding and she knows it. Some powerful anti-war groups have gotten a hold of her and they are playing her for everything she's worth.

The funny part? Look at the smile on her face. She's loving every minute of it. She strikes me as the kind of person that always wanted to be famous and now she's getting her 15 minute's worth in spades. I don't take her seriously at all anymore, since I know that every word that comes from her mouth is scripted by someone else.

[observer1]

It has nothing to do with jealousy. Look at his ratings. Even people who were staunch Bush backers are turning the other way now. You can also best believe if it was Florida who was devastated by these terrible hurricanes, help would've been there IMMEDIATELY. I didn't think badly of Bush during the 9/11 period. But he's made a mockery of the whole situation.

Just for the record... I am a registered REPUBLICAN. I vote for the person I think will do the best job. That's why I don't like him. And I stood in line for 2 1/2 hours during the last election to get him out. At least he didn't win my state.

[Accountable]

observer1 wrote: It has nothing to do with jealousy. Look at his ratings. Even people who were staunch Bush backers are turning the other way now. You can also best believe if it was Florida who was devastated by these terrible hurricanes, help would've been there IMMEDIATELY. I didn't think badly of Bush during the 9/11 period. But he's made a mockery of the whole situation.



Just for the record... I am a registered REPUBLICAN. I vote for the person I think will do the best job. That's why I don't like him. And I stood in line for 2 1/2 hours during the last election to get him out. At least he didn't win my state.
Rather than devolving into a Bush debate, could you address my question?

[observer1]

I'm not devolving into anything. Didn't see a question. I'm out.

[Accountable]

Accountable wrote: Just chuck it and go? Don't we have a responsibility to those we'd be leaving behind? That's supposedly how the whole Osama vs USA started in the first place, setting them up in Afghanistan against the Soviets and in Iraq against Hussein after the Gulf War.
Here it is again. I hope you don't think I'm trying to trap you. I disagree with both you and Clint. I really, really want to find a viable solution.

[observer1]

Accountable wrote: Just chuck it and go? Don't we have a responsibility to those we'd be leaving behind? That's supposedly how the whole Osama vs USA started in the first place, setting them up in Afghanistan against the Soviets and in Iraq against Hussein after the Gulf War.


Oh, you mean these questions? Well as far as chuck it & go... chuck what shouldn't have been started in the first place? And as for as having a responsibility... to WHOM?? When have they aided us? Didn't we supply arms to the country under Reagan to fight Iran?? Who are we exactly for & against here??

No more comments from me on this subject.

[Accountable]

observer1 wrote: Oh, you mean these questions? Well as far as chuck it & go... chuck what shouldn't have been started in the first place? And as for as having a responsibility... to WHOM?? When have they aided us? Didn't we supply arms to the country under Reagan to fight Iran?? Who are we exactly for & against here??



No more comments from me on this subject.
I don't understand it, but certainly support your decision.



I'll respond just in case someone else wants to jump in. I agree we shouldn't have gone in Iraq ostensibly to enforce UN sanctions any more than we should go in someone else's house to spank their kids.



Woulda Coulda Shoulda Hadda Oughta.



But we did.



Now we're there. We toppled the gov't (yes I know we put it there in the first place) and attracted foreign terrorists. Don't we have an obligation to leave the citizenry safe? Would simply leaving do just that? It might. I'm not sure. That's why I want to continue this conversation.

[observer1]

IMO, we don't really have an obligation to that country. Why are we losing so many of our troops? And please don't anyone say I'm against our troops & what they're doing. As I said, I grew up military. I love my country & I'm proud of my parents & brother for serving it. I support our troops 200%. They're just doing what they're told to do. We were supposed to be going into Iraq because Saddam SUPPOSEDLY had WMD. None were ever found. Saddam has been captured. A new government's in place. It's kind of like letting your 40-year-old child keep living with you because you're afraid they can't make it in the big bad world.

[Clint]

Accountable wrote: Define downfall, please.
In the world today, not being able to wage a war and stick with it until it has been won is an invitation to an invasion. If every time we go to war, we do what we did in Vietnam and what Cindy and her supporters want us to do with this war, we will be telling the world we don’t have the political will to fight a war. Once we have demonstrated that we don’t have the will, some country will see the opportunity and seize it. If we won’t fight because we are too concerned about casualties, it will be our downfall.

[Accountable]

OB1, you're among friends. That doesn't mean I won't ask you to help me understand your positions/opinions, but it does mean I (can't speak for anyone else) won't accuse you of a position unless I can quote you. I think I understand your position, not as let's get on the plane this evening & go, but as it's time to withdraw. Accurate?



Clint wrote: In the world today, not being able to wage a war and stick with it until it has been won is an invitation to an invasion. If every time we go to war, we do what we did in Vietnam and what Cindy and her supporters want us to do with this war, we will be telling the world we don’t have the political will to fight a war. Once we have demonstrated that we don’t have the will, some country will see the opportunity and seize it. If we won’t fight because we are too concerned about casualties, it will be our downfall.


It's not every time, but I understand your point. Invitation to invade whom? Us? Not gonna happen. Invade others? Arguably that's the pot calling the kettle black.

Two things:

Please define "has been won" in your own context.



How is starting a withdrawal now not in harmony with what you said?

[Clint]

Accountable wrote: OB1, you're among friends. That doesn't mean I won't ask you to help me understand your positions/opinions, but it does mean I (can't speak for anyone else) won't accuse you of a position unless I can quote you. I think I understand your position, not as let's get on the plane this evening & go, but as it's time to withdraw. Accurate?





It's not every time, but I understand your point. Invitation to invade whom? Us? Not gonna happen. Invade others? Arguably that's the pot calling the kettle black.

Two things:

Please define "has been won" in your own context.



How is starting a withdrawal now not in harmony with what you said?
A war has not been won until our objectives have been successfully met, which probably means the enemy is unable or unwilling to fight. Another indication it has been won would be that the CIC has reported to the Secretary of Defense that they have accomplished what they were sent to do.

In my view and understanding of the present situation we have not reached a point where a reduction in forces there could be done without increasing the danger to the remaining forces. We can’t just go in, topple the existing government, arrest its leader and leave town. We have a lot of training and augmentation to do before the Iraqis will be able to stand on their own. Frankly, I fear it could take a decade or more to get to the point they are able and willing to go it alone.

[Accountable]

Then at the very least, the Iraqi diplomats should start asking for international assistance so we can tend our own wounds stateside. Otherwise, using your definitions & timelines, I don't see how we can avoid the VietNam label.

[Clint]

Accountable wrote: Then at the very least, the Iraqi diplomats should start asking for international assistance so we can tend our own wounds stateside. Otherwise, using your definitions & timelines, I don't see how we can avoid the VietNam label.
Yup, I think you are right. I hope they are able to find others who are willing to assist them.

[Clint]

REBUILDING IN THE GULF

Most Americans against troop withdrawal

But most Democrats see U.S. forces as occupying army

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: September 27, 2005

1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

Most Americans believe withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq will make things worse in the Middle East nation.

A new Rasmussen Reports survey found just 20 percent believe troop withdrawal will make things better.

More: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=46529

[LilacDragon]

I feel kind of sorry for Cindy - I don't think she understood her son or else she didn't care about his feelings. He obviously felt the need to serve his country or he wouldn't have joined the military to start with.

As far as the war in Iraq, I wouldn't be surprised if the GW's had a conversation when the father was in office about continuing THAT war at a later time. IMO we should have never left Hussein in office the first time we went over there.

How could anyone think that we should just pull out now that we have destroyed the entire structure of a society? We bombed their homes and businesses, arrested or killed their leaders and we should just walk away? Sure, we could use a few more car bombs over here. I can promise you that as a military wife whose husband is serving in the Gulf, I have so few worries that I would love to have to worry about my son's school being bombed or whatever else those terrorists feel the need to target.

I think the will of the Iraqi people was evident on election day. Under threat of car bombs and mortar fire by terrorists, the voter turnout was in the 90 percentile, if I remember correctly. In the U.S. with the only threat being inclement weather, we are lucky if 50 percent of registered voters even bother!

[Clint]

LilacDragon wrote: I feel kind of sorry for Cindy - I don't think she understood her son or else she didn't care about his feelings. He obviously felt the need to serve his country or he wouldn't have joined the military to start with.

As far as the war in Iraq, I wouldn't be surprised if the GW's had a conversation when the father was in office about continuing THAT war at a later time. IMO we should have never left Hussein in office the first time we went over there.

How could anyone think that we should just pull out now that we have destroyed the entire structure of a society? We bombed their homes and businesses, arrested or killed their leaders and we should just walk away? Sure, we could use a few more car bombs over here. I can promise you that as a military wife whose husband is serving in the Gulf, I have so few worries that I would love to have to worry about my son's school being bombed or whatever else those terrorists feel the need to target.

I think the will of the Iraqi people was evident on election day. Under threat of car bombs and mortar fire by terrorists, the voter turnout was in the 90 percentile, if I remember correctly. In the U.S. with the only threat being inclement weather, we are lucky if 50 percent of registered voters even bother!
Thank you. Thank you for what you said and thank you for your sacrifice. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to have your husband in harms way while people are saying what they are saying. Military wives are heroes too.

[LilacDragon]

Clint wrote: Thank you. Thank you for what you said and thank you for your sacrifice. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to have your husband in harms way while people are saying what they are saying. Military wives are heroes too.


Your welcome! And thank you for the warm welcome!

[Accountable]

Big hugs from me as well, Lilac. I served 21 years in the AF and was fortunate never had to go to the big sand box. I proudly salute all who serve. :yh_flag

[observer1]

Clint wrote: Thank you. Thank you for what you said and thank you for your sacrifice. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to have your husband in harms way while people are saying what they are saying. Military wives are heroes too.


Well, thank you for calling my mother a hero Clint. But she also doesn't believe we should be there. Neither does my father. BTW, my mother served our country too.

[Nomad]

Bez wrote: She would do better doing voluntary work in one of the rehabilitation centers for injured soldiers if she has so much time on her hands.....these people make my blood boil.




Why should demonstrators make your blood boil ? Its a great American that stands up to the President of the United States for a cause close to her heart ? My hats off to her.

[Accountable]

I don't see a contradiction with respecting the rights of a citizen to protest and being upset about the protest itself.

[LilacDragon]

Hey, her son thought enough about her right to protest that he gave his life for his country. I have to wonder if she thought about that or if it is all about getting her name/picture in the papers.

[Accountable]

By: Bill O'Reilly for BillOReilly.com

Thursday, Sep 29, 2005It is hard to fathom, but there are Americans who believe that if the USA cuts and runs from Iraq, there will be no negative consequences. The far left is banging the "get out now" drum but, fortunately, the beat is not exactly catching on. While last week's peace demonstration in Washington drew a decent crowd, it was certainly not overwhelming. And few politicians showed up. Instead we heard the noted political scientist Jessica Lange call for U.S. troops to withdraw or she'll be mad.



Read the rest:

http://www.billoreilly.com/currentarticle